Anyone remember the Fiat advert.
Built by robots, not Robbos.
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Its a pity he didn't die at birth.
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"Unite general secretary Len McCluskey said: "History will show that Derek was unfairly maligned by the media as he aimed to find solutions to British Leyland's industrial disputes and turn around the car company."
So Derek was just trying to fix things? Ohhhh...
"[Len McCluskey] is quoted as saying: 'If we make Leyland successful, it will be a political victory. It will prove that ordinary working people have got the intelligence and determination to run industry'.
But you didn't make Leyland successful, not even a little bit. Quite the opposite in fact.
So that means......?
"These words are a suitable epithet for a stalwart of the trade union movement, whose passing we mourn."
Couldn't put it any better myself.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 4 Nov 17 at 10:10
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Robinson was doing his job as he saw it.
If the Leland management and the Governmnet of the time had been at all capable of doing their's the outcome would have been totally different.
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>> Robinson was doing his job as he saw it.
>>
No he wasn't, everything he did was politically motivated. Others people's jobs were collateral damage. His legacy is a trail of destruction to the country, his workers and the trade union movement
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An ignorant old dinosaur who never learnt and never forgot. Even his own members became sick of him, when he was sacked a ballot calling for a strike in support of him was lost by 14000 votes to 600.
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>> >> Robinson was doing his job as he saw it.
>> >>
>> No he wasn't, everything he did was politically motivated. Others people's jobs were collateral
And that is how he saw his job. I hold no brief for him and his methods. He was succesful, if that is the right word, because of the failure of the government and the management to effectively control and neutralise his activities by providing an industrial environment other than the "them and us" relationship that prevailed at the time.
The are always two side and in the case of British Leyland neither emerged with much credit.
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>> Its a pity he didn't die at birth.
>>
That's offensive IMHO.
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>> >> Its a pity he didn't die at birth.
>> >>
>>
>> That's offensive IMHO.
I bet you are not offended as the tens of thousands of lives he ruined
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>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's offensive IMHO.
>>
>> I bet you are not offended as the tens of thousands of lives he ruined
>>
The bloke was a total a***, and those that followed / voted for him deserve no sympathy, but to wish someone dead at birth has something of Herod about it, its just unpleasant.
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My dad worked at Cowley in the 70s and left because he couldn't earn any money due to the endless strikes. As he said, try feeding a family on 40-50% of your expected weekly wage, with no end in sight. Endless strikes for the pettiest, silliest of reasons, and when the place did run, it was chaotic and dysfunctional.
The sad part is, I bet Red Robbo still didn't associate himself with the complete collapse of British owned mass car production, even at the end.
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>> >> Its a pity he didn't die at birth.
>> >>
>>
>> That's offensive IMHO.
And in mine.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself Zero, if you ever get around to looking at yourself that is.
Don't bother with a snide reply. I won't be looking.
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>> You ought to be ashamed of yourself Zero, if you ever get around to looking
>> at yourself that is.
>> Don't bother with a snide reply. I won't be looking.
When I look at what he achieved, the worth and value he gave to people's lives, hopes, well being, the legacy he left to those that followed on, the contribution to the social and economic fabric of this country, then yes his birth was a waste of good air.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 4 Nov 17 at 17:29
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He achieved the death of what was left of the UK car industry.. He was blinkered and fixed in his ways..The management at least tried to succeed... he tried to fail..
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He believed what he believed, and was true to those beliefs.
If nothing else, he was an honest man and true to his beliefs. It didn't seem like he was a particularly nice man, but he wasn't evil.
I think he was a disaster for the company, industry and country, but he was not alone. Many thousands of people voted for him and supported him. Its difficult to see him as any more or less responsible than those around him.
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Having just visited Nuremberg and done the rally grounds, Dachau etc I did wonder how one man could recruit so many followers many of whom could commit such atrocities.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 5 Nov 17 at 13:59
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Mainly down to losing WW1 and the failings of Communism and the effects of the Allies blood letting at Versailles, outrageous demands from France and the USA and to a lesser sense the UK. Magnanimous terms would have seen a prouder Germany and would have probably secured democracy and consequently the need/excuse for militarism from 1936 onwards.
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We have recently visited Berlin. Recommend a visit to the Topography of Terror museum/exhibition. Starts in 1933 with the formation of the Volks Party which was like a breath of fresh air after communism. Everyone is happy, everyone is valued. Next those who work are slightly more valued than those who don't. From then in small steps to eliminating those who don't fit the approved mould. Fascinating stuff and quite worrying when you look at some of Corbyn's supporters and think where all this populism could lead.
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" Fascinating stuff and quite worrying when you look at some of Corbyn's supporters "
And they are the ones who consider the Tories as the 'nasty party'.
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>> When I look at what he achieved, the worth and value he gave to people's
>> lives, hopes, well being, the legacy he left to those that followed on, the contribution
>> to the social and economic fabric of this country, then yes his birth was a waste of air.
By those criteria most people are failures.
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I've composed a death requiem for his funeral.
Wirrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr thunk
Wirrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr thunk
Wirrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr wirrrrrrrrrr thunk
(Repeat 'til battery is flat)
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>> By those criteria most people are failures.
Most people were not in the same position as he was, with the same resources and backing.
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Perhaps then don't you think those around him, the trade leaders, the management, the employees who followed him him the government of the day are equally culpable. To make Robinson some sort of ogre who single handedly destroyed the British car industry rather exaggerates his position and influence.
He was a symptom of the attitudes of the times, not the cause. If he had never lived as you so fervently wish, I rather suspect the history of the car industry would have been much the same.
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>> He was a symptom of the attitudes of the times, not the cause. If he
>> had never lived as you so fervently wish, I rather suspect the history of the
>> car industry would have been much the same.
We don't know that, we don't know what trade union history would have been like after he helped its demise. I don't fervently wish he had never lived, just surmised that on balance his birth would have been better prevented.
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I recall an anecdote about the efficiency of shifts at Longbridge.
The management were flummoxed as to why the night shift produced more cars than the day shift.
They spent some time and money looking in to the reasons but couldn't find it, then one of the workers piped up, "it's because we don't get pestered by management all day like the day shift does!".
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Hope he spoke to his tailor..
Through an accident of career changes I became (and remain) a member of Unite. I keep meaning to admit to not being their ideal member profile. I even had a vote in the Leadership Election.
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>> Through an accident of career changes I became (and remain) a member of Unite.
Is Unite the union for CA? I've tried intermittently and without any real commitment to find whether it's Unite or Unison but nobody at work seems to know!!
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Our boss was a keen Labour supporter and promoted Union membership. The elected rep was a friend as well and he was begging us to join in order to get recognition. When I moved to my new work, there were issues there that kept me in the Union. None of the others (mainly young) are not. Not my favourite Union by a mile but needs must now and again.
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>> >> Through an accident of career changes I became (and remain) a member of Unite.
>>
>>
>> Is Unite the union for CA? I've tried intermittently and without any real commitment to
>> find whether it's Unite or Unison but nobody at work seems to know!!
>>
I remember when Unison was NALGO. What a waste of Oxygen they were.
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>> Hope he spoke to his tailor..
>>
>> Through an accident of career changes I became (and remain) a member of Unite. I
>> keep meaning to admit to not being their ideal member profile. I even had a
>> vote in the Leadership Election.
>>
Ditto with GMB. Been a paid up member for a few years ever since I ended up on a disciplinary engineered by a horrible little so-and-so of a warehouse team leader; shop steward took up my case even though I wasn't a paid-up member, I considered it a matter of principle to join to repay the debt.
I view union membership as job insurance.
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>> I view union membership as job insurance.
If only more people did.
Obviously, employment issues are a big part of CA work. Standard question; are you in a Union?. Some don't even understand what a Union is!!!
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>>Some don't even understand what a Union is!!!
These days you could put me in that group.
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>>Standard question; are you in a Union?.
Many years ago the latest pay rises were announced in the company i worked for.
Some of our small group did not get a comparable pay rise to other similar roles.
The reply to their complaints was " How many of you all are in the union ? "
The result soon after was 100% membership which forced a closed shop on management.
Another pay rise promptly arrived.
That was how I belonged to a union for a couple of years. IIRC it was called ASSET.
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That in a nutshell is why I have no time for unions.
In my book so many are able to do the job
Some do it well some are conscientious and care about the company they work for.
Some do it badly and do as little as possible to get by.
Some seem to have no comprehension that the way they do their job has anything to do with the company's success and their job security.
I used to get paid accordingly but when the Union started ensuring those who didn't give a damn still kept their jobs and got paid the same as I did, was when I vowed never to belong to another one....and I never have.
Pat
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We were a very small hard working group isolated from the majority of the company activities.
It was less then 10 guys out of all of us who were in all our opinions being badly treated pay wise.
Management in addition took the attitude " What are you going to do about it ?" ( as there were so few in the union.)
ALL the remainder of the department resented that response and chose to join the union.
The stupid management did not have the nous to reconsider things before it hit the fan.
I have never since been in a union but have of course at times had poor or bad management,
mostly over promoted types. Some managers have been excellent and have given me the OK to do my job " outside the envelope"
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>> I used to get paid accordingly but when the Union started ensuring those who didn't
>> give a damn still kept their jobs and got paid the same as I did,
>> was when I vowed never to belong to another one....and I never have.
Another perspective:
Lorry driver makes vocal protest to his line manager that they're playing fast/loose with driving time regs. One one occasion he refuses to be complicit and stops short of his depot requiring a relief to take his truck back. Shortly after he's involved in a minor accident and immediately dismissed for gross misconduct.
It may be that there was CCTV or dashcam footage that would justify employers decision. OTOH was he dismissed unfairly and might he have protection as a whistleblower?
Not well enough informed or sufficiently articulate to defend himself. Not in union so nobody to defend him.
From good company/good conditions to agency work. Massive drop in income and has to claim Working Tax Credit. Family suffers.
Maybe a decent union rep would have saved him?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 6 Nov 17 at 18:14
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So wrong on so many levels Bromp
>>Lorry driver makes vocal protest to his line manager that they're playing fast/loose with driving time regs.<<
That's where it would end because that simply doesn't happen anymore. The risks to any lorry driver are too great and he would either walk away or phone DVSA anonymous line and report the firm.
>> One one occasion he refuses to be complicit and stops short of his depot requiring a relief to take his truck back. Shortly after he's involved in a minor accident and immediately dismissed for gross misconduct.<<
They would not dare to dismiss him after a verbal complaint had been made because of the above scenario.
>> It may be that there was CCTV or dashcam footage that would justify employers decision. OTOH was he dismissed unfairly and might he have protection as a whistleblower?<<
He already has protection from fear he has already become an anonymous whistleblower. Not well enough informed or sufficiently articulate to defend himself. Not in union so nobody to defend him.
From good company/good conditions to agency work. Massive drop in income and has to claim Working Tax Credit. Family suffers.
No way was it a good company or paid well if that was their working practices! Agency work pays better too but doesn't have the security for 'dodgy' drivers.
Maybe a decent union rep would have saved him?
A truly professional lorry driver doesn't need a decent rep, he is well aware of the consequences of not doing the right thing and simply cannot afford the risk of doing otherwise these days.
Unions for lorry drivers have become simply an insurance company to pay (and encourage) speeding fines.
Ask them to represent you in a dispute and they run a mile.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Mon 6 Nov 17 at 18:39
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A good union is as welcome to a good management as it is to the workforce. Moral on the shop floor is higher when the workers know they have strong backing if they feel they are being treated unfairly and the management know that any agreements reached re wage rates and working practices will be adhered to.
It is when one or both of the parties are poor that problems arise, and in the case of BL and a chunk of other firms both parties were useless. In my pre self employed I belonged to two unions and both had good working relationships with the employer, there were disputes but these were sorted to mutual satisfaction after the usual tooing and froing. The only day I ever spent on strike was in support of the nurses when I worked on a local council, back in 1980 something.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Mon 6 Nov 17 at 19:32
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That was the reasoning behind bringing Union recognition in the CA where I work. Moral was on the floor, re-structuring due to funding problems. That bit actually worked.
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Might I respectfully suggest, Pat, that you have a slight conflict of interest here?
Do please correct me if I'm mistaken, but are you not somewhat involved in the Professional Drivers Foundation which, whilst it may not be in itself a trade union, effectively offers similar services to one? It would not therefore be in your organisation's interests to endorse union membership for lorry drivers, regardless of whether they're doing any good or not.
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May I respectfully suggest HM, you visit the Professional Drivers Foundation page and update yourself?
We are, and have been for the last 9 years, a Charity for lorry drivers and as such, do not offer ANY such services.
We refuse many offers of funding from bodies who want us to promote their beliefs in an effort to remain strictly neutral.
I think you are mixing us up with the 'other' Facebook group with a very similar name, run by one Barry Tozer.
We did object about the similarity in the names when he started it a few years ago, but all to no avail.
I hope I've made that absolutely clear.
Pat
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www.pdu-uk.co.uk/
There we are, this is the one I mean which has absolutely nothing to do with our charity.
Pat
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>> May I respectfully suggest HM, you visit the Professional Drivers Foundation page and update yourself?
>>
>> We are, and have been for the last 9 years, a Charity for lorry drivers
>> and as such, do not offer ANY such services.
>>
Without (again) wishing to be disrespectful Pat; it's not particulalarly clear from your charity's website what you actually do apart from "support drivers in need". Whilst that's a worthy cause, that lack of clarity may also explain why the likes of me could wrongly assume that you offer other services. I did look before my original post which is what prompted my question.
Please stay well off your high horse when answering.... ;-)
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>>that lack of clarity may also explain why <<
Not by the amount of requests for grants we get!
I've never been on a horse , they don't like me and always bite me...and I don't like heights:-)
Pat
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Pat,
The basic scenario, albeit simplified, is one I met as a CA Gateway Assessor. He did complain and he was then dismissed. They did dare sack him and the protection from fear as a 'whistleblower' was utterly ineffective.
He was truly professional and aware of consequences of not doing right thing. That's why he stopped short and and sent for a relief. He was a driver not a lawyer or writer; he simply hadn't the research skills or the level of articulacy needed to sort out his own defence.
A union could have done that for him.
His company is smaller than Stobart/Dentresangle or whatever but big enough for you to see their trucks frequently on the M/wway. Don't have details of conditions but his view was he was MUCH worse off on agency or with other firms.
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>> Pat,
>> He was truly professional and aware of consequences of not doing right thing. That's why
>> he stopped short and and sent for a relief. He was a driver not a
>> lawyer or writer; he simply hadn't the research skills or the level of articulacy needed
>> to sort out his own defence.
>>
In my experience as a driver, and working with drivers this usually happens when the driver in question has been happy to do this in the past when it suited him to get home or earn more money, but not when it suited his TM to get the vehicle back.
It may well not be the case in this scenario but the reluctance to report the firm anonymously to DVSA would indicate he didn't want to be investigated himself either, which of course would happen and is only fair.
. Don't have details of conditions but his view was
>> he was MUCH worse off on agency or with other firms.
>>
Of course it would be! He was looking for compensation and fast track and financial support to a tribunal.
Call me cynical if you like but I've been, and worked with, drivers for many years and there was more to that than you were being told.
Pat
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Missed the edit but.....
>>Lorry driver makes vocal protest to his line manager that they're playing fast/loose with driving time regs. One one occasion he refuses to be complicit and stops short of his depot requiring a relief to take his truck back. Shortly after he's involved in a minor accident and immediately dismissed for gross misconduct.<<
As it is illegal to recover a driver who has run out of duty time (and he would/should know this) he refused to be complicit in one respect, but was happy to comply with another illegal activity?
Pat
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>> As it is illegal to recover a driver who has run out of duty time
>> (and he would/should know this) he refused to be complicit in one respect, but was
>> happy to comply with another illegal activity?
How is it illegal to recover him? IIRC they sent a car out with relief as a passenger and same car took out of hours driver back to his depot. Any reluctance to report to DVSA is entirely in your head. He didn't need me to explain the option to him!!
You don't make union any less useful by trying, as you're doing here, trying to undermine the credibility of a complainant and/or my account of his history.
Contrary to popular belief Tribunals are no pushover and particularly while fees were in force a union wouldn't pursue that option unless they had a good prospect of success. However, if he'd had union representation at the initial disciplinary and/or the employer's appeal process it might never have got to a Tribunal. Representation might also have helped nip the hours issue in the bud via internal grievance procedures.
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>>
>> How is it illegal to recover him? IIRC they sent a car out with relief
>> as a passenger and same car took out of hours driver back to his depot.<<
The law states:
Travelling time
Drivers of passenger-carrying vehicles are often required to be relocated to a vehicle they are required to drive or from a vehicle they have driven.
Where a vehicle coming within the scope of the EU rules is neither at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, but is at a separate location, time spent travelling to or from that location to take charge of the vehicle may not be counted as a rest or break, unless the driver is in a ferry or train and has access to a bunk or couchette.
21
SECTION 1: EU & AETR rules on drivers’ hours''
>> Any reluctance to report to DVSA is entirely in your head. He didn't need me
>> to explain the option to him!!
Not in my head, but in my experience which in this respect, is greater than yours.
>> You don't make union any less useful by trying, as you're doing here, trying to
>> undermine the credibility of a complainant and/or my account of his history.
>>
You really think that's what I'm trying to do?
I'm trying to give you the benefit of my knowledge and experience on this one, however if it upsets you're dignity I apologise for trying to be helpful.
>> Contrary to popular belief Tribunals are no pushover and particularly while fees were in force<<
I have attended one of two!
>> nip the hours issue in the bud via internal grievance procedures.
>>
Drivers Hours law is extremely complex and always open to interpretation.
Typically to favour the management by the TM, and to favour the driver when interpreted by the driver.
To get clarification it is usually necessary to have a court ruling which is what happened some years ago on the above.
It was quite a shock as the practice you describe when a driver was out of hours was commonplace, and simply because of this both the firm and the driver, would have been aware it was illegal.
Pat
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>> Where a vehicle coming within the scope of the EU rules is neither at the
>> driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, but
>> is at a separate location, time spent travelling to or from that location to take
>> charge of the vehicle may not be counted as a rest or break, unless the
>> driver is in a ferry or train and has access to a bunk or couchette.
Let's supposse guy had in fact done 15hours and was aware that recovery to base as passenger in company car was in itself illegal. The fast/looseness mentioned was slap bang in Drivers Hours law is extremely complex and always open to interpretation. Typically to favour the management by the TM, and to favour the driver when interpreted by the driver territory.
Whether 'going along' is being reluctantly helpful or doing hours for the money while it suited is a matter of opinion.
None of which affects my point that, whatever true circs, he'd be better off with a decent union rep.
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>>Whether 'going along' is being reluctantly helpful or doing hours for the money while it suited is a matter of opinion<<
It is, but both are very illegal for the driver and his employer, whichever opinion you choose.
>>reluctantly helpful<<
That old excuse! DVSA love it:)
Pat
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>>You don't make union any less useful by trying, as you're doing here, trying to undermine the credibility of a complainant and/or my account of his history.
However, Bromp, you do justify what many of us to be the very worst side of unions, where they simply take the word of the poor, abused and clearly downtrodden worker in front of them without troubling to find out what really happened.
Your problem is, Bromp, you *want* your driver to be right. And that's not a good starting point in any situation.
Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, though Pat's perception seemed much more likely to me, but surely you should be approaching it a bit more objectively.
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To be fair Bromp said above "It may be that there was CCTV or dashcam footage that would justify employers decision."
Though I'm not defending unions, they add massive costs and the only beneficiaries generally are the union leaders.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Tue 7 Nov 17 at 10:38
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>> However, Bromp, you do justify what many of us to be the very worst side
>> of unions, where they simply take the word of the poor, abused and clearly downtrodden
>> worker in front of them without troubling to find out what really happened.
My purpose in mentioning this scenario was simply to point out that without union membership workers who are, or perceive themselves to be, unfairly treated have an uphill or impossible battle defending themselves. As HM reminds I made specific point that CCTV or dashcam footage, and latter will almost certainly have been available, may have damned him completely. On the other hand employers case may have had more holes than a Swiss cheese.
If later posts give appearance I've simply taken his word that's because I'm responding to Pat's line that the situation described was 'impossible'.
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>>If later posts give appearance I've simply taken his word that's because I'm responding to Pat's line that the situation described was 'impossible'. <<
Err no, I hadn't said it was impossible.
I tried to show you what was far more likely to be the full facts.
If the driver in question stood before either a court of law, a Tribunal, the DVSA, the traffic commissioner or even a decent transport manager, he would be questioned at length on all of the points I mentioned previously.
Pat
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>> Lorry driver makes vocal protest to his line manager that they're playing fast/loose with driving time regs. One one occasion he refuses to be complicit and stops short of his depot requiring a relief to take his truck back. >>
Strangely I have had a call from a mate this morning from behind the wheel of his Scania (hands free of course) who said that his hours were just about to run out and he was looking for somewhere to stop. He says if it happens within an hour or so of the depot they send out another driver in a car who drives the truck back and my mate drives the car back.
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Let's just clarify this.
I'll try and simplify it as much as possible.
A driver can do a maximum of 10 driving a day twice a week and nine hours on other days.
The same driver can do a maximum of 15 hours driving plus other work three times a week and 13 hours a day driving plus other work on other days.
Driving any other non tacho vehicle is classed as travelling and therefore courts and DVSA have ruled it is to be classed as other work.
So, if the driver has run out of driving time (10 or 9 hrs) but has other work time available then he can do this.
However, if he has used his full 15 hours spread over time then he cannot travel in any other vehicle anywhere unless it meets the bunk or couchette requirements, because it is classed as other work.
Pat
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>> So, if the driver has run out of driving time (10 or 9 hrs) but
>> has other work time available then he can do this.
So lets say driver in my example had run out of his 9 (or 10) hours but had not done any non-driving work. He could then legitimately be ferried back to his depot as a passenger in the car which took relief driver to M/way services where he had stopped?
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>> had run out of his 9 (or 10) hours but had not done any non-driving work<<
That's impossible to achieve.
His mandatory walk round checks at the start of the day, his unloading and loading are all other work. In fact anytime that he isn't actually driving is classed as other work.
It is far more common to run out of spread over time than it is to run out of driving time.
The tacho defaults to other work when the wheels are not turning on most vehicles you can see that any time in a queue of traffic, waiting at lengthy lights etc, means that is far more common.
10 hours driving means that he must have been doing very long distance work with few tips.
The most mileage I've managed in 10 hours driving is 802Km's, not sure what that is in miles but I'm sure someone will tell me!
Pat
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Thanks!....it's not easy to average 50mph in a fully loaded artic, which is limited to 56mph,so it means it would have been almost all motorway work.
Pat
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Not a pleasant day, though I guess at least there were few traffic jams.
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Early AM Sunday running to Scotland to start a multidrop around Dundee and Aberdeen on Monday...in the summer too!
Pat
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I guess multi drop is a lot easier these days with Sat Nav. Used to be a challenge.
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Even if the company you work for provides you with a gizmo to tell you where to go and the order of your drops, 130 drops a day is still a challenge.
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It is a challenge but with satnav it's a lot easier than it used to be driving with an A to Z in one hand.
The secret is knowing your drops, who will tip you on the road across the gate, and which side of the trailer the odd pallet is on and never falling out with a Forkie!
Pat
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If you mean 130 drops at different delivery addresses, I'd go as far as to say b***** impossible. Someone added an extra '0'.
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My local DPD driver does it, I have been drop 105 of 130
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Better than me, that's not many minutes per drop, assuming that's all one route and one driver rather than just a daily quota from that depot.
It was before I could drive big lorries and so was playing with small and medium lorries and used to deliver furniture for Debenhams. 12 drops was a big day. Its a long time ago so I'm not absolutely sure, but I would doubt we ever did as many as 20, unless one house was taking several deliveries which had got itemized separately.
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AFAIK, all the major parcel carriers are using route optimisation software to drive efficiency.
It can be very, very effective, but it only needs one tweak of the parameters too far to switch from driving staff hard to driving them too hard.
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The DPD type guys can often spend a couple of hours on a housing estate doing maybe 30 deliveries an hour.
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, just surmised
>> that on balance his birth would have been better prevented.
>>
You actually said
"Its a pity he didn't die at birth"
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Same outcome, of course it also depends on your definition of when life starts
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 4 Nov 17 at 18:41
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Once upon a time I was employed both as an office manager and later as a representative for Forward Trust - the HP/Leasing arm of the then Midland Bank.
This was a contradiction in many ways, as it was in the heyday of Finance Companies, before credit scoring, for underwriting new business and actions in collecting arrears were somewhat seat-of-the-pant and experience driven activities.
On takeover by the bank, FT became a rare beast for its time, being RIGIDLY controlled by the bank generated Branch Procedures manuals, running to many, many pages. Credit scoring was mandatory for all retail business and at branch level, it was not possible to decline a credit applicant who scored "accept", even if local knowledge indicated that the risk was unacceptable.
Similarly, if one followed the Branch Procedure manual to the letter (even if the result was deleterious) one was blameless.
In this tightly controlled environment, it made sense to have staff firepower, and virtually all of us signed up with ASTMS, then led by Clive Jenkins).
The only positive I personally noticed was the changing of rep's company cars, by upping one grade, as the basic Ford Pop had drum brakes at the front, which the union claimed was a safety issue!
Last edited by: Roger. on Tue 7 Nov 17 at 11:05
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There is a lot of bashing of Derek Robinson here and probably rightfully so, but I wonder how much aggravation at BL was due to management intransigence as well - the class system - good old grammar school management vs. comprehensive school workers etc.
From experience, I visit a lot of private and public companies, all with different management styles and spend time with both management and workers.
It is surprising that some firms still have nice management only facilities (washrooms, restaurants etc.) whilst workers get much more basic and sometimes unpleasant facilities. That can't be good for morale.
Then you get the struggling businesses where management never visit the factory floor and the successful ones were everyone knows and stops the MD for a chat on the way round the factory floor (I always insist on a tour for that reason as it tells a lot).
Then you have the companies that come to us because they have run out of cash. They tell their staff that there is no money for pay rises then turn up in a brand new Porsche a few days later.
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They tell their staff that there is no money for pay rises then turn
>> up in a brand new Porsche a few days later.
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The OH worked for a couple of family businesses like that. They were always crying the poor tale. Not even money for more staff uniforms, as skingey as you could imagine, always money for family members company cars who 'worked' there though and they were the worst ones for treating the staff badly. Couldn't work out why they had poor staff turnover though.
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Derek Robinson - helicopter
