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Continuing debate
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 20 Mar 18 at 10:18
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Very similar to the Irish issue in some ways:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/10/gibraltar-eu-britain-european-union-empire-brexit
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 10 Mar 18 at 12:22
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Good article.You can make any issue as complex or as simple.The saying where there is a will there is a way.
Continental Europe knows the Brits took a vote and that was out of a system they stopped believing in.We can discuss why for ever it is a fact.
If we go back to the original question what do Brexiteers want.They wanted out of the E.U.No more East European immigration.Fishing rights around the British coast.And laws who should be deported or not decided by British courts.
No more cutoms union and internal market with the E.U.How do to this without to much damage to the British economy is the question.
Maybe leave without any agreement and start fresh.Worl trade rules or whatever.There has to be a compromise .Just my humble opinion for what it is worth.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/11/migrants-claim-4bn-year-benefits-new-report-claims/
>>
Rabid Brexit paper run by tax cheats in an offshore tax haven of their own making, quoting stuff from a Rabid brexiteer.
Real news please.
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>> Rabid Brexit paper run by tax cheats in an offshore tax haven of their own
>> making, quoting stuff from a Rabid brexiteer.
And using statistics created by Migration Watch. Even then they're still net contributors but getting 20% of their tax back compared with 16% average. Given migrants are grossly over represented in the lowest wage quartile it's hardly surprising they claim more Working/Child Tax Credit or Housing Benefit than average indigene.
>> Real news please.
Oh Yes!!!
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www.theguardian.com/money/2018/mar/12/london-property-prices-plunge-as-brexit-effect-deepens
Is it good news in spite of Brexit or because of Brexit? :-)
Last edited by: movilogo on Mon 12 Mar 18 at 11:54
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>> Is it good news in spite of Brexit or because of Brexit? :-)
Ignoring Brexit, Is it good new or bad news
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Mar 18 at 12:43
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>> Ignoring Brexit, Is it good new or bad news
Suspect it's an 'adjustment' in an overheated market.
Good news for homebuyers - provided effect is not limited to the stratospheric end of the price range. Could be very bad news for developers and investors if new builds stop selling.
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>> >> Ignoring Brexit, Is it good new or bad news
>>
>> Suspect it's an 'adjustment' in an overheated market.
>>
>> Good news for homebuyers - provided effect is not limited to the stratospheric end of
>> the price range.
Is it? I suspect not. The UK is a services/retail economy. A period of property price crashes deflates the buying power in the retail market, the more severe the crash, the more severe the economic slump. The negative equity effect extends the period of the economic slump.
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In his speech to Lib Dems spring conference Vince Cable referred to older voters being for Brexit and extent to which nostalgia for a time when passports were blue, faces white and large areas of the map still pink.
HE's now accused of racism:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/12/vince-cable-denies-calling-brexit-supporters-racist
Is he guilty?
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nostalgia for a time when passports were blue, faces white.
First time i read i read it the other way around. I had this mental imagine of avatar land :-)
>>
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/12/vince-cable-denies-calling-brexit-supporters-racist
>>
>> Is he guilty?
I know he wouldn't have said it about any other group and if he had he'd be resigning this morning.
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>> Is he guilty?
No because he's commending on a lot of the people who voted for Brexit and they do think that.
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Actually, the vast majority don't think that so yes, he is guilty.....of being just as ill-informed as you rtj.
Pat
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>> Actually, the vast majority don't think that so yes, he is guilty.....of being just as
>> ill-informed as you rtj.
He never mentioned the majority Pat. What he said, contrasting voting patterns between youngsters and over 65s, and referring to the latter group:
Too many were driven by a nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white, and the map was coloured imperial pink,â€
He added that their votes were
crushing the hopes and aspiration of the young for years to come
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>> Actually, the vast majority don't think that so yes, he is guilty.....of being just as
>> ill-informed as you rtj.
As you have no idea what the vast majority of brexiteers thought, you are equally ill informed.
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>>you are equally ill informed.<<
You are of course entitled to your opinion.
It is, however, completely incorrect.
Pat
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I never said majority Pat. Re-read my post. I said 'a lot' and I never quantified that and certainly did not say majority. Picking arguments and fault again I see.
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>>Picking arguments and fault again I see.<<
Voicing an opinion which differs from yours......but accuse away, someone usually does when I post anything!
Isn't that what this thread has been trying to get me to do from the start?
Pat
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>> Actually, the vast majority don't think that so yes, he is guilty.....of being just as
>> ill-informed as you rtj.
>>
>> Pat
Vast majority, no. Significant minority, yes.
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>>Vast majority, no. Significant minority, yes<<
That of course, is just a matter of one person's opinion and depends largely on whether you voted to leave or remain.
Glass half full or half empty?
Pat
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>> That of course, is just a matter of one person's opinion and depends largely on
>> whether you voted to leave or remain.
>>
>> Glass half full or half empty?
>>
>> Pat
I disagree.
Look at the voting demographics. According to YouGov) there was a 56/44 leave/remain vote split in the 50-64 age group, and a 61/39 split in the 65+ age group. In the 25-49 group it was an exact reversal of the 50-64 vote, and a whopping 25/75 split in the under 25s.
In other words, the majority of people over the age of 50 wanted to leave, and the majority of people under the age of 50 wanted to remain. You have to ask yourself why this was, and much as I don't like Vince Cable or the Lib Dems, I do think his point has some validity.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 09:04
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>> Look at the voting demographics. According to YouGov) there was a 56/44 leave/remain vote split
>> in the 50-64 age group, and a 61/39 split in the 65+ age group. In
>> the 25-49 group it was an exact reversal of the 50-64 vote, and a whopping
>> 25/75 split in the under 25s.
>>
>> In other words, the majority of people over the age of 50 wanted to leave,
>> and the majority of people under the age of 50 wanted to remain. You have
>> to ask yourself why this was, and much as I don't like Vince Cable or
>> the Lib Dems, I do think his point has some validity.
Tinyurl link to New Statesman:-
tinyurl.com/y7zgfamv
Younger, wealthier, better educated people voted Remain.
Older, lower income etc people voted Leave.
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>> Tinyurl link to New Statesman:-
>>
>> tinyurl.com/y7zgfamv
>>
>> Younger, wealthier, better educated people voted Remain.
>> Older, lower income etc people voted Leave.
Numbers like that are OK for doing calculations. It is not valid IMO to make the statements above about large groups of people - it is akin to racism.
While we are talking about significant minorities, a significant minority (>40%) of 50 year olds voted remain.
The "education" trend is I suspect largely a proxy for age and possibly wealth. I'm 64. Probably 70% of my contemporaries went to secondary modern schools and around half of those will have left at 15, hence will have few formal qualifications. It does not mean they are idiots.
It is unhelpful to generalise about people, their legitimate choices and their reasons for them. It is certainly no substitute for understanding the issues.
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>> Younger, wealthier, better educated people voted Remain.
>> Older, lower income etc people voted Leave.
Let's try to put things into context.
1. The URL which describes the story, said that poll was conducted on eve of referendum day and it actually gave Remain a lead! So, we can't conclude that [a] sample was good enough [2] it was accurate by any means.
2. Educate/undateducated and wealthy/poor etc. do not matter - because everyone has only one vote - that's democracy. There is no weightage for being better educated or wealthy.
3. Better grades at academics do not equate to future success. Academic grades indicate Academic Intelligence where as in real life, success depends heavily on Emotional Intelligence (which usually grows over time and often aged people have better EQ than younger people). Hence, it can be argued that older people were better at predicting future and thus voted to leave and younger people had less matured thought process so they were more influenced by biased media and voted to remain.
4. A significant number of well educated and wealthy people voted to Leave and similarly, a big number of poor/less educated people voted to Remain.
5. Referendum was a democratic vote. Both sides lied, scare mongered and tried to influence people to their favour - there is nothing wrong in that.
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>> 4. A significant number of well educated and wealthy people voted to Leave and similarly,
>> a big number of poor/less educated people voted to Remain.
You don't know that, no-one does, its purely guesswork on your part.
>> 5. Both sides lied, scare mongered >> - there is nothing wrong in that.
You think? I would think most people would think there is everything wrong with that.
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>> >> Younger, wealthier, better educated people voted Remain.
>> >> Older, lower income etc people voted Leave.
>>
>> Let's try to put things into context.
1. I've already posted about the polls
2. If you've got a professional, political or academic interest in how the surprise outcome came about then breakdowns are absolutely key to understanding the result. They're also key to understanding what voters want next.
3. Not getting too involved in this one. It seems to be a fact, provable by research, that people in the (obviously overlapping) groups of educated beyond GCSE or A level, well off and young were more likely to be remain and that the reverse applied to those (again overlapping) groups without post school ed, who are less well off and older.
4. You don't know this.
5. Leave lied, demonstrably so and on multiple occasions. £350m for the NHS was only the biggest whopper. Remain scaremongered disgracefully. I suspect the biggest regret of Cameron and Osborne is that they didn't fight a positive and upbeat campaign. But project fear had worked for then in 2010 and again in 2015 (arguably in the Indyref too) so it's no surprise they tried the same tactic again.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 16:59
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>> 2. If you've got a professional, political or academic interest in how the surprise outcome
>> came about then breakdowns are absolutely key to understanding the result.
Also, unfortunately, key to misunderstanding and misrepresenting it.
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>> Leave lied, demonstrably so and on multiple occasions. £350m for the NHS was only the biggest whopper.
That £350m NHS thing sounds like a broken record. There is no proof that people were influenced by that claim. Most would have voted for Leave anyway whether the claim was made or not or even if it were £500m or £1b.
It is analogous to saying celebrity pictures in magazines are airbrushed and they actually don't look that good in real lives :-)
The only reason Leave won because people treated it as if it were a referendum on whether to control EU immigration.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Mar 18 at 01:55
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>> The only reason Leave won because people treated it as if it were a referendum
>> on whether to control EU immigration.
Sure that's true for some, you included that even though you're an immigrant yourself, albeit by a different route. It's difficult though to avoid line that you're thinking is 'I'm alright jack, pull up the ladder'
It might just have been the 2% of floaters that determined the result were solely decided by 'too many Poles'. OTOH they might have swallowed the 'how much it's costing' line. That, rather than migration, was decider for my neighbour over the road.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Mar 18 at 01:55
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There maybe other information/intelligence - human or electronic ?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Mar 18 at 01:55
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Of course, You Gov!
The ones who gave Remain a four-point lead on the eve of the vote:)
Pat
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>> Of course, You Gov!
>>
>> The ones who gave Remain a four-point lead on the eve of the vote:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Bit of difference between predicting a vote and analysing the statistics afterwards, predicting is a mug's game, analysing is maths and sometimes a bit of opinion.
eg to say that young, wealthy, better educated people voted one way is to try to combine statistics on 3 different influences and apply a good bit of opinion.
Did they vote that way because they are a.Young, b.Wealthy or c.Better educated ?
I don't think Vince Cable's remarks were racist but they are certainly arrogant, opinionated and presumptive and certainly only loosely based on the statistics.
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>> Of course, You Gov!
>>
>> The ones who gave Remain a four-point lead on the eve of the vote:)
I don't think any of the main polling companies called the outcome anywhere near right.
Nobody expected the result to be leave, not even the campaigners themselves.
Nigel Farage had conceded but said the fight continues. Michael Gove had gone to bed, only found out when result was known and his phone went mad. Same, IIRC, with Boris. The latter kept his head down on the Friday and when seen looked pale and shocked, like the boy who's played with fireworks and burned the school down.
Why the polling was wrong is a matter of continuing interest and is one reason matter continues to be debated.
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>> Nobody expected the result to be leave, not even the campaigners themselves.
But some of us thought leave had a real chance because we saw something that nearly everyone else missed. The heavy money being wagered on remain dwarfed that bet by leavers which made remain appear as strong favourites according to the bookies. But the important statistic, that those same bookmakers were saying that a lot more punters were putting their 50p on a leave vote told a very different story.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Mar 18 at 01:52
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"But some of us thought leave had a real chance because we saw something that nearly everyone else missed. "
I suspect that what was missed was the parallel between the Scottish Independence referendum and the EU referendum. In the former, the unpleasant side that spouted rudeness and insults actually lost - many people who voted to stay didn't make their true thoughts known because they didn't fancy a barrage of insults. In the EU referendum, the blathering insultiloons lost again for the same reason. Since the referendum, I have noted that the prime symptom of Bremainia is righteous unpleasantness.
How not to win friends and influence people........
1. Ignore their concerns.
2. Call them ignorant bigots (thank you G Brown).
3. Call them racist scumbags etc
.......... then ask them to vote for your ideas!
Ha ha ha ha hahhhhh!
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Enjoy your gloat HW, because you're sure as eggs not going to get what you voted for.
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I agree Lygonos. Those who wanted us to leave will not get anything like they hoped for because of the damage to the UK economy. But damage is still to be expected.
At least some people who voted to leave won't be disappointed - they are dead. That's based on one relative of my wife's voting leave who died last summer (voted leave partially because of bananas - really!) and one in the papers I recall that died before the referendum but his family still posted his postal vote.
It will be what it is. We can't influence anything unless there is another election.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 23:11
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>>because you're sure as eggs not going to get what you voted for<<
I see Lygonos and rtj are now demonstrating the next layer of Remainers 'saving face' tactics!
It's really quite amusing watching back peddling, not just on here but in the Press and in politics.
Since no-one knows what we voted for, and certainly was never prepared to listen other than to declare us racists, it's quite possible a crystal ball may have been used for that statement.
rtj knows a couple of people who have died since they voted to leave.....well, that changes things dramatically, doesn't it?
Should we have a re-count?
Unbelievable, but entertaining to watch the squirming from the ones who lost the vote:)
Pat
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"Enjoy your gloat HW"
Two points, if I may.....
1. I note that you do not disagree with my observations.
2. I am certainly not gloating - I understand that few divorces are without pain.
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"No because he's commending on a lot of the people who voted for Brexit and they do think that."
IMO, Pat should be congratulated on trying to make sense of that sentence(?).
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Maybe I didn't read the Guardian report carefully enough but I didn't see where it said hi speech was racist.
It was certainly guaranteed to leave him at the bottom of a large hole of his own making.
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Liberal Democtrat's usual position on things of late. I read it in the Guardian's report as well. I didn't see anything racist in it either, plenty have done though.
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This will please everyone.... a repost from the Telegraph website:
Britain could still be paying off the Brexit bill it has agreed with Brussels into the 2060s, according to estimates made by the Office for Budget Responsibility.
The OBR’s assessment of the UK economy, published alongside Philip Hammond’s Spring Statement, suggests that the vast majority of the estimated £37bn divorce settlement agreed with the European Union will be paid by the end of the 2020s.
But it predicts that the UK could continue to hand over cash to the bloc until 2064 as it fulfils its pension liabilities. That means the UK could spend approximately the same amount of time settling the Brexit bill as it has spent as a member of the EU.
At least if this ongoing payment is for pensions then we can't be too displeased because the alternative is to pay what we owe towards pensions in a few years time.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 16:36
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The previous volume mentioned effect on airlines like Ryaniar and Easy Jet operating trans EU.
Noticed while watching FR24 recently that services I'd expect to be operated by UK registered aircraft (ie anything not involving their Swiss subsidiary) were being flown by aircraft with Austrian registrations.
Looks as though a significant portion of their fleet is being transferred to a company called Easy Jet Europe set up in July last year. Nearly 80 A319/A320 machines off the UK register and onto Austria's.
www.planespotters.net/airline/easyJet-Europe
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 17:19
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The view from Hong Kong
m.scmp.com/frontpage/hk
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 15 Mar 18 at 14:14
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This is why I admire the American military sooo much. Just as well they behaved better in Iraq and Afghanistan.
www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2137372/my-lai-massacre-day-us-troops-slaughtered-504-unarmed
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Me, White male, 63 years old, retired, married, son left home, financially independent of the state.
You need to convince me that brexit is worthwhile.
There are only really two logical valid ways this can be achieved.
1/ That the EU has in the past somehow (actually, not theoretically), deprived me of something.
2/ My life will in some way, any way, (actually not theoretically), better outside the EU in the future.
Input from brexiteers not required it would merely muddy the field of what is a simple request.
You'll have to put up with me being the judge of if you are correct or not, as I am the only one who can say if I have been affected. And the question is, whats in it for me.
Off you go.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 16 Mar 18 at 19:58
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>>> Input from brexiteers not required it would merely muddy the field of what is a
>> simple request.
Do you mean brexiteers or remoaners?
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I did of course mean remoaners, thank you for the correction and clarifications.
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>> I did of course mean remoaners, thank you for the correction and clarifications.
On that case I'll sit on my hands and watch :-)
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I can't predict the future, so I suggest you wait twenty years then come back and tell us.
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>> I can't predict the future, so I suggest you wait twenty years then come back
>> and tell us.
>>
....who's arranging the seance.............?
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So far we have two don't knows.
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As your health fails (hopefully quite a few years yet), you will benefit from the extra billions spent on the NHS which would otherwise have headed east.
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> ....who's arranging the seance.............?
>>
I'd like to think it would be jim bowen.
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So thats three don't knows
and
A vastly improved NHS? Its not something the EU has prevented me from having in the past as its managed to provide for and service all my medical needs admirably to date. So based on that its not an improvement. But if its a promise to look after me better than it would have done in the future I'll take that as a benefit. I suspect it won't happen tho.
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One of the biggest EU gripes I heard during the referendum was the cost to the UK. IF our economy remains strong, that's more money for the NHS (I read that on the side of a bus) and hopefully social care and supporting the vulnerable in OUR society.
Agree it's a big if.
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>> One of the biggest EU gripes I heard during the referendum was the cost to the UK. IF our
>> economy remains strong, that's more money for the NHS (I read that on the side of a bus)
Is that a wind-up?
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Sorry RTJ, you are a known remoaner, and can't promise me anything from Brexit so no opinion from you in here pleasingthankyou
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>> > ....who's arranging the seance.............?
>> >>
>>
>> I'd like to think it would be jim bowen.
>>
...well that might answer Z's question "whats init for me" (sic)
.....his bus fare home! ;-)
(I suspect that's as good an answer as he will get)
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> ...well that might answer Z's question "whats init for me" (sic)
>>
>> .....his bus fare home! ;-)
>>
>> (I suspect that's as good an answer as he will get)
You never know he might get lucky and win the speedboat. Although probably not he doesn't live in Walsall.
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"whats init for me me me" .. similar to the jockdoc, money money money.
I, and many others voted Leave for this once-great country to gain its independence from the over-bureaucratised European Union, and to be able to make our own way in the world once again.
As far as me and money are concerned, well, I'm prepared to take a 'hit', in whatever form that comes - for the greater good of this country - in the long term.
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Brexit will force you to think intellectually, it will keep your brain cells active by researching, numerical analysis, debate etc. Without Brexit you would not have done it. Without it your life would be dull.
Hence, Brexit will prevent you from dementia.
:-o)
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Without it
>> your life would be dull.
>>
They say there's nothing new under the sun, but...
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I would like to think you'll enjoy greater availability of fantastic British/Scottish farm produce as a side-effect of slightly stickier cross-border trade.
The French might think they make great cheese but ours is better!
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Since you wish the country to achieve “greatness†and “independence†I would like we to know how you define those things?
Give us an example of which countries are currently “greatâ€. Are any of these “great†countries, United States, Russia, China, France, Finland or Denmark?
What do you mean by independence. We currently have many treats and obligations with the outside world. The United Nations and NATO spring to mind as we will inevitably have to trading agreements with the EU . You have already said you are happy to be in a Customs Union with the EU. When do you think was the last term The UK was independant? 1900, 1914, 1939, 1956 or 1973?
How does not having the right to live and work anywhere in the EU make us more independant?
Curious of Norwich.
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Brexit will free you from all of these tedious discussions of what will, might or should happen and then free to criticise what has happened.
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"Curious of Norwich"
You are James O'Brien and I claim my 5€
I know the 'Great' in Britain was used to differentiate it from lesser Britain (Brittany) but; looking back at the history of the British Islands I think I can refer to this country as being great, and I would like Britain to stay that way - independent of the European behemoth.
Being in or out of the customs union / single market wouldn't affect me personally but, that would obviously come with strings attached, such as open borders and kowtowing to EU laws to some extent so, we'll have to see what Teresa the appeaser comes up with over the coming weeks and months before Independence Day, baring in mind that any deal will have to be voted on by parliament, most of whom are determined to wreck Brexit.
We are all entitled to our view and our vote on Brexit - the remainers lost and some whilst not liking the result accept democracy. Others in their arrogance think democracy means that only their view counts and only they know what is best for the Country. Shame they can't accept the vote and put as much effort into showing a united front and ensuring we get the best deal we can, instead of the converse. Then perhaps we will remain Great.
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Any informed opinion as to how the £-€ exchange rate will be affected by Brexit ? It won’t alter my plans, it is what it is, just curious.
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>> I know the 'Great' in Britain was used to differentiate it from lesser Britain (Brittany)
>> but; looking back at the history of the British Islands I think I can refer
>> to this country as being great, and I would like Britain to stay that way
>> - independent of the European behemoth.
>>
>> Being in or out of the customs union / single market wouldn't affect me personally
>> but, that would obviously come with strings attached, such as open borders and kowtowing to
>> EU laws to some extent so, we'll have to see what Teresa the appeaser comes
>> up with over the coming weeks and months before Independence Day, baring in mind that
>> any deal will have to be voted on by parliament, most of whom are determined
>> to wreck Brexit.
How will being independent of the European behemoth make a difference - to you or anybody else?
How has kowtowing to EU laws affected you, or any one you know, personally or in their business?
What specific benefits, rather than aspirations to greatness, will come from the hard (presumably) Brexit Parliament is trying to wreck by keeping us aligned etc?
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>>How will being independent of the European behemoth make a difference - to you or anybody else?
>>How has kowtowing to EU laws affected you, or any one you know, personally or in their business?
>>What specific benefits, rather than aspirations to greatness, will come from the hard (presumably) Brexit Parliament is trying to wreck by keeping us aligned etc?
I know you mean well Brompt, but it's no good going over and over the same old ground. We had the in-out referendum and 'my side' won. Cameron did a runner and May is a patsy being pushed around by Juncker, Barnier, and Tusk. Where it/we will end up gawd above only knows, although I feel sure that a deal will be done, pleasing neither Remain or Leave. Maybe that's the best outcome really being the vote was 48/52.
In the final analysis, Cameron should never have called for a referendum.
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My post had nothing to do with the naming of these islands. I was attempting to establish what you mean by greatness and when you last felt this country was "great". Personally I have no idea what being great mans in terms of a country. I was hopeful you could explain and give me an example of a "great" country.
Much the the same goes for "independence". It is in the modern world a fairly meaningless term. In or out of the EU our ability to act independently either militarily or economically are severely limited as we will inevitably find out in a post Brexit world. I fear you yearn for something unobtainable and in doing so reject much that is useful and beneficial to us all.
The best deal may of us feel would be to abandon this whole sorry idea and concentrate on what we can do to improve the lot of our citizens and which has nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever.
Health care needs drastic reform, our city centres are full of rough sleepers, the housing market situation is a complete mess, industrial farming continues to degrade our environment. These are all things that need to be addressed and have little or nothing to do with whether or not we are in the EU. At best it is is a huge distraction and at worst will severely our economic prosperity and consequently our ability to make the UK a better country to live in both for us and our children.
I think we all want the best deal possible. We just need someone to define exactly what that is. My personal belief is that the best deal would be to say in the EU but accepting that we have voted to leave then the best deal is the one that gives us something as close to that as possible such as the Norwegian option. Most Brexiteers however show little or no sign of compromise demanding something that Remainers feel very damaging to our future prosperity and therefore completely unacceptable to them.
The future seems bleak.
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>>The future seems bleak.
Bleak down 'ere already guvnor (snowing) Orf out with our Beauceron & Pointer, considering getting another dog!!! before the planes are grounded and the A2 / A20 gets blocked by all dem smelly lorries unable to cross the channel next year.
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Maybe it's just me then CG, as I see this country as being 'great' now, but more so in previous times when we had the largest empire in history and Britain was the foremost global power.
We saved Europe from the German war machine twice in the previous century (with a little help from our friends) I know about the great British victory of Nelson against the combined fleets of the French and Spanish Navies during the Napoleonic wars. I know about Wellington's great victory at Waterloo, but of course, we can't live today on past glories, and I am well aware of the mess this 'once-great' country is in, what with the ever-increasing homelessness, drug taking, alcoholism etc. etc and www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
I totally agree about that health care needs drastic reform and it is disgraceful that we have so many homeless people sleeping rough - but - being in the EU hasn't done anything to improve the situation and coming out of the EU won't change it either. The needs of the sick and vulnerable have been ignored or made a low priority for years and will continue to be so with changing governments blaming each other for the problems.
Our government doesn't inform us of all that takes place behind closed doors, so all we can really do is wait and see, bearing in mind that we are the 6th largest world economy and that if we do end up with a hard Brexit, it will adversely affect the EU too, so it's in their interest as well as ours to come up with an outcome which is agreeable to both the EU and the UK.
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>> converse. Then perhaps we will remain Great.
we have never been "great" certainly not in your or my lifetime, or my parents lifetime, "Great" ended in 1939, and has never and will never be "Great" EU or not.
On leaving the EU we need to get used to, and act like, an insignificant and unimportant country and cut out all this puffed up and boorish international bluster. We are the 6th biggest economy and have some clout because of the EU, not in spite of.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 19 Mar 18 at 16:05
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I find it shameful that the likes of you KEEP talking this country down, in fact I'm sick of it TBH.
*I* think Britain is great, and I suspect I'm not alone in that thinking. YOU, or anybody else, can't say where this great country would be if we had never been hoodwinked into joining the EEC/EC/EU, or how we will fare once we Leave: fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
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>> I find it shameful that the likes of you KEEP talking this country down, in
>> fact I'm sick of it TBH.
>> *I* think Britain is great, and I suspect I'm not alone in that thinking. YOU,
>> or anybody else, can't say where this great country would be if we had never
>> been hoodwinked into joining the EEC/EC/EU, or how we will fare once we Leave: fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
Nobody hoodwinked us into EEC etc. In sixties we were falling behind rest of Europe in measures of trade, productivity etc. No obvious means as to how our Victorian and subsequent greatness could be restored. Joining the Common Market was seen by majority of both major parties as way forward. Only De Gaulle's veto stopped us joining sooner.
How on earth, anchored off Europe, were we to achieve greatness alone. Frankly it was the EU or risking being a vassal of the US.
I know which I prefer.
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>> How on earth, anchored off Europe, were we to achieve greatness alone.
Invade some countries and rebuild the empire?
Interesting dog mentions Great Britain and not the UK. So are we to read into that he does not care about Northern Ireland? Or Gibraltar?
We are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not just GB.
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>> I find it shameful that the likes of you KEEP talking this country down, in
>> fact I'm sick of it TBH.
I'll take no lessons in shame from you. Your contribution to the UK's greatness is not exactly a shining example now is it.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 19 Mar 18 at 22:06
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>> As far as me and money are concerned, well, I'm prepared to take a 'hit',
>> in whatever form that comes - for the greater good of this country - in
>> the long term.
>>
So that's three don't know and 1 nothing
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Three don't knows, 1 financial pain, 1 intellectual brain ache, and so far the only good thing is the satisfaction of saying ITYS
Not selling it to me so far folks
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You will not be bound by stupid rules dreamt up by power hungry politicians in other countries, therefore you will feel freer, our armed sevices will not be swallowed up by a Unified Military Army controlled by Foreign despots, you should feel safer, all the billions of £ we give them would be available for this countries use, you might feel wealthier, and if you feel the need for any revolution you will only be up against 500 or so of our Politicians not 5000 or so all over europe, so you will have increased People-power! ;-)
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Friendly message to despots in Europe on your behalf.Some strange points devonite let's hope you are right.
It didn't take a army to cause big problems in a small British town just chemical poisening from a country which hate's our guts.Boris is off to Europe for support who are our ally's.
When a airplane was shotdown with all its passengers mostly Dutch by a Russian missile nothing much happened after that did it?
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>> You will not be bound by stupid rules dreamt up by power hungry politicians in
>> other countries,
>>therefore you will feel freer, our armed sevices will not be swallowed up
>> by a Unified Military Army controlled by Foreign despots, you should feel safer, all the
>> billions of £ we give them would be available for this countries use, you might
>> feel wealthier, and if you feel the need for any revolution you will only be
>> up against 500 or so of our Politicians not 5000 or so all over europe,
>> so you will have increased People-power! ;-)
None of that has affected me one Jot in the last 40 years (probably because it didn't happen)
The prospect of a revolution does however sound rather attractive. Just not JCs style please.
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>
>> As far as me and money are concerned, well, I'm prepared to take a 'hit',
>> in whatever form that comes - for the greater good of this country - in
>> the long term.
OK, so you were aware when you voted that there would be an economic hit. Under those circumstance I dont believe I gave you permission to steal from me. You can be prepared to take my hit for me, I'll send you my bill annually if thats ok with you.
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The BBC Wales politics site reports that Welsh ministers have decided to consult a large group of 7-11 year olds on their Brexit views.
I wonder what their issues will be..........................save our Kinder Eggs?
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It's their future...but as you say though
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>> The BBC Wales politics site reports that Welsh ministers have decided to consult a large
>> group of 7-11 year olds on their Brexit views.
....well, if the UK Prime Minister can do it...........
;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Mon 19 Mar 18 at 09:13
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>> ....well, if the UK Prime Minister can do it...........
>>
>>
>> ;-)
He loses his job.
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Teenagers should be involved more in politics not kids of eleven.Children usually think what they hear at home from their parents.
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I'm not 11, I don't like kinder eggs, kids should be seen but not heard.
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Well I heard a bunch of the target age Welsh children interviewed by the BBC. Fine kids they seemed to be. However among the gems were "we are leaving Brexit" and "we won't be able to travel anywhere after Brexit".
None of them really seemed to have much of a clue about it either way. Just like many adults then.
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Ah good, Keeping the Welsh west of the severn is an unexpected bonus of Brexit.
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We'll still be taking your taxes though !
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>> We'll still be taking your taxes though !
>>
If you could have completed the Celtic set and beaten them in the 6 nations it would have been the complete putting the English in their place season as well. :-)
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>> >> We'll still be taking your taxes though !
>> >>
>> If you could have completed the Celtic set and beaten them in the 6 nations
>> it would have been the complete putting the English in their place season as well.
>> :-)
Fear not we are dragging you out of Europe in our downward spiral.
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The vassal state known as Wales voted with their English overlords and masters to leave.
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Why? Votes are for using. The only people who should be ashamed are those who didn't vote without a good reason.
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No-one worth voting for is a good reason not to vote. Voting for the least worse is poor use of a vote.
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>> No-one worth voting for is a good reason not to vote. Voting for the least
>> worse is poor use of a vote.
I'd sort of agree but however good the labour, green, lib dem or even UKIP candidates here are the Conservative still gets elected.
The referendum was different, a binary choice. If you couldn't be arxed then you're part of the problem.
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What do "Brexiteers" want? - Next up; Gibraltar - Bromptonaut
