I really feel that the whole PC thing has gone too far, while equal opportunities for both (all?) genders is important so is it important to recognise, and celebrate the differences. Men opening doors for women and generally being chivalrous establishes a normal for kids as they grow up, is all part of a framework, and helps teach respect. Likewise some separate activities for girls and boys, at school and scouts and guides etc, as well as joint activities of course.
No doubt in the past sexism was too far the other way, my mother-in-law is in her 80's and talks about working in offices in the '60s and '70's where men pinching bottoms, brushing past breasts, and making suggestive comments, was an every day experience, was almost seen as normal. Of course she wasn't happy about it and says that it was not right (though she also says that it is not right to judge yesterday's actions by today's standards).
So things have come along way for the good though I just wonder whether we are going too far along the PC spectrum towards an androgynous society where we all dress much the same, treat each other the same and perhaps as a result more people will have greater difficulty in deciding how to identify in gender terms and ultimately all of us, both (all?) genders, will enjoy less respect from our peers.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Thu 5 Oct 17 at 13:54
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It is what it is, I don't know how one could reach a conclusion, objectively, as to whether it has gone "too far" although we might have individual preferences.
This sort of thing only becomes a problem when one section of society starts to impose its view of the world on everybody else.
I would object for example if an employer said be that all personal pronouns and their possessive forms should be replaced by 'them' and 'their', and that anyone not following this policy would be subject to disciplinary action. (Give it time!)
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Now that's thought provoking.
I feel an afternoon in the greenhouse coming on to ponder it!
In the other thread I mentioned an MD I had to find a way to deal with.
I was a very naïve 24 year old, and I desperately needed to keep my job and company car just to survive.
I had to find a way, there were no layers of protection like there are now to hide behind, or ask for help.
It was compulsory to attend sales conferences and they were always 2 or 3 days so I quickly decided to tell everyone that I didn't drink at all and was completely T Total. That meant as the night wore on I was at the very least, more aware of the way things were going.
It meant I could attend dinner without being plied with wine, brandy and after dinner drinks and plead that I was then off to bed instead of going to the obligatory night club.
It wasn't an option for me it was a necessity to keep my job and income.
I wasn't assertive then, I was scared....scared and out of my depth but I had to find a way.
Now so often, people don't have to find a way because there are 'paths' to follow, rules and official routes that apply to all to protect us and I agree, that is no bad thing.
I do know though, that those experiences were part of what formed the character I have been since then.
They made me grow up, they made me aware of self protection policies I never forgot and without those I would have been lost.
Pat
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Personally I'll hold the door out for anybody following me. Of course for a women, but for a man also. Or a child.
I stand when anybody joins or leaves the table etc. etc. I cannot off hand think of a courtesy that I would only offer to a female, though there are probably some.
My 15year old daughter is absolutely vociferous about activities for girls and boys within school. She utterly hates the idea. The first time I am aware of her getting emphatic about the matter was at school when she was about 8yrs old with the Head of Games. And there have been many instances since; which are not, and never have been, either initiated or encouraged by me. She simply thinks it is entirely wrong and sees no reason why anybody should be restricted by their sex.
If you think I am strong on prejudice, bigotry or discrimination, you should try raising the subject with her!
Dressing the same? well she wears everything from cocktail dresses to combat clothing, whereas I guess that most boys give the cocktail dresses a miss. She wears a skirt to school, which she was quite happy to do once she had established that she could wear trousers if she wished to.
I rather admire her approach, to be honest.
It hardly needs saying that sexual touching and commenting is obviously wrong.
As for enjoying less respect in the future, if one respects everybody, then how could that occur?
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>>whereas I guess that most boys give the cocktail dresses a miss
I've got the photos of my boys wearing their sister's Disney dresses stored away for when/if they bring back a girl/boy/???friend
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>>I rather admire her approach, to be honest.<<
So do I wholeheartedly.
Pat
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I imagine readers will have seen that Murray Edwards College, Cambridge, which has always been a female only college, is in the news this week. They plan to open the intake to transgender people too. As the criteria is "self identifying", that basically seems to mean that any man who chooses to call themselves female, permanently or not, can apply.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-41498173
Cue much discussion about such things as "female safe spaces", "learning environments" and perceptions of comfort/safety in corridors, changing rooms and bathrooms, both pro and con, of course.
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>> and perceptions of
>> comfort/safety.
>>
That's a tricky one.
If a woman feels uncomforable about having someone who looks like a man but who identifies as female sharing a changing room, is that a valid perception to be respected or not?
If one person's perception of comfort or safety is compromised by another person's perception of identity or behaviour, who is right? Don't we inevitably have to come back to having some kind of arbitrator, "society", who defines an acceptable norm?
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>> As for enjoying less respect in the future, if one respects everybody, then how could
>> that occur?
>>
Your approach is ideal and your daughter has clearly been well brought up ;-), and clearly had a positive and balanced approach herself.
Though we have to recognise the differences between the genders as being positive and not only the similarities, physical strength is one example where most but not all men are stronger than most but not all women, fact! And it doesn't mean that Pat wouldn't beat me at an arm wrestle, it's a general principal. Accordingly I am quite happy if my wife says "you unload the car and I'll make a cuppa" and I'd be very annoyed if one of my son's were to be unhappy with a similar suggestion from either their mother, sister or a girlfriend.
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>>Accordingly I am quite happy if my wife says "you unload the car and I'll make a cuppa" <<
That struck a chord!
Ian is every bit the gentleman and opens doors, carries shopping and is very chivalrous when we're at home or if we're out....and I love that too.
However, if we're working together as lorry drivers, which we often have done and still do now and again, the hard graft is shared equally and neither of us would have it any other way!
Pat
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My daughter is proficient at shooting, fencing, muay thai, fishing and climbing, strong of opinion and doesn't suffer fools gladly. Most Chilean boys are scared s***less of her (I expect this to be an issue in the future).
Still though, I still expect her to both give and receive courteous treatment.
As you allude, it is a respect thing, not a capability thing. It matters not a jot which of you does what, which of you can do what, or which of you prefers to do what, just that you each respect each other and "do your bit".
Respect. It makes the world a better place, and right now the world needs to get on with a bit of serious improving.
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>> Respect. It makes the world a better place, and right now the world needs to
>> get on with a bit of serious improving.
>>
Exactly, and a framework, a set of normal would help, women and men are equals though different, the old and the young are equals though different, black and white are equals though different.
Equal rights and equal respect does not mean androgynous, ageless, grey sameness ...
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I don't ned a framework to enable me to treat people wth respect. I can just do it. I don't even need to know their sex, colour or anything else.
Its not difficult, you only have to want to.
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>>Exactly, and a framework, a set of normal would help
And what exactly happens to those outwith the 'normal'? The gays, coffee-coloured, middle-aged.
Do they get ostracised and dis-repected?
Or if they are ultimately treated to the same respect, then what was the point of the framework?
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> And what exactly happens to those outwith the 'normal'? The gays, coffee-coloured, middle-aged.
>>
>> Do they get ostracised and dis-repected?
>>
No, the point is that as a society we need to acknowledge that everyone is equal, that everyone deserves the same respect, that everyone deserves the same opportunities though all of that does not mean everyone is the same. Differences should be celebrated.
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>>Differences should be celebrated.
I'd prefer that differences were ignored and the same respect offered and expected to/from all.
Similar sentiment I guess in the end.
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>> Respect. It makes the world a better place, and right now the world needs to
>> get on with a bit of serious improving.
>>
>Exactly, and a framework, a set of normal would help,
How would it help? Why do I need to classify you to treat you with respect?
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>>I cannot off hand think of a courtesy that I would only offer to a female, though there are
>>probably some.
Walking on the outside of the pavement.
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But I would do that for anybody I was with.
Well, unless they were doing it for me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Oct 17 at 13:06
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>> Walking on the outside of the pavement.
Why? the days of being drench by the contents of the night pot via an upper window, or the open sewer in the road being splashed over you by a passing hansom cab are long gone.
Ok So Uber has been banned it might come back, but I doubt it.
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>>> Walking on the outside of the pavement.
>
>Why?
I usually put myself closer to the edge of the sidewalk / closer to the traffic.
Habit, I guess.
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Raising one's hat (if worn) to a lady on meeting her - is a given.
I always open and shut the car door for Dee.
These days, at my age and with my wobbles, I probably would not give up my seat to a lady unless she was embarazada, or obviously in difficulties. I would always offer my seat to a physically disabled person.
OT sightly.
At King's School Rochester, where I was a day pupil for three years, because it was closely linked to Rochester Cathedral (a service every Friday for all) we had to raise our straw boaters, or school caps, to members of the C. of E. clergy we passed in the street.
Even as day pupils, we were forbidden to go to the cinema in term time!
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>> Even as day pupils, we were forbidden to go to the cinema in term time!
I'm a mere 55, Roger. We also had that rule. Indeed, our own parents couldn't take us to the cinema without written permission from the school without breaking their rules. Once, and only once, the whole school was surprised to be taken over the road to the cinema one afternoon, where we memorably saw "Young Winston". That probably tells you all you need to know about the place. I'll add I loathed every second, more or less, of my twelve years there.
There were many other rules that I'm pretty sure the school doesn't do any more. I did look online to see what the current school rules are, but they don't seem to publish them. Perhaps they don't have them any more.
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. Indeed, our own parents couldn't
>> take us to the cinema without written permission from the school without breaking their rules.
What was the thought behind that rule, what purpose did it serve?
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I have no idea, Sooty. I was just blindly never going into specifically banned cafes in town, whether holiday or term, making sure I wasn't wearing mufti before 5pm on a Saturday in the summer and always having my cap on in the street, amongst much, much, other stuff.
Get caught and I think the start point was a "drill" which was 30 minutes extra work in silence one lunchtime. Then a Thursday detention, an hour of silent work starting at 7pm. Then Saturday detention, also starting 7pm. All of these could be doubled if required. We were at school on Saturdays anyway.
Then a visit to the Head for a Talking To. Then, yes, there was mild corporal punishment available, either in his study, or in front of your form mates, or at worst in front of the whole school. I only ever saw that once. Then expulsion, which happened once or twice.
We're only talking 1968-1980 here too, not the nineteenth century.
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No doubt many other rules were entirely arbitrary. Mind you kept someone in a job I suppose.
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>> all you need to know about the place. I'll add I loathed every second, more
>> or less, of my twelve years there.
I loved my time at boarding school (from around 13½ yrs old). 'Twas a State School which took boarders - a rarity then and now, too)
I'm grateful that my grandchildren are having the opportunity to experience all that a private boarding school, with out of this world facilities and an excellent record with A level results, offers.
My daughter finds it hard to be separated from them, but the children are happy and settled after a few bumpy starts.
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>> Why? the days of being drench by the contents of the night pot via an
>> upper window, or the open sewer in the road being splashed over you
Might be a risk in some parts of Norwich on a Saturday night.
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>>Why? the days of being drenched by the contents
So as not to be seen as an oik not a good enough reason for you?
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As that is a stupid comment, no its not good enough reason.
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>>to the cinema one afternoon, where we memorably saw "Young Winston". That probably tells you all you need to know about the place.
In our case, "Les Enfants du Paradis" and several French "Films Noirs". Our French teacher arranged these trips but you didn't have to be learning French to attend. The school must have been more enlightened than I thought.
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>> So as not to be seen as an oik not a good enough reason for
>> you?
>>
Oikery noticed by which side of the pavement someone walks on?
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>> Oikery noticed by which side of the pavement someone walks on?
>>
Or born on?
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Or born on?
>>
Babies born on a pavement. Whatever next...
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>>Men opening doors for women
Shouldn't that be; People holding doors open for others?
It's just a polite thing to do, male or female. It's like waving or mouthing thanks to the driver stopped at a zebra crossing for you, some people care, some don't.
What I dislike is show some respect because I am your elder - rubbish - respect should be earned and I dislike holding doors open when the recipient doesn't even acknowledge it; they are rude!
People have to remember that courtesy is a privilege and not a right and should to be repaid with a simple smile, "thanks" or "ta"!
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So true Zippy.
I'm 71 but I will still step off the pavement to go round others much to Ian's annoyance!
He insists upon walking on the outer side of the pavement and refuses to move for anyone younger than I am. He's amazed at how many will just let me do despite it being obviously something I am not able to do easily.
Thank you costs nothing and it's really not hard to say, so why do so many have a problem when a door has been held open or you've slowed down to let them into a gap in the traffic?
I think the answer is that it's the way they've been brought up.
Pat
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It seems death threats and insults are routine for anything that upsets the sensitive souls who use social media. I am safe from these, as this and a couple of similar chat rooms are the nearest I come to these media.
Otherwise, the Ambos would go in fear of their lives - for our speech. We use common-or-garden, middle-class Received Pronunciation, known for its clarity. This was widely accepted and understood for about 6 decades in our experience but seems now to be taken as an indication of someone putting on airs. Essex is the new PC RP.
Three years ago my daughter was in hospital. She asked a nurse for some more water and the riposte was "Cor, you're posh, int you?" (Admittedly, this establishment was in - Essex.)
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The BBC is particularly bad. Too many presenters speaking badly, ungrammatically and with overly broad accents one can cut with a knife.
Don't get me wrong - I'm happy with embracing regional differences, but not at the expense of decent pronunciation.
I, being retired perforce look at, or listen to, (or ignore some) daytime TV. One particularly annoying, to me, presenter, is the too often seen Dom Littlewood, whose voice, tone and method - a sort of low-voiced confidential accented estuarial English - brings to mind an East End spiv, offering "dirty postcards Guv?"
Last edited by: Roger. on Sun 8 Oct 17 at 10:09
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Is complaining about accents akin to complaining about skin colour, i.e. "it's different so I don't like it". Though of course. accents are not protected under legislation.
Personally I think accents add something positive to the mix!
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 8 Oct 17 at 10:27
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youtu.be/gou1cspUfdY
Perhaps they should have stuck to speaking like this?
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Does "decent pronunciation" happen to correspond to your pronunciation by any chance"
I can't think of any TV presenter who has got an accent that makes it difficult to understand them and that is all that matters surely.
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>> I can't think of any TV presenter who has got an accent that makes it
>> difficult to understand them and that is all that matters surely.
>>
Remember John Cole talking with a large Ulster gobstopper in his mouth - "Hondootedly Mossis Thotcher ... " ?
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>> Remember John Cole talking with a large Ulster gobstopper in his mouth - "Hondootedly Mossis
>> Thotcher ... " ?
Thinking back he's the only one I've ever, and then only mildly, had difficulty understanding. OTOH the bits of archive reporting inserted into current news programmes show just how 'RP' the BBC was forty or more years ago. It's interesting, and to somebody who has an identifiable regional accent (West Riding) gratifying, to hear the range of accents on current BBC Radio.
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"One particularly annoying, to me, presenter, is the too often seen Dom Littlewood, whose voice, tone and method - a sort of low-voiced confidential accented estuarial English - brings to mind an East End spiv, offering "dirty postcards Guv?"
I see it as just another 'dumbing down' move by the Beeb. Dom's accent reminds me of a particularly unpleasant Tilbury FC supporter who, whilst visiting Bury Town's football ground, was swearing profusely and referring to the locals as 'in-breds'. I had to remind him that, if he wanted to meet 'in-breds', he should have travelled a little further north into Norfolk.
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The worst voice I can think of is that of the actor Ray Winstone. Probably a very nice bloke but pretending to be one of the Krays does grate on my North Western ears. He does on-line betting ads on internet sports programmes.
He doesn't seem to know that the letter T exists.
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>>The worst voice I can think of is that of the actor Ray Winstone
He sounds like 'the real thing' to my sowf lunden ears, unlike some who pretend to be cor blimey geezers, but ain't:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns5AJK9qStM
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We're in Greenwich this weekend, lots of Sarf Lunnon torkin bout ere. Interesting place though, lots to do and see. Joining the commuters on the river bus tomorra ...
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>> lots of Sarf Lunnon torkin bout ere
Do they still speak not like they oughta, in the smoke then? .. we escaped from sowf lunden 30 years ago and I woz under the impression that many areas I knew as a young scallywag were sort-of gentrified now.
The one-bedroom flat we lived in at Bankside (Tate Mod) would now set ya back arthur mill.
My sisters daughter has a franchise for this place in Greenwich: tinyurl.com/ybbpmntm
she's on the look out for a man if you're interested. She's quite young (42) and her name is Liz, I call her mad Liz! She's a bit of a looker, like. Done some modeling and acting not that long ago. Lemme know howl you get on ;)
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Winstones voice in that clip is mild compared to the adverts he does for Bet365, Perro. He just comes over like a Sarf London thug bank robber in them.
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>> Howls about this then
Careful - we must be on guard against Savilisms creeping into our speech. :)
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Greenwich locals are a bit posher though the Old Kent Road is not far away, nor are the Bow Bells
Hmm, reckon if I even took a butchers my mrs would tell me to sling me hook ...
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>>Greenwich locals are a bit posher though the Old Kent Road is not far away
Tis where I was Bjorn, changed a bit over the last 50 years though and I won't be moving back any time soon!
>>reckon if I even took a butchers my mrs would tell me to sling me hook ...
That's a shame Cheeseman ... Lizzie is on the left with her friend Jenny (a Welsh maid)
www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/37328973490/in/dateposted-public/
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>>Nuts on the dog!
Good to see 'em, they didn't descend for a long time, was quite concerned TBH. He's still a puppy at 2 1/4 years old!!
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>> Tis where I was Bjorn, changed a bit over the last 50 years though and
>> I won't be moving back any time soon!
Yup its been improved since you left and
www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47248221.html
no you won't be moving back any time soon.
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>>Yup its been improved since you left and
>>www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47248221.html
Hartley’s Jam Factory!! - my ole mum lived next door to that (Rephidim St.)
I used to deliver paper there when it belonged to Thom and Cook paper merchants (now at the Bricklayers Arms)
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Getting a mortgage could be sticky.
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That area looks like the preserve of the well-off.
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What's going on there then Dog?
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This, Cheesman. They were doing some charity thing at London Zoo about 4 years ago:
www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/36891582284/in/datetaken-public/
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>>What I dislike is show some respect because I am your elder - rubbish - respect should be earned
I don't agree with that "respect should be earned" stuff, Aside from anything else you can't really give no respect in any situation until they've earned it. You should always be courteous and behave respectfully - until someone gives you sufficient cause not to.
Of course, one way to lose my respect is to say "show some respect because I am your elder "
Though behaving respectfully and giving respect, are kind of different things.
>>I dislike holding doors open when the recipient doesn't even acknowledge it; they are rude!
Agreed, but since I live in one of the most discourteous countries in the Universe than as I tell my children; We do not behave courteously & respectfully because we want thanks, we do it because its the right thing to do".
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>> I don't agree with that "respect should be earned" stuff,
I do, no-one gets my respect until know they they have done something to earn it. . However I treat everyone I don't know with common courtesy, unless they do or say something to lose that right.
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I think treating people respectfully and respecting a specific person are different things.
We all deserve to be treated respectfully as we should treat everybody respectfully. That's not the same as the case of respecting a particular person over and above that, where I guess it should be earned.
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>> I think treating people respectfully and respecting a specific person are different things.
>>
>> We all deserve to be treated respectfully as we should treat everybody respectfully. That's not
>> the same as the case of respecting a particular person over and above that, where
>> I guess it should be earned.
>>
I agree with that, though I think that there is some merit in the values that those of my age (mid 50s) and older were taught, respect your elders, be chivalrous to women, open doors, walk on the outside, have table manners, etc etc.
I don't think the PC drive to sameness is the answer, there is more to fear from being part of a society that has been dumbed down by over blown political correctness where no one dares express an opinion, in an expressive society everyone should be able to be able to celebrate who they are without fear and all should be encouraged to join in.
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>>
I don't think the PC drive to sameness is the answer,
To be honest I'm not even seeing the connection between the two. Why is classification either necessary or counter productive for courtesy and/or respect?
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>> Why is classification either necessary or counter productive for courtesy and/or respect?
>>
It's not a matter of classification, rather it's not being afraid to stick up for who or what you are, white, lesbian, vegan, green, asian, british, straight, meat eating, tory etc etc.
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Ok, but what has that got to do with courteous and respectful behaviour?
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>> I don't think the PC drive to sameness is the answer, there is more to
>> fear from being part of a society that has been dumbed down by over blown
>> political correctness where no one dares express an opinion, in an expressive society everyone
Is there really such a drive? I mean outside of headlines in Mail, Telegraph etc or focus on odd and occasionally egregious examples elsewhere in media. The term PC is in itself heavily laden as it's only used in a pejorative sense; nobody is in favour of 'PC'.
In spite of working successively in the public and then charitable sectors, both rightly focusing heavily on equality, I've rarely if ever felt unable to express an opinion. And if I was it was probably an opinion that needed more thought!!
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Our PC androgynous society ... - Manatee
