London mayor seeks curbs on wood burners
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41439268
I wondered when this would happen.
When the clean air act 1956? was introduce it had an impact on households and of course on air quality.
IIRC the new rules were smokeless fuel, no starting a domestic fire with newspaper and kindling but must use a gas poker or a hot air blower etc..
Meanwhile new generations seem to just raise two fingers and blame diesel.
Its all progress ?
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Progress? Probably not, but they are fashionable. A nice focal point in some houses but from what I've seen they are pretty poor at heating a house. There's probably a good reason many houses had gas central heating fitted.
No doubt we'll hear how you can heat the house for a week on a twig in one ;-)
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Gas was relatively cheap then but it has lost some of it's price advantage.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 29 Sep 17 at 12:52
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>> Gas was relatively cheap then but it has lost some of it's price advantage.
>>
>
I was thinking more about efficiency and logs aren't that cheap. We used them in an open fire for a bit.
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We've got two woodburners. IMO they're only worthwhile if you've got a free or very cheap source of fuel; laws of supply and demand have pushed the price of seasoned logs up over the past few years.
One of the reasons for buying this house was that it had the woodburners, plus cooking on LPG; my previous experience of West Wales in the early 1990's was that power cuts were quite frequent and it was wise to have alternative methods of cooking and heating. Not so much the case nowadays but it's still a useful facility.
Woodburners are worth the effort and hassle though; plus they really came into their own five years ago when we had a house fire, which knocked our oil-fired central heating (and of course hot water) out for several months.
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As I live just inside a London Borough this ‘ban’ could affect me. I bought one of the DEFA approved wood burning stoves for our front room as it gives an extra boost in the winter times, we buy a couple of 1m3 bags of hardwood in the autumn that usually sees us through to the spring, we pay about £90 a bag for kiln dried logs.
I just can’t see people around me stopping their Sunday bonfires, plus how will they tell if I’m using it? Infrared cameras?
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how will they tell if I'm using it?
your neigbours will oblige! ;-)
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Except they are all doing it as well!
Sounds like the hosepipe ban enforcement..
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I'm on the ole LPG too for the gas hob. I like the smell of LPG, it reminds me of holly days in caravans when I was a young goat.
I've just bought a tonne of Taybrite for £420. I've used wood for the last couple of years, and like it, but I may have to move my log store if the soakaway for the sceptic tank has to be dug up :(
I wont light my multi-fuel stove until all saints eve, and that tonne will last me through to Alban Eilir.
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We're in a smokeless zone here in Arcadia. Naughty me, I've had 2 cigars today !. A lot have woodburners round here, I like the woody smell of an evening when I do the rounds of my estate.
I don't really see a problem with air quality...No class 9Fs leaving smoke trails or claggy diesels. No factory chimbleys or coal fires in every house. Most pollution nowadays is trundling along a nearby main road.
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>> I don't really see a problem with air quality...No class 9Fs leaving smoke trails or
>> claggy diesels. No factory chimbleys or coal fires in every house. Most pollution nowadays is
>> trundling along a nearby main road.
>>
That's what I don't get, Ted. There's no doubt that in the UK, the air quality must be considerably better than it was back before the Clean Air Act especially in urban areas. It cannot surely be all down to cars and lorries?
Furthermore, I note that whilst encouraging us all to move to renewable electricity, green everything and electric cars, the government is also intending to build more airports to service more flights. Last time I looked, electric propulsion for aircraft wasn't a reality.
Can I be excused for thinking there's a conflict of aims here?
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I was lead to believe that woodburners are very green on renewable side of things, a properly managed forest of cutting and replanting can have almost zero impact on CO2 as the trees then absorb what is released during the burning process.
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>>West Wales in the early 1990's was that
>> power cuts were quite frequent and it was wise to have alternative methods of cooking
>> and heating. Not so much the case nowadays
Very much a feature. Flickers, cuts of a few seconds, or half an hour are quite common, almost routine. We keep hurricane lamps filled and ready hanging in the kitchen.
The annoying thing is that there is no way of knowing how long the cut is going to last. The power may come back on the moment we get the lamp going, or it may be off all evening.
We have a wood-burning Rayburn for heating, cooking and hot water, and open fires in other rooms as needed. We have free wood - otherwise it's £100 a truck load, which burns in no time.
I know woodburning stoves are more efficient than open fires, but they are soulless things by comparison. It's like watching a fire on television while being heated by infra red from a machine. A well-designed open hearth throws heat down onto your feet. The cats know which is better.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Sat 30 Sep 17 at 08:26
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>>I know woodburning stoves are more efficient than open fires, but they are soulless things by comparison. It's like watching a fire on television while being heated by infra red from a machine. A well-designed open hearth throws heat down onto your feet. The cats know which is better. <<
Exactly right!
But nothing beats the smell of a good garden bonfire, a deck chair and a long poker!
Pat
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We have a wood burner and access to plenty of free fuel. Oil CH and dual fuel stove, so reasonably self sufficient if the power goes off or weather turns nasty.
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>>But nothing beats the smell of a good garden bonfire, a deck chair and a long poker!
I've got a long poker, had it for years, still comes in handy now and again.
:}
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But nothing beats the smell of a good garden bonfire, a deck chair and a
>> long poker!
>
not everyone's neighbours will agree.
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If you lived in the Fen sooty , you don't have that many neighbours and the wind that never stops blowing completely will always blow across the fields sometime!
Pat
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I have and do live in the fens, but don't worry they're about wherever you live.
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>>We have a wood-burning Rayburn for heating, cooking and hot water, and open fires in other rooms as needed
Couple of my friends up on Bodmin Moor had solid fuel Rayburns, used for some of their cooking + all of their heating and hot water.
Another friend, BIG Terry (now dead Terry) had an open fire with a back boiler which fed the rads + hot water tank.
Wish I'd bought a Rayburn really, I could have got a good reconditioned one for another £1k on top of the £1k I spent on my Hunter Herald stove. Think I can feel another move coming on ... Herefordshire looks nice :)
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>> Very much a feature. Flickers, cuts of a few seconds, or half an hour are
>> quite common, almost routine. We keep hurricane lamps filled and ready hanging in the kitchen.
>> The annoying thing is that there is no way of knowing how long the cut
>> is going to last. The power may come back on the moment we get the
>> lamp going, or it may be off all evening.
>>
That was my experience when I lived in Narberth. Nowadays in Carmarthen it's usually high winds which knocks the supply out, only a few seconds but inevitably in the middle of typing a long reply or uploading a pic on the PC!
We have a large sub-station only a mile from us, a good thunderstorm usually does for that.
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>> That was my experience when I lived in Narberth. Nowadays in Carmarthen it's usually high winds which knocks the supply out
Ours goes off for a few seconds at a time, no more. It is nowhere near as frequent as it used to be though.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 30 Sep 17 at 17:40
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>>
>> Ours goes off for a few seconds at a time, no more. It is nowhere
>> near as frequent as it used to be though.
>>
It doesn't matter whether it's a few seconds or an hour. You've still lost the work, the clock has still stopped, and you don't know how long it's going to last until it does come back on.
Such gliches and flickers would be unacceptable in a busy city, and they presumably have thunderstoms there too.
They like to trot out the miles of power lines and fallen trees argument, but really I suspect it is just that they use old-fashioned equipment knowing their rural customers don't have the power to protest.
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If you choose to live in the country you have to accept the disadvantages as well as the advantages.
Cities have less power cuts simply because the supply lines are mostly underground and less prone to damage. Power companies will also prioritise restoring power to a quarter of a million people in a city to 47 living in a remote Hamlet.
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>> If you choose to live in the country you have to accept the disadvantages as
>> well as the advantages.
>>
True. And it's well worth the minor irritations.
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>> you have to accept<<
I read CG's post first thing this morning and have been working away in the greenhouse ever since trying to supress my national instincts!
But I can't.
We don't 'have to accept' anything.
We have a duty to ourselves not to.
It is the way to letting the 'wrong way' win.
We can 'be aware of' or even 'weigh up the options' but 'have to accept' is not in my vocabulary and it never will be.
Sorry....I'm off back in the greenhouse now to dismantle the summer hanging baskets and ponder some more.
It just needed saying though:)
Pat
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>> But I can't.
>>
>> We don't 'have to accept' anything.
>>
>> We have a duty to ourselves not to.
>>
>> It is the way to letting the 'wrong way' win.
Well said Pat ! Some of us feel exactly the same way about certain current political matters. Glad to read that you support our right, and indeed consider it our duty to object to them.
Most refreshing.
;-)
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I realise that was a TIC dig Humph, but I genuinely do accept that you have that right over certain political matters and indeed, that is how it should be.
What I don't understand is all the petty name calling, bitterness and bad feeling over a democratic vote result.
Accepting the result is absolutely your right to object to and to be fair, I don't think I heard much in the way of name calling from you....just sensible reasons from your point of view.
Pat
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Wrong chap pat, humph doesn't post here anymore.
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>> Yes he does;)
>>
>> Pat
>>
He posts using someone else's log in or he here under a different name?
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He changed his user name to Runfer Sooty some time ago.
There was a bit of a thing where a few did it around that time too.
For what my opinion is worth, I don't think it should be allowed but there we are, that's just my opinion!
Pat
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Can't say I noticed, doesn't bother me. I suppose it could be a bit confusing if user names change to know whos who. But for me* I've no idea who anyone is anyway.
*noted some know each other outside of here.
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What a curious and cockeyed way of looking things. If I chooose to buy
A flat in the middle of the City I would accept that there is going to be a deal of noise, people, lack of parking, as well as the benefits of having facilities such as theatres, cinemas
restaurants, shops close to hand.
I would not move to the city and then start complaining that there were too many people there or that the thei roads are congested with cars
If I choose to live country there is going to be space around me, the countryside to wander in and a degree of peace and quiet. I would accept that there Is going to be a drive to the shops,,cinemas ,restaurants etc. I would also accept that there is a greater possibility of a power line being knocked out in a storm or that the roads being blocked by snow are greater than in the middle of London or Manchester say.
Again I would not complain about these things. They are consequences of the choice I made.
Constantly moaning about everything is a tiresome habit.
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You entirely missed my point CG.
There is a difference between 'constantly moaning' and meekly accepting anything.
If you look, there is always middle ground and backed with a little bit of sensible discussion and give and take on all sides, a reasonable solution can usually be found.
Once anyone starts to feel they 'have to accept' anything then you are letting yourself down, opening the door to being walked all over and unhappy.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Sun 1 Oct 17 at 16:22
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i make a simple statement that you have to accept that there is a difference between living in the country and living in a city, self evident I would think and you launch into your usual speech about being a rebel all your life and you never accept anything etc, etc.
Bit odd really.
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Oh for goodness sake CG surely it's time to start taking things a bit more light hearted and to stop analysing every little thing anyone says.
The addition of :)'s and the way it was written were a clue.......or would have been had anyone else written in that vein!
C'est la vie.
Pat
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CGN's absolutely right about the choices.
But my beaf with the rural electicity supply is
1) The power cuts aren't caused by the long overhead power lines being vulnerable to trees. They come and go much too quickly for that to be the explanation.
2) we are charged the same price as areas with a better supply. Yes, it cost more to run the lines in the first place, but we or our predecessors had to pay for that, sometimes thousands of pounds per house.
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Cliff, I think you'll find you're charged more in rural areas than in urban or suburban areas. Pricing is very much by postcode.
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Why would you buy a wood burner over a multi fuel stove, unless ‘wood burner’ is generic for all stoves?
I had installed a Morso Badger in 2003, and burn a combination of logs & coal. I always brought home some wood after walking my dog ( sadly no more) and now pay around £60 for a builders bag of seasoned wood which lasts me a winter, supplemented by other free stuff I collect opportunistically.
It heats the largest room in the house and as a focal point is unbeatable... the stone fireplace & lintel radiating heat for hours after the stove has gone out.
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If you only ever burn wood a stove specifically designed for that purpose is more efficient. Coal or solid fuel needs a grate to burn efficiently. Logs burn most efficiently without a grate on a fire bed of ash. No need, in fact you shouldn't, remove the wood ash every day.
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I live in inner London. The petrol station along the road sells coal, proper sulphurous coal.
Don't really understand the headline; woodburners (many of them) are outside the scope of the Clean Air Act anyway as they burn 'clean' and those that aren't are already illegal.
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>>I live in inner London. The petrol station along the road sells coal, proper sulphurous coal.
Not allowed to burn that stuff in smoke control areas I believe - I can burn it up 'ere, but choose not to.
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A few years ago, just after I came out of work, a friend and I had an idea to open a small smokery business. We found suitable premises but when we tried to apply for a licence the Council refused our application on the grounds that we were in a "Smokeless" Zone, a couple of weeks later the local Prison opened one! - Me thinks some back-door dealing was involved! ;-)
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>> Me thinks some back-door dealing was involved!
Quite rife in jails where groups of men are incarcerated without female company for many years at a time, I believe.
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Using wood burning stoves in cities. - sooty123
