The UK has no objections to the surviving "Beatles" being sent to the USA and executed.
I wonder if this is a starter to re-introduce the death penalty to the UK after Brexit, after all no one is going to complain too loudly about the "Beatles" being "topped".
Personally, I hope not, the police and CPS have got it so wrong in recent rape cases that one wonders how fair trials would be, as well as the distasteful media circus that would follow as papers would try to gain readership by demonising the accused and making it impossible for a Home Secretary to offer a reprieve etc.
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I'd not thought of it in those terms but the whole issue raises some very worrying questions.
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No appetite for it in parliament so not going to happen.
In this situation I think Javid is doing what he feels is required to ensure they are prosecuted by the merkins, rather than them appearing in UK courts where there are difficulties providing evidence from secret services.
Life without parole in one of these gaffes:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax_prison
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 13:14
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"I wonder if this is a starter to re-introduce the death penalty to the UK after Brexit"
Would they dare to put it to a referendum?
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>>
>> Would they dare to put it to a referendum?
>>
...they'd probably get it through parliament via a "guillotine motion"......
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>> The UK has no objections to the surviving "Beatles" being sent to the USA and
>> executed.
Ok, but they are not being sent from the UK, they are currently in jail in some other lawless part of another lawless country. As it happens they are no longer British, citizenship was revoked.
Not our problem.
>> I wonder if this is a starter to re-introduce the death penalty to the UK
>> after Brexit, after all no one is going to complain too loudly about the "Beatles"
>> being "topped".
See above, this is a unique situation.
Dont care what happens to them to be honest as long as its bad.
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>> As it happens they are no longer British, citizenship was revoked.
Are you sure about that? I thought that they were British born and as such I think that their citizenship cannot be revoked, although they can renounce it.
Either way, revoked or renounced, if it is the case why on earth would we do a single thing to protect them? If nothing else, it would give the threat of losing your UK passport some teeth.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 16:56
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>> >> As it happens they are no longer British, citizenship was revoked.
>>
>> Are you sure about that? I thought that they were British born and as such
>> I think that their citizenship cannot be revoked, although they can renounce it.
Elsheikh was born in Sudan but his family fled to the UK while he was an infant and he was subsequently naturalised. Kotey is of Greek-Ghanaian parentage and was brought up in UK but my brief research hasn't turned up his place of birth.
Both have had their citizenship revoked.
The law on revocation of UK citizenship is controversial and has a tortuous history:
researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06820
AIUI the issue here is that UK has been asked by US to provide evidence supportive of their extradition and/or trial. Up until now we have provided such evidence, whether for UK citizens or others, subject to an assurance that the death penalty will not be imposed. That stance reflects the long standing mainstream political consensus that the death penalt is 'inhuman and degrading treatment'.
If the government want to change that stance they can do so but there should be some sort of consultation and probably a vote in parliament. The scandal is that they've done it without any proper process.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 17:17
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>> Who cares really ?
Actually Rob I do.
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i can assure you you are in the minority
They are not British, they are not in Britain, its not our problem.
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>> i can assure you you are in the minority
I may well be but I view governments (of any stripe) acting in defiance of established law and precedent to send people to their death abhorrent.
They were British, they were in Britain and it's British evidence that's offered without condition to the septics.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 19:03
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What about the deliberate targeting of UK citizens fighting for ISIS by the RAF and Army in Theatre Bromp ?
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>> What about the deliberate targeting of UK citizens fighting for ISIS by the RAF and
>> Army in Theatre Bromp ?
Same principle. If it's extra-judicial execution, like 'White Widow' Sally Jones, then I'd condemn it.
If they're on an operation and they're caught in fire then fair game.
EDIT: We've discussed this principal before:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=25009&m=550733
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 19:41
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>> Same principle. If it's extra-judicial execution, like 'White Widow' Sally Jones, then I'd condemn it.
She was providing logistical support to enemy combatants, and was part of command and control and that makes her a legitimate military target.
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>> >> i can assure you you are in the minority
>>
>> I may well be but I view governments (of any stripe) acting in defiance of
>> established law and precedent to send people to their death abhorrent.
>>
>> They were British, they were in Britain
so was half the world at some point, point is they emigrated and declared allegiance to another state. Let them deal with it.
Not our problem.
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>> Not our problem.
In the generality yes. If they're guilty and get banged up for life so be it.
Doesn't make facilitating death by lethal injection right though.
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>> Doesn't make facilitating death by lethal injection right though.
We are not, they are in a jail outside out control, short of raiding the place and springing them out not a lot we can do, sorry < shrug >
All we are guilty of is inaction.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 19:47
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>> We are not, they are in a jail outside out control, short of raiding the
>> place and springing them out not a lot we can do, sorry < shrug >
Yes there is. If we provide evidence to facilitate their extradition/conviction then we follow the status quo ante and make that co-operation conditional on a 'no death penalty' clause.
If we want to alter the terms then we follow proper process not (Prime?) Ministerial whim.
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>> Yes there is. If we provide evidence to facilitate their extradition
There is no extradition, They are not in a UK jail, they are not even on UK soil. The "jail" they are in is not a recognised detention facility, or even in a recognised legal jurisdiction. Legal extradition is not possible. So we are doing nothing.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 19:59
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>> There is no extradition, They are not in a UK jail, they are not even
>> on UK soil. The "jail" they are in is not a recognised detention facility, or
>> even in a recognised legal jurisdiction. Legal extradition is not possible. So we are doing
>> nothing.
Whatever the mechanics/semantics AIUI we're being asked to provide evidence to support their removal/rendition to, and trial in, USA. We can choose, as per precedent, to impose conditions on that provision. If we decide not to impose conditions then Ministers should justify that change of policy to Parliament.
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>> Whatever the mechanics/semantics
Its not ruddy mechanics or semantics, its the fundamental reason why the rules of extradition dont apply and why the government dont need to apply them.
they are non british rebels rebels being held by another non british rebel group in an ungoverned compound in a place on earth with no government.
What do you want to do, send a bucking legal aid wallah over there? if he makes it there alive.
The truth of the matter is that they are going to be captured by the yanks, using intelligence we have ALREADY shared. Nothing we can do about it.
Tell you what send a letter to MR trump complaining, and he will make sure they end up in Gitmo.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 20:58
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We either believe the death penalty is valid or not.
For probably the first time, certainly in a long while, I'm with Bromp.
For these guys to rot in jail for life is the right answer for a civilised society.
Personal belief, I understand the anger etc and the feelings of other posters who do not agree.
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>> Dont care what happens to them to be honest as long as its bad.
>>
It's bad You missed the Apostrophe Mr. 540i. :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 01:48
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Kind of with Bromp on this.
"Not British, not in the UK etc, etc not our problem". I completely agree.
But if we supply the evidence that gets them executed then we are involved and it is to do with us. And this is contrary to our policy until now.
Nothing we can do about it? Yes, we can refuse to give the evidence without a reassurance.
Insofar as saying, screw it, we don't care what you do, nothing to do with us, the moment we give the evidence, then we are involved.
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The problem was they were not caught in the act. We have armed police and armed forces to administer a death penalty if it is appropriate. It is only when lawers and wishy washy liberals get involved it becomes a problem.
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Death Penalty By The Back Door - Bromptonaut
