Earlier today it was reported that there was an incident in Salisbury with a man and a woman in their 20s/30s and this led to an A&E closure whilst it was decontaminated. It was rumoured that it might be Fentanyl (never heard of it).
This evening the man is now said to be in his 60s and an ex Russian spy! Substance still unknown but this looks a bit more worrying and now explains the police and fire brigade reaction.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43295134
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 5 Mar 18 at 18:20
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If its polonium-210 we know exactly who is responsible.
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>> If its polonium-210 we know exactly who is responsible.
Except this has made them ill very quickly. We might still know who is responsible.
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>> Except this has made them ill very quickly.
Umbrella, Pellet, Ricin?
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Doubt it would be fentanyl* - it's a rapid onset, short duration opiate - no reason for the pair to both be critical after 48 hours. Opiates are usually also rapidly reversible.
Ricin usually takes several hours to kick in and doesn't usually cause confusion.
* - the Russians certainly have previous for possibly fentanyl based incapacitants - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_hostage_crisis_chemical_agent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Methylfentanyl et al seem resistant to reversal with naloxone.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 6 Mar 18 at 20:25
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Exactly what I was going to say about fentanyl, it's used every day if you have a GA (in liquid form) and easily reversible with the right drugs.
All this bad press about it slowly filters through to us when it's being used legitimately and patients worry when we mention it in the anaesthetic room, same happened when a certain famous person died using propofol.
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I presume fentanyl is broken down in the gut as it is used in the community in patches for slow release, and various (expensive) formulations for under the tongue or held against the inside of the cheek for rapid onset, short lasting pain relief in palliative care/cancer pain.
These funky derivatives make fentanyl look positively tame.
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What about a cocktail then?
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Are you asking me out on a date?
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looks like a nerve agent was used.
That'l be sarin or vx then. Both can only have been supplied, shipped, handled and administered by an agent of a state, with state sponsorship and support.
releasing a nerve agent in public place is serious stuff, at best an act of terrorism, at worse an act of war.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 7 Mar 18 at 18:02
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"That'l be sarin or vx"
Or vxFan. Moderated to death.
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>> Or vxFan.
Is there anything I don't get the blame for round here ;)
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>>That'l be sarin or vx then. Both can only have been supplied, shipped, handled and administered by an agent of a state, with state sponsorship and support.
Wasn't some sarin released by extremists on the Japanese underground? Are you saying that was state sponsored?
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>> Wasn't some sarin released by extremists on the Japanese underground? Are you saying that was
>> state sponsored?
Yeah, and they all copped sarin poisoning.
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>> looks like a nerve agent was used.
>>
>> That'l be sarin or vx then. Both can only have been supplied, shipped, handled and
>> administered by an agent of a state, with state sponsorship and support.
>
Neither Sarin or VX apparently. A rarer nerve agent apparently according to the police.
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>>
>> Neither Sarin or VX apparently. A rarer nerve agent apparently according to the police.
>>
...probably "Buckie".....
;-)
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43344725
It seems that the police need some more help. More than likely joint cbrn regiment.
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Was kind of down that way yesterday, passing by Porton Down as well. Lot of very unusual vehicles equipped with blue lights flying around.
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Steel grey Huyndai van with built in blue lights and police car escort, three black MB vito's in convoy with built in blue lights and motocyle escort, grey VW Passat estate with blue lights, red XF sport brake with blue lights.
That kind of thing, unusual makes of official cars with blue lights.
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Nearly as odd as a police convey and an unmarked BMW X5 coming out of Manchester back in October. Motorcycles (about 3 pairs) would zoom ahead and close junctions for the convoy to proceed (not speeding) and repeat for all the junctions. I saw them do this down most of the A5103 until they'll have got to the start of the M56.
Never did find out who might have been treated in that sort of special way and couldn't see into the unmarked X5 (which also had lights).
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It's funny that this sort of "trainspotting" activity by curious observers is in other circumstances exactly what constitutes spying.
If say you were part of a trade delegation in Russia and were caught making notes of unusual vehicle movements and so on you would be arrested, interogated, and quite possibly "turned".
Perhaps you have. :)
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They should move about more conspicuously. In my example. they were doing the speed limit. They just didn't want to stop at lights - so how important were they and why had they been in Manchester?
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>> It's funny that this sort of "trainspotting" activity by curious observers is in other circumstances
>> exactly what constitutes spying.
The plane spotters in greece spring to mind. I think they ended up in prison for a bit. Happened about 10 years ago i think.
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>> The plane spotters in greece spring to mind.
Lots of Greek airports are also military. One we use on a regular basis is Preveza - hence a long runway. You see the protected building for the aircraft. No doubt they are all obsolete.
On Lesvos you have some military bases you'd want to avoid too - but this is all close to Turkey. There's an old runway in the middle of Lesvos too that crosses a main road :-)
goo.gl/maps/M6B3RG1YEkR2
It's only about a kilometre long.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 9 Mar 18 at 17:22
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Longer ago than you think - 2001!
Kalamata Airport in the Peleponnese which is shared with the military.
Absolute idiots. Greeks are a bit paranoid about their military establishments . Taking a picture of anything military will land you in trouble
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 9 Mar 18 at 17:25
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Absolute idiots. Greeks are a bit paranoid about their military establishments . Taking a picture
>> of anything military will land you in trouble
>>
Got to get those tail numbers though!
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>> Got to get those tail numbers though!
Does that mean with websites/apps like FlightRadar these plane spotters just stay at home now?
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Does that mean with websites/apps like FlightRadar these plane spotters just stay at home now?
>>
I still regularly see quite a few, especially when the good weather comes around. They come out of the woodwork then, thousands of 'em.
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>> Does that mean with websites/apps like FlightRadar these plane spotters just stay at home now?
>>
Absolutely not. No. I haven't collected registrations, at least not in the sense of crossing them off in a book, for 35+years. Record the odd one if it's unusual or I'm uncertain as to type and want to research background or machine's history. You will though still find me on a sunny day at the perimeter fence with binoculars and a scanner radio. Taking my daughter to Stansted next month and will make a day of it if the weather's fine. Off up to East Mids in next few days combining checking something a Donington Park for a fellow C4Per with a walk round the perimeter of the airport.
Usage of FR24 is an interesting thought.
Back in my own spotting day 'dot watching' and recording planes as seen if you'd only identified them by radio callsign was regarded as cheating. You had to be able to read the number off the fuselage or at least clearly identify the beast and it's colour scheme. For those of us who lived near Leeds Bradford airport counting something we'd seen on approach/climbout was OK. Ticking off Manchester flights which came over south Leeds at ten thousand feet plus, even something as distinctive as the Guppies that flew airbus parts in/out, was treated as playing fast and loose.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 10 Mar 18 at 10:15
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It’s strange really. I worked for 30 years in the aviation insurance industry and have absolutely no interest in the wretched things and have difficulty telling one from another. Just lumps of metal with a value as far as I was concerned.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 9 Mar 18 at 18:57
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>> It’s strange really. I work d for 30 years in the aviation insurance industry and
>> have absolutely no interest in the wretched things and have difficulty telling one from another.
I guess you wouldn't have 'worked with' them, I know people that have worked (hands on) with them and like you have absolutely no interest in them and no nothing about anything other than the type they have to.
Spotters were very few and far between, in those that work with aircraft, the ones that were, were seen as odd. Partiality because its a busmans holiday.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 9 Mar 18 at 19:03
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>> Steel grey Huyndai van with built in blue lights and police car escort, three black MB vito's in convoy with built in blue lights and motocyle escort, grey VW Passat estate with blue lights, red XF sport brake with blue lights.
>>
>> That kind of thing, unusual makes of official cars with blue lights.
>>
Interesting, thanks.
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Anyone else think the use of a toxin like this making it look like Russia is a bit odd?
If you're the Russians would you not make it look like some other state/person? Or do they want us to know it's them (if it is).
If they wanted him dead there are other ways that could look like accidents or crime/violence gone to far.
What if it's the UK or USA making it look like the Russians are behind it - only saying tongue in cheek. But who actually knows.
Whoever wanted him dead, could they have not just shot him for example? Or could it be he's tried to frame Russia and it's gone too wrong and he's more poorly than planned?
Just curious....
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 9 Mar 18 at 18:28
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I'd guess they want both us and former intelligence agents who turned to know it's them.
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Interestingly (maybe) last night I watched a re-run of a two part history programme called 'After Hitler' (sad I know), it simplistically shows how the utter utter devastation of WWII shaped Europe (parts of it brought a tear to my eye) and maybe gives an idea of why it feels as it does now, it showed how mass migration of persecuted populations (with mass killings) was still going into the late 40's and early 50's.
It also explained how Russia (USSR) after it lost so many people set out on a course of revenge....basically Russia has a very very long memory and will do anything to settle a score no matter what.
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Does this lethal Russian approach to foreign policy stretch any further back than the murder of Trotsky by an NKVD agent in Mexico in 1940?
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>> Does this lethal Russian approach to foreign policy stretch any further back than the murder
>> of Trotsky by an NKVD agent in Mexico in 1940?
Yes:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Russian_assassinations
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Zizzi have an exciting new menu on offer.
Toxic Tagliatelle.
Spaghetti in Sarin Sauce.
Polonium Pizza .
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People who were in the restaurant, pub and presumably some other places now being told to wash all items that could have come into contact as a precaution in case long term exposure to minor amounts is dangerous.
If an item of clothing cannot be machine washed then you are to double bag it and wait for further instructions.
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"wait for further instructions"
Flog it on Ebay.
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And a new dessert, Novichok Surprise.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856
Answers by Wednesday from the Russian ambassador, standard response no to deny everything.
Anyway, appropriate responses will be outlined later on in the week.
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I wonder if the original advice of 'there is no danger to the public' was based on an assumption this was a nerve agent like VX. Now it seems it is 10 times stronger, hence the help of the military and for people to wash items.
Maybe we were naive to say there was no danger at all. Lets hope those in hospital other than the indented target get better soon and I mean 100% okay. I'm not so sure about the recovery ex-spy and his daughter which is not good.... this poison might be too much to recover from.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856
>>
>> Answers by Wednesday from the Russian ambassador, standard response no to deny everything.
>>
>> Anyway, appropriate responses will be outlined later on in the week.
Its a red line thats been crossed, the 4th protocol in effect, importing and chucking nerve agents about in UK towns is a no-no. Militarily or globaly there is roger all we can do about it in response. Nato will be next to useless, similar the yanks.
Sieze all Russian funds, in whatever from, in the UK. That will kick a few of the movers and shakers in the Kremlin where it hurts.
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>> importing and chucking nerve agents about in UK towns
Probably find the person who imported this is the daughter. Russians being clever. As we know she returned from Russia the day before this all began. The probably hope she does not survive.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 12 Mar 18 at 23:22
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You think his daughter was some sort of unknowing courier?
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>> You think his daughter was some sort of unknowing courier?
>>
I read that was one theory. She came back from Russia on the Saturday and this happened on the Sunday. So could she have brought back a food item for example that the ate?
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All in plain sight.. Best way of hiding things.
Last edited by: Rudedog on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 12:20
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Yesterday Rex Tillerson US Secretary of State condemned Russia for this action. Today Trump sacked him.
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Yet another sacking by Trump - timing seems a bit odd. As you say Rex condemned Russia's actions yesterday.....
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Fair to say this had been a long time coming.
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The whole thing is baffling.
The official NATO response as expected is wishy washy but can hardly be otherwise since there is no proof, or likely to be unless somebody blabs.
The Russians are perfectly capable of knocking people off without using a nerve agent that, as far as anyone knows, was only produced by the Soviet Union. So why would they do it? It can only be because whilst they will deny it, they wish potential defectors or existing ones with secrets to be in fear of their lives should they step out of line.
Alternatively, they didn't do it. Given it was a Soviet thing, maybe this stuff was in one of the other former Soviet countries. It is conceivable that elements in Ukraine or Chechnya, for example, might be happy to make Russia look bad and a number of other former subject countries regard Russia as a threat.
By trying to look tough, May and Boris are on a hiding to nothing. Best just pick the phone up to Putin and agree a story rather than posture in public, which will end with a humiliating climb-down.
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>> Alternatively, they didn't do it. Given it was a Soviet thing, maybe this stuff was
>> in one of the other former Soviet countries. It is conceivable that elements in Ukraine
>> or Chechnya, for example, might be happy to make Russia look bad and a number
>> of other former subject countries regard Russia as a threat.
I'd completely missed that point, ie that USSR and Russia are not synonymous. If Skripal had rubbed up other ex Soviet states wrong way is it possible they also have access to this toxin?
But I'm just an observer, surely point must be evident to May and her advisers.
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Anyone who listened to the Today program this morning and the interview with the Russian MP Vittor Millonov will have no doubt as to the contempt with which Putin’s regime views the United Kingdom.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bbc-today-programme-russia-mp-uk-hitler-interview-poison-sergei-skripal-latest-a8253701.html
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 13 Mar 18 at 18:59
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> Alternatively, they didn't do it. Given it was a Soviet thing, maybe this stuff was> in one of the other former Soviet countries. It is conceivable that elements in Ukraine> or Chechnya, for example, might be happy to make Russia look bad and a number of other former subject countries regard Russia as a threat.
Possibly, but I think a lot of the chemical/biological weapons were kept on Russian soil or at least under their control. If some had been left over in an ex Soviet Republic, they are pretty tricky to keep viable. I'm not sure how many have such a capability?
>> By trying to look tough, May and Boris are on a hiding to nothing. Best just pick the phone up to Putin and agree a story rather than posture in> public, which will end with a humiliating climb-down.
Practical perhaps, however does that give them a green light? Are we just saying it's difficult for us to do anything, so you just crack on?
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There is another possibility, that the Russians didn't really care about Skripal that much but they wanted to throw their weight about. They have demonstrated, if we believe they did it, that they can do what they like on British/NATO soil.
The Western alliance is in a parlous state just now and it must be hard to resist a bit of sabre rattling when we have enough troubles of our own.
Pledges of solidarity from Obama, or any reasonably sane US president, would have meant something. Support from the Trump administration just asks the question "when will he change his mind".
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Just watching the latest news - so Russia "wants to see proof .... "
Well ok, fair enough then, - let's invite Mr. Putin to personally come over and look at the proof ......... in front of the World's Press. (even in the 10 day window that Russia is claiming it's entitled to, rather than the 24 hour timescale that TM has demanded)
P.S. - Sorry Vladimir, accept the invitation before midnight tonight, or loose complete face and admit guilt worldwide.
Then we will all know the truth, because we are NOT fools,
We KNOW when the car salesman says .. "one careful owner"
the estate agent says .. "compact and bijou"
car mech says .. "brake pads need changing"
plumber sucks teeth and says "burst pipe underground"
No disrespect to any trades mentioned, but the plumber will suss the car mech, and the estate agent will suss the car salesman
Big Question re "Substance" is - how far are we prepared to go to do something about it,
it's a game pf poker, (as per Trump and Kim J I)
.. What whould Winnie have said ?
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Winnie would have been pragmatic. And he would probably have spoken to Putin by now.
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The problem is, the soviet ex KGB - now called the FSK, is predominantly a criminal operation. Russia has lost control of most of its economy and security to the Russian Mafia. How much Putin is in control of, or creaming money out of that is unknown.
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So should we put a sample of the nerve agent in an envelope and send first class to Russia? How should we send such a sample I wonder?
Timing of the poisoning and the new 'unstoppable' missiles they announced and then demonstrated, e.g. the hypersonic missile which is capable of carrying a nuclear payload.
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To me, it just seems very, very odd that such a striking and easily traceable way of knocking someone off is allegedly used by a Russian agency.
I thought that they were more professional than that, particularly with an ex-KGB man at the helm.
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Assuming there is Russian involvement rather than someone getting hold of the poison, they must have intended to be found out and there is a threat there. Otherwise you'd have killed him in a much simpler way, say making it look like a robbery gone wrong.
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Putin is up for re-election and this gives him the opportunity to act like Billy Bigbaws in front of his nation.
The intention was to be found out in a manner that could be denied.
Simples.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 14 Mar 18 at 17:12
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I don't think Putin was ever in any danger of failing to be re-elected.
That's what strikes me as a further oddity.
(Of course I have heard the theory that internally he needs to be shown as a strong man, but I think that is how he is seen in Russia anyway.)
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Conspiracy Theory :)
It seems that the nerve agent is linked to Russia as it has a formula which points to them. As stated by our boffins. If it has an identifiable forensic chemical signature then can't that be reproduced???
Western Europe is said to be united in its condemnation of the use of a nerve agent in one of its member countries. That will be the Western Europe (Read EU) that Britain is on the verge of leaving.
If someone was desperate to suggest that the EU is stronger together, thereby suggesting that Britain would be better remaining in a big gang then what better way to scare it population into thinking that as a small isolated nation it would not be in its interests to be on its own when up against the might of Russia.
Hmmm? Possible novel?? :)
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"Western Europe is said to be united in its condemnation of the use of a nerve agent in one of its member countries. ..........."
I would never put too much reliance on that - when the chips are down it will be every man for himself. Remember how the French supported us at the time of the Falklands War ........ with their Exocet missiles?
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Remember how the French supported us at the
>> time of the Falklands War ........ with their Exocet missiles?
>>
Well they gave us quite a bit of information about the exocet and overflew the task force on the way down simulating likely attacks.
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I suspect he has an idealalogical
allegiance rather than a valid point
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>> I suspect he has an idealalogical
>> allegiance rather than a valid point
I assume that's an auto-correct issue and you mean ideological?
Idea that Jezza has political common ground with Russian government is so laughable it doesn't justify time Putin together a refutation.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 18 Mar 18 at 08:30
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I think he's saying he'd Czech first before issuing any strong statements or pointing the finger of blame. He enjoys being a rebel on the other side of general British government policy.
The article is fairly weak, do opposition groups in Russia really benefit, are they more likely to win, is putin less like to win now? Hardly.
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Domestically Putin is bound to win. Corrupt elections are one Soviet practice he has carried on.
Other point she makes is about complete lack of security around both nuclear and chemical/biological weapons sites in aftermath of USSR's collapse. At least some of that stuff was outside Russia in other republics. The possibility of it falling into hands of rogue states, terrorists or other criminals was regularly in news at time.
Russia obviously has both means and motive and is probably responsible - but it's not certain.
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Other point she makes is about complete lack of security around both nuclear and chemical/biological weapons sites in aftermath of USSR's collapse. At least some of that stuff was outside Russia in other republics. The possibility of it falling into hands of rogue states, terrorists
>> or other criminals was regularly in news at time.
It's quite complicated stuff to keep viable and then weaponise. I don't see many others with the capability to do so.
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>> Russia obviously has both means and motive and is probably responsible - but it's not
>> certain.
Motive is the key. Putin has the motive, it satisfies many of his criteria. Most despots need to whip up a nationalist fervour and divert attention from imprisoned legitimate rivals.
Motive was all too easily glossed over in the article.
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I think the point is (unless you are George Galloway) that Putin isn't the only person who benefits.
There was no danger of him losing the election; but sometimes just being a despot is probably reason enough for something like this.
May probably thinks she's done all right out of it so far, although I think it will come back to haunt her and Corbyn may well come out of it better in the end if his "helpers" don't balls it up.
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>> George Galloway adds his views.
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUJHZxgHm64
More than a hint of demagoguery about 'Gorgeous George' but he's a fine orator.
Interesting he posits the same question as Melanie McDonagh - cui bono (who benefits).
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>> Interesting he posits the same question as Melanie McDonagh - cui bono (who benefits).
Its a stupid question, its obviously clear who benefits in multiple ways.
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Good to hear from George Galloway.
I've followed him on the wireless for years, although I didn't realise he was back on talkradio as I can't receive that DAB station down 'ere, but will access it on-line in future as I like (listening to )Hartley-Brewer too.
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Couldn't think of much worse than listening to 'talk' radio, all full of their own opinions and gob almighties. All it needs is the listener phone in!
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>> Couldn't think of much worse than listening to 'talk' radio, all full of their own
>> opinions and gob almighties.
....like an aural version of here, then...... ;-)
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>> >> Couldn't think of much worse than listening to 'talk' radio, all full of their
>> own
>> >> opinions and gob almighties.
>>
>> ....like an aural version of here, then...... ;-)
>>
Only much worse.
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>> George Galloway adds his views.
And as today's Radio 4 Profile of RT (Russia Today) boss Margarita Simonyan reminded us, GG is on their payroll.
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Ah yes RT, A Kremlin funded pro Russian TV channel broadcast in the UK. I'm sure the BBC channel broadcast over Russian TV provides a good counter point.
Oh Wait. Its not allowed in Russia.
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Substance in Salisbury and Critical People - Zero
