Living within the boundaries of the YDNP, I am well aware of the impact second homes have on small communities. A good friend of mine, with journalistic connections to the outdoors, has recently moved from a community where the local school closed, and relocated, with his young family, to a larger village outwith the NP. It isn’t a new phenomenon...30+ years ago I had friends living in a caravan who couldn’t afford property in a ‘ deserted’ Dales village.
But it’s a free society right. You earn your brass. Spend it how you like. But I have small villages nearby with second homes where the owners don’t rent them out and maybe visit ten days a year. Or less.
There are moves to increase rates/ council tax within the YDNP for second home owners. I don’t want a big brother state where people cannot spend their money how they wish, and after several hours walking the fells recently discussing this very issue with my journo pal we still hadn’t reached a solution.
It just seems wrong that these properties are literally empty 50/51 weeks of the year. No disrespect to their owners ( the majority of whom live in the SE) but it’s a situation which doesn’t sit happily on my shoulders.
I know a few people locally who own second homes in the area, but they use them as holiday lets for income so at least the occupants use some local services when in residence.
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The solution is something along the lines of what Canada has tried to do: huge taxes on unoccupied properties. See www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/empty-homes-tax-vancouver-november-update-1.4391935
However I understand it isn’t really working as many of the overseas owners are simply paying the fines. I’m ok with that. At least then that’s your money to build social housing (Grenfield etc)
The other thing long overdue is a tax on properties similar to Switzerland where the longer you own it the lower the capital gains tax. That way you reduce the incentive to own properties as simply an investment. Also it’s better than our system inasmuch as you can pass on the family home to your kids without huge inheritance tax etc. I might be wrong on the Swiss thing but something along those lines is still my preference.
If both these things were in place can you imagine how much easier living in London could be?
As an aside apparently there is a Monet exhibition on in London depicting scenes from his short stay there. The fun fact is that more people actually lived in London when that picture was painted than now.
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>>more people actually lived in London when that picture was painted than now.
Pop was c7.3m in 1916. Tis getting on for 9m now: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London
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We've been umming an ahhing about buying a small terraced place as a retreat.
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Plenty of cheap terraced properties in Padiham R.P.
A plumber friend of mine bought a 2 bed doer up for £36k several months ago. He didn’t research the market properly, spent £26k on a total refurb, down to the bare walls, and added a dormer bedroom. He’s been told it’s now worth £50/£52k!
Daren’t rent it out because he’s been told that it could well be stripped out...CH system taken, kitchen etc etc.
He’s now licking his wounds and certainly doesn’t want to live there as most of his business is elsewhere ( and other reasons)
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>>Daren't rent it out because he's been told that it could well be stripped out
Well he's been given crap advice.
References, deposits, precautions etc. etc. All manageable, I do it all the time. Of course he would have been better to consider what value he'd put into it, but that's a passed decision.
How many more month's rent will he lose out on because he's scared of losing money?
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Not to mention renting it out to organisations or via agents all of which offer varying levels of assurance.
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Re. Pop increase now.
For sure you are correct. I just wasn’t accurate because I meant to say it was the part in his painting that had more people living there rather than Greater London if you know what I mean.
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That policy in Canada seems quite sensible in areas of high non occupancy, I wonder if the UK government would be so brave.
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It's a blight.
Friend lives in the South Hams, about a mile from the coast. The village is about 20% holiday homes, many of which are little used. Half a dozen miles away is Salcombe, where the figure is thought to be 70%.
If people want to retire to these places, fair enough, but it is mostly selfish dog-in-the-mangering when young people brought up there can't settle locally even if they wanted to, accelerating the economic decline. Just another facet of increasing inequality.
If there is a workable way of taxing them out of desirability, it should be done.
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I've often thought about owning a second property and even got close to it a few years ago, when I nearly bought a flat in Montreux, very near Lake Geneva in Switzerland. It would have made a nice retreat and had holiday letting potential. It was on the main coastal road and had wonderful lakeside views.
If you're not Swiss, buying property out there is a complex process which I won't attempt to explain here. I got to the point where I was about to put down a deposit. The only reason I didn't go through with it was a result of re-calculating the finances and concluding that it was all a bit of a risk, as the property would have had to be let out immediately during the time-period I needed to qualify for ownership and during which I would not technically own the flat.
I'm now glad I didn't do it. Aside from the cost of setting up a home and maintaining the property, and of organising lettings (even if in the hands of an agent), there is the feeling that you have to go there at least once a year to make it worthwhile. It would have become a burden, I feel.
The money I've saved has been useful for travel, both in the UK and abroad - my three kids are scattered over the UK and Europe. On the other hand, I might have made a decent profit when I offloaded it, even if I'd done so after a relatively short period of time.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Sat 30 Dec 17 at 15:24
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I think owning a second home is great. However, I think you need to set your sights at a level where you do not *need* to rent it out.
Of course you may do so, but if you *need* to you're horribly exposed.
Also, the point of a second home to me is just that -> *home*. I don't want other people in my home.
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Lots of 2nd homes in nice areas & the locals complain - often there is little employment in the area apart from tourism - without tourism & 2nd homes there would be little employment - coffee shops, gift shops, maintenance squads living locally upgrading the 2nd homes.
Banning 2nd homes would result in lower house prices BUT also lower employment & less money being spent in the area.
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>> Banning 2nd homes would result in lower house prices BUT also lower employment & less
>> money being spent in the area.
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People living in these properties would put more money into the local economy, not less. They need to eat 53 weeks of the year and will buy day to day essentials locally. The three weeks a year brigade stock up on food at their local Tescos, and apart from a meal or two out they will contribute next to nothing to the local economy. We have a few coastal villages here that are 70% holiday homes, they are dying on their backsides with no shop, post office or pub and maybe a cafe that only opens during summer months. I rely on household sales for a living and those places are off limits as they are not worth the petrol to visit.
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>>People living in these properties would put more money into the local economy, not less.
Only if they can find jobs - but rural/coastal resorts have NO JOBS opportunities often - no jobs = no money in the local economy. You need jobs, paying good wages to fire up the economy.
A local fish & chip shop has won awards BUT makes no money in reality - the village is dying as many do not work or on basic earnings.
Another award F&C shop near a son's home is booming - queues outside the door 5pm till 8pm.....the difference - the local economy has high employment in high skilled jobs, high salaries & people have money to spare on everything from great fish & chips to flash houses, flash cars & John Lewis!
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>> >>People living in these properties would put more money into the local economy, not less.
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>> Only if they can find jobs - but rural/coastal resorts have NO JOBS opportunities often
>> - no jobs = no money in the local economy. You need jobs, paying good
>> wages to fire up the economy.
I guess it's complicated, but I don't think a good place to start for a local economy is to have lots of properties with no one in them for 90+% of the time.
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Second homes in my part of the world bring in zero employment. If it was a rental property then a cleaner would be employed, but for the folks who don’t rent their property and use it 7/10 days a year, they contribute sweet FA to the local economy.
A good pal of mine lives half a mile up the road from me. The neighbours in his semi visited literally two weekends a year. It’s out in the sticks and whenever there was any structural damage he would generously ring them up, and unpaid, organise repairs.
They never went to the local pub, arriving with cool bags full of produce from their own local supermarket. He stopped being a friendly occupier neighbour when they took his help for granted.
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A good pal of mine lives half a mile up the road from me. The
>> neighbours in his semi visited literally two weekends a year.
Not quite sure if that's the norm why anyone would bother with buying another home? Maybe a change in circumstances, I suppose.
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One of the problems for a second homeowner - if it’s a holiday home - is that you feel compelled to spend each and every of your holidays visiting and using it! It ultimately limits your holiday options. Even if you fancy a holiday somewhere different you feel obliged to a) get your money’s worth, and b) check up on the state of the place if it’s been lying empty.
All in all very limiting!
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Yep. Same as caravans and boats. They seem a good idea at the time but soon become a liability. For most people renting a cottage for a few weeks a year is probably a better option
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>> Yep. Same as caravans and boats. They seem a good idea at the time but
>> soon become a liability. For most people renting a cottage for a few weeks a
>> year is probably a better option
>>
I guess at least with a caravan or boat you can move it around and see different places.
My brother's friend has a static caravan in North Wales they use it every weekend and holiday. I always assumed that they were cheap as well, not at all no end of costs and charges, rules on how old it can be etc. Thing seems to cost a fortune, not sure if they love north wales or just feel they have to use it alot for vfm. Not something I'd want to be tied to.
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Friends of mine have had a place in Majorca for 20+ years. They used to visit every school holiday with their children, then again with grandchildren. A few years ago she stopped going...sick of the same ( v nice) old place and wanted to see other places. It created quite a rift.
At the moment I like the Costa Blanca, visiting in February 2016 for the first time in 35 years. Some lovely mountain and coastal walks, pretty villages, decent climate. This year I’ve stayed in Moraira three times...a cheap bungalow, nice rented villa with private pool, and another villa belonging to friends of friends. Staying in the same accommodation every time simply does not appeal, even though all 3 are within four miles of one another.
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Yes, always like to stay in a different place whenever possible. It’s really miserable weather here so looking to book a few breaks for the winter. Nothing grand, I tend to prefer apartments to hotels. Have got a fortnight in Lanzarote booked. Decided will go to Malta and very tempted by my favourite island La Parma for a week or two.
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I'm not sure levying extra council tax on them is a good way of helping the local economy either. The council isn't going to start buying food from the local shop or going to the pub - they'll be wasting the money on some historic theme park, giving a pay rise to the CEO to support his own holidays abroad, or paying the interest on the council debt when interest rates rise again.
The problem, if that's what it is, is part of the universal and seemingly inevitable consequence of a national economic entity that spans regions of different prosperity. Money earned in one area is inevitably going to buy up resources in a poorer one.
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I think the policy is to discourage ownership of second homes in certain areas rather than increase council coffers so they can attempt to do something about it. Council tax is just the easiest mechanism to do it.
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The problem with that is that you are making it difficult for a local person to sell their house or at least get a decent price for it so condemning them to stay where they rather
moving elsewhere to look for work.
The real problems with our rural,towns and villages is that there is little or no high wage work available and that there is little social life or entertainment either. It’s great to grow up in a village but when you get into your teens it can seem very dull.
Once youngsters go to university and sample city life they seldom want to return to the countryside and get a poorly paid job in the local Tesco or wait in a local hotel. The phenomenon is world wide. City life with its choice of work and entertainment excerts an irresistible pull.
People are sentimental about the countryside and love to take their holidays or possibly retire there although that has its problems. By and large young people do not want to live there.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 31 Dec 17 at 14:05
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>> The problem with that is that you are making it difficult for a local person
>> to sell their house or at least get a decent price for it so condemning
>> them to stay where they rather
>> moving elsewhere to look for work.
It's difficult to surmise what might happen in all situations, but for every person taking a lower offer then someone might be able to stay in the area.
>> The real problems with our rural,towns and villages is that there is little or no
>> high wage work available and that there is little social life or entertainment either. It’s
>> great to grow up in a village but when you get into your teens it
>> can seem very dull.
Indeed, I live in a village in a very rural county, I'm not sure if urbanisation is still reducing the country population?
Very rare to see a big employer around here, awful transport links don't really help. Wages and prices tend to balance each other out, what keeps that balanced is the lack of tourists, there are of course some but no where near the levels of many other parts of the country. Second houses aren't really an issue in this part of the world.
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> By and large young people do not want to
>> live there.
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That is undoubtedly true to a large extent as you say, but there are in my direct knowledge lots of young people who would if possible. It's not just only low-paid jobs, but also the planning block on new affordable houses, and poor internet connection. I've come across lots of people who start up businesses in the countryside, not all agricultural-based, but are thwarted by the abysmal internet or local authorities that refuse permission for cheaper or self-build homes.
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Ignoring: (1) we've not found or ideal place and (2) Brexit...
We have plans to move somewhere permanently so a second home is a stepping stone. We'd then rent out the UK home as part of this plan to form part of an income and also retain a UK property you could return to or just use to invest in.
We don't plan on a second home in the UK.
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OUR ideal place before the pedants arrive ;-)
Happy new year all.
Now should I take the transfer amount out of my final salary pension they took away from me, as in I now have a different one... Financial advice needed in the new year I think!
P.S. Yes I know I am one of the pedants.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 31 Dec 17 at 21:34
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The bigger problem in these parts is the boom in the AirBnb short-term lettings market. People with under utilised second homes are piling in to the short-term holiday rental market and are totally destroying the long-term rental market. There simply are no longer any houses to rent for people looking for a long-term, i.e when relocating. People can find jobs in provincial New Zealand but then have to turn the job down because there is nowhere to rent to live in..!
The mayor of one very touristy NZ town is trying to pass a local law to forbid houses being let as short term holiday homes for more than 30 nights a year; he wants to restimulate long-term rentals for the influx of workers in the booming town. Good luck with trying to pull that off...
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Second home musings - sherlock47
