Non-motoring > 78yo Arrested for Murder	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bromptonaut	Replies: 31

New Thu 5 Apr 18 10:33   78yo Arrested for Murder - Bromptonaut

Richard Osborn-Brooks aged 78 reportedly stabbed an intruder who had broken into his home with intent of burglary. Intruder died. Mr Osborn-Brooks was arrested and questioned on suspicion of murder. He's now been released on bail. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/05/man-78-bailed-over-fatal-stabbing-of-suspected-burglar Politicians and media are up in arms about unfairness of it all. Are they right or is arrest and questioning the correct and inevitable outcome of a violent death? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 10:36   78yo Arrested for Murder - VxFan

Sounds very familiar to Tony Martin, who shot and killed a burglar several years ago. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 11:02   78yo Arrested for Murder - Zero

It sounds nothing like Tony Martin, who shot the burglers in the back while trying to escape from him. Difficult to comment on this case while details of what actually happened are sparse. An arrest is probably inevitable what ever the circumstances, while statements and evidence are gathered, and the other burglar apprehended. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 12:50   78yo Arrested for Murder - VxFan

>> It sounds nothing like Tony Martin, who shot the burglers in the back while trying >> to escape from him. House owner shoots and kills burglar. House owner stabs and kills burglar. Not much difference to me. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 5 Apr 18 13:09   78yo Arrested for Murder - No FM2R

>>Not much difference to me. In the kitchen mid burglary fighting with the homeowner vs. trying to run away and no longer threatening. I think I can just about see a slight difference. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 14:34   78yo Arrested for Murder - Ted

More in the league of this guy, our local burglar slayer in 2011. No prosecution followed. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/in-the-clear-bramhall-homeowner-who-stabbed-872616 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 14:58   78yo Arrested for Murder - rtj70

I think there's a difference if there is fight in the kitchen (and burglar came armed with a screwdriver) and the burglar gets stabbed as opposed to shooting someone in the back with a shotgun when they are fleeing the property and no longer a thread. A big difference. Even in America you need to be careful when you shoot burglars. Shoot them outside of the property and you are in a lot of trouble. You can shoot them once in your property. So wait until they've finished climbing through the window. If they were to topple back outside you're in trouble. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 10:38   78yo Arrested for Murder - CGNorwich

Of course they are It's their duty It's up to the Crown Prosecution Service to decide if there was a crime and if charges are to be brought. From what we know highly unlikely. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 10:50   78yo Arrested for Murder - No FM2R

I don't think they have much choice, do they? They clearly need to question him, which inevitably requires a caution, just in case and then it'll all be passed to the CPS for a decision. A decision still needs to be made, even if it all seems obvious to the media. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 10:51   78yo Arrested for Murder - Dutchie

The old chap looks a strong character. They picked the wrong house for the sake of a few quid.That is life. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 11:01   78yo Arrested for Murder - neiltoo

It's quite right that he should be arrested and bailed under the circumstances, since he may have used "excessive force" I'm sure he's innocent of murder, or manslaughter, but I worry that he won't be cleared for months, and have to fund lawyers' fees that he won't get back. "Justice delayed is justice denied" Don't know who said that, but it's very true. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 11:07   78yo Arrested for Murder - Manatee

I don't think it is actually necessary to arrest somebody to interview them under caution and obtain admissible evidence? From PACE: A lawful arrest requires two elements: A person’s involvement or suspected involvement or attempted involvement in the commission of a criminal offence; AND Reasonable grounds for believing that the person’s arrest is necessary. • both elements must be satisfied, and • it can never be necessary to arrest a person unless there are reasonable grounds to suspect them of committing an offence. What constitutes necessity is covered at 2.9 - www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PACE-Code-G-2012.pdf It's hard to see immediately why it would always be strictly necessary always to arrest if the suspect (and I think he is reasonably a suspect) fully cooperated with questioning etc. On the other hand if he refused for example voluntarily to attend the police station for questioning then he is virtually guaranteed to be arrested. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 5 Apr 18 12:37   78yo Arrested for Murder - RichardW

I think they always arrest if suspicion of an offence - then they can interview under caution; otherwise defence will cry foul at trial and it will get dismissed on a technicality. No details have been released, but I imagine 1 or 2 stab wounds would be considered self defence; multiple stab wounds would be more suggestive of beyond reasonable force.... I doubt in any case a murder charge would stick - for that you need premeditation; which seems unlikely given that the vic had broken in and was allegedly armed with the weapon. I'd expect man slaughter if shown that force used was beyond reasonable (although hard to describe what is reasonable if you are woken up in the middle of the night by 2 tooled up scroats in your gaff!!!) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 13:53   78yo Arrested for Murder - CGNorwich

What constitutes "reasonable force" is not defined by law but if a person did what they "honestly thought was necessary at the time" then there would be "strong evidence" they acted within the law. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:00   78yo Arrested for Murder - Bromptonaut

The Secret Barrister's take: thesecretbarrister.com/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:14   78yo Arrested for Murder - No FM2R

Interesting article, thanks for the link. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:19   78yo Arrested for Murder - CGNorwich

An intelligent informed and educated summary. He'll never get a job with the the Daily Mail or working for Chris Grayling Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:10   78yo Arrested for Murder - Manatee

>> I think they always arrest if suspicion of an offence - then they can interview >> under caution; otherwise defence will cry foul at trial and it will get dismissed on >> a technicality. Did you read the post you replied to? Suspicion is not enough, it has to be necessary to make an arrest. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:24   78yo Arrested for Murder - CGNorwich

Did you read the "Secret Barrister" ? It states: "The police will usually have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed – because somebody has died a non-natural death – and the arrest will usually be necessary to allow a prompt and effective investigation, the combination of which means that an arrest is permissible" Which addresses the point you were making. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 17:44   78yo Arrested for Murder - Manatee

>> Which addresses the point you were making. Not entirely. It's covered at 2.9 (e) which is a long list but it does not automatically follow that the need to investigate promptly and effectively makes it necessary to arrest - otherwise there would be no need for the list. I suspect it is easily abused. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 19:14   78yo Arrested for Murder - Dutchie

Any wannabe burglars just have to realise that if you break into somebody's house early in the morning and frightened the living daylights out of people it can go wrong. Haven't got much time for Grayling man speaks with a false tong. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 5 Apr 18 19:22   78yo Arrested for Murder - Bromptonaut

>> Haven't got much time for Grayling man speaks with a false tong. Yup. You can add the attempt to please the crowd about self defence to his numerous other failings as Lord Chancellor. Legal Aid cuts, prisoners' books, privatisation of probation are just starters for 10. God knows I hold no brief for Michael Gove but at least he understood the constitutional significance of the job. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 00:16   78yo Arrested for Murder - smokie

SWMBO alerted me to the Mail article where they've dredged up some background on the "victim". www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5580925/Pensioner-78-stabbed-burglar-bailed.html Karma! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 00:26   78yo Arrested for Murder - rtj70

>> Karma! I agree. He's gone into a home with a weapon and threatened someone. They have fought back and the younger guy died from an injury from some sort of weapon, possibly the screwdriver. If I was the pensioner then I'd feel happy I'd protected my loved one. I'd see out the judicial process. Not nice for him to go through but they should not have broken in. I know of someone who was woken up when he heard someone (might have been two) downstairs in the middle of the night. Someone had broken in and had a knife. Family upstairs so a bit of an altercation and then he chased them out of the house and down the road... in his underwear. Could have gone badly wrong because they had a knife but thankfully fled when confronted. Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 6 Apr 18 at 00:27 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 19:25   78yo Arrested for Murder - Robin O'Reliant

The outcome that was a dead cert - www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/06/man-arrested-over-fatal-stabbing-of-intruder-released Though it didn't stop the tabloids whipping their readers into a foam mouthed frenzy about the justice system being on the side of criminals. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 20:18   78yo Arrested for Murder - Manatee

I wonder if that will be followed by a campaign for justice for the dead burglar? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 20:24   78yo Arrested for Murder - Robin O'Reliant

>> I wonder if that will be followed by a campaign for justice for the dead >> burglar? >> Most people seem to think that's what he got. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 6 Apr 18 20:37   78yo Arrested for Murder - rtj70

He went into the house armed with a screwdriver. We don't know if that was what stabbed him. Had he not gone in we all know this would not have happened. Scotland Yard and the CPS made the right and only decision. Shame the old chap had to go through the ordeal of being arrested - he will be shaken up enough from the incident. And some on here were insisting it was similar to the Tony Martin case - clearly not then. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 20:46   78yo Arrested for Murder - Haywain

"And some on here were insisting it was similar to the Tony Martin case" How do you know that Mr Vincent wasn't on his way out? Presumably, you had a quick word with him before he croaked? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Apr 18 22:42   78yo Arrested for Murder - rtj70

>> How do you know that Mr Vincent wasn't on his way out? Because he was in the kitchen fighting the 78 year old with a screwdriver in his hand. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 7 Apr 18 10:19   78yo Arrested for Murder - Haywain

"Because he was in the kitchen fighting the 78 year old with a screwdriver in his hand." Apart from yourself, were there any other witnesses? Reply to this message | Report message       5

New Sat 7 Apr 18 10:28   78yo Arrested for Murder - R.P.

Right decision to arrest (to preserve evidence) - right decision not to charge. We only know what's reported in the media - not the detail. CPS won't take any notice of the Daily Mail or Express. Move on. Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 7 Apr 18 at 10:28 Reply to this message | Report message