www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45674786
No seriously injured. Can't say I've seen many crash into a lagoon before, must be fairly unusual.
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It depends if there is a lagoon, if you go off the Maldives runway you hit the terminal and parked aircraft on one side and the seaplane runway on the other. The seaplane runway would be wet but a softer impact.
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I have always favoured the thought of an overrun into shallow water as a good safety feature. Better than ploughing across the stationary traffic on the M25(LHR) or falling off a cliff at LTN!
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Overran runway on landing. Relatively short strip, 6000'. Adequate for a lightly loaded 737 but not much scope if you land late on a wet surface.
Not that many UK airports where an overrun ends up in water - Liverpool or Dundee perhaps. Leeds is pretty much off a cliff at either end. The Tri-Star that overran there in 1985 ended up with it's tail so far above ground that the escape slides were compromised.
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>> Overran runway on landing. Relatively short strip, 6000'.
Or, BBC says, 'Air Niugini said its Boeing 737-800 had "landed short of the runway"'
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>> Or, BBC says, 'Air Niugini said its Boeing 737-800 had "landed short of the runway"'
Initial reports were of overshoot/overrun but Avherald now reports it as landed short:
avherald.com/h?article=4be42f25&opt=0
If it was a land short very lucky to sustain so little damage.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 28 Sep 18 at 13:45
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Air Niugini press statement " Air Niugini advises that its Boeing 737-800 series aircraft P2 PXE landed short of the runway....."
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you have loads of excuses for over running a runway, the list is much shorter for landing short.
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>>you have loads of excuses for over running a runway, the list is much shorter for landing short.
"I was given the wrong type of ladder."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7VgXfOXx88
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 28 Sep 18 at 15:00
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>> you have loads of excuses for over running a runway, the list is much shorter
>> for landing short.
Happens, or nearly happens, with monotonous regularity though. Two recent examples from Canada. Air Canada A320 crashed at Halifax NS in 2015. Westjet 737 came perilously close to water approaching St Maarten Queen Juliana a couple of years later.
Failure to monitor altitude against distance during poor visibility approach with limited aids.
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aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180928-0
Reliable source of information. Very clear what happened.
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Is one incident worldwide every couple of years “monotonous regularity†? How often is that really, One every 100 million flights?
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>> Is one incident worldwide every couple of years “monotonous regularity†? How often is that
>> really, One every 100 million flights?
Was thinking in terms of "controlled flight into terrain (or water)" during approach as a proportion of accidents.
Flights without incident don't count.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508
Crashed a few minutes after take off. No survivors reported at the moment.
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Just confirmed no survivors.
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Second major accident involving the 737 Max (latest iteration of long running model) from approx 300 deliveries so far. Some similarities to previous crash involving a Lion Air machine in Indonesia. Interim reports on that suggest control problems associated with sensors and software to compensate for effects of MAX engines being physically bigger than those on previous generation.
If similarity is proven then I suspect grounding likely, either by FAA/JAA or voluntarily by airlines.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 10 Mar 19 at 12:34
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>
>> If similarity is proven then I suspect grounding likely, either by FAA/JAA or voluntarily by
>> airlines.
Just seen an aerial shot of the crash site. Its a fairly small but very deep crater, It came down vertically at high velocity. There appears to be much similarity with the Lion Air crash and the anti stall system.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 11 Mar 19 at 22:41
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Several here frequent Pprune - but for those who do not, the following post is well written and highlights some valid concerns. I have not linked because moderation on that site deletes posts frequently and you seem to link to incorrect post.
Originally Posted by Interflug View Post
Engineer here - trying to look at MCAS out of the box...
So they say, one AoA sensor outputting wrong data alone can activate the MCAS erroneously.
If that is so, which engineering workgroup at Boeing could in their sane minds design such a system, that is supposed to save you from a stall but instead:
-decisively flies you into the ground
-on a sunny cloudless day
-with a (except from the AoA sensor) perfectly functioning airplane and engines
-with the same system getting indications for:
positive vertical (upward) speed within normal margins
positive horizontal (forward) speed and acceleration within normal margins-secondary parameters like radar AGL data, GPS groundspeed-last but not least two pilots, able to look out of the window and able to assess AoA visually
Why would an engineer think it is a good idea to implement such a system that ignores all other available data (which indicates nothing like a stall)? Even if you want to take the pilot/human out of the equation, assuming he put the airplane into an attitude that will result in a stall, you still have lots of other available data the system can read, that tells it that you are in fact not stalling and that most likely the AoA sensor is telling you nonsense.
Probably the MCAS subsystem will enter the course books of engineering schools, as a textbook example of AS, artificial stupidity, a system designed to be stupid, when you actually need a smart system.
Or are these engineers disciples of the Church of the AoA sensor, since they believe the one and only AoA sensor never fails?
Someone can enlighten me? What did I overlook?
and that prompted the following answer.
Yes Interflug, very difficult to disagree with you. Quite amazing, not in a good way. I have been flying the 737 off and on since the late 70s then the -200 through to latterly, the NG. I have continually said that the 737 is an old aircraft with bits bolted on over the decades. The ergonomics of the flightdeck are out of date for 2019 with the stab trim cut out switches hid away to the right of the start levers among many counter intuitive switches / system. I thought that the NG was a step too far, let alone the max. I am not going to join in the speculation but it does not look good. Tragic.
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I thought it a bit dodgy that the airplane company so quickly came out and virtually said "nothing to see here.. Move on" .
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>> Not that many UK airports where an overrun ends up in water - Liverpool or
>> Dundee perhaps.
Not forgetting you could get wet at LCY and INV without too much trouble if it went a bit wrong, albeit it wouldn’t be an overrun in the case of Inverness!
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>> Not forgetting you could get wet at LCY and INV without too much trouble if
>> it went a bit wrong, albeit it wouldn’t be an overrun in the case of
>> Inverness!
At GIB you have that option at both ends.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 10 Mar 19 at 20:07
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To say nothing of the windshear...
Tricky landings...
Spent many happy holidays on our sailing boat in Shepherds Marina at the end of the runway watching the civilian and military traffic attempting to get in and out.
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Look at this for a recent approach at GIB, wisely the pilot diverted to mainland Spain!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzo2otTtIM
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>> Look at this for a recent approach at GIB, wisely the pilot diverted to mainland
>> Spain!
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzo2otTtIM
Speculation as to whether the wind over the rock caused that or whether it was pilot induced oscillation. Looks serious enough to warrant AAIB report.
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We’ve been in to Madeira 21 times and luckily have never had an issue like that. Most landing get a clap from the stalls though.
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Most landing get a clap from the stalls though.
>>
I've read of that happening, but of all the flights I've been on I've never heard or seen it myself.
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I have once or twice. Totally embarrassing.
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>> I have once or twice. Totally embarrassing.
>>
Likewise and likewise.
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Landed at Perth WA once (it can be a bit turbulent there), was sat near the door. The Door was opened and an aussie ground handler stuc his head round the door and asked in a loud cheery manner
"G'day, did you land or were you shot down"
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Captain kangaroo will now bounce you to the departure gate.
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A round of applause erupted on landing at Faro (Portugal) last week.Weather and visibility was fine, flight was on time etc etc. I don't get it. I suppose people who don't like flying are spontaneously expressing their relief at landing safely, but it seems to spread so quickly...
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>> A round of applause erupted on landing at Faro (Portugal) last week.Weather and visibility was
>> fine, flight was on time etc etc. I don't get it. I suppose people who
>> don't like flying are spontaneously expressing their relief at landing safely, but it seems to
>> spread so quickly...
>>
This sort of passenger behaviour says more about the passengers, (and the resort location), than pilot skill. Avoid at all costs.
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>>I suppose people who don't like flying are spontaneously expressing their relief at landing safely,
Years ago I was on a flight across the Amazon, a small aircraft - 35 seats or so I suppose, where the storm was so bad that one of the air stewardesses started screaming.
There was a lot of clapping and some cheering when that particular flight safely landed. I probably even joined in.
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>> I have once or twice. Totally embarrassing.
>>
Only experienced that son a small number of US flights mainly Texas ones several years ago. Just assumed it was a funny foreign behaviour like the pilot of one of the flights announcing on commencing takepff run "Here we go, straight as an arrow, only faster"
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>>like the pilot of one of the flights announcing on commencing takeoff run "Here we go, straight as an arrow, only faster"
>>
Some BA crew used to announce at " high" airfields
"For information to those those regular passengers , our take of will take a little longer but that is normal from this airport."
Some nerds routinely time the take off run :-(
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BBC Radio 4 World at One interrupts non step Brexit news to confirm that MAX 8 has been banned from UK airspace by CAA.
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Just reading the same on CAA website.
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>> Just reading the same on CAA website.
Seems to affect all 737MAX versions, not just MAX8, although that is my far most numerous amongst those delivered so far.
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It's ironic, one of Boeings biggest sales pitches is that pilots have full control at all times if they use the yoke, and Airbus pilots do not because they employ the side stick.
Ooopppps
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This is an excellent article, gives an idea of how root cause analysis might not come up with the reason you expect, in this cause being a financial and regulatory reason around crew training and certification.
www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/world/asia/lion-air-plane-crash-pilots.html
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A hand control wheel? How quaint. Even having any mechanical link between the controls and control surfaces is pretty old fashioned. I remember vc10s had hand trim wheels.
I think having one input for something that can automatically move the control surfaces isn't a great idea to say the least.
I wonder how much the 737 has been pushed too far and a clean sheet design might be a better idea.
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This will cost Boeing a bob or two. I wonder if there will be more to come out, a VW style scandal, stallgate?
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I expect the grounding will be for some weeks.
This must have quite some impact on ability to shift passenger numbers. They can't have enough spare planes and trained pilots kicking around to take up the slack surely?
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Proportionally it's not that big yet among those that have bought them. There might be a couple of airlines affected badly but there's plenty of charters knocking about.
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Radio article earlier says that Ryanair is dependant on deliveries of the Max for the expected traffic this coming summer.
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Quite seriously if we crash out of the EU there's going to be quite a few planes in Europe available for short term lease.
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Ryan Air is doing sufficiently well with its current fleet, leases of which will be extended, with the cost pushed onto Boeing.
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>> Ryan Air is doing sufficiently well with its current fleet, leases of which will be
>> extended, with the cost pushed onto Boeing.
I'm sure you're right that they'll manage but their new machines were high-density MAX8-200 versions seating 200+. If they've already been allocated to routes then some re-jigging will be needed.
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Given that almost certainly one of the conditions for recertification of the plane will be pilot familiarisation/training (which boeing tried to avoid) the plane being allowed to fly, and the plane actually being in revenue service are two different timescales.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Mar 19 at 18:47
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aircraft crash in Micronesia - Old Navy
