www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306567/Fees-high-street-chuggers-eat-millions-donated-charities.html
I heard about this last night on R4 News. I nearly posted here a couple of weeks ago when a chap with an Eastern European accent cold called at my home. He was wearing a British Red Cross fleece and carried a BRC ID card. He tried to bully me into signing a Direct Debit mandate to the BRC, he actually stepped inside the doorway at one point. I was more concerned about giving my Bank details to a complete stranger than becoming a Chugger's bitch. Meant to phone the BRC to confirm that this was standard practice but never got round to it. However some internet checks seemed to confirm my ID theft theory. (talk of cold callers seen searching through re-cycling bins in one neighbourhood)
Don't be hoodwinked - if you want to donate do it direct to the charity of your choice.......better still do it by Gift Aid.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Fri 27 Aug 10 at 10:06
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I became aware of these sorts of companies when youngest step son got a 'job' with one. It took some convincing to get him to quit before starting.
They basically setup 'campaigns' where they target people on the street or door to door. They get paid a comission so get nothing for a days work if nobody signs up. The company makes all the money.
When someone comes around the doors like this I would never give my bank details. That would be madness even if it was really only used for the charity. As you say if you're going to give money then give it directly to the charity. That way they actually get some money.
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I used to do voluntary work for a local charity forty-odd years ago, but became disillusioned when I realised many others were using it as a very lucrative second income.
I then did some collection work for another, but left immediately when I saw an organiser lining his pockets with money collected.
I used Give-as-you-earn when I had more disposable income, but suspected most of the money didn't reach its intended. I now give rarely and get thoroughly cheesed off with missives from charities I've donated to in the past.
I believe charities are legally obliged to publish what percentage of income is used for 'administration'. I find they back off when you start asking questions along these lines.
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The same people that come around the door might be collecting for the Red Cross one day. The next they might be working 'for' nPower or similar trying to make you switch electricity supplier.
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This is very interesting as I was just speaking to the guy who runs our Charity's lottery and he was saying that he had saw a program on this last night?
Without doubt the best way to donate to a charity is pure cash, preferably gift aided, walk into reception and hand over the cash. Even then the charity will have the usual fees from the bank for banking services.
Thereafter there are a million different ways to donate, whether buying items in their charity shops (where they need to pay for electricity etc) - as a marker here their charity shops should be making at least 30% profit on their income. So your £10 that you spend in the shop will make them £3 odd profit. (and you get the item you purchased)
Whether it be raffles, prize draws, sponsored walks etc there will be costs attached that the charity will probably allocate to that "cost centre". Even the increased use of "Just Giving" website has costs attached to it.
Charities will try to get income from every possible source that they can. So we have canvassers who will go round doors and try and get them to sign up to our lottery, either by DD or by cash collection. Yes they are paid commission but as with many "speculate to accumulate", sometimes these take time to pay dividends.
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I think (hope) the programme will have killed it dead. The guy who was supposed to regulating it seemed to be on another planet! It's no coincidence that Oxfam gave up on the process two years ago.
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My standard response when approached or phoned by someone representing a charity is, "Fantastic, how much can I have"?
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I gave up on listening to Classic FM (not that I did a huge amount) because I was fed up with the charity ads. Surely they must know everyone can't respond to everything and if you start to feel bad about it you switch off - literally and metaphorically?
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I sent the article to SWMBO and here's her reply ~
"They are always in St Austell – no wonder they pester the life out of you and you have to be rude to get rid of them – always reminds me of the time share reps in Tenerife".
Didn’t know they were called Chuggers – I’ll just tell em to chug off in future!
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...Didn’t know they were called Chuggers...
'Chuggers' is a so-called portmanteau word - a word made up of two others - 'charity' and 'muggers'.
'Chortle' is another one - 'chuckle' and 'snort'.
The term was coined by the author Lewis Carroll:
users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/portmant.htm
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>>'Chuggers' is a so-called portmanteau word<<
Ah, ha ... like mizzle then ifih - mist & drizzle, thanks, I'll tell the missus :)
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>
>> Ah, ha ... like mizzle then ifih - mist & drizzle, thanks, I'll tell the
>> missus :)
Snain........Rain turning to snow.
Strumpy........stressed and grumpy.
Ted
>>
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>>Snain........Rain turning to snow.
Strumpy........stressed and grumpy.<<
Gottle of Gear ........ Now you're talking :)
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They're on the comedy central channel, every single ad break. "just £2 a month..." etc
I wonder how the maths stack up. How much do they pay for advertising and how many people sign up for £2 a month in between watching Scrubs and Frasier.
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I give to charity. Its called income tax.
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Actually Nicole is leaving the NHS, to work for a charity that provides day, respite, outreach and end of life care for kids.
So in effect I have given to charity!
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I missed the Radio 4 news programme but this thread has made for good reading
I generally dont donate to charity for the reasons as mentioned above becasue I have read about directors of charties who have fat pay packets and company cars etc, to me it all seems a bit too faced.
on the flip side, I do volunteer for our local talking newspaper which is a registered charity, and I feel that I am at least giving something to someone that helps with their life, than just putting some money into a tin and not knowning where it goes. So although not much, I feel im helping someone else, and making a difference to their lives.
Last edited by: Redviper on Fri 27 Aug 10 at 12:22
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Viper, thats an interesting comment and much of which I wholeheartedly agree with. However without defending directors etc, I remember a comment on here way back when the new govt came in and someone stating that x% of the cabinet were millionaires and the reply being would you not prefer someone successful runningt he country than someone who wasn't?
Ok, that could be argued till the cows come home but the other side of your note is the fact you think the best way to contribute is to volunteer and you are probably correct with that.
However, in a way, a sad reflection on our society, strange though it may seem, is a willingness for individuals to give carte blanche to charity to ease their minds. I am referring in particular to when there are tragedies and "funds are set up", sometimes backed by a national paper and people immediately throw money at it. Quite often, money is not the answer for people that are affected by these tragedies.
The two that immediately spring to mind were the Dunblane school shooting and also the Aberfan disaster. To the best of my knowledge in both cases there is still wrangling going on about the monies raised and whats to happen with them. But there will be a lot of people walking about thinking they have done their bit as they have dipped into their wallet.
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BobbyG:
Thankyou for your kind comments
I completely agree with you, money is sometimes not the anwser, its about doing something for someone else. I have started out on the talking newspaper becasue i wanted to make a difference to someone although I rightfully stand in the shadow of the brave men and women who volunteer for the organsations such as the RNLI and other rescue oraganastions and Shelter organsations to help the homeless people who really need help not money.
I would hopefully want to get more involved with Homeless charitys in the future but for know the tallking newspaper, and perhaps selfishly motorsport marshalling takes up most of my time ( I have just realised how selfish i may sound, but im really not)
Some people on here may think Im rude and selfish becasue of my comments on some posts but (if I say so myself) people who know me would say that I help others as much as I can and thats what I have recently tried to apply by voluntering with chartys
Please dont anyone think Im trying to be big headed or big myself up, im just trying in the best way that I can to explain why I get more out of volunterring myself instead of dropping money into a tin.
If thats the impresion that I have made (big headedness) then im truely sorry.
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PU wrote
> Meant to phone the BRC to confirm that this was standard practice but never got round to it.
DO contact British Red Cross, either HQ or your local branch, ASAP. I'm not a member of the British Red Cross, but based on my knowledge of related organisation, this sounds most irregular. Unless the BRC know about it, though, they can't do anything to stop it.
> He was wearing a British Red Cross fleece and carried a BRC ID card
I'm sure that both are issued to members, but remain the property of the Red Cross. I'm certain they would be very concerned to learn either was misused.
In the organisation I am part of, we run an on-street collection once a year. All collecotrs are volunteers, and are required by the organisation to carry a copy of the permit issued by the local police superintendant allowing us to collect. We also carry photo ID. I can't imagine the BRC's rules are any different.
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He had a photo-ID but I guess pretty easy to run one up on Photoshop..his social skills left a bit to be desired as well, stepping into the house uninvited...quite intimidating for an older person I would imagine.
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I'm a govenor member of the RNLI and have been for 30yrs. Pay a fair bit by direct debit quarterly. By and large for this reason I reckon I've done my bit and don't otherwise chuck coins into random buckets in the street or sponsor folks to do things they want to do anyway.
I trust the RNLI admin systems and... unlike those that keep mangy cats or motheaten old horses alive beyond their sell by date... they save the lives of real people who's families are eternally grateful.
Their boats are nice and shiny too.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 27 Aug 10 at 12:46
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My brother-in-law is a chugger team leader. He earns a very small amount, barely enough to keep his family in small flat in an unsalubrious bit of London. He works very hard as he is truly committed to collecting money for the charities he works for (it does change weekly).
His job is difficult as many of the actual chuggers are perhaps not filled with work ethic, especially when times are hard and the rain is falling.
I applaud his efforts, but do agree that chuggers have bad rep, not helped by alot of negative publicity.
Bottom line is- charities are not financially naive- they wouldn't use chuggers if it didn't pay off.
I give to 4 charities monthly and generally politely wave off chuggers. I would be very unhappy if doorstepped though, and would give them short shrift.
Cheers,
Alex.
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>> He had a photo-ID but I guess pretty easy to run one up on Photoshop.
A photo-ID is only of any use if you know what a genuine one looks like.
Reminds me of going into a video rental place with my Dad in the early 90's, they wanted to see some form of ID as he was a new customer so he pulls out his work ID card, he worked for the local water company at the time, they had no idea what it was. This is the card he's meant to show to house holders to prove he is genuine and not a scam artist.
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How many of you fill these clothes bags that you get through your letter box and leave them on your doorstep for collection? You would be doing muchmore for charity if you took them to a charity shop who would sell your items individually, rather than the majority of door steppers who simply sell them on based on the weight of the bag.
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Argh - think i`ve been "chugged" just last week on behalf of the Air Ambulance! - must remember to cancel it (DD) when i`m up town next, i`ll post them a cheque direct instead!
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I imagine there's good money to be made by those who are skilled at it. A similar technique is used to sell credit cards.
My wife did it for a while when our son was small and she wanted flexible work. You know the sort of thing, usually at airports and motorway service areas where someone collars you to sign up for a new credit card.
They deliberately choose reasonably presentable women who can get the attention of passing blokes without too much trouble. She used to get £5 for every card which got signed up and if she had a good pitch at the airport could regularly get 30 signatures a shift.
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>>She used to get £5 for every card which got signed up and if she had a good pitch at the airport could regularly get 30 signatures a shift.
And thats how she justified to you the cash she made........... :)
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Well she was usually airside at Edinburgh airport so I've really no idea of the fine details !
The card she helped launch in her small way was the Shell Visa when it was actually a good deal and therefore easy to sell.
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>> How many of you fill these clothes bags that you get through your letter box
I get four or five of these through the letterbox every week. I always leave them outside the door, unfilled, until the day after the collectors have been round and ignored them. Then the empty sacks go in the bin.
I don't live in a particularly prosperous neighbourhood, and I've seen only one or two charity bags filled and left out in my street in the 3 years I've been here.
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We use the clothes bags as bin liners. Cheaper than buying 'em :-)
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I left some good quality clobber out for the Sally Army last week including a lifetime supply of ties - they never showed up.
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Not suprised, I have seen your ties.
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probably smelled of kippers
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Probably went well with his flaired strides.
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dont forget the sandals......
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Ha thought I saw some tramp with charred fingers rifling through the bag !
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>> social skills left a bit to be desired as well, stepping into the house uninvited...quite
>> intimidating for an older person I would imagine.
What about the PU pack of hounds? Fifi is scared of her own shadow, but get some stranger trying to enter the house and its a good impression of the hound of the Baskervilles. She always comes to the door with whoever answers it.
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PU: He had a photo-ID but I guess pretty easy to run one up on Photoshop
Any ID worth its salt has a phone number on it that you can call to confirm the holder is genuine. Mine does, as does my work ID. Even in a student job for the water board, I was still issued with a photo ID with a contact number for the Board's HR department on it.
Never hesitate to ask someone carrying ID to wait outside while you double check. If they're genuine, they won't mind. If its outside office hours (as I recall your case was), tell them come back when you've rang in to check.
And even if the ID holder is genuine, if he intrudes univited, complain him! That's simply not on, and gives both the organisation and others involved with it a bad name.
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So whats to stop you putting a number on it and telling your pal to always answer the phone saying "British Water Company"?
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I thought this was funny ...
A local charity organisation found out that they had never received a donation from the most succesful lawyer in town. The assistant fund raising decided to give him a call.
"Our research shows that you make over EUR 500,000 in a year, but fail to donate anything to charity. Wouldn't you like to give something back to society one way or another?"
The lawyer gave this some thought, and answered:
"First of all, are you aware that my mother is dying after a long period of illness, and that her medical costs are many times higher than what she earns?"
Ashamed, the assistant starts:"Ehhmm..no..."
"Or that my brother, a handicapped veteran, is blind and spends his remaining days in a wheel chair?"
The assistant mumbles an apology, but is interrupted again.
"Or that my sister's husband recently passed away in a traffic accident, and that she was left to take care of three children without any money?!"
The humiliated assistant, completely beaten, says: "I'm so sorry, I had no idea..."
"So if I don't give THEM any money, why should I give some to you?!"
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Poor PU. Preying on the retired. Tehy'll be round to Zero next.
I was delighted, though to have three RSPCA chuggers listening to my every word for a whole fifteen minutes earlier this week. Eventually their handler (a thug, wouldn't like to be on the wrong side of him) turned up to tell them that 3 on 1 counted as pestering... I told him I was perfectly happy.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 27 Aug 10 at 17:54
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if you can get someones name from a neighbour and find they have a landline you can look them up on 192.com and it will tell you their age range
you then do a google earth/street map to look round their properties to confirm they are old
then knock on their door to tell them you need access because you are going to rob them
(use some polony like you are fromt carncil or a utilities rubbish)
only in this country could all our personal details be up for grabs for the use of burglars tieves and low life scum........
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gulp! I just looked myself up. I'm ex directory and I tick the box on the electoral roll to say "don't sell my details" but I'm still there. No phone nbr and very little detail but goodness only knows what the premium entry has.
JH
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On the odd occasion that I am stopped by the chuggers I tell them that I am an OAP and still working, I contribute to the upkeep of an OAP in Sri Lanka who is younger than I am, an orphan in Kenya and I split my Winter Fuel Allowance 5 ways between UK charities and I reckon that is probably enough. I mention this, not to make out that I am particularly generous but we can all spare something and, as some else has said, cash over the counter or direct to the charriy and Gift AID is the best combination.
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Same as tooslow. I now know my partner's name!!
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Too late to edit.
Response screen suggests results are based on the 2002 Electoral Register. A search for my mother in the town she then lived in returns her name (which is too rare to be a duplicate) but linked with two others, probably the couple to whom she sold the house.
If I was remotely paranoid I'd be terrified!!
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>> I was delighted, though to have three RSPCA chiggers listening to my every word for
>> a whole fifteen minutes earlier this week.
Im sure you made many other people happy, by keeping the chiggers busy for 15 min's!!
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He offered me a couple of numbers to phone to check his ID - they were premium rate 08 numbers, when I checked the BRC website they were different 08 type numbers - I wouldn't sign up to something like that at the door or on the pavement on principle. I do give to charity, on my own terms....:-)
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"I was delighted, though to have three RSPCA chuggers listening to my every word for a whole fifteen minutes earlier this week."
Mapmaker, I'm intrigued. What was the subject of your discourse - if you don't mind me asking?
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>> "I was delighted, though to have three RSPCA chuggers listening to my every word for
>> a whole fifteen minutes earlier this week."
Wow - thats a sad life. Do you take trips on the Asda shuttle bus just for the company?
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I give to two charities, one by yearly standing order, The Childrens Society. The other, a local hospice who collect at the door and enter you into a raffle....won £600 many years ago.
No-one else gets any unless a one-off good cause, like a toddler who had lost his limbs to meningitis locally.
We must get 4 requests a week here for clothing...just how many clothes do they think I own, let alone want to dispose of ?
I'm not keen on these collecting envelopes that pop through the door. Usually lost by the time the collector comes, they then present you with a replacement and stand there until you've filled it with cash....a sort of moral blackmail ! Box of rusty washers somewhere handy comes to mind .
Ted
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Can I just put the other side of this discussion to enable a fair view of things please?
This is certainly not a plea for donations to us either!
As you know I'm involved with the setting up an running of a small Charity.
We can't be registered with the Charities Commission yet as they have raised the threshold for the annual accounts and we don't raise enough to qualify.
However, we are registered for Gift Aid and it's quite a stringent process to go through to get it granted if you're not a registered charity.
There are just eight of us involved as Trustees, and none of us are employed by the charity.
Everything we do is done voluntarily around our full time jobs.
No-one ever claims expenses for anything, and donates any costs incurred back to the charity so it can be Gift Aided.
The only expenses we have are for stationary and we even do our own printing.
The point I'm trying to make is that there are hundreds of small charities out there just like us, who deserve your donations.
Please don't be put of from making donations, if you look on the Gift Aid pages on the HMRC website there is a comprehensive list of them and all of you should be able to find some locally, and that would be close to your heart.
You will be sure that 100% of what you give goes to help those you really want to help.
Pat
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Can I just put the other side of this discussion to enable a fair view of things please?
Pat, you make it sound like there are two sides on this thread - the anti-charity people (most of the rest) and the pro-charity people (basically yourself).
I don't think of it like that. I've been very involved with charities, including the financial side, over many years. But I would endorse most of what has been said on this thread. Many charities raise funds using techniques that I don't like. In fact there are a lot of things that some charities do (particularly big, well-known charities) that I don't like.
I take the view that giving to charity should be thought out and premeditated, and I would want to encourage people to give like that. In other words,
1) put time aside to think about giving,
2) decide how much you are going to give,
3) investigate the charities that you are thinking of giving to,
4) find out exactly how they will spend your money, and
5) give to them regularly and generously.
Obviously, one will also give some money to other good causes as they arise. But in general, I don't give to charities that cold call me, and I don't give to door to door collectors or street collectors. And I tend to avoid charities that spend a fair amount of their money on fund raising.
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For the casual givers among us, sorting out the well-run charities from the nest-feathering ones is difficult.
The larger charities seem to suffer from the '£50,000 desk' syndrome more than the small ones.
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Tyro, I do apologise if I made it sound like that, I certainly didn't mean to.
I dislike and dissaprove of all the practices listed above, but just wanted to point out that there are other options where people can donate to causes that mean something to them and will be used objectively.
I also feel strongly that small chariies do suffer by the reputations that some of the instances above have led to and was trying to correct that a little.
On a lighter note, I do sometimes wonder if I live on a different planet to the rest of you:)
So often, I don't reply to posts because someone always seems to take 'me' the wrong way.
Am I really that hard to understand?
Pat
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I wouldn't advocate not giving, in fact I happily give - as I did with the money collected after the loss of my first wife. All I'm saying is that the Chuggers need to be dealt with with caution.
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>> On a lighter note, I do sometimes wonder if I live on a different planet
>> to the rest of you:)
>>
>> So often, I don't reply to posts because someone always seems to take 'me' the
>> wrong way.
>> Am I really that hard to understand?
>>
>> Pat
>>
No I dont think you are Pat.
I also find the same issues with things I say in forums, (also texts!) I think the problem is, that the written word obviously comes without the 'tone of meaning' that the spoken words (even when exactly the same) does come with.
Ive just typed that wondering if people will understand my point!
In a way, the written word, can be like Chinese whispers, clear in meaning to the author, but coming over totally different to the reader - another example, how many of us have read a book, then seen the film, and the images on the screen were totally different to those in our mindseye, even when the story wasn't butchered by the screenwriter?
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I signed up to an annual £50 to one charity, just before Xmas each year about 5 years ago.
In the last 6 months I have been bombarded, well may be not bombarded, but 4/5 calls in 2/3 months. To increase the amount or change it to monthly - making a higher amount etc etc.
I said if they wanted the November DD spot they would get the same £50 or alternatively ANother charity could take their place in November................3 months now and silence. I think they got the message.
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I've had the "letter through the box thing". It's moral blackmail on two levels. Firstly they send a "package" to a low numbered house asking you to issue the envelopes in your road and collect them. This means that you're giving rusty washers (if you follow the lighthearted suggestion above) to a neighbour, who now know's that you're as tight as a duck's bum.
Wife subscribes to various charities in joint names, so I'm a member of all sorts of things. It's annoying that they then hit those who are giving for more, as once offs and increases. It's her money so she can do what she wants but I did suggest that she cancel the RSPCA payment after one too many case where they not only lost but then went on to appeal when some batty old idiot clearly diddled a child out of their inheritance. She got a letter back saying they were "obliged" to fight the case. Maybe, but appeal?
Personally I prefer to give over the web, ad hoc, when I can afford it. No one pesters me that way!
Oh, and one last thing, for some reason which I cannot explain one of my favoured charities is the Sally Army. Possibly childhood memories of brass bands at Christmas. I recently walked past a fairly anonymous looking lady standing in the entrance to Mark Sand. She had a ghetto blaster playing brass band music and I realised.. she was collecting for the SA. No brass band, no uniform. :-(
JH
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"We can't be registered with the Charities Commission yet as they have raised the threshold for the annual accounts and we don't raise enough to qualify."
That's interesting, Pat. I hadn't realised there was a threshold, which is especially strange as there are large outfits, often quangos, that register as charities even though they get little or nothing in the way of public donations. This allows them tax breaks and eases their access to government grants. The British Medical Association (BMA) is one and there are hundreds of others. There is a website, fakecharities.org, although I think it has to keep moving as it's not very popular with its targets!
This sort of thing gives genuine charities a bad name, and as the small ones seem to be the best run, perhaps the threshold should be made a ceiling instead...
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It used to be £1500 annually going through the accounts but last year some time they raised it ti £5000.
We might make that this year, but can't guarantee to make it every year, so they don't really want to get involved until we get well above that on a regular basis.
They tell me they were getting inundated with small 'charities' making applications and couldn't cope.
I agree it gives charities a bad name and it also makes it hard to raise money if your not registered with them.
Thankfully the Gift Aid application means a thorough investigation and does give some credibility.
Pat
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Can you get your charity a page on Justgiving?? Might lead to more people finding it and giving money. Facebook page for it ( if you don't have one already) is also another good way to get free publicity and more money coming in.
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Two charities I also support are done on the bike. The SA in Manchester have a Christmas Toy run for the kids. Hundreds of bikers turn out and the police let us all go through red lights, etc.
The other is the Wirral Egg run at Easter for the kids at Clatterbridge Cancer Hospital...used to be Easter Eggs but both runs prefer donations now.
The Egg run is getting to be a pain now...thousands of bikes, You just can't get moving at enough speed to get your legs off the tarmac and walking pace is hard on the arms, keeping the steering on course.
Ted
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...but both runs prefer donations now...
A friend of mine offered some new, boxed toys to a hospital childrens' ward.
They didn't want them.
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>>A friend of mine offered some new, boxed toys to a hospital childrens' ward.
>> They didn't want them.
Because they would harbour germs and could never be shared between children?
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Thanks teabelly for those suggestions, I'll certainly do the facebook page.
Just Giving costs £180 per year and I'm not sure it would fetch a return on that outlay though.
Pat
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Charity Chuggers - rtj70
