| Non-motoring > Plumbing in flats | Miscellaneous |
Thread Author: smokie |
Replies: 33 |
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New Tue 22 Aug 17 23:24
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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My daughter is on top floor of three storey Edwardian house which has been converted into flats. In the last week or so she has noticed that water (clean water) bubbles up her bath plug when she flushes the loo. She has also noticed it bubbling at other times, presumably when someone lower down flushes. So it seems like there is most likely a partial blockage causing a backdraft of (at the moment) air to push the water back through her trap in the bath. The management company have suggested she should get it fixed then divvy up the cost between the flats but 1) she doesn't have the money to do that and 2) I don't really see why she should (as she will probably have difficulty getting anything from at least one of the other flats). She doesn't really speak to the other people so she doesn't know if they are seeing any issues. The people one level down have youngsters so could be putting stuff down the loo that's causing an issue. Dopes anyone have any idea what DynoRod would charge for something like that? But more importantly whose job is it to get it fixed, and pay for it? To me it is a shared resource and the management company ought to be taking the initiative. |
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New Tue 22 Aug 17 23:37
Plumbing in flats - Manatee
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The usual thing with shared drains when a number of houses are connected and the blockage is on private land (e.g. under one of the gardens in a group of houses) is that those upstream of the blockage share the cost. Don't know about rented flats, or owner occupied with managed shared services. Those 'flushable' nappy liners and baby wipes however are anything but, so you might be on to something. |
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New Tue 22 Aug 17 23:42
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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One problem is not knowing where the blockage is. She couldn't locate the soil stack so it is presumably inside the building, and there's probably no accessible inspection cover. (I tend to think of the worst case...) Just looked at rods, they aren't that expensive but I presume you can't push them round the bend in the loo...? I'm going over with a plunger (probably tomorrow) but I doubt that will have any impact unless the blockage is right at her end of the pipe. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 01:14
Plumbing in flats - rtj70
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>> One problem is not knowing where the blockage is. That was my thought... if it's lower down then your daughter's drain expert might not be able to do anything. >> Just looked at rods, ... I presume you can't push them round the bend in the loo...? Depends on the sort you have I think. Rods are not the only option/tool. I have rods and they are not that flexible. >> I'm going over with a plunger There are larger plungers for toilet type work I think. I'd go around and knowing you're quite practical you'll have a better idea of the way forward. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 03:28
Plumbing in flats - tyrednemotional
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>> The usual thing with shared drains when a number of houses are connected and the >> blockage is on private land (e.g. under one of the gardens in a group of >> houses) is that those upstream of the blockage share the cost. Legislation enacted in 2011 changed this somewhat, and any shared drain within the property boundary became the responsibility of the drainage authority. www.stwater.co.uk/help-and-contact/faqs/who-is-responsible-for-the-sewer-drain-on-my-property/ Won't apply to the flats, but (if the problem is in a shared area of the drain) I would expect it to be the management/tenant company responsibility, and would be looking very closely at the agreement for the same. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 06:21
Plumbing in flats - legacylad
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Why doesn't she write a letter explaining the problem she is experiencing and let every other occupant in the block of flats have a copy. Could it be possible that they have issues? As an aside, and no reflection on your daughter, I find it quite sad that you can live in such close contact with other flat owners and not really talk to them. Whenever I've moved house I've always held a 'get to know you' party and invited about a dozen close neighbours round for drinks and food. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 07:40
Plumbing in flats - Duncan
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I suggest your daughter doesn't stick her head above the parapet unless the problem is causing her a, um, problem. Shared responsibility and collecting payment for same can be a nightmare. I have had some experience of this as a contractor. The usual thing to was to tell the person calling us out that they had to pay and then they had to get the money from the neighbours. Dyno-rod will have a minimum charge somewhere North of a 100 quid. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 07:49
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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Thanks all so far. DynoRod webpage suggests £90 or £145 max but that's for a house rather than flats. www.dyno.com/prices/drains I am guessing three of the 6 flats are the same orientation as hers and will share the pipe. One of those is "DHSS" and has a fairly frequent turnover and the other has a family who got a bit flooded when one of daughter's water pipes burst, and they weren't especially friendly then. They are the ones with youngsters. I'm almost with Duncan really, I'd sooner leave it till it becomes a problem. but then you end up with emergency call out charges and doing stuff quickly without thinking it through so possibly collateral damage. If I can deal with it now at least I am working with clean water not sewage waste!! I'm going to go and take a look today, and make a little effort with the plunger and I will also knock on the neighbours to ask if they are seeing a problem. I think I have some caustic soda in the garage, might drop some of that down too. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:04
Plumbing in flats - sherlock47
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I would suggest that you try whoever she pays her waste water charges to, she cannot be expected to know if it is internal or external. If it is external it may well be their responsibility to do it for free anyway. Certainly Thames Water in the past have been flexible, but just make sure she has a couple of bottles of whisky to hand. They have made extensive use of sub contractors lately who may not be quite so flexible as they like recording photo-evidence. Also make sure that you seen a copy of the lease and clarify the role of the 'managing agents'/freeholder. If they are DHSS tenants with children it maybe even better to call enviromental health to get something done quickly. Last edited by: sherlock47 on Wed 23 Aug 17 at 08:06
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:09
Plumbing in flats - Zero
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| The fact you only have a "clean water" issue, and no-one else in the flats is complaining (remember the lower the blockage those below get it worse and first) suggests its a local issue. IE your daughters flat. Where the washing machine waste is plumbed in is favourite, soap at eco temperatures is a sticky mess. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:21
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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I'm pretty sure the washing machine would not use same drainage as it's in the kitchen on a different side of the flat but I'll try to establish this when I go over. Yes I really need to see her lease, I presume she has it but on the other hand I'd be surprised as she'd often lodge that sort of thing with us. (She is "owner occupier" not renting FWIW). I'll ask her about who she pays her sewage charges to as well. I think the DHSS people don't have kids but we're not sure of the status of the ones who do. I think they rent. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:25
Plumbing in flats - Zero
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| so you have two routes of waste water down the flats? I guess being a large house conversion they all differ in configuration. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 11:01
Plumbing in flats - Manatee
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If you are plungering the toilet then put the bath and basin plugs in with a weight on top:) You know toilet plungers and sink plungers differ? Fragments of knowledge. I'm not an expert, but I am too familiar with drain rods. We have a long (two sets of rods) drain section to the main sewer that has blocked a few times. Last summer Lane's Drains (sub contractor to Thames Water) were down the road with a "recycler" www.hvidtved.co.uk/Sewer-cleaning-units-high-pressure-jetting/Water-Recycling an impressive bit of kit, exploring the main line for "infiltration". I got the foreman to look in my I had to nip off for half an hour. When I came back they had done it. "Tree roots. We cut 'em out with the jet. Should be OK for 10 years". As he had been admiring our chicken palace, I gave him 6 eggs! |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:29
Plumbing in flats - Dog
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>>soap at eco temperatures is a sticky mess. In deed. Clogged up the soakaway from my skeptic tank. I bunged 20KG TWENTY KILOGRAMS!! down the Fokker which cleared it after a phew daze. At first I thought the congealed sticky mess was fat, but we don't cook with fat these days, do we. Smokie's daughter could always try bunging some www.wilko.com/kitchen-cleaning-products/caustic-soda-500g/invt/1159440 down the bog. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:32
Plumbing in flats - Duncan
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smokie, may I suggest, before you get too involved. Normally, the first principle when eyeing up a job, is to find out where the drain ISN'T blocked. In other words, it's no good pumping away with a plunger upstairs, if the blockage is a floor below. What's that you say 'statement of the blank obvious?' You might be surprised. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 08:52
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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Yeah I clearly have some investigation to do before I start getting my hands dirty, so to speak. There is a possibility that the people in the flats below may not be in when IO go, and coordinating any effort from some outside body might be difficult. And there is a good chance I might not even do much today, except put a substance down (I've now found half a pack of caustic soda and a bottle of Mr Muscle toilet gel) after a token plunge. I've no idea what route the drainage takes but it is an older house divvied up into flats. It's quite possible I suppose that the kitchen flows into the same drainage, I'd discounted that for some reason... And to top it all the cat isn't well and I have to take him to the vet's at 11... It never rains... |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 09:41
Plumbing in flats - Falkirk Bairn
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£2 invested in soda crystals won't break the bank. A cup or 2 of soda down toilet, down the kitchen sink can do no harm. If is normal biological blockage it should shift it. If it is nappies , wet wipes etc then it will need something more than a £2 investment. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 10:49
Plumbing in flats - Timeonmyhands
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| Not a relative of Dennis Nielsen living downstairs? |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 10:52
Plumbing in flats - henry k
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>> A cup or 2 of soda crystals down toilet, down the kitchen sink can do no harm. >> Yes the first thing to try.. Maybe ensure the bath plug is firmly in to avoid any back flow ? Forget the bog plunger. >> If it is nappies , wet wipes etc then it will need something more. Indeed. My daughter had a similar sort to flat conversion with three flats below. One was occupied by an old dear who smoker herself to heaven. Thank goodness, now all chip it to sort problems which to sort out without getting the management company directly involved plus handing fees H & S etc. Many moons ago my mothers house had a similar problem in the upstairs bathroom. I had little experience or money but " addressed the problem" Cast iron soil pipe straight down into concrete , a 90 degree bend and 20+ feet to a deep manhole. I broke into a joint just below ground level and the contents " exploded " ........ A young nephew had flushed one of those old cube shaped 13A multi adapter down the loo and that was the cause of the problem. No Dyno rod etc in them days! As an aside. I bought a bottle type brush to clean down the plug hole. A good investment. Obviously not as good as removing the U bend or the bottle trap on sink/basin but the bath / shower trap ? www.ebay.co.uk/itm/71cm-Flexible-Sink-Overflow-Drain-Unblocker-Cleaning-Brush-Cleaner-Kitchen-Tool-/371653697541?epid=607844084&hash=item5688496005:g:ExQAAOSwqBJXXPZw An Ebay search for sink cleaning brush will find a wide variety of similar products |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 11:46
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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Thanks team :-) The plunger I have specifically says it's for toilets but I doubt it will have any effect. I didn't know she had mailed the management company, who have just come back admitting they know nothing about the drainage but saying they would arrange and pay for a problem in the central stack but not if it was in her connection to it. They have a drain man they can call on. I'm going to pop over anyway to have a scout around and maybe knock on the people below. I'll put some gel cleaner down the bath and/or loo too while I'm there but I am not going to do too much. btw she has a "old lady" smoker on the floor below - but she smokes weed not tobacco!! Quite a strong smell of it sometimes when I've been over... (Other half of the building so not likely to be cause or even be affected.) Last edited by: smokie on Wed 23 Aug 17 at 11:48
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 11:59
Plumbing in flats - Manatee
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| How's the feline? Has he/she had a cat-scan? |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 12:36
Plumbing in flats - No FM2R
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>>In the last week or so she has noticed that water (clean water) bubbles up her bath plug when she flushes the loo. If the toilet sending stuff down the drain is causing the water in the bath to bubble, I reckon at best the water is clear, and certainly not reliably clean. You won't get the rods down the toilet. However, for that you can get this flexible thick cable like thing. It unwinds down the toilet and can get around all the bends. However, my limited experience says the blockage needs to be fairly light for that to work. If the toilet drain is blowing back through the bath drain, then I would have thought the problem was not in the apartment, but likely to be downstairs and probably outside - too far really for anything inserted in the toilet and probably needs addressing from outside. Its going to be a shared drain which is, I presume, going to be a shared cost. If you're lucky the Mgmt Company will have to administer the repair. If its her its going to be a right pain. The only way to tell for sure is to look at the lease and contracts. Playing hardball with them is the way to go though. Its unfortunate but I don't think you can ignore it. Toilet blockages never happen at a good moment, if you see what I mean. p.s. Its called an auger cable I think. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 23 Aug 17 at 12:37
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 13:17
Plumbing in flats - Manatee
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>> >>In the last week or so she has noticed that water (clean water) bubbles up >> her bath plug when she flushes the loo. >> >> If the toilet sending stuff down the drain is causing the water in the bath >> to bubble, I reckon at best the water is clear, and certainly not reliably clean. Has to be, it isn't connected to a tap. The first thing to come out will be the water in the trap, i.e. mucky bath/shower water, followed by whatever is pushing it - stinky air, if you are lucky, something else that has gone down the soil pipe if you aren't. It's obvious that the bath waste (and almost certainly wash hand basin's) is into the soil pipe - you can see the same arrangement on the backs of many houses. One thing - if she is on the second floor, unless the problem is between her and the floor below, then others are probably having worse problems than she is. It's just possible that there isn't a blockage at all. Where a sink/bath waste is connected to a soil pipe there is a minimum recommended trap size for the sink/bath, which is to stop the toilet flush from displacing the water in the trap (if it's all sucked out you will have a smelly sink/bath). But that wouldn't explain why it didn't happen before... I'd chuck a lot of water down - flush repeatedly, fill the bath, then empty it while running the cold tap, and see what happens. If the level rises in the toilet bowl then you know you have a blockage, at least partial. If you are lucky the weight and passage of water in the soil pipe will clear it. (Might be an idea to be in contact with the people below while doing this - if it fills up to the second floor and the obstruction is at the bottom, you could flood them with raw sewage!) And if there is an inspection chamber near the soil pipe, get the cover off so you can see what's going on (or past). Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 23 Aug 17 at 13:19
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 13:27
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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Thanks again all. Just back. I did some of the suggestions above and saw the problem for myself. It doesn't spout out of the bath absolutely every time but it's fairly consistent. Also the toilet doesn't immediately drain - it half fills the bowl but it does go down quickly enough that you wouldn't notice a problem unless you were looking for one. I checked a load of gel stuff down the bath and loo before leaving. On the way down I knocked at the ones with the youngster(s) and they too have the same problem. The ground floor people weren't in, but that makes me think it is probably, as someone said, right at the bottom (so to speak!). I did find an outside soil stack, which goes inside above ground floor, but it had inspection covers, and there were also a couple of those in the ground nearby, so I hope they can resolve this fairly easily and without collateral damage for anyone. I'll draft a note for daughter to send to managing agent, who has already said it is their responsibility if in the core stack (which it seems to be). The cat (now 17 years old) was coughing at the weekend, and bringing up unchewed food and a lot of saliva. I was away but SWMBO, in tears apparently, took him to the vet as she thought he was on his last legs. £50 lighter, he'd had antibiotic and some other injection, and a return booked for today, which was either going to be keep him in to put him to sleep so they could take a proper look or he's getting better so just give us some more money then you can go home. At the moment it is the latter. He had a longer lasting antibiotic jab and we need to watch till the weekend. |
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New Thu 24 Aug 17 15:53
Plumbing in flats - smokie
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To their credit,. then management company had a man out by 11 today who has cleared it. Mixture of grease and wipes apparently, but no knowledge of whereabouts it was, not that it matters. Thanks to all for the advice etc Last edited by: smokie on Thu 24 Aug 17 at 15:54
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 14:01
Plumbing in flats - tyrednemotional
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>> (Might be an idea to be in contact with the people below while doing this >> - if it fills up to the second floor and the obstruction is at the >> bottom, you could flood them with raw sewage!) ...back in the day, I had a room on the ground floor of a university hall of residence. The shower on that floor failed to drain, so it was cordoned off, and everyone migrated to the stacked 1st and 2nd floor facilities. It happened to be sports afternoon, so the facilities got some "hammer", and, of course, the water from the 1st and 2nd floors drained nicely, but emerged via the ground floor shower, the blockage being somewhat downstream of there. The most memorable facet, however, arose as water just started to appear under my room door - the ground floor obviously wasn't entirely level, however, as the water had made a bee-line for my next-door neighbour's room, and in there it was already somewhere in the region of a couple of inches deep throughout! Jim (we'll call him that, as that was his name) was sat barefoot (feet in the water) playing his guitar completely oblivious to the surrounding chaos (stoned again!) Absolutely ruined the parquet flooring as well! |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 16:14
Plumbing in flats - Falkirk Bairn
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Saudi Arabia 1970 - ex- US army/airforce barrack blocks. Sink in your room, showers & toilets in middle of block - 20 room on each floor. Colleague had a blocked sink - managed to cadge a plunger, which we then handed on to each neighbour. Made such a difference to the flow rate of the sinks & toilets............. 1 hour later all hell let loose - all the crud had gone downstairs & blocked the main drain. The water from showers, toilets etc were welling up in the toilets & sinks downstairs. Epic amounts of brown water & solids............... Not the best. Local service company came with rods - to no avail. Dug up 100 yds of main drain & replaced it - took nearly 3 days - working in 100 deg Fahrenheit was no joke for the Yemeni labourers - £1.00 per day was their pay rate working 7 days a week - they got leave every 3 years with the travel paid by the Saudi employer! |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 17:19
Plumbing in flats - Ted
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My experience of blocked bogs in the past, with teenagers producing 'bogstoppers', or the girls trying to flush all sorts of 'beauty' products away, is considerable. I've always cleared the problem by using a mop to make a sort of wet piston and vigorously working it up and down in the pan...with frequent flushing. ATM we have, in a plastic bag in the upstairs cupboard, one of those mops that look as if they're made of strips of 'J cloth'. It's a redundant kitchen one and has never failed the job. Of course, this is in a house, not flats. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 17:44
Plumbing in flats - The Melting Snowman
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What are people doing to cause these blockages? I don't think I can remember one occasion when we've had a blocked crapper. However if I'm doing a large load I may flush half-way through. We had a blocked waste on the washing machine once. There was a bend in the pipe and sediment and what looked like sludge from the machine had built up in the elbow. I think some of the cheaper powders put china clay in to bulk them out. |
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New Wed 23 Aug 17 22:54
Plumbing in flats - bathtub tom
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| When I was working, the lavatories blocked in a 4-storey building. Experts were called and the apprentice removed an inspection plate in a 4" pipe on the ground floor. The blockage was above. "I can see the problem" he declared and promptly started to poke it despite warnings not to. I expect you can guess the rest, but suffice to say the ground floor was out of bounds for some time. |
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New Thu 24 Aug 17 11:03
Plumbing in flats - MD
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Kitchen roll/towel is a favourite for bog blocking. It's very effective. A couple of years ago whilst walking aimlessly around Lidl I happened upon what is effectively an air pistol for drain unblocking. Ya pumps it up and yer fires it into the waste. There are various sized rubber washer things to form a seal at that point.........BUT.........make sure the overflow hole is very securely blocked as otherwise you will literally cop the lot.. this bit of kit even has a big enough 'washer' to use in the loo! I've not tried it in the loo as I have a far bigger pump for that. The Lidl jobby is an excellent piece of equipment although rather expensive at £7.99 O:-) |
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New Thu 24 Aug 17 11:14
Plumbing in flats - Duncan
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>> A couple of years ago whilst walking aimlessly around Lidl I happened upon what is >> effectively an air pistol for drain unblocking. Ya pumps it up and yer fires it >> into the waste. Be VERY careful. You could get yourself into more trouble than you get out of. I remember the days when the were called 'Kinetic Water Rams'. I must Google that. See what happened to them. Edit. www.drainbrain.com/pro/waterram.html Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 24 Aug 17 at 11:15
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New Thu 24 Aug 17 11:21
Plumbing in flats - MD
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| It has the ability to blow apart a badly fitted trap/waste, but I try the gently Bentley option first. Never ram it all in on the first date. |
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New Thu 24 Aug 17 15:15
Plumbing in flats - Ted
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OOOOH, missus.....that would sort yer pee trap out ! |
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