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www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42649214
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 20 Feb 18 at 10:25
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Hahahaha. Can't help himself can he ?
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Let’s do it.
Next week. No need for canvassing and lies on either side. We all know whats involved now so let’s do it!
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I doubt that 5% of the populatio really understand the issues.
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>> I doubt that 5% of the population really understand the issues.
I'm sure that's true, but we probably know as much as we are ever going to know and banning any further campaigning would probably yield better informed result.
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Not really back, though, is he? It's just that the media thought something he said was worth reporting.
The man has no real influence - just a big mouth.
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No there shouldn't be another referendum at this stage. The likes of Farage, Clegg and Blair need to accept the outcome of the democratic process (surely Farage does as he got what he wanted?). Otherwise we deny democracy.
What there should be in due course is another referendum on the eventual outcome but we are clearly not at that point yet.
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>> No there shouldn't be another referendum at this stage. The likes of Farage, Clegg and
>> Blair need to accept the outcome of the democratic process (surely Farage does as he
>> got what he wanted?). Otherwise we deny democracy.
>>
>> What there should be in due course is another referendum on the eventual outcome but
>> we are clearly not at that point yet.
>>
Agree with that. Of course, in a truly democratic world, there should be one every few years - it could be like the hokey - cokey!
On a slightly different note. Current advice from our friends at HMRC is that if we are out of the EU then VAT will be payable on imported goods from the EU at the point of import.
Of course it can be claimed back (as appropriate) through returns but that will be a big hit to cash-flow or profits if a bond or bonded warehouse is used.
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No, there shouldn't be another referendum. We've had one, seen the largest total vote in UK history for or against the Brexit verdict and should accept the democratic decision.
The likes of the smarmy Blair trying, yet again, to try and change that decision by hook or by crook to suit his own and those of his ilk's agenda is, frankly, nauseating.
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>> The likes of the smarmy Blair trying, yet again, to try and change that decision
>> by hook or by crook to suit his own and those of his ilk's agenda
>> is, frankly, nauseating.
Except of course that 49% of the vote* shared his view. Frankly describing them as "ilk" makes you just as nauseating.
*And bare in mind that the majority of those eligible to vote did note vote for brexit.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Jan 18 at 21:33
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>>Except of course that 49% of the vote* shared his view.
And I'd bet about 49% of the referendum participants would like another referendum and about 51% would not.
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>> >>Except of course that 49% of the vote* shared his view.
>>
>> And I'd bet about 49% of the referendum participants would like another referendum and about
>> 51% would not.
who knows its one of those never ending arguments. Its done now we should leave. The country is now a laughing stock, it cant be repaired.
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Agreed.
And nothing will change anyway. Well, we won't be called members and we won't have a vote, but everything else will remain the same.
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>> Its done now we should leave.
>> The country is now a laughing stock, it cant be repaired.
Agree 100%. Rather than the swashbuckling, confident, outward looking country seeking greater sovereignty and self-determination that we pitched ourselves as to carry Brexit through, we look disorganised, chaotic and weak. I still think it's the biggest mistake the country will make in my lifetime, but we voted for it, and we need to go. Ideally with at least a shred of our dignity left intact.
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It doesn't help that we have a weak government and a weak PM who is being pushed around by ambitious rivals (who don't want her job quite yet...).
The Conservatives are already electioneering. I can't see this one lasting 5 years.
I don't think Farage's time will come, however.
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>>Except of course that 49 per cent of the vote....>>
You can obfuscate as much as you wish, but the fact remains that 48.1 per cent voted to Remain and 51.9 per cent to Leave in what was the largest number of people voting on any issue in the UK.
To add to that, 53.4 per cent in England voted to Leave and 46.6 per cent to Remain - pretty conclusive figures in this particular case.
Source:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results
I stand by what I said about Blair and those of his ilk - doing their utmost to try and overturn a democratic decision by whatever means necessary.
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>> >>Except of course that 49 per cent of the vote....>>
>>
>> You can obfuscate as much as you wish, but the fact remains that 48.1 per
>> cent voted to Remain and 51.9 per cent to Leave in what was the largest
>> number of people voting on any issue in the UK.
Not obfuscating, accepted the vote, didn't dispute the result, as I also accept that you are particularly offensive towards those who voted to remain.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 12:41
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Is it offensive now to point out someone is wrong?
Pat
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Who is wrong? about what?
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Frankly it doesn't matter what the % was, it could have been, say 20,000,000 remain and 20,000,001 leave, the result would be the same.
That's democracy.
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>> you are particularly offensive towards those who voted to remain.
I thought "Blair and his ilk" referred to people who wanted to overturn the result, not all people who voted remain.
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We were all generically tarred
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" you are particularly offensive towards those who voted to remain."
I must admit that I have generally found that the insults and nastiness have been expressed by the bitter remainers.
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Can't say I've noticed much difference between them.
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>> Can't say I've noticed much difference between them.
>>
absolutely there are those who have to get nasty about things on both sides of pretty much any topic on this forum
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>>I thought "Blair and his ilk" referred to people who wanted to overturn the result..>>
Spot on.
Long out of power in the UK but still trying desperately to change a result that doesn't suit their own particular ends.
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Why does Mr Blair have an elk?
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>>..as I also accept that you are particularly offensive towards those who voted to remain.>>
Offensive, for pointing out the truth? Wasn't me that conceived the original Remoaners tag...!!
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But you use it freely I see.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 17:53
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>> But you use it freely I see. >>
Yes, because it sums them up so accurately!!
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>> To add to that, 53.4 per cent in England voted to Leave and 46.6 per
>> cent to Remain - pretty conclusive figures in this particular case.
I see you also advocate the break up of the UK as well. I cant think of any other reason to crow about regional results.
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>>I see you also advocate the break up of the UK as well. I cant think of any other reason to crow about regional results. >>
No, that's something you've dreamed up and certainly not attributable to me. I was merely pointing out the even larger difference than the combined overall figures.
But when originally Scotland wanted to become independent I and a number of others with a lot of Scottish blood in our veins living in England wished it had become reality - they would have been left right in the fertiliser as a result of subsequent events...!!
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>> >>I see you also advocate the break up of the UK as well. I cant
>> think of any other reason to crow about regional results. >>
>>
>> No, that's something you've dreamed up and certainly not attributable to me. I was merely
>> pointing out the even larger difference than the combined overall figures.
Why? Why point out regional differences?
And you wish Scottish independence has happened?
And you still say you dont want the UK broken up?
Riiiiiight I see.
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>>And you still say you dont want the UK broken up?>>
Yet again you are attributing something that is not what I have stated. At that time the SNP was determined to get its long held (Salmond and sidekick Sturgeon wise) wish for Scotland to become independent.
Thankfully it failed, but if it had gone through then the situation would have been as I described.
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>> >>And you still say you dont want the UK broken up?>>
>>
>> Yet again you are attributing something that is not what I have stated.
To cut and paste your words
But when originally Scotland wanted to become independent I and a number of others with a lot of Scottish blood in our veins living in England wished it had become reality
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>>But when originally Scotland wanted to become independent I and a number of others with a lot of Scottish blood in our veins living in England wished it had become reality>>
Nice try, bu yet again you are obfuscating - your C and P very conveniently left out the rest of that sentence:
"- they would have been left right in the fertiliser as a result of subsequent events...!! "
As mentioned in another thread, the independent dreams of Salmond and sidekick Sturgeon would have been badly damaged by subsequent happenings.
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Obfuscating? All i am doing is quoting what you say.
I have no idea what you mean by "badly damaged by subsequent events" . What events are they? What damage? Forced into Brexit you mean? As you like to quote regional voting, you conveniently missed out on the fact the scots voted to stay in Europe
Now call this obfuscation if you wish, (your favourite word of the day it seems when your muddled and contradictory statements are exposed) but I am just following your statements to their logical conclusion.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 18:50
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>>I have no idea what you mean by "...badly damaged by subsequent events" >>
Probably because you continually fail to include the relevant parts of sentences such as, in this case, the fact that if independence had been gained, its success would have been hit hard by "subsequent events"
The subsequent events as I'm sure you will remember included the free fall in the price per barrel of Brent oil.
Nothing muddled about my statements if you'd just bother to read them properly, rather than put your own slant on them to suit your particular agenda.
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>>Probably because you continually fail to include the relevant parts of sentences
>>
Sorry? you will see I included that very phrase above, "subsequent events", exactly as you saw You even quoted it.
Short term memory issue at work here perhaps?
>> The subsequent events as I'm sure you will remember included the free fall in the
>> price per barrel of Brent oil.
<>
Oh right, can you say where, in this thread you said " price per barrel of oil" or even mention of the word oil. How is one supposed to read your threads properly when you don't actually say anything with any clarity.
Clearly some retention of long term memory at work that is brought into conversation randomly.
I know what my diagnosis would be.
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"yet again you are obfuscating"
Into a sock?
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>> "yet again you are obfuscating"
>>
>> Into a sock?
Fleshlight dave, get a fleshlight.
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What makes me laugh, is all the people who want to come out of the EU banging on about national sovereignty and "our" right to decide our country's future and returning power to the UK really don't want Scottish independence - a country, that incidentally, voted to remain in the EU. And whilst people hurl insults at Salmon and Sturgeon for being pro-independence, had, wait a minute a democratic mandate from their people to do so, it seems they want Brexit and a return to the right to self determination and a democracy that suits them. I'm with Zero, I voted remain but given the "will of the people" as expressed - let's get on with getting out.
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"What makes me laugh, is all the people who want to come out of the EU banging on about national sovereignty and "our" right to decide our country's future and returning power to the UK really don't want Scottish independence ........."
Then you can't be laughing very loudly, RP. The folk who I know who voted to leave say that if the Scots decide on independence, then so be it - a view, incidentally, stated by N Farage.
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>>a view, incidentally, stated by N Farage.
Well that hardly adds any credibility to it.
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"Well that hardly adds any credibility to it."
A rather silly statement.
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Silly? Do you believe Farage voicing a particular opinion adds credibility to it? I do not. Quite the contrary.
Even if you do believe he adds credibility, and surely you do not, you may disagree with my statement but I'm not sure what would make it silly.
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"Even if you do believe he adds credibility, and surely you do not, you may disagree with my statement but I'm not sure what would make it silly."
I merely added the comment re Farage's opinion to show that in respect of UK independence from the EU and Scotland's independence from the union, he was, at least, not being hypocritical.
Try not to be so tetchy and aggressive.
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For some reason I keep thinking of a small croquette, enclosed in pastry or rolled in breadcrumbs, usually baked or deep fried. You may not know, but it is filled with savory ingredients, most often minced meat or fish, and is served as an entrée, main course, or side dish
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 21:17
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"For some reason I keep thinking of a small croquette,............."
See a shrink.
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>> See a shrink.
A rather silly statement.
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>> What makes me laugh, is all the people who want to come out of the EU banging on about national sovereignty and "our" right to decide our country's future and returning power to the UK really don't want Scottish independence - a country, that incidentally, voted to remain in the EU.>>
It's the UK that is a member of the EU and it was an EU referendum that voted leave. The Scots % or the Yorkshire % or the Woking % is irrelevant.
And of course despite the EU referendum being on the cards the Scots voted to remain part of the UK, a vote incidentally we all should have been part of as it effects us all.
>> I voted remain but given the "will of the people" as expressed - let's get on with getting out. >>
So did I, as I have said before I voted remain though the country voted leave so let's get on and leave without procrastination.
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...but also without rushing purely to satisfy a restless populous. There is a lot to be done. Far more than anyone (excepting maybe one or two here) ever realised needed doing!! It needs to be done right!!!
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>>(excepting maybe one or two here)<<
I think you underestimate your fellow forum members.
Very diplomatic.
Pat
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Yes mine is, but you may find it a bit baggy for you.
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>>But when originally Scotland wanted to become independent I and a number of others with a lot of Scottish blood in our veins living in England wished it had become reality - they would have been left right in the fertiliser as a result of subsequent events...!!
Oh but instead we are now living in the land of milk and honey!!
I think I would have preferred to take a gamble on the indie rather than what we have now.
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Probably pretty solidly that those who 'lost' the vote would want another referendum and those that won, won't. Can't blame either side for that, really.
But what would it achieve? 7/10 of sod all, I would expect.
Its done. It was a cock up from start to finish, but it is what it is. Nobody will get what they want anyway.
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>> Of course it can be claimed back (as appropriate) through returns but that will be
>> a big hit to cash-flow or profits if a bond or bonded warehouse is used.
You mean like it is not charged on imports from not-in-the-EU China?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 01:42
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>>You mean like it is not charged on imports from not-in-the-EU China?
Companies that import from China will know about the fees and duties that they need to pay and duty and VAT is payable on goods imported from outside the EU.
Many companies either pay the duty and VAT up front then claim it back or use bonds or bonded warehouses as appropriate.
VAT can be claimed back on companies VAT return.
The issue relates to companies that are not used to importing from outside the EU and this will be something that they have to get used to and it will likely impact their cash-flow, costs and potentially profits.
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>> No there shouldn't be another referendum at this stage. .... Otherwise we deny democracy.
So we vote for the government once and thats it? we have the same one for 60 years?
Democracy is having a say as often as needed,
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Apparently Farage is now saying he does NOT want another referendum.
FFS, indeed!
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>> Apparently Farage is now saying he does NOT want another referendum.
>>
>> FFS, indeed!
>>
Bloke is a twit and an attention junkie. He probably noticed that he wasn't being mentioned in the news.
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"Apparently Farage is now saying he does NOT want another referendum.
FFS, indeed!"
Do try not to let the papers wind you up, FP. Let's face it, politics without Nigel has been terribly dull.
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>>
>> Democracy is having a say as often as needed,
>>
"needed" in whose definition?
Anyone who wants to change their mind? A majority of people who want to change their mind?
51% of people in a referendum who want to change their mind?
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The outcome could be quite different if the same referendum was held now.
I am sure that not everyone would vote the same way as previously if another referendum was held. More information is available now to assist more informed decisions.
As a result, a significant number would have seen the sense of the "other" view, and would vote differently.
There was also some study out the other day which said that considerably more of one "side" than the other (though I forget which) will have died since the previous referendum, and a new wave of young voters will have joined the electoral register.
So maybe one of the more sensible "needed" situations could be where a there has been potentially significant shift in the knowledge or, maybe more importantly, the constitution of the electorate.
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"the constitution of the electorate."
Yep - many of the wise elders will be dying off to be replaced by an increasing proportion of bright young things who believe that Mr Corbyn will pay off all their debts. We are, indeed, in trouble.
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How can Farage be so confident that a second referendum would show a better result for Brexiteers? It could well be worse.
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He doesn't care, he just wants to be involved and get lots of publicity again.
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I don't think Farage really wants another referendum, he's just making the point that if there was one then the majority in favour of leaving would be increased, and I think in that regard he's right.
I voted remain though I believe in democracy (and I don't believe in asking the question time and time again until you get the answer you want aka Sturgeon) so I reckon we should just get on and leave.
I also don't think that we are a laughing stock, from what I hear there are many people in the EU who are a little envious of the idea of repatriating powers and self determination.
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>> from what I hear there
>> are many people in the EU who are a little envious of the idea of
>> repatriating powers and self determination.
That is what make the situation so dangerous. As the German government put it, they want Brexit to be "as soft as possible, but hard enough to discourage other member states from wanting to follow suit"
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>>I don't think Farage really wants another referendum, he's just making the point that if there was one then the majority in favour of leaving would be increased, and I think in that regard he's right.
dunno. I reckon hey Wayne's bright young things could push the result to c52/48 the other way, and what then?
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what then is the same in or out. We, as a country have no credibility.
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I could point my finger at May and her team for that, or even Cameron for calling the referendum ... and not seeing it through. But blame is for god and small children.
I'm half-way through watching (again!) that great 35 hour, 26 episode (plus 8 special discs) 1973 TV series, The World At War.
How Britain came through that lot, after so many initial defeats I'll never know but, as Churchill said to the people of Coventry back then "we can take it" (for which he was lambasted BTW) Likewise, I believe we will come through this period of a nation divided against itself.
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>> How Britain came through that lot, after so many initial defeats I'll never know
The Americans.
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"The Americans."
OK, so who thinks it was a good idea to upset Mr Trump?
Talk about stupid!
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Trump and Brexit - the perfect storm
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Indeed, and the Red Army, but lets not forget they were part of Hitlers pack till he turned and bit them.
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.
Last edited by: Dog on Fri 12 Jan 18 at 16:28
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>> I also don't think that we are a laughing stock, from what I hear there
>> are many people in the EU who are a little envious of the idea of
>> repatriating powers and self determination.
You are wrong. On both counts
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>>
>> >> I also don't think that we are a laughing stock, from what I hear
>> there are many people in the EU who are a little envious of the idea
>> of repatriating powers and self determination.
>>
>> You are wrong. On both counts
>>
Constructive discussion there then - not!
The first point is my opinion and the second is what I have heard, what people have told me, I can't be wrong when I am simply reporting comments from others.
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>> Constructive discussion there then - not!
>>
>> The first point is my opinion
Your opinion and experiences are frequently not the norm
and the second is what I have heard, what
>> people have told me, I can't be wrong when I am simply reporting comments from
>> others.
And I have heard differing comments, from others, those abroad in europe that is, ie europeans. They all think we are stark staring bonkers.
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>>
>> >> Constructive discussion there then - not!
>> >>
>> >> The first point is my opinion
>>
>> Your opinion and experiences are frequently not the norm
>>
From your perspective perhaps Z, though as far as I can see you an I both voted remain and both reckon we should get on with leaving as that is the will of the people.
Where I disagree is that I don't think that we are universally laughed at and that there are many Europeans who are concerned about the impending United States of Europe and reckon that our departure might be good timing - for us.
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Maybe we should have a referendumb on whether we should have another referendumb.
8-)
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Dutch politician Dijsselbloem on BBC 2 Newsnight making comments that the continentals except the decision regarding the U.K leaving the E.U.
I'm no Consevative but Michael Hesseltine opinion is about right.We are leaving but what we are gaining from it is a mystery to me.
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"what we are gaining from it is a mystery to me"
Straight bananas?
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>> I'm no Consevative but Michael Hesseltine opinion is about right.We are leaving but what we
>> are gaining from it is a mystery to me.
>>
Surely he knows about the return of blue passports. If that’s not something that was worth fighting for I don’t know what is. There’s probably something else as well but can’t recall it at the moment. Anyone else know?
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>> Surely he knows about the return of blue passports. If that’s not something that was
>> worth fighting for I don’t know what is. There’s probably something else as well but
>> can’t recall it at the moment. Anyone else know?
Yeah, as Dave said - Straight Bananas, and of course don't forget High Power consumption Dysons,
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Gosh, all that and we've only just started. It's truly an exciting era of unlimited possibilities on which we embark.
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And £350 million a wee.... oh.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42669293
Maybe he's short of a bob or two and wants some income from the media.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42669293
>>
>> Maybe he's short of a bob or two and wants some income from the media.
Don't worry, some of the 40 billion divorce costs are part of his MEP pension package that he has declined to forgo
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Appears that curent leader's girlfriend has been suspended after making racist remarks about Megan Markle www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42679187 She says they were taken out of contest though I can't thin of any context in which they'd be acceptable. Also suspect fact he's old enough to be her Father won't go down to well with the 'traditional' wing of UKIP.
Nigel's referendum comments are him dog whistling his availability to return the party to it's former glory.
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"She says they were taken out of contest though I can't thin of any context in which they'd be acceptable."
She might want to argue it was private, light-hearted banter. If she did so it would make her cringeworthily naive.
Some of what she put is pretty disgusting.
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>> Some of what she put is pretty disgusting.
Absolutely. But I've certainly been out with the odd psycho, you can't pin it all on him straight away.
Depending on his reactions and the changes he makes to his life, of course, then judgement becomes possible.
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>>Some of what she put is pretty disgusting.
Unfortunately there are many people that think like her.
I was rushed to A&E this week. The nurse was a male white ex copper. The radiologist was female Asian. English was not her first language, but totally understandable, through the giggles. The junior doctor was middle eastern and very charming. The consultant was Indian.
All thoroughly charming, polite and professional and with excellent bed manner.
I am happy that they make up the mix that makes our country a great place to be!
BTW, despite all of the news about stretched hospitals. The waiting time in A&E was posted as an hour. Only a kid with lots of blood went in before me.
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I hope whatever you went to A & E about wasn't too serious and you are now recovered, or on the way, Zippy.
I too used the NHS hospital service twice last year. Both times were scheduled surgery and I was operated on by a charming Pakistani consultant the first time and awoke from the anaesthetic in the recovery room to a wonderful West Indian nurse who very sympathetically dealt with my considerable post-operative pain.
The second time it was the same surgeon, this time with a Pakistani anaesthetist who listened to my account of previous problems with nausea and contrived something which meant I was totally free of it when I came round - this time, unfortunately, there was no sign of the nurse I had had previously.
All of these people, together with the many others of various ethnic origins that I came across, were more than excellent in their job. I was happy to have been treated by such professional and caring people.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Mon 15 Jan 18 at 00:47
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Thanks guys.
Asthma attack.
I mentioned shortness of breath somewhere here recently which got worse due to the cold weather, but was never actually diagnosed as asthma.
I went to a meeting at a client in the cold far north (Birmingham :-) ).
I had a bad night in the hotel but persevered to the client and was having a cup of tea with the FD who I get on with but I got really short of breath. Took my inhaler but it didn't have any effect even after multiple uses.
FD said I was turning blue and a member of his team noticed that I was shaking (I didn't even realise) and called an ambulance. By the time it arrived I had passed out but came around with the paramedics and the client's first aider.
Taken to hospital for check ups and nebuliser. All clear save for breath pressure not high enough and a change of meds.
Still having difficulty breathing. Need to now go to the doctors and try and find some medicine that works.
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>>Asthma attack.
Hope you're better now! I know you're never going to be 100% and this is a life condition.
I hope you are not a smoker too - Asthma and a smoker is an obvious bad combination I know.
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>> Asthma attack.
>>but was never actually diagnosed as asthma.
>> Taken to hospital for check ups and nebuliser. All clear save for breath pressure not
>> high enough and a change of meds.
>>
>> Still having difficulty breathing. Need to now go to the doctors and try and find
>> some medicine that works.
I would be going to the doctor and insist on seeing a specialist to get a proper diagnosis!
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One line I commonly trot out to my patients is...
"Asthma still kills people - very often after they or their doctors haven't taken it seriously enough"
No idea what your circumstances are but a diagnosis would be nice.
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My father had asthma and it killed him aged 43.
On that night he had an asthma attack and went up to the local hospital and had an injection or something. Earlier in the night he'd been in the pub and the GP was there too.
Much later that night he had another bad asthma attack. Mum called the GP and he wouldn't come out because my dad had been in the pub earlier. He never did come. Ambulance also called.... but he died. GP did apologise in the end for not coming out.
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I have chronic asthma, diagnosed when I was 4 and a huge problem for years until the ddrug companies caught up.
I'm not sure how people die from it these days, I can only assume its people that are new to asthma. The warning signs are pretty damned obvious and come some time ahead of a crisis.
As that doctor bloke no doubt knows, there have been quite significant changes in asthma medication and so if you have just been stuck in a rut and haven't changed in years (which is where I was) then its worth investigating and going through various assessments.
I doubt your GP will have the time or the wherewithal, but he'll certainly be able to refer to you somewhere that does.
My medication was completely change about a year ago. The preventative treatments in particular seem to have changed beyond all recognition.
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>> I doubt your GP will have the time or the wherewithal, but he'll certainly be able to refer to you somewhere that does.
To be fair the practice nurses are probably better at asthma management than me (its a large part of their day job and a tiny part of mine) and are usually the first port of call for known asthmatics who are not in extremis.
On the other hand I'm much better than them in an asthma (or any other) emergency and for undiagnosed patients (the GP politicos refer to those as "undifferentiated presentations").
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Sad story RTJ, my Mum nearly died from Asthma, one of our sons has had to be nebulised on a couple of occasions and I have an onging condition that gives me asthmatic type symptoms. I'm writing this in bed on my phone as I have a flu type bug that I hope is not going to my chest.
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Hope it's the cold type bug doing the rounds you have and not flu. The cold one is pretty bad at the moment. Get well soon.
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>> are him dog whistling his availability
Sometimes I find the language you choose to insinuate stuff without actually saying it very hard work. Can't you just say what you mean instead of all this clever, clever s***?
In this case, what does "dog whistling" mean? Saying it but nobody can hear him, Some kind of coded message that only some can hear? Or something else?
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I'm not, in the hidden message sense, insinuating anything. The term dog whistle politics has been around long enough to have entered UK media etc and therefore informed debate:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
My point is that Farage is mentioning a second referendum to tell UKIP's membership he's available to be their saviour if the current leader is forced out.
I'm genuinely surprised you don't get it.
FWIW: I hadn't realised when posting that there's already a move to sack Bolton based on his marital infidelity to be debated by UKIP's executive next week.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 14 Jan 18 at 18:38
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>>I'm genuinely surprised you don't get it.
Well I genuinely didn't. Perhaps its because I'm not currently in the UK and thus miss out of the latest trendy terms.
If I'm honest it still doesn't make much sense to me. It seems somehow sly, like wanting to hint at something without actually having the balls to say it.
But that's is quite possibly just me. I don't really do trendy and "right-on" phrases, I prefer just to say it clearly.
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>> If I'm honest it still doesn't make much sense to me. It seems somehow sly,
>> like wanting to hint at something without actually having the balls to say it.
That's actually a pretty good definition of dog whistle politics.
As above, Farage is saying, albeit out of the corner of his mouth, that Bolton is useless but Nige is here to revert to 2010-16 and be UKIP's saviour.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 14 Jan 18 at 19:45
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> As above, Farage is saying, albeit out of the corner of his mouth, that Bolton
>> is useless but Nige is here to revert to 2010-16 and be UKIP's saviour.
>>
How do you know he is saying that?
I would think on a lot of these panel shows the guests are primed to say certain things that the producers would like to say.
What's to say he said just what he said and that's it with no hidden meaning?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 14 Jan 18 at 20:00
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>> How do you know he is saying that?
In response to both you and NoFM; I can't be certain but I think I understand his message however it is delivered.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 14 Jan 18 at 20:34
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>>Farage is saying, albeit out of the corner of his mouth,
I dislike the man on several levels, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't speak out of the corner of his mouth. As far as I can see he pretty much says it out loud.
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"But that's is quite possibly just me."
No, it's certainly not just you. I hear a lot of Eric Cantona-isms that I just can't work out.
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>> No, it's certainly not just you. I hear a lot of Eric Cantona-isms that I just can't work out.
Are you saying Farage is a sardine? Or maybe Bolton? :-)
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Bolton's little head was over-ruling his big head.
OTH - if marital fidelity, or "normal" sexual preferences, are requisites for the leaders (or high officials) of a political party the front benches over the years would have looked very different.
Update: Bolton states he's ditched his inamorata, but I think he is seriously damaged.
As a (still) current member of UKIP, I'm not at all sure that it has a future now.
My membership is renewable in May: I have not yet decided what to do, but every PR and internal disaster since the referendum makes it less likely that I will renew.
A goodly number of our local UKIP branch have joined the Conservative Party, hoping to influence from within, especially if there is a leadership contest.
Our local Tories are strongly Eurosceptic and pro- Brexit, so a move there does have its merits.
Last edited by: Roger. on Mon 15 Jan 18 at 11:23
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Having once in my life voted UKIP, I revised my opinions of what it stood for in its entirety some time ago. When Farage cosied up to the egregious POTUS (and I still don't get what Brexit has to do with Trump's election, except that the results of both votes were a surprise), that finished it for me.
Since then UKIP has become a laughing-stock, in my view.
However, in the larger scheme of things (seen in a historical context) UKIP probably played a part in bringing Brexit about.
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Based on the level of fighting we witnessed in this forum during and after the 1st referendum, I think this forum would succumb to its injury after the 2nd referendum =:p
This is reason why general public don't want another referendum again.
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well they achieved their aim of a divided UK then.
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>>Having once in my life voted UKIP, I revised my opinions of what it stood for in its entirety some time ago.
Genuinely asking; do you think UKIP changed or was it just your opinion of them that changed?
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>>UKIP probably played a part in bringing Brexit about.
Definitely played a major if not total part in my view.
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>>The man has no real influence - just a big mouth.
His influence has brought about a huge EU upheaval.
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To be honest though all our political parties are currenly riven with discord and are led by the mediocre. I despair that we will ever get out of the mess that we have created for ourselves. Some sort of collective insanity seems ot have engulfed the country.
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>> To be honest though all our political parties are currenly riven with discord and are
>> led by the mediocre. I despair that we will ever get out of the mess
>> that we have created for ourselves. Some sort of collective insanity seems ot have engulfed
>> the country.
I agree. I cannot think of a single one of them that I can relate to, quite honestly.
The very real prospect of a 'Jacob versus Jeremy' choice at the next election doesn't bear thinking about. If either wins, it will be damaging for the UK.
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"The very real prospect of a 'Jacob versus Jeremy' choice at the next election doesn't bear thinking about. If either wins, it will be damaging for the UK."
Not sure Jacob will be in that position - I hope not anyway. The man is almost a caricature - truly awful. But Jeremy seems firmly ensconced - for the time being. However, the narrative that young, disgruntled left-leaning voters were responsible for his apparent electoral strength has now been debunked and I wonder whether his chances are in fact a lot slimmer than we might have believed.
If it really does come down to 'Jacob versus Jeremy' I agree that it is a dispiriting prospect.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Fri 16 Feb 18 at 12:27
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>> Not sure Jacob will be in that position - I hope not anyway. The man
>> is almost a caricature - truly awful.
I thought the same about Donald Trump, and look what happened. We are in very strange political times when people are so disillusioned with weak, ineffective mainstream politicians, that they are turning to characters like these, who in any other climate would be dismissed as jokes.
Unfortunately, Rees-Mogg is clear favourite to succeed May, according to the bookies and as you say, Corbyn isn't going anywhere. How depressing can it get?
www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-conservative-leader
Last edited by: DP on Fri 16 Feb 18 at 15:43
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Henning Wehn did a sketch where he said British people shrug off adversity with an "It's OK, it's a laugh" attitude.
I think you are mistaken to assume that people actually think about what they vote, and make a conscious decision that they are disillusioned etc. In my mind people think more along the lines of the Henning attitude.
Or maybe the thought process is more Dad's Army, with respect to "The Establishment". "They don't like it up 'em"
Either way, I really don't think people care that much about the consequences of their vote.
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I think you're entirely wrong and you seriously underestimate the British people.
This has become the common complaint from anyone who doesn't want Brexit....that we didn't realise what we were voting for.
We did, we researched the options, listened to the political broadcasts and statements and showed that we'd listened by turning out in unprecedented numbers to cast our votes.
The more the major political parties govern to feather their own nests and suit their own political agenda, forgetting who voted for them and the mandate they voted for, the more diverse politics will get.....and that's no bad thing.
Pat
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"The more the major political parties govern to feather their own nests and suit their own political agenda, forgetting who voted for them and the mandate they voted for, the more diverse politics will get.....and that's no bad thing."
See? Straight out of the plot line of Dad's Army... :-)
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You can't resist mocking every single time I post, can you Smokie.
Very inviting considering just how quiet this forum has been this week and excellent behaviour from a Mod, yet again.
Can you not have a serious discussion? Do you not think I'm worthy of a sensible answer?
.....see my previous post about Ex posters no longer enjoying posting here.
Not hard to see why, is it?
Still, if it's any consolation it says a lot more about you than it does me, and it's not nice.
Pat
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>> .....see my previous post about Ex posters no longer enjoying posting here
Which one?
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>> This has become the common complaint from anyone who doesn't want Brexit....that we didn't realise
>> what we were voting for.
>>
>> We did, we researched the options, listened to the political broadcasts and statements and showed
>> that we'd listened by turning out in unprecedented numbers to cast our votes.
Ok tell us what the UK will look like in 10 years after Brexit. How much influence will we have in the world, what will the economy be like? what will the UK's growth be compared to the rest of the world, what will the population numbers be?
You know none of that, none of us do.
Dont make me laugh, research my ass. You voted Brexit because you didnt like foreign language notices in the canteen. That was the depth of your research. and dont deny it, its black and white in the history of these pages.
We have this terrible choice of idiots to vote for because the UK population is basically electorally stupid.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 16 Feb 18 at 17:35
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Tell you anything? To be mocked by a mod? I don't think so, it's really not worth my time or trouble!
Pat
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>> Tell you anything? To be mocked by a mod? I don't think so, it's really not worth my time or trouble!
Smokie wasn't mocking you. Though God only knows how he resisted it after that post.
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Ha!! I have a fairly long and detailed response to Pat in draft, but not for the first time I'll let it lie for now.
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>> To be mocked by a mod?
Was he wearing his moderator's hat when he replied to you?
To me, he was posting as per any other individual on this forum does.
Or aren't moderators allowed to have their own views aside from being moderators?
In short, whilst we have a magic wand in our trousers, we don't always get it out and wave it about.
Have you ever stopped to consider the reason this forum is becoming quieter might be due to attitude of some of the other contributors, and them wanting to pick a fight all the time? That and it being half term this past week.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 17 Feb 18 at 21:00
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>> Was he wearing his moderator's hat when he replied to you?
>>
I don't know, I couldn't see him from where I was sitting.
But having made a post in another thread, clearly mocking myself and peppered with enough smilies and explanation marks to make it absolutely clear it was made TIC, and to be asked to stop 'baiting him', then it is no longer enjoyable to post here.
Pat
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I know you didn't start this up again but seeing as I'm the maligned subject I have a right to reply :-)
I would have let this lie except you have said above that I made a post "clearly mocking myself and peppered with enough smilies and explanation marks". You also said in another post that what I'd said "says a lot more about you than it does me, and it's not nice", which I don't find a particularly pleasant (or factual) comment to make but again I'd let it go at the time. And lastly, you imply in the same post that I could be the reason for us losing members, which again I took some exception to but I let it go.
Using the forum search I cannot find a post of mine in recent weeks with multiple exclamation marks or smileys which was directed at you, or in response to you, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
I haven't intentionally mocked you. You could at worst say I've teased you in a response in this thread, but that is not mocking and the single smiley was on the end as I considered your post exactly proved my point, and came in such quick response to it. I regret that this may have felt like mocking and also that you felt like it was directed at you personally, but it could have been anyone. As you said to me on another post a while back, "Well, you walked into that one."
I hope I've not been any more the cause for the loss of any members than yourself, or many other people here. I expect you have in mind the BREXIT discussions again but to be fair that got heated (and still smoulders) for many people, on both sides - and not just on this forum.
Anyway I'll leave it there as it really isn't an appropriate discussion for the forum but I wanted to just clarify the above. If any further discussion is required shall we take it offline?
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 18 Feb 18 at 09:55
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Can I just clarify that you have misunderstood me completely, yet again.
The post I write about was made BY me, about ME and mocking MYSELF.
As I said, it's got to be like too much hard work and no longer a pleasure to post here.
Pat
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Oh ok, my misunderstanding. I thought you'd mentioned being mocked by a moderator somewhere.
I must try harder :-)
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You're not alone smokie, that's how I read it as well. Although I wasn't 100% sure. It was a little confusing.
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Apology accepted but I can't help being confusing.
How about you all try and give me the benefit of the doubt now and again?
Pat
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Try not to take it to heart, Pat.
These days, when the nastiness starts, I just clear off and do something constructive.
It's nearly always impossible to engage in reasonable discussion in those circumstances and trying to do so ends up being a waste of time and energy. It's not as if I haven't better things to do.
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After an extremely bad night with very little sleep, I’ve had time to think this one through.
This forum represents less than 0.5% of my life. In the other 99.5%, I am apparently not confusing and most people say I am possibly too direct and opinionated.
I use quite a few other forums, blogs and real-life groups where opinions and discussions are had on a wide variety of subjects. They are usually lively but never deteriorate to being personal or nasty.
Then I got to wondering why it happens here and realised of all the posters, it’s only less than 0.5% again, who actually find my posts confusing and seem incapable of understanding their meaning.
Always the same 0.5% too, so with sleep still being elusive I started to look at that group and see what they had in common.
Unlike the majority of us, who are still working or have otherwise busy lives and only find time to pop in and post quickly during a coffee or lunch break, they seem to be retired and bored.
Are they missing the mental stimulation from no longer being in a work environment and needing a source of amusement to while away the hours?
It’s so much easier to accept anything once you have identified the source of the problem and realise that it probably isn’t you at fault, after all.
Pat
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>> It’s so much easier to accept anything once you have identified the source of the
>> problem and realise that it probably isn’t you at fault, after all.
Being retired, having had plenty of sleep, and having worked in an analytical industry, I too can safely say you have missed the target and inverted the solution. There is a single source, and its not the rest of us.
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>> There is
>> a single source, and its not the rest of us.
>>
Of course it isn't Z, glad you agree with me.
As I said >>it’s only less than 0.5% again, who actually find my posts confusing and seem incapable of understanding their meaning<<
Pat
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0.5%?
That's one in two hundred. I thought there were only about twenty active posters left. I look on this forum as a sort of tontine. Last poster left wins all outstanding arguments. You are looking to be favourite. :-)
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I now consider myself retired and being more or less grounded at the moment by chronic illness I do have time to look here more frequently.
I'll discuss nearly anything until the cows come home but the last thing I need is a fall out and I have no intention of having one.
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>> We did, we researched the options, listened to the political broadcasts and statements and showed
>> that we'd listened by turning out in unprecedented numbers to cast our votes.
Let's take that as given.
Did you also think through the consequences like how we'd achieve Brexit, the practicality of dismantling 40yrs of integration, how any UK only free trade agreements with US, China or wherever affects trade with EU single market and the opportunity cost in terms of Westminster/Whitehall time consumed in negotiation.
Never mind the obvious issue of UK's actual land border with an EU country.
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>> Never mind the obvious issue of UK's actual land border with an EU country.
It would be interesting what those on here who voted for BREXIT think the solution for the UK/Republic of Ireland border should be.... I don't think anyone will answer though.
The UK government is still avoiding this. It's a border between us and the EU. You can't just rely on honesty or a few cameras. I still think this alone could cause big problems for us, as in:
1. We need a policed border, or
2. We remain in the single market in some way
The solutions are mutually exclusive.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 18 Feb 18 at 22:58
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It would be interesting what those on here who voted for BREXIT think the solution
>> for the UK/Republic of Ireland border should be.... I don't think anyone will answer though.
>>
>> The UK government is still avoiding this. It's a border between us and the EU.
There is a precedent, of sorts, in Cyprus there is a boarder between the UK and a EU country. Since independence there's no border the two at all. Of course it depends on how much can be transferred from that to the UK directly.
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>> There is a precedent, of sorts, in Cyprus there is a boarder between the UK and a EU country
How does the UK have anything to do with Cyprus apart from still having some airbases? And Turkey is not in the EU.... so what are you actually saying?
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> How does the UK have anything to do with Cyprus apart from still having some
>> airbases? And Turkey is not in the EU.... so what are you actually saying?
I'm saying that the UK has a border with a country that is in the EU and that it has had that border for quite a while. It's not really one that is overally similar to the UK ROI border, but one does already exists. Nothing more.
I never mentioned anything to do with Turkey.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 18 Feb 18 at 23:47
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We have some military bases in southern Cyprus.... that's not a border. We have airbases in other countries too.
I still do not get what you're saying or getting at. This is nothing like the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 18 Feb 18 at 23:58
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>> We have some military bases in southern Cyprus.... that's not a border. We have airbases
>> in other countries too.
>>
>> I still do not get what you're saying or getting at. This is nothing like
>> the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
>
I'll repeat what I said earlier, I never said it was exactly the same. But we (the UK) have a border between the UK and the RoC. It is a border, not a large one but it is there. When you cross from the SBA (ie UK territory, not just the airbase) you are crossing into another country. That's all I'm saying. The precedent exists.
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>> There is a precedent, of sorts, in Cyprus there is a boarder between the UK
>> and a EU country.
Hardly, its an airbase, with a secure military demarcation line.
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>> Hardly, its an airbase, with a secure military demarcation line.
And the Turkish half means Turkey has an influence/ownership and are not in the EU. So even if the Greek Cypriot part of Cyprus was part of the UK (which it isn't), it still would have nothing to do with the EU. Eurovision maybe.
Cyprus stopped being under British control a long time ago. Perhaps we should invade again... we already have military on the island.
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>> Hardly, its an airbase, with a secure military demarcation line.
>>
It's not, no. There is a fence line around the airbase, however there's plenty of land owned by the UK (ie the SBA) that has no fence line check point at all. That land is directly adjacent to the RoC.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 18 Feb 18 at 23:52
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>> That land is directly adjacent to the RoC.
And from this someone could move good to/from the UK mainland.... how? Thomas Cook?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 19 Feb 18 at 00:00
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>> >> That land is directly adjacent to the RoC.
>>
>> And from this someone could move good to/from the UK mainland.... how? Thomas Cook?
>>
They couldn't, not really. There's a port (of sorts) but it's not really equivalent to dover or some such. But there is a fair bit of trade across the into.the SBA from Cyprus .
I'm saying that an open border between the UK and a member of the EU exists outside that of NI/Ireland. It's not exactly the same but it's there.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 19 Feb 18 at 00:10
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I think the point Sooty is making is about the Sovereign base areas on Cyprus that remained UK territory on Cypriot independence:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Forces_Cyprus
As sovereign territory their entry/exit gates are an international border. In the years when UK was in EU but Cyprus was not those gates were and an EU/non EU land border with UK on one side. In practical terms though I doubt they were any different from a UK military base. A few entry gateways with armed guards and pass controls. Perhaps there were rules on what those stationed there, military or civvies, could bring onto base from Cyprus but that's all.
There's a bit of Colonial history which may rankle with Cypriot nationalists but nothing like the issues around Ireland and the Six Counties. And certainly no precedent for trying to re-impose controls on a porous border, sometimes going through people's houses, where there was never customs control and where security stops ended after the Good Friday agreement.
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> As sovereign territory their entry/exit gates are an international border. In the years when UK was in EU but Cyprus was not those gates were and an EU/non EU land> border with UK on one side.
Not quite, the point I was making there aren't any and IIRC there weren't any before Cyprus joined the EU. You can cross from the 'border' freely, there's not even a sign. I think checkpoints are prohibited as part of the independence agreement. So there won't be much of a difference after brexit.
In practical terms though I doubt they were any
>> different from a UK military base. A few entry gateways with armed guards and pass
>> controls. Perhaps there were rules on what those stationed there, military or civvies, could bring
>> onto base from Cyprus but that's all.
Yes but for security purposes rather than immigration purposes. No none you can bring on whatever. Thereare rules about the duty/vat free stuff on base though.
>> There's a bit of Colonial history which may rankle with Cypriot nationalists but nothing like
>> the issues around Ireland and the Six Counties.
Yes the odd protest but that's it.
And certainly no precedent for trying to
>> re-impose controls on a porous border, sometimes going through people's houses, where there was never
>> customs control and where security stops ended after the Good Friday agreement.
Yes it will be hard to read this situation straight across although perhaps some lessons could be learnt and used.
>>
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>>Either way, I really don't think people care that much about the consequences of their vote.
I don't know if it's strictly that they don't care or that the subject is complicated and takes time to understand.
Whereas choosing who to vote for is easy and only requires a few headlines and a chat with some mates.
The implications of a vote are important years, where the vote is just a trivial passing thing.
And research? Don't make me laugh.
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Oh FFS, look who is back.... - R.P.
