| Non-motoring > Management training | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Bobby | Replies: 43 |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 12:48
Management training - Bobby
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I recently attended a two day course where there was lots of management training. Looking at differing learning skills, how individuals learn differently etc etc. Am sure many of you have been on similar. Every theory and learning model under the sun, your Myers Briggs etc etc. To be fair there weren't too many cliches but there were a few "throw paint at the canvas" and "peel the onion layer by layer to get to the core". Looking around me I realised even though I am still in my 40s I probably have a bit of a dinosaur attitude to this sort of thing and what clinched it for me, was the fact that I knew on Wed it would all be put back in my desk and I would get on with my day job. But lots of my colleagues round the table would be keeping it in their priority bundle and doing a lot more work on it. Obviously depending on how hands on each role is, allows some more than others to spend time on theory and strategy etc. So where are you on this? Been through it and retired and glad to get out it? Or embrace the massive industry that revolves around teaching people to be managers but the teachers are people who have learnt the theory and have never had to deal with a team of staff? Or really do see results from spending lots of time perfecting the art of being a manager? And if so, where did you get the time? I have certainly realised that i will need to get on this bus sooner rather than later, even if very reluctantly and cynically..... |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 13:09
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>>So where are you on this? Been through it and retired and glad to get out it? Or embrace the massive industry that revolves around teaching people to be managers >> Broadly the former and pleased to be out of the mill, I am kind of semi retired I guess though amongst other things I do spend sometime helping others, generally SME owners, with management, communications and customer relations. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 13:12
Management training - TheManWithNoName
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I recently covered some of this in my ILM. It was as boring as F and I don't have the memory capacity to remember all the terms and memes etc. Instantly forgotten it now so I carry on as I've always done and use a common sense approach in my daily work. However it certainly supports a massive industry and there are plenty of dull monotone Americans spouting stuff on YT videos. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 13:25
Management training - movilogo
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I have attended several of these trainings throughout the years. My main take away from these trainings is that, in real lives, one needs to get work done by other people. To achieve this, one needs a good amount of Emotional Intelligence/Quotient (EI or EQ). The academic education measures one's IQ but does not teach one for EI. In general, as a person grows more senior, EI matters way more than IQ. Most people claim after the training that they do not get opportunity to test all these skills. However, one can make use of EI skills nearly in all situations (even when dealing with your spouse or children). This is applicable to car4play forum too :-) The key is to understand what level of EI skill you posses and the willingness to improve/work upon it. If you can understand your own emotion and other people's emotion, you can predict how they are going to behave in specific situation and that can give you an edge to get what you want from them. You can turn an enemy into friend (and vice versa). |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:22
Management training - Manatee
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>>My main take away from these trainings is that, in real lives, one needs to get work done by other people. Getting other people to do (the right) things is a definition of management. But a manager also needs to understand and manage him/her self. I found Myers Briggs and similar useful to the extent that it helps to understand other people's natural behaviours and motivation. Just thinking about that before acting has saved me banging my head on many a wall, and unjammed quite a few sticky situations. Years ago when I did an MBA, I had to select some courses. The tendency when picking any sort of option is to pick those that play to one's strengths, and I did some of that, but I also chose a course called Creative Management. It was one of the most eye opening things I ever did. There's a common view that some people are creative, others aren't, but there are techniques that can be learnt and applied for idea generation and problem solving (that go well beyond the That said, most 1/2 day courses are a waste of time for most people. I don't think this stuff can be spoon fed, people have to want to think about it and to a degree manage their own learning. Working with really good people helps. I was never a fan of management-speak in general. The really good people can express themselves in English. I am well de-institutionalised now after 5 years out of it and wouldn't, couldn't, go back to it - I'd be laughing out loud in meetings. Neither would I be able to bear just having to turn up somewhere every day. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:26
Management training - No FM2R
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>>people have to want to think about it add "and want to learn" and I entirely agree. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 21:28
Management training - MD
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| Pardon, I heard that. Can you repeat in English please? |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:23
Management training - No FM2R
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You either have the talent to be a carpenter, or you do not. I cannot change your talent or aptitude. But whatever level of carpenter you are, you will be a better one with better tools. The best carpenter in the world will be better with the best tools, and the worst carpenter in the world will at least be less bad. If there is a difference, it is that the best carpenter knows how much he needs good tools, and the untalented carpenter does not realise their value. The best carpenter will look n his tool box, which he hopes is a full as possible, and choose the right one for the job. The worst carpenter will have few tools, not think it matters and use a chisel as a screwdriver. The best carpenter will achieve some level of result, even with bad tools. The worst carpenter will not. Quite a good analogy I think. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 26 Oct 17 at 14:25
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:40
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>> You either have the talent to be a carpenter, or you do not. I cannot change your talent or aptitude. >> No but you can influence my motivation and you can change my attitude. You can teach a carpenter new skills be they in wood or in business. And you can teach an entrepreneur about working with wood to which they can apply their business knowledge and employ the necessary skills. So the skilled carpenter can become, say, a successful furniture maker, and the entrepreneur can, say, run a chain of picture framing shops. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:45
Management training - No FM2R
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Of course, that is exactly the point. There are many things that A manager can do, but he will need help to do the best that he can. These things are called "tools". They do not give you talents that you do not have. But they are there to help you be better at what you do. Perhaps the analogy wasn't as easy to understand as I thought or I didn't explain it well.. I assume that you've never been a manager of people? |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:16
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>> Perhaps the analogy wasn't as easy to understand as I thought or I didn't explain >> it well.. >> I understood the analogy. Yes a manager provides the tools and the framework in which to use them, though a good manager inspires and empowers above all else. >> I assume that you've never been a manager of people? >> I don't know why you assume that, I have, I have run a couple of businesses and worked in the corporate world, one of the things this has taught me is not to make assumptions about people I have never met ;-) |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:10
Management training - Pat
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>>The worst carpenter will not.<< When the highly trained and intuitive manager finds it's all gone t*ts up and his back is against the wall it's the carpenter with few tools he needs though, and will turn to. The carpenter with only a few tools knows how to improvise and save the day with what you have at hand and not give up. In fact I would go as far as to say that all well trained managers realise this. Pat Last edited by: Pat on Thu 26 Oct 17 at 15:10
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:16
Management training - No FM2R
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No, its the best carpenter with the best tools he needs. No one but a fool would deliberately want someone with less tools. And improvisation is not the sole province of the ill-equipped. Who knew this concept would be so difficult to grasp. Management tools are available for those they can help, who want to be helped, and who would find them useful to increase their performance as a Manager. Only an idiot belittles tools and those who use them. Is that easier for everybody to grasp? |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:23
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>> >> Is that easier for everybody to grasp? >> Why do you think it's difficult to grasp? Tools are important to a manager as they are a carpenter though you cannot simply give someone a set tools and make them a manager any more that you can give someone a set of chisels and a saw and make them a carpenter. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:39
Management training - No FM2R
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>Why do you think it's difficult to grasp? I have no words. >>you cannot simply give someone a set tools and make them a manager No. But what ever their capabilities as a manager, it will be higher with tools than without. >>any more that you can give someone a set of chisels and a saw and make them a carpenter. However bad he'd be, he'd be worse without the chisel and the saw. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:47
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>> >Why do you think it's difficult to grasp? >> >> I have no words. >> That's a first ;-) Perhaps I should have asked "What makes you think that others are finding it difficult to grasp?" No answer needed tho. >> >>you cannot simply give someone a set tools and make them a manager >> >> No. But what ever their capabilities as a manager, it will be higher with tools >> than without. >> >> >>any more that you can give someone a set of chisels and a saw and >> make them a carpenter. >> >> However bad he'd be, he'd be worse without the chisel and the saw. >> Agreed totally! So the manager needs to be able to inspire and empower and would be helped massively by appropriate tools. And the carpenter needs to understand wood and design etc and would be helped massively by appropriate tools. Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Thu 26 Oct 17 at 15:48
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:29
Management training - Pat
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How can I put this tactfully? Surely the management trainer shouldn't get frustrated because others don't agree, or understand his perspective on a question. Surely a good management trainer is happy to explore his trainees opinions, discuss them and counter them calmly?:) Pat |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:40
Management training - No FM2R
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>>Surely the management trainer shouldn't get frustrated I've no idea. Why not ask one? |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:45
Management training - Lygonos
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>>I've no idea. Why not ask one? Apologies in advance, but lolz. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:55
Management training - Pat
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With your obvious expertise on the subject, I assumed I was asking one! Pat |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:56
Management training - No FM2R
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| Thank you for the compliment but no, I am not. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 14:27
Management training - No FM2R
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>>even if very reluctantly and cynically..... And that is the example your staff and other managers will see, or at least perceive. Not all tools will work for you, not all are suitable. But approaching them reluctantly and cynically is probably a reasonable indication of how much you need them. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 26 Oct 17 at 14:28
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:16
Management training - Mapmaker
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>>Not all tools will work for you, not all are suitable. But approaching them reluctantly and >>cynically is probably a reasonable indication of how much you need them Not sure whether you think that he does, or that he doesn't... Nobody needs 'management speak'. Ever. Apart, I suppose, from the illiterate - who need it to prove their illiteracy. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:18
Management training - No FM2R
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>>Not sure whether you think that he does, or that he doesn't.. You struggle to work out when I want a taxi and when I'm trying to avoid one, whether I'm going to The Cotswolds or Bolton, etc. etc. Its unsurprising that you would struggle with this. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 15:59
Management training - Ambo
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I don't think mangement can be taught although managers can be trained on the job. Here the Action Learning approach of Reg Revans sounds promising, however, involving intervention in-company by teachers. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 18:06
Management training - Lemma
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I have been following this thread with great interest. I am a management educator (training is different) and over several decades have worked with middle and senior managers around the world in a range of industries. This has been through MBA and other post-graduate programmes, open executive education courses (ie where managers from different companies sign up to a short course, typically on a specific topic) and in-company programmes as part of a suite of executive development options as well as more specific consultancy assignments. I hasten to add that in addition to my academic qualifications and business school faculty experience I have also worked in industry at senior level in an international context with people and profit responsibility. My experience is that as seniority increases there is a greater need for interpersonal skills as well as greater self-awareness, complemented by the technical/functional skills, often developed at an earlier career stage, appropriate to the business/industry. All of this should be underpinned with a very sound understanding of accounting and finance. If you don't work for a business that makes a profit, then you depend on one that does and in both cases understanding where the money comes from, where it goes and the differences between cash and profit/surplus are valued skills. In addition we now live in a world of life-long learning. The old social contract has gone, there is no such thing as a job for life these days (even for academics!). Hence we should all be concerned about how we improve our employability, so management development programmes can be highly valued by participants especially if they lead to credits or recognised qualifications. If managers aren’t motivated to participate then they waste their time, and mine, and detract from the positive experience of others. I sometimes hear the old chestnut “I’m not interested in theory etc … I just want solutions to my problemâ€. Theory is fundamental to developing solutions, but of course it should not be presented as dry and dusty as the term might imply. The tutor has a primary responsibility to make the programme engaging and stimulating, as was mentioned Action Learning is a valid method to achieve this. For example I teach the theory of markets using a management game. It is highly participatory and enjoyable, and in the debrief and discussion the key points can be easily illustrated. The ability to learn depends on an individual’s learning style, some learn by doing, others (like me) value an insight into the principles and theory. But with middle and senior managers critical to learning is reflection, the ability to look back on the exercise/reading/theory/case study etc and consider how this might be applied in practice. I find this one of the most interesting parts of the job from a tutor perspective, you can almost see the dawning realisation of the change required. In a programme I am currently working on the managers are divided into teams and given a task to undertake, they then have to present their findings to the senior leadership team. A real call to reflection and application, and nobody wants to let the side down. Personally I enjoy working with younger managers, perhaps 28-32, invariably functionally very good but keen to get on in their careers. Typically they need to develop broader management skills to move beyond their functional boundary, but sometimes don't appreciate that. Discussions and challenge can be epic, but fascinating to see the progress. I am still in touch with somebody I worked with twenty years ago who is now on the board of a £billion company and we meet occassionally to informally chat through the issues he faces. However those who perhaps most need management development input are the 40+ mid-career managers. Moving jobs for both professional and personal reasons is much more difficult, often anchored by a mortgage, children in education etc but approaching the time when control over their direction is increasingly in the hands of others. Here an open-minded and positive commitment to self-development can be empowering. I certainly encourage managers to think about how they can develop themselves and refresh their capabilities and hopefully gain some career insurance. If like the OP your employer offers you the chance to go on a management course grab it! You can add value to yourself, and of course repay the commitment the boss has shown in you. If opportunities don't come your way then there are some tremendous resources available on line and it is possible to study part time to improve your qualifications. I thought the OP’s third paragraph in the first post summed up the dilemma we all face – Can I be bothered? Should I be bothered? is this useful? Supposing others make better use of this, where does it leave me? Learning is the only justification for growing older! |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 18:22
Management training - smokie
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| Thanks for taking the time to do such an insightful post Lemma :-) |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 18:36
Management training - Pat
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Yes, thanks for that Lemma, very interesting. Pat |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 19:10
Management training - sooty123
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I'd been watching this thread as well, funnily enough I did a management course last month. It was a three day jobbie delivered at work. It's fairly new (to us) which is good as I don't not heard anything good or bad about it. There was quite a lot of concepts I'd never heard of, things such as my mindfulness and transactional analysis. I tried to stay open minded through out. Although it was a bit odd sat with my eyes closed, lights off trying mindfulness. I'd do something similar again and I try and get as many courses as possible. If for no other reason they're free and I get out of proper work ;-) |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 21:32
Management training - Zero
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>> My experience is that as seniority increases there is a greater need for interpersonal skills >> as well as greater self-awareness, complemented by the technical/functional skills, often developed at an earlier >> career stage, appropriate to the business/industry. All of this should be underpinned with a very >> sound understanding of accounting and finance. One would have hoped that managers attained such positions because they had such skills. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 21:44
Management training - Hard Cheese
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| One of the biggest problems in business is people promoted or self apppointed out of their skill set and comfort zone, the star salesman who is made a manager, he can't mamage and he is no longer selling. And the entrepreneur who makes himself MD when it is his commercial skills that have built the business, he needs to be able to recognise his own abilities as well as those of others and employ someone else to manage. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 22:09
Management training - No FM2R
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>>One of the biggest problems in business is people promoted or self apppointed out of their skill set and comfort zone Not really, in my experience that just isn't all that common. Its mostly something people say about a manager they don't like. One of the biggest problems is that the job has changed since they were appointed to it. Or the demands upon that role have changed. You can then have a perfectly capable, competent person with a decent work ethic who would have been fine if the job had not been changed around them. And that is typically s*** planning by those around him who should have done a better job. If there is one thing I wish Managers would learn and take on board is that they are screwing with people's lives. They should do what they have to do with respect, with integrity and with as much certainty as possible. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 23:09
Management training - Hard Cheese
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>> One of the biggest problems is that the job has changed since they were appointed >> to it. Or the demands upon that role have changed. >> I find that people generally grow with the job or are replaced, training introducing new skills or systems tends to bring people along with the role and in many cases it's the people doing the job that identify the next steps. In my experience the manager who rewards performance by promoting people away from their skill set is a bigger problem. And I have consulted with business owners who want to manage though can't and need help in defining an organisational structure and their role within it. >> If there is one thing I wish Managers would learn and take on board is that they are screwing with people's lives. >> Does that come from a bad experience? I guess we've all come across good and bad management. |
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New Thu 26 Oct 17 23:59
Management training - No FM2R
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Clearly our experiences, or at least our interpretation of them, differ. Nothing to add to that, really. |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 08:15
Management training - Lygonos
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>>In my experience the manager who rewards performance by promoting people away from their skill set is a bigger problem In mine the bigger problem is promoting people who never had the skill set they were supposed to have in the first place. Almost invariably a not-very-good nurse does not make a good nurse manager - empathy and being able to listen are pre-requisites to both jobs. Being able to blow one's own trumpet and reference the latest government initiative as if you wrote it does not equal competence. Maybe I'm just a tired old cynic. (well I know I am, but anyways) |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 09:38
Management training - Mapmaker
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Lygonos>>In mine the bigger problem is promoting people who never had the skill set they were >>supposed to have in the first place. Presumably otherwise known as promoting people away from their incompetence... i.e. taking the nurse who kills (or whatever) patients away from the patients. What that nurse really needs is not to be a nurse, but the NHS couldn't possibly dare get rid. |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 10:04
Management training - smokie
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| Often in a tech world some of the best techs are lost to "management" and fail at it. And that's usually because the tech pay grade ceiling is too low. (That would include nurses too). |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 10:06
Management training - Manatee
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>> Often in a tech world some of the best techs are lost to "management" and >> fail at it. And that's usually because the tech pay grade ceiling is too low. >> (That would include nurses too). I'm led to believe that happens less in the USA, where it is not as unusual for a technocrat to be earning more than his bureaucrat boss. |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 11:16
Management training - zippy
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Our director occasionally joins our team meetings to give us a business briefing. When he left last time, the department managers both confirmed that they had not understood about 20% of what he had said - all acronyms meant for a different audience (the one above). Of course they should have sought clarification! >> I'm led to believe that happens less in the USA, where it is not as unusual for a >>technocrat to be earning more than his bureaucrat boss. In my last job I was paid significantly more than my manager for that very reason, though they didn't like it and getting pay rises was difficult. One argument I had with the person before I left was about the time it took to write a paragraph (probably a day). The complaint was that it should only take 15 minutes at most. Well to write the paragraph took 15 minutes. To do all of the research and number crunching to support that paragraph took well over a day and was all shown in an appendix, that clearly they never looked at! It is understandable that people that speak all the "management guff" and with good personalities get promoted, they get on with their peers and those above also see them as peers. Sometimes the skill sets matter, sometimes they don't. In banking, promotions are definitely not based on your knowledge any more, they are competency based, such a team work, customer focus etc. so it is totally possible for someone with absolutely no experience of the job to get promoted in to a management position. Invariably they then try to change things they don't understand and then wonder why the changes don't work (we don't need to use D&B for a credit opinion for example as its expensive - well no we don't, but to do the work of a £30 credit report will take 3 days and be less informative!) A classic example of this was when a major bank was bailed out in the last decade. Managers from the bailed out bank who were underwriting business loan products with a 120% recovery rate across a small business portfolio where the attrition rate (failed businesses) was 30%, got senior jobs in the new bank - madness! Last edited by: zippy on Fri 27 Oct 17 at 11:18
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 11:32
Management training - Runfer D'Hills
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My favourite sales training film... tinyurl.com/y9vcgzoy ;-) |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 12:22
Management training - DP
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Our Head of Sales used that clip in a sales meeting recently. Went down very well indeed. |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 12:43
Management training - Runfer D'Hills
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I've used it a few times, but I hope I've also been able to convey that it was meant ( mostly ) tongue in cheek ! Usually results in a bit of nervous laughter from the audience though ! Should probably have mentioned that it contains an occasional rude word I suppose. ;-) |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 13:46
Management training - sooty123
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It is understandable that people that speak all the "management guff" and with good personalities >> get promoted, they get on with their peers and those above also see them as >> peers. Known as 'good lad' syndrome. |
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New Fri 27 Oct 17 22:43
Management training - henry k
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>> >>In my experience the manager who rewards performance by promoting people away from their skill set is a bigger problem >> >> In mine the bigger problem is promoting people who never had the skill set >> theywere supposed to have in the first place. >> Sounds all very familiar. When I started in IT it was especially bad. Young sprogs appeared to the existing traditional managers to have no "professional qualifications" like a solicitor accountant etc.because there were no proper qualifications How to keep them ? Give them more pay but they had zoomed up to the top of their pay scale. OK them promote them and around the loop again but they were now managing a team and did not know how to do it cos they are really just a coder. IIRC IBM decided to treat coders as a sort of freak group and to pay the boffin grades. They then had a traditional manager who was paid significantly less. I worked with several over promoted coders and it was awful. Very bright guys but utterly useless in their role. |
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