The parents of terminally ill Alfie Evans have lost another court battle.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43788247
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In that article it says that the parents have lost cases in lost fights in the High Court, Court of Appeal, Supreme Court and European Court of Human Rights.
I'm no medic but there appears to be strong medical evidence that nothing can be done for the poor kid.
I suppose people have to be allowed to follow their wishes but allowing this process to go on like this, like the other case some months back, seems to me to be more hurtful and unkind for the terminally sick child.
I've never been in their position and I doubt I ever will, but while I feel sorry for them I don't get why the parents will not accept the professional advice of multiple medical experts, which has been reinforced many times by the judicial system.
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The Court of Appeal's judgment makes tragic reading but is 100% clear that there is no hope:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/550.html
One factor in these sort of cases (see Charlie Gard and Isiah Haastrup) seems to be 'supporters' giving parent's false hope by trying to introduce evidence from so called experts brought in from abroad. The court has drawn specific attention to the unreliability and downright illegality involved where these people have carried out clandestine examinations without the knowledge or consent of the court or the doctors actually treating the child.
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I believe that it is generally the Americans who at the the front of the queue with their wild and wonderful and hardly proven methods.
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When I first heard this so sad story I was with the medical profession.
Seeing the little lad so peaceful I am with the parents.I couldn't make the decision to let a child go if he was mine.I would fight for him.
Keep him alive I know it is controversial but you never know miracles could happen.
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>> Keep him alive I know it is controversial but you never know miracles could happen.
The point is, he is not alive, his body is maintained. And the resources involved in doing so could well prevent some other child being given a better chance.
Its selfishness, very very understandable mind you, but pure personal selfishness. All these cases are being driven by the parents need, not those of the child.
And I am going to be really controversial and cruel here.
Some of the parents may well be revelling in the new found limelight.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/ashya-king-cleared-cancer-three-years-parents-abducted-hospital/
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>> It's a good job these parents didn't give up.
Absolutely completely different case in every way.
The UK medics had not given up and were treating him. The only dispute was the treatment. The outcome could well have been the same in the UK.
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I wouldn't say it was a completely different case, it is a different case but there are some similarities.
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Zero. You can be loody controversial at times, but I think that you have hit the nail squarely on the head with this one.
Regards, MD.
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*sigh*
My comparison of the two cases was in answer to this remark
>>s selfishness, very very understandable mind you, but pure personal selfishness. All these cases are being driven by the parents need, not those of the child.
And I am going to be really controversial and cruel here.
Some of the parents may well be revelling in the new found limelight<<
I am aware the medical conditions differ but both sets of parents want the same thing, and I don't think it's anything to do with the limelight.
Pat
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Wanting something and it being possible are not of course the same thing. Sometimes accepting reality is the hardest thing but is where true courage and compassion lies.
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>I don't get why the parents will not accept the professional advice of multiple medical experts
When do you give up? When do you stop and say "yes, they're right, I should let my child die".
They might be wrong, but who can blame them for simply refusing to let go?
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Paediatric Intensive Care Units are a very scarce and expensive resource. How many other children have been denied the facility (or life?) whilst this 'hopeless' case drags on?
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>> Paediatric Intensive Care Units are a very scarce and expensive resource. How many other children
>> have been denied the facility (or life?) whilst this 'hopeless' case drags on?
I have little doubt that the Doctors and the hospital are correct and that there is no hope and the 'correct' course of action is clear.
On the other hand I have endless sympathy for the parents. However wrong they are objectively, that is a truly terrible position to be in. Whatever the truth or the logic, emotionally they are clearly struggling with the idea of giving up. I am sure that they believe that they are correct - certainly the father.
I have absolutely sod-all sympathy for the morons around them though. Intimidating other patients, disrupting a hospital, fraudulently entering the hospital, irresponsible and worthless advice, pretend lawyers etc. etc.
That lot should be ashamed of themselves.
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I think most on here are well past the age of bringing children into the world, so we don't truly know how we would react if we were in the position of ending our own child's life. But we may be in the position (or have been) with our parents.
My father died 19 years ago aged 78. About two years before, he 'died' in hospital but was brought back by the doctors. Unfortunately, his quality of life suffered and wasn't able to play bowls or potter any more. After his death, my mother decided to have a living will. As her mobility reduced and she started to suffer falls at home, she told me her worst fear was breaking a hip or something and dying in hospital. After one too many falls, I decided the time had come for a move to a care home. She knew it too, but it was traumatic. She lived fairly happily there for nearly five years, mobility deteriorated and dementia set in. A short stay in hospital about a year before her death convinced me it was no place for a frail and quite deaf old lady. She was confused and obviously the staff, whilst generally excellent, didn't know her like the care home staff did.
About a year after her hospital stay, she had a bad chest infection. GP prescribed antibiotics weren't working and a hospital stay was suggested. I thought about it, spoke to her GP and the care home manager/owner (a very experienced nurse) and decided hospital was the last place she would want to go. Yes, she may have pulled through following IV antibiotics, but for how long before the next time. She died peacefully a few days later in her room at the care home aged 90. I was there - a luxury I didn't get with my father, who died alone in a hospital room.
In some ways it was an easy decision as I knew what she would have wanted but, was it the right decision? At the time it was quite logical but I've thought about it a lot over the years. I believe many would have kept their mother alive in similar circumstances.
Last edited by: ChrisM on Tue 17 Apr 18 at 12:53
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>>I believe many would have kept there mother alive in similar circumstances.
Perhaps, but for what's it's worth I believe that you are a good man who did what your Mother would have wanted.
One can do no more.
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>>was it the right decision?
>>hospital was the last place she would want to go
Right decision.
>>I believe many would have kept their mother alive in similar circumstances.
True, but I think this is often for the relatives benefit rather than the patient as they are not ready to let go, or accept the inevitable decline they see before them.
With these situations, if there is no other information to go on, "What would I want for myself/my wife/my mother/my child?" often is the best decision maker you'll have available.
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I can't say I disagree with any of the views expressed here. No rights and wrongs, no winners.
The rowdy and aggressive demonstrators are doing nobody any good at all.
But I wonder how hard the courts (who are very much basing their judgements on the line given by the doctors, quite reasonably) have considered breaking the apparent deadlock by simply allowing the child to be taken for alternative treatment provided that his suffering is not increased.
It appears futile but it would at least free up the resources sooner. It's also clear that the parents (and the misguided 'supporters' who are just making a bad situation worse) will never give up and, when life support is eventually turned off by order of a court, the hospital, the doctors and the state will be vilified as murderers.
Let the parents and the child take their chances if it can be done without further pain for the boy. Perhaps that isn't possible.
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But a viable option that I hadn’t considered.
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I am in the process of making an LPA (and persuading my wife she should, too).
On the health side, if the LPA comes into effect, I will have already written in wishes to the effect that a DNR note be entered in the appropriate medical records.
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>> On the health side, if the LPA comes into effect, I will have already written in wishes to the
>> effect that a DNR note be entered in the appropriate medical records.
That has nothing to do with an LPA. But someone you have trusted on your behalf can have a say in your treatment if you're unable to make those decisions. This is not a living will. Well worth having all the same. Easy to do online and print and get witnessed - £84. Don't use a solicitor.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 17 Apr 18 at 23:03
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SWMBO and I have just each done Lasting Powers of Attorney. There are two each to do, one for Health and the other for Wealth. they are £82 for each one unless you can claim low income (which I was legally able to do), so it's not a cheap exercise, but pretty essential IMO.
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For some reason I thought it was £84 each for the health and financial. Close enough. I set two up last October.
Not done one for myself yet but done for the father in law. Hence knowing (a) easy to do, (b) do not use a solicitor or company and (c) nothing to do with a living will like eluded to above. You could want to be left to die and the attorney tries to keep you alive or vice versa.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 18 Apr 18 at 00:25
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>> But I wonder how hard the courts (who are very much basing their judgements on
>> the line given by the doctors, quite reasonably) have considered breaking the apparent deadlock by
>> simply allowing the child to be taken for alternative treatment provided that his suffering is
>> not increased.
I cannot begin to understand his parents' distress but.....
AIUI the courts' concern is the interest of the child. While it's impossible to be sure he is suffering (condition has apparently destroyed his brain) moving him elsewhere will certainly not reduce any pain or distress he feels. Alternative treatment by quacks, which seems to be the option on offer, may well increase it.
He needs to be allowed to die with as much dignity as he can be afforded.
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What's it all about, Alfie?
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I don't get the last couple of posts. Or is it just me?
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Ah right, never heard of that song before.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 18 Apr 18 at 08:50
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Wot? Wtf have you been for the last 50 years
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His brain has succesfully blocked out anything to do with Cilla Black. Wish mind would!
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Heard that Dad has had an audience with the Pope today, so I he must have flown out to Rome?
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Presumably if the Pope takes the same line as the courts then the father will accept that... we'll probably never know though.
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>> Presumably if the Pope takes the same line as the courts then the father will
>> accept that... we'll probably never know though.
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The Pope will support him because of the Catholic church's stance on the sanctity of life - even if the child is proved to be suffering great pain. Dogma before people is their motto, not that they are the only religion like that.
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Who is paying for all this legal stuff and flights, too?
Follow the money...........................................
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>> Wot? Wtf have you been for the last 50 years
>>
Honestly never heard of it, before my time.
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Supreme Court rules against parents for second time
The court also refused permission for the parents to appeal the decision.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43841547
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Hardly surprising the second appeal to the supreme court failed - their appeal to the Court of Appeal was the exact same appeal as last time albeit presented by a new legal team. So the supreme court has basically said enough is enough.
Poor little soul. I hope he's not suffered by prolonging this.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 20 Apr 18 at 18:20
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Off now to the European Court of Human Rights...
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www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b05y8n/hospital-series-3-episode-4
Worth a watch. Paediatrician close to the edge in my humble opinion.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43872678
Another twist as alfie is given Italian citizenship. I'm not sure how this affects things?
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I'm not sure it does really, but if was the British authorities I'd let it make a difference.
If they are not causing the child suffering then perhaps they should be allowed to fly him somewhere. .
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So under what rules and laws of Italian citizenship has this been granted?
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Who knows, or indeed cares. I guess Italy can give citizenship to whoever they want.
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>> Who knows, or indeed cares. I guess Italy can give citizenship to whoever they want.
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I quite fancy an Italian passport, its a good post Brexit benefit, will they send me one?
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>> If they are not causing the child suffering then perhaps they should be allowed to
>> fly him somewhere.
The irony is that he's probably beyond suffering and flying him somewhere will make no difference.
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I'm starting to think let them take him away from the Liverpool hospital and let the staff treat other unwell children. As long as the UK tax payer does not pay to fly him in an air ambulance to Italy that is.
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>> As long as the UK tax payer does not
>> pay to fly him in an air ambulance to Italy that is.
The (US?) religious nutters behind this campaign have more than enough cash....
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Meh, not really the biggest issue in this matter.
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Didn't I hear that they tried to storm the hospital this afternoon to try and take him away by force?
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There's some video clips on the Mail site. What were they hoping to achieve...mass hysteria.
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At this point the hospital should say "Life support gets switched off at Midday on Thursday, please come and remove your child at your expense"
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Are the people trying to storm a hospital stupid enough to not realise if this set of medical staff can't cure him nobody can? To then be chanting 'save Alfie Edwards' outside after trying to storm the building.
I wish this chap could live and one of the stupid b******s outside could die instead. He'd probably make more of his life. Do they think protesting will force doctors to suddenly think... oh hang on but some drugX might fix him?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 24 Apr 18 at 00:56
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Because this set of medical staff can't cure him it doesn't mean nobody else can.
They may be stupid the protesters outside the hospital but some of the remarks on here are downright callous.And 70 this chap is a small child loved by his parents.What is up in the U.K at the moment?
We have the Windrush scandal people in total despair because of a nasty Government decision.All this hatred stirred up by anti- immigration policies.
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>> Because this set of medical staff can't cure him it doesn't mean nobody else can.
There is no such thing as "one set of medical staff" Even the italians dont claim to be able to "cure him" merely keep a vegetable alive.
>> We have the Windrush scandal people in total despair because of a nasty Government decision.All
>> this hatred stirred up by anti- immigration policies.
The people of the UK drive the immigration policy, blame them not the government. Government only do what they think may them electable.
Not that this has anything to do with baby Alfie.
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>> Because this set of medical staff can't cure him it doesn't mean nobody else can.
Evidence given to court, and not disputed, is that the condition he suffers from has destroyed his brain. There's no cure for that.
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"Because this set of medical staff can't cure him it doesn't mean nobody else can."
The pope?
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Alfie Evans' life support withdrawn, father says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43876559
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Wed 25th Apr
.. parents appeal against Italy travel ban ruling
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43883865
"....... a military air ambulance was on standby "at the request of the Pope".
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Died last night. Hopefully this little kid that'll be allowed to rest in peace.
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Alfie Evans Parents Lose Court Battle - smokie
