Don't have a clue as to what you want for dinner and when you want it or what car you want next or where you are going on holiday ?
That's not indecisiveness that's "constructive ambiguity"
"The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union tells the Today programme the Brexit process so far has gone "incredibly well". He said the lack of clarity over what the government plan is intentional, calling it "constructive ambiguity"."
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On BREXIT, it strikes me that behind the "temporary customs union" which is making the headlines today may be an attempt to retain the status quo without saying as much. Maybe I'm just getting cynical.
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All great strategists use constructive ambiguity.
Keep your opponents guessing, while retaining steely clear-sightedness yourself.
Not saying that's the case in this instance. :)
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>> All great strategists use constructive ambiguity.
>>
It's called negotiation ...
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>> >> All great strategists use constructive ambiguity.
>> >>
>>
>> It's called negotiation ...
>>
We shall see.
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>>We hall see.
Our negotiation team will be totally successful......whatever the outcome.
Even if we have to pay a £200 billion divorce settlement, have no access to the free market. have all expats sent back without any compensation for their property in the EU and have to continue to pay £350 million per week.
It will always be spun that we did the right thing and got a wonderful deal.
Oh and from experience, in business, the best negotiations are the ones that everyone comes away from satisfied that they have a good deal.
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Yep, as long as we have "taken back control" it will all be hunky dory.
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You are so blinkered!
Pat
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Yep. I just can't see those sunny uplands of unbridled freedom and prosperity stretching into the distance like you can. It all looks a bit desperate from where I'm standing.
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Well, that's good CG, because you will be presently surprised while I, on the other hand, will be getting what we voted for.......not what you, and a lot of others, think we voted for.
Good result all round.
Pat
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"I, on the other hand, will be getting what we voted for..."
Are you sure about that?
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>>Good result all round.
No, not really, you see, some people voted for Brexit because they didn't like straight bananas, some because they don't like foreigners, some because they wanted the UK to be in control of its own laws.
This wasn't the binary option that many think it was. The stay in bit was, but the exit option has so many possibilities and none of them were defined so people didn't really know what they were voting for in the true sense. If the country did then there wouldn't be the need for negotiation, we would just walk away at the end date and "stuff" everyone else.
One of the classics is that the UK will be free to control their laws. Well actually only some of them, because many are governed by international treaty so we have to have them anyway and others are there because without them no one will trade with us if we don't have them (data protection standards, money laundering etc.). Other new trade treaties won't be as generous as everyone thinks - US companies are dying to get their hand on the profitable parts of the NHS and any trade agreement with the USA will include lots of negotiation over that.
Just remember, if we have import duties on many foreign goods it just gives the local suppliers and excuse to increase prices and get richer - the Conservatives did not want to repeal the Corn Laws after all as it kept them rich.
My portfolio count: companies suffering from Brexit is now 37%, capital machinery investment is down over 40% from June 16 and R&D expenditure is down approximately 30% across the board. To give an idea turnover just under £4.2 billion and borrow £340 million across the UK and in all sectors. It isn't going to be all rosy for a while!
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 14:46
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>> straight bananas
My wife's elderly uncles voted to leave because of bananas! I am not joking. But he died recently aged 90. So it wouldn't really have had a long impact on him even if he lived for a few more years after BREXIT.
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.....Couple in their mid '70's, that were friends of the family.
He is British through and through (though Ancestry.com suggests a right mix several generations ago). He voted out.
She is British but was born in a colony to colonialist parents from two different colonial powers and lived on the continent for years and has dual nationality with a major EU country. She voted remain.
About six months ago there was a bust up re Brexit and he was railing* that British citizens could need visas to visit EU countries and he was never going to get one and he would never have to visit her relatives again.
She had enough (after 50 years of marriage). A week later cleared half the bank accounts, bungalow up for sale. She is moving to much sunnier European climbs. The thought of being stuck here with one bigot who cant even consider her feelings and heritage when constantly griping against the rest of the world was enough.
She now has a cottage about 2 miles from a large close family group and is having a "whale of a time". Their kids and grandkids fly out on Easy Jet to see her regularly (about once a quarter each so she has someone there every month for at least a weekend).
I visited him recently at the request of my folks as I was in his neck of the wood. The only people who turn up now are care workers. I'm sure he's happy in his own little world though.
*was being rather polite, he was being vicious about foreigners and really spiteful about all races other than pure white English and religions other than CofE. and calling her and her relatives "wogs", even though they are all white European.
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>>No, not really, you see, some people voted for Brexit because they didn't like straight bananas, some because they don't like foreigners, some because they wanted the UK to be in control of its own laws<<
Yes, some of them did.
The vast majority though actually researched it very well and cast a well considered vote.
Contrary to general opinion those who voted for Brexit are not all thick individuals who don't understand what, or why they are voting that way.
I see recent polls show many Remainers now are for Brexit having discovered that we may just have been right.
Never under estimate others intelligence.
Pat
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You ought to share that research with David Davies et al because they clearly didn't do any research before calling the referendum. They haven't a clue what they will actually achieve yet do they.
They seem to be ignoring the easy bit - they have to agree on the BREXIT bill (i.e. how much we pay), citizens rights and the Irish border issue. Only then can we negotiate anything else. They are wasting time.
The way this is going makes you wonder if they are doing it all so badly to run out of time and then cancel BREXIT. They seem to be a bunch of idiots.
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>>They seem to be a bunch of idiots<<
Tories? Idiots?....No, I could have sworn you've sang their praises more than once in the past!
Pat
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The ones in charge of delivering BREXIT are idiots and clueless it seems. I won't tar every Conservative with the same brush.
The EU has clearly stated we need agreement on the financial payment, the Irish border and citizens' rights. That's pretty black and white. Only then can we try to agree on anything else.
And we wasted months from declaring our intention to leave and starting negotiations after calling an election. Utter madness.
If we were going to have an election then that should have happened before we declared we are leaving the EU. Except we all know Teresa May thought she could steal seats from Labour and she got that call wrong.
So can we add arrogance to them being idiots and clueless? And arrogance is dangerous for BREXIT too - we can't assume they'll do us a deal. And it's not just the EU itself as a single entity that will approve a deal, each countries parliament will have a vote too.
So the negotiations might be pointless anyway because we might not get a deal agreed in time.
Nothing we can do about that now though... unless the plan is to mess up the negotiations to derail BREXIT.
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>>The vast majority though actually researched it very well and cast a well considered vote
You always say that. And then refuse to say what people voted for. Something like you can't be bothered, or people will just make fun of you etc. etc. or pretty much anything which somehow results in you not actually saying what you did vote for.
>>Never under estimate others intelligence.
Don't always assume that is possible.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 17:46
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One of my neighbours voted to leave the EU. One of his main reasons was we are letting in too many Somalis.
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Do people outside of here talk much (or any at all) to their friends, family, neighbours etc?
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>>The vast majority though actually researched it very well
And I do not believe that "the vast majority" on *ANY* side of the argument actually researched it very well. Or even at all.
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>>You always say that. And then refuse to say what people voted for.<<
Well, my post has had a swift response from you Mark but surely you realise by now that I'm not going to give you what you're looking for.
Not because I can't, it's because I have that choice and chose not to!
Pat
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Bless.
Frankly I DGAF, I just like making you refuse to answer.
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Poor attempt at a save!
Pat
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I liked Zippy's post somewhere above (14:45)
I'm absolutely sure that none of us knew, let alone understood or properly considered, the ramifications of a vote either way.
I did think at the time I'd done some research of my own, I certainly spent time reading stuff to inform my decision, but I will happily admit I didn't (and still don't) know 1/100th of the true impact.
Every day now I'm reading stuff that I didn't even consider when making my choice. As it happens, almost every one of these items reinforces the fact that leaving the EU is not a good idea and will cost the UK dearly.
Just try putting BREXIT out of your head and look in isolation at what is going to have to happen with, for instance, support of the farming industry, or the changes to drug approval processes, and decide whether you would have voted for them. There are hundreds of similar examples.
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I'm still waiting to hear precisely what are the economic benefits of leaving the EU
It'a all beginning to sound like the South Sea Company's prospectus
" A proposal for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage; but nobody to know what it is."
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>> I'm still waiting to hear precisely what are the economic benefits of leaving the EU
For the next 20 years probably none IMO. In fact things will get bad and we all know that. Overtime things will improve... e.g. when we negotiate some deals.... so end up with much of what we had with the EU. Except we'll have gone through some hard times.
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>> I'm still waiting to hear precisely what are the economic benefits of leaving the EU
Indeed, aren't we all? I voted to remain, but I accept that a democratic process led to a decision to leave. However regrettable that is to me, I now want to understand what happens next, but so far, that still seems to be completely unknown.
Now, as indeed before the referendum, I would just like someone credible to set out what is actually going to be better about being out of the EU than in it. I read the press, I watch and listen to the broadcasts, but no one has ever set out exactly what it is we are to expect or even aspire to or how any of it can be achieved.
It feels a lot like watching a crowd of supporters cheering a team that is almost certain to be relegated, led by the worst manager in its living history.
I've worked in business for nearly 40 years, in businesses that all traded internationally. At no time did being in the EU feel like it restricted that activity when it related to non-EU countries, and it made trading in the EU very straightforward. So, I'd just like someone I can believe, to tell me why it's all going to be better now?
I would really very much like to know.
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>> It feels a lot like watching a crowd of supporters cheering a team that is almost certain to be
>> relegated, led by the worst manager in its living history.
Good analogy :-)
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I doubt if anyone in the EU or the UK BREXIT team knows everything that will be impacted yet. We could end up with no flights to the UK, some drugs not allowed to be used,.... the list is almost endless.
But we are where we are. It's all for the best etc. etc.
When they reintroduce a physical border between the Republic of Ireland and NI and the hostilities start again for a bit... that is also a price worth paying...?? Because without a border we cannot achieve the BREXIT goals for starters.
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Ignoring deals/negotiations and their outcomes. Even if everything is as we wanted we don't have a lot of time to design,implement and test the IT systems we need that aren't needed at the moment.
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Looks like we're all doomed then. Better hit the pub.
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Let's, sincerely, hope we are not "doomed". But is it so unreasonable to simply ask what happens next, what is the plan, and is there a plan? What awaits us in our new found bright future and why is it going to be better? Can someone actually answer that? I'd really like it if they would. Drowning our sorrows and hoping for the best doesn't feel much like a long term plan.
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You'd have to find someone who could put into words what they'd actually voted for, and I don't do well with that. Of course Pat can't, but even people you would think should be capable of doing so struggle.
It is usually barely more rational than the straight banana brigade. The most positive I've ever heard is that it won't be much worse - though even that without any evidence or foundation beyond hope.
I can think of no industry or company that I have ever worked in which will even be able to maintain its current position, never mind find a better one under Brexit.
However, better or worse I wish someone would hurry up and decide what "it" actually is so that we can start working out how to deal with it.
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>> However, better or worse I wish someone would hurry up and decide what "it" actually is so
>> that we can start working out how to deal with it.
That is what we all need. Anyone working in finance, IT, agriculture, road haulage, etc.
There has to be a plan and maybe they can't share it. But I doubt there is a plan. And it relies on the EU and the other EU nations agreeing to it. Just one of them could derail it.
But hey ho. It's what the UK wants and we have to deal with it.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 20:11
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>> Every day now I'm reading stuff that I didn't even consider when making my choice.
Every day Im reading stuff that I knew would be a consideration if we left the EU. There is a shed load of stuff I know of not yet covered or mentioned,
As someone once said. "I know the knowns, I known the known unknowns, I know there are unknown unknowns but I don't know what they are.
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>> Just try putting BREXIT out of your head and look in isolation at what is
>> going to have to happen with, for instance, support of the farming industry, or the
>> changes to drug approval processes, and decide whether you would have voted for them. There are hundreds of similar examples.
>>
I almost always try and avoid politics and forums; it's a futile discussion on the whole
I do however, as part of some work I do, talk to some of the countries largest farmers. They all benefit from the current EU subsidies, and in some cases exploit them to the max. They all agree however that UK agriculture would, in the long run, be in far better shape and far more sustainable without them. New Zealand did exactly that in the '80s when faced with a huge budget deficit, and it now has some of the most productive and innovative farmers in the world. Food for thought, pun intended ;)
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>>They all agree however that UK agriculture would, in the long run, be in far better shape and far more sustainable without them
Without the subsidies, without the EU or without both?
Because without the subsidies I entirely agree, they should be short term use only. But without the EU? I'd be surprised, though I am surely no farming expert.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 21:11
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>> >>They all agree however that UK agriculture would, in the long run, be in far
>> better shape and far more sustainable without them
>>
>> Without the subsidies, without the EU or without both?
>>
>> Because without the subsidies I entirely agree, they should be short term use only. But
>> without the EU? I'd be surprised, though I am surely no farming expert.
>>
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Without subsidies.. Though the reality of much fresh produce is that the UK is a net importer by some margin, so for UK farmers the harder it is for non UK produce to get to UK supermarkets the more power some of them imagine they'd have. Not necessarily better for consumers however :)
Of course, Spain is where most of that produce comes from, and we are their largest single market for most produce. So the Spanish are quite keen on being able to get their produce into the UK. 48 hours stuck in Dover clearing customs is unlikely to do a lorry load of spinach much good !!
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I know in New Zealand they have ongoing issues because of restrictions on seed imports. I wonder where seed used by UK Farmers comes from (not a loaded question, I have no idea).
And not just seeds, but bulbs and plants.
Also, of course, the fact that the UK is a net importer of fresh produce may simply represent the difference between production and usage. It does not mean that there is not significant exported, that production can be increased sufficiently, or that the crops can be re-balanced between the crop split for home usage and that required to satisfy export demand.
Kind of seems like we'd have been better in the EU but with a far, far better strategy and approach to the farming policy which was and is essentially s***e.
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Technically we are a net importer; the reality is we are not far off being 100% dependant on imports most of the year. These are rough numbers, and from memory, but the last research I saw (probably 5 years ago now, but I don't imagine the trend has changed even if the absolute numbers have) showed that we import around 6 billion Kgs of fruit / Veg a year, and export 0.5 billion Kgs. Of the imports 30ish % came from the EU. And half of that from Spain. Of the exports half was potatoes grown in the Uk, and 20% re-exporting from the UK fruit imported from outside the UK. There is already a shift to Africa for importing quite a lot of stuff; this will just accelerate if importing from the EU becomes more difficult I imagine. That and our diet will consist of more potato, kale, sweetcorn and cabbage ;)
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"That and our diet will consist of more potato, kale, sweetcorn and cabbage"
Ah - the first of the benefits is unveiled ;-)
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I won't claim to have considered this last year, and voted remain as the low risk approach. But, we've all been in a meeting where the 'big picture' card gets played to completely trump an entirely rationale position with an entirely ridiculous statement, and are astounded by the audacity of it. Could we be seeing the same played out on a huge scale...?
Look forwards a few years... Europe is already irrelevant to us from a food export perspective. And we import far more from outside the EU. UK retail and food manufacturing supply chains are, on the whole, robust. Shortages are front page headlines today, that's how rare they are. Shifting the 30% that's currently EU to elsewhere is pretty straightforward. The Scottish will be a bit annoyed about whisky, salmon, haggis and shortbread exports, but they want to remain in the EU anyway...
Manufacturing of all types is slowly moving out of the EU. Cars to China, South America, Africa, India. Electronics pretty much all gone, even if much of the IP originates there...or more likely the US... Clothing gone to India , SE Asia, China. So it doesn't matter what barriers the EU puts up. Importing from outside the EU will be easy...why wouldn't they want to sell to us? We'll be a low tariff free trade area. We don't have anough people in the UK to do the work that currently needs doing, so the impact domestically will be low. BMW and MB still want to sell cars; they'll just ship from India or a Africa, where they drive on the left anyway. Admittedly furniture could be a challenge, what with Ikea being Swedish, but they're not in the Euro, so there's hope :p
It does leave the sticky issue of financial services and insurance, but wealth in the EU will decline as economic power moves east so I'm sure our old colonies will welcome us back and there'll be far more money to be made out of the billions of burgeoning middle classes and businesses in China,India and Africa than the Europeans anyway. I mean their legal and financial systems are kind of modelled on ours, so we're well placed to succeed. And the EU was obsessed about dismantling London as a financial centre anyway, much preferring Paris or Frankfurt. So staying in was no guarantee of safety for the sector.
So then what's the EU to us then apart from an easy holiday destination, or, with queues at passport control, not so easy ;)
Note, the above might not be serious...!
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>> I know in New Zealand they have ongoing issues because of restrictions on seed imports.
>> I wonder where seed used by UK Farmers comes from (not a loaded question, I
>> have no idea).
>>
>> And not just seeds, but bulbs and plants.
>>
I think a lot of the seed farms are still in the south lincs and Cambridgeshire area. Quite a few family owned business, I'm not in farming but I don't think it's cost effective to move crop seed very far.
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>> Not because I can't, it's because I have that choice and chose not to!
>>
>> Pat
Thats pat speak for "I cocked up"
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I think it's constructive ambiguity.
Don't let on what you voted for until something is delivered, and then claim that's what you voted for....
...unfortunately, the likelihood of this shambles delivering something (in the round) that anyone would be happy to claim they voted for is so slim, it's a risky strategy.
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>> The vast majority though actually researched it very well and cast a well considered vote.
Laughable as that line is I have emailed Mrs May for a comment. Well her staff at least.
I've had replies before when Cameron decided to step down. You never know if her office is still responding,
But I personally would like more info following on from:
"researched it very well "
Researched what?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 16 Aug 17 at 01:53
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Maybe there will be a final vote. So some voting leave previously will not vote (e.g. deceased) and more younger voters eligible.
Reminds me we've never seen posts from some recently here.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 16 Aug 17 at 01:59
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"Reminds me we've never seen posts from some recently here."
Possibly because of the constant whinging and whining from the Bremaniacs. The joy of being on the losing side is, of course, that you can moan forever more about how, actually, you made the right decision. I sometimes wonder if I would have been the same if the referendum had gone the other way.
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>>I sometimes wonder if I would have been the same if the referendum had gone the other way.
The EU is quite broken and needs fixing and changing. My personal belief is that it would have been better for us to be inside it and driven change. Given that would have needed the country to take its role in the EU a lot more seriously, I feel that life would have been pretty frustrating whichever way the vote went.
Which is quite aside from the total balls up the Conservative part6y made of it from start to finish.
On balance, I shouldn't think the moaning would have been any less, perhaps just with a few changes in focus.
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Using disparaging remarks like "whinging", "remoaners" and "bremaniacs" is not useful or appreciated.
All most people want now is some clarity as to how the situation we face is to be managed, what objectives are set, how they are to be implemented, and a time scale for that so we can plan our commercial and personal lives in response.
None of the above is even slightly clear and being critical of that chaos, and pressing for it to be resolved seems reasonable enough to me.
All I hear from the leavers is "it'll be alright".
That's great then, but could someone please explain how that "alright" situation will manifest itself?
Doesn't need to be an exhaustive list, just a few, preferably factual examples please.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Wed 16 Aug 17 at 10:53
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" The vast majority though actually researched it very well and cast a well considered vote."
Do you really believe that statement? Vast majority ? I would suggest that it is extrememely unlikely bearing in mind the literacy of the average voter!
I quote from the Telegraph - but it is well documented else where,
"The Government's own figures show that 5.2 million workers in Britain today are "functionally illiterate", and 6.8 million are "functionally innumerate".
"Functional illiteracy" is not the same as the blank inability to read anything – but the bar for competence is not set very high. If you can't read the stories in The Sun, or the signs in a station indicating from which platform your train departs, you are functionally illiterate. Similarly, "functional innumeracy" involves such things as being unable to calculate the change you are owed, or how much you spend every month on regular purchases.
That so many people are unable to manage tasks which a reasonably bright 10-year-old could execute with ease is an indication of just how bad things are. The Government has said that it wants to get 50 per cent of the population up to the standard where they can get into university. The reality is that it can't even get 50 per cent of people up to the level of a C grade in GCSE English and Maths: nearly 23.8 million people, or three quarters of the adult working population, do not possess literacy and numeracy skills to that elementary level.
The gap between the Government's endless celebration of how brilliantly pupils are doing, and the dismal reality of low levels of achievement, yawns ever-wider. Vernon Brown is a shop assistant. He was interviewed on Radio 4's Today as an example of someone who left school eight years ago functionally illiterate. He emerged from the school gates not with one or two GCSEs, but with seven."
A more appropriate closing line to your post should possibly be - Never over estimate others intelligence.
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>> A more appropriate closing line to your post should possibly be - Never over estimate
>> others intelligence.
Literacy and intelligence do not necessarily go hand in hand!!
The article you quote appears to be from 2009. The author shows their own ignorance or prejudice by describing the attainment of a C for English and Maths as an 'elementary level'. Whatever the argument about GCSE being easier than O level C in either of those subjects is NOT elementary language or numeracy. If the qualifications at C or above have any meaning at all then they're inevitably going to be beyond a significant proportion of the population.
The fact is that there was no golden age when everybody left school capable of reading Blyton never mind Shakespeare. Military selection for both World Wars showed it. Anybody who deals with the public will tell you they meet people of all ages who cannot read or sign their name properly.
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>>The fact is that there was no golden age when everybody left school.............
The problem is that now we judge worth and value, as well as the success or not of the education system, by how many people pass exams and how many people go to university.
We adjust examination pass rates with both scoring and examination level, We ignore those people for whom classrooms and exams just don't work, despite their skills and values in many other areas, and we attempt to dampen, if not extinguish, their competitive edge.
So we end up with kids in a place they don't want to be, on a path they don't want to be on, with no drive to improve and don't value or acknowledge what they do want to do.
Ridiculous.
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>> The problem is that now we judge worth and value, as well as the success
>> or not of the education system, by how many people pass exams
In pursuit of that aim we no longer teach them a subject and test their knowledge with an exam. Instead we teach them how to pass the exam.
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>> >> All great strategists use constructive ambiguity.
>> >>
>>
>> It's called negotiation ...
Might be, might not, what you giving me to call it negotiation?
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They say there is fruit/veg that has nobody to pick it next month - how true is that. One area that produces a lot of our fruit/veg is the Fens.... So can someone (e.g. Pat) correct/comment on this? Will there be waste? But the supermarkets would buy from the EU instead. And the risk is they continue to do so.
Is this a scare story about veg rotting in fields?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 20:34
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>> They say there is fruit/veg that has nobody to pick it next month -
Dont panic, Pat says the malingering unemployed will be picking it.
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>> Dont panic, Pat says the malingering unemployed will be picking it.
If nobody picks it, some of the truck drivers will have nothing to move. Therefore the truck drivers can/must pick it to keep their jobs. Result because that's two wages.
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From the BBC:
The government says it will propose an "innovative and untested approach" to customs checks as part of its Brexit negotiations.
The model, one of two being put forward in a newly-published paper, would mean no customs checks at UK-EU borders.
The UK's alternative proposal - a more efficient system of border checks - would involve "an increase in administration", it admits.
A key EU figure said the idea of "invisible borders" was a "fantasy".
They are clueless. So no checks at the border.... without a customs union/single market. We'll be told where we can go as in F off.
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When they get around to creating the comedy film, BREXIT (They will!) I suggest David Davis is played by Hugh Bonneville. Or to be more precise his character from Twenty Twelve and W1A.
I'll collect my commission later.
Edit: And where's Perfect Curve PR when you need them? :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 15 Aug 17 at 20:46
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For how to whip yourself up into a frenzy of doom and gloom in 10 easy lessons, just read the 10 previous posts.
Must have been a bad night on TV last night after my bedtime:)
Pat
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So Pat, you think the current government is doing a good job in negotiating BREXIT? I can't believe you do.
They have maybe 17 months to get all sorts agreed and IT systems in place. One example is we need to have a new agreement to allow aircraft to fly anywhere.
I do wonder if they will just make the negotiations stall and fail to just cancel BREXIT. I assume you'd be happy if that happened.
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It's OK RTJ, the vast majority of those voting BREXIT thought through everything in advance so will have the answer for the aircraft problem, and all those other issues which have yet to surface into my scope.
I'm sleeping so much better knowing that. :-)
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Yes, don't forget....
"The vast majority though actually researched it very well and cast a well considered vote."
Why won't they tell us? Well, don't worry too much because that's already been explained as well.....
"Not because I can't, it's because I have that choice and chose not to!"
Which pretty much sums up many of the Brexit voters. They genuinely have no clue. Not one. No way of reasonably justifying what they voted for, no idea what will happen, no idea if it matters, no idea how we will get from here to there.
And its very, very important that we know where we're going and how we will get there as soon as possible.
Its very, very frightening that we're relying on this particular bunch of Conservatives to tell us.
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>>So Pat, you think the current government is doing a good job in negotiating BREXIT?<<
Where did I say that?
Why do you assume you know what I'm thinking?
Why do a few of you think just because anyone voted Brexit, it's a licence to be downright rude and disparaging, not to mention belittle anything they say?
You waste no time (Mark+2) in telling me how stupid, ignorant and incapable I am at every opportunity?
You bombard me with personal insults every time I post anything.
Those insults remain in the threads for all to see, and never get removed.
Why would you even be interested in my reasons for voting either way if that is the case?
Why would I ever be bothered to waste my breathe, or my time to tell you?
It's the blind faith that Remainers have that they are right, the only people qualified to have an opinion and capable of seeing the situation from all angles, that caused you to so underestimate the vote and then recoil in shock at the result.
Haven't you learned anything from that?
Calling us names alienated us then, it still alienates us now, but of course you know that.
After all, you are superior to us........or so you would have us believe!
Pat
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Still can't actually tell us your reasons, huh. I'm sure its just because you don't want to, it being your choice n all.
You just say "personal insult" to try and hide your inability to answer the question. YOU are the one who keeps saying you had good reasons. YOU bring the subject up, YOU refuse to answer and then YOU raise the spectre of personal insults to try and hide it.
And you misunderstand, or perhaps ignore, the question. Its nothing to do with being right or wrong, people are trying to work out where we are going. The decision is made, nobody is denying that.
But where are we going? And since your response is to say how much you thought about it and how there were various things you voted for, what were they and will we get them?
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>> >>So Pat, you think the current government is doing a good job in negotiating BREXIT?<<
>> Where did I say that?
You didn't. It was a poorly worded question but it was a question hence the ? at the end.
Do you feel confident that the current government led by May will result in the BREXIT outcome you hope for? Do you think they are doing a good job? Do you think you will get what you want? Do you wonder if at the 11th hour that nothing is going to plan (is there a plan?), that they might decide to stay in the EU after all?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 16 Aug 17 at 14:11
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I don't think that they can?
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>> I don't think that they can?
Politically it would be impossible for Theresa May to backtrack. But without a majority and with plans looking more threadbare by the minute could there, with a disastrous cliff edge Brexit on cards, be a political alignment in Commons that would keep us in EEA/Customs Union?
As pointed out above, while Remain's offer was essentially 'as you were' Leave's was much less clear and had many variations. Some leave campaigners, whether honestly or for fear of frightening the horses', explicitly said we could remain on terms similar to Norway.
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Phrase of the day - smokie
