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Sounds like a lose, lose to me!
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The IEA does not formally disclose their sources of funding but has been criticised by health charities and The Guardian for receiving funds from major tobacco companies whilst campaigning on tobacco related issues.
British American Tobacco confirmed it had donated £40,000 to the institute in 2013 £20,000 in 2012 and £10,000 in 2011 and Philip Morris International and Japan Tobacco International also confirmed they had provided financial support to the IEA.
In 2002 a leaked letter revealed that prominent IEA member Roger Scruton had authored an IEA pamphlet attacking the World Health Organisation's campaign on tobacco whilst consulting for Japan Tobacco International in a personal capacity.
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...and British Sugar to nullify the obesity bit?
You have to admit it, we're saving you money.
Pat
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Except of course you dont pay uk tax on your ciggies.
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It is not all about money Pat.People who die young in their lives due to long cancer often leave families behind.The misery that can cause is enough to offset all your financial gains.
I don't smoke or drink alcohol but have had enough in the past.In hindsight I would never start either again.
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>>It is not all about money Pat.<<
According to many old threads on here it is.
It's about the money smokers and obese people cost the NHS.
It makes a change to get an alternative view.
It applies to all of those with less than perfect bodies too, so they don't have to bear the guilt bestowed upon them by the thin, T-Total, healthy living critics anymore.
Pat
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I don't think a thanks is needed, it's not exactly altruistic is it.
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>> >>It is not all about money Pat.<<
>>
>> According to many old threads on here it is.
>>
>> It's about the money smokers and obese people cost the NHS.
I don't know whether any figures have been produced as to whether smokers are a net benefit to the exchequer or otherwise.
However. I never cease to be amazed at your smugness, Pat, over the fact that are a cigarette smoker and you somehow see it as an act of defiance, a refusal to conform and evidence of your free spirit.
With the information that we now have, I think it is madness.
If you wish to carry on smoking, with all the health risks that are implied, it doesn't affect me, so why should I care?
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>> Except of course you dont pay uk tax on your ciggies.
Nobody does. That's what happens when you tax cigarettes to £10 a pack, and countries just a 40 minute train or plane ride away that people frequently travel freely in and out of for work will sell you them for a fiver.
The taxation policy on tobacco in the UK is counterproductive and nonsensical.
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In the same vein as the thread - Why do Cancer Patients have to pay for their treatment when "Druggies" get Methadone free?
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Also in the same vein as this thread surely the country should be grateful to those who drive large cars and thus contribute huge tax revenues to the NHS etc.
Total nonsense of course
The previous 2 generations of my family were almost universally heavy smokers and I watched a good number of them die way before their time, in some cases having endured the last few years in dreadful health. One in particular waiting for a lung transplant in her late 40s.
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Interesting, but not really surprising, to see who funds the "leading right wing UK think tank" which produced the report, according to this page:
www.tobaccotactics.org/index.php/Institute_of_Economic_Affairs
List includes British American Tobacco, Philip Morris, Imperial Tobacco, Japan Tobacco....
Guess they think it's a good wheeze... :-)
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It is actually Smokie, it's woken that lot up anyway:)
Even Duncan can't recognise TIC!
>>. I never cease to be amazed at your smugness, Pat, over the fact that are a cigarette smoker and you somehow see it as an act of defiance, a refusal to conform and evidence of your free spirit.<<
Most certainly do.
>> With the information that we now have, I think it is madness.<<
That of course, is your right.
>> If you wish to carry on smoking, with all the health risks that are implied, it doesn't affect me, so why should I care? <<
Exactly!
Pat
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What about the obese?
I see no-one has seen fit to tackle that one yet.
Does that mean we're all slim and sylph like?
Perhaps a jump on the scales and a measure of your height would be a surprise when you look at the charts and see just how little you should weigh, so not to be classed as 'obese'.
Pat
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. I never cease to be amazed at your smugness, Pat, over the fact that
>> are a cigarette smoker and you somehow see it as an act of defiance, a
>> refusal to conform and evidence of your free spirit.<<
>>
>> Most certainly do.
Interesting, if not smoking was the defiant, non conformist thing to do would you stop smoking?
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No, of course I wouldn't sooty.
I smoke because I enjoy it.
I'm just a tad above my ideal weight just now because I enjoy eating good food.
It's not about smoking or any individual thing.
I'm very much a libertarian and believe I have the right to do as I wish, and make my own decisions about the basics in life, without being expected to conform to anyone else's ideas of what's right or wrong for me.
I will always rebel against rules if I believe they serve no useful purpose.
But on the other hand I'm not advocating that way for anyone else, I believe we all have the right to choose what's right for us, and if anyone or anything encroaches upon that right, yes, I will rebel.
Pat
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I smoke because I enjoy it.
I think that's first time I've seen you say that. You nearly always frame it as being rebellious.
> I will always rebel against rules if I believe they serve no useful purpose.
Which smoking laws do you think serve no useful purpose? Not ones you just disagree with.
, and if anyone or
>> anything encroaches upon that right, yes, I will rebel.
I wonder if many anti smokers think the same?
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>> Which smoking laws do you think serve no useful purpose? Not ones you just disagree
>> with. <<
It's not really the laws regarding smoking, I don't have a problem with those at all.
It's the 'rules', mainly the unwritten ones.
Making all cigarette packets to look alike so they are not attractive to smokers.
Make something mysterious and it will make youngsters want to try it.
Treating vaping like smoking.
It isn't smoke, it's vapour, and has been said above it has helped many to stop smoking so why try and make it more difficult for others who may want to give up than it has to be?
I don't vape by the way!
Since smoking has become social unacceptable it seems to gave given everyone a licence to be downright rude to smokers...why? I'm still the same person I was 20 years ago.
Allowing smoking outside but not providing ashtrays for us....then grumbling about 'dirty' smokers leaving a mess.
I'm a fully fledged adult, give me the facts and then let me decide what to do about them.
That one applies to Doc's/legal/financial advice too, not just smoking.
I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
>>
>> I wonder if many anti smokers think the same?
>>
I wonder that too, I do hope they do.
I know most libertarians have that attitude. It's a great thing to be able to agree to differ:)
Pat
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"Since smoking has become social unacceptable it seems to gave given everyone a licence to be downright rude to smokers...why? I'm still the same person I was 20 years ago."
I'm no longer a smoker but I haven't noticed this, nor has my smoker daughter. Maybe it's just you?
Or maybe it's that people these days feel empowered to have, then vocalise, an opinion on pretty much everything, even including stuff they don't know much about.
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Well you walked into that one Smokie:)
See my post on your theatre visit....pot and kettle!
It isn't just me at all....it's the regular whinge in any smoking shelter which I suspect you rarely visit.
Pat
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Its not really the laws regarding smoking, I don't have a problem with those at all.
It's the 'rules', mainly the unwritten ones.
>>
>> Making all cigarette packets to look alike so they are not attractive to smokers.
>>
I'm pretty sure that's a law.
>>
>>
>> I wonder that too, I do hope they do.
>>
Perhaps they are the ones rebelling those 20 years ago against the majority smokers? Be careful what you wish for ;)
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I think you're right Zippy, it is law now because the last time I was in Adinkerke in July they had all turned into generic black packets!
...and while I'm at it!
At work they've taken our seat away from the smoking shelter to 'discourage smoking at work'
Words fail me and I have been battling with management all summer to get it back again..I won't give up and I will whittle them down in the end.
Their argument (management) is that you don't have to have a cigarette and you can sit in the canteen if you want to sit down.
Just how short sighted can you get?
We all go to the canteen, get a coffee and take it to the smoking shelter but because there are no seats we have to stand it on the floor while we light a ciggy and it inevitably gets knocked over because there are so many of us crammed into such a small space (vapers have to use it too, words fail me again!)
So, what happens is we have a load of disgruntled smokers who don't get a coffee and when asked to do something a bit above and beyond, just delights in saying no.
No-one does bolshy like a forkie asked to 'just' load one more trailer, before he clocks off!
We have a beautiful bench we all contributed to in memory of Phil who lost his life in the lorry fire a couple of years ago, but they've moved it to an area no-one uses.
....and no-one has the backbone to go an move it back again and it's too heavy for me to do it on my own.
Pat
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>> >>. I never cease to be amazed at your smugness, Pat, over the fact that
>> are a cigarette smoker and you somehow see it as an act of defiance, a
>> refusal to conform and evidence of your free spirit.<<
>>
>> Most certainly do.
>>
>> >> With the information that we now have, I think it is madness.<<
I rest my case.
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What case exactly Duncan?...in your own words why are you worried?
....and why should anyone conform for goodness sake?
Do you want us all lined up like neat little ninepins all dressed the same?
Count me out of that one!
I'm quite happy to go my own way and take the consequences of my own actions.
Pat
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>> In the same vein as the thread - Why do Cancer Patients have to pay
>> for their treatment when "Druggies" get Methadone free?
Because on the whole, cancer patients dont have to pay for their treatment.
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>> Nobody does. That's what happens when you tax cigarettes to £10 a pack, and countries
>> just a 40 minute train or plane ride away that people frequently travel freely in
>> and out of for work will sell you them for a fiver.
Brexit will fix that. Price worth paying and all that.
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I think vaping will make the market for bringing cigs from abroad much smaller. I'd say 80% of the people at work who smoked have switched over.
I wonder how many smokers of tobacco there will be in 5 or 10 years time?
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>> I think vaping will make the market for bringing cigs from abroad much smaller.
I have no idea why people vape, its banned in all the same situations and places that smoking is, plus when you do get to use it, you now look like a knob and are now addicted to different carcinogenic chemicals.
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I have no idea why people vape, its banned in all the same situations and
>> places that smoking is, plus when you do get to use it, you now look
>> like a knob and are now addicted to different carcinogenic chemicals.
Cost i would say, my friends that do say it saves a lot. They tend to vape together so I guess they aren't bothered about the look.
I'm guessing since they weren't bothered about all chemicals in cigs they aren't likely to be bothered by another load of chemicals?
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I went to the theatre in London last night (Coliseum, to see Bat Out Of Hell) and someone was vaping in the middle stalls pretty much throughout the show.
On which note - I used to like it when "going out" (out out, as Mickey Flanagan might say) was a bit special and people dressed up and behaved properly, unlike the lady in the fifth row stalls dressed in pyjama-like leggings and top who decided to spoil the finale for those of us in the few rows behind her by holding her phone high to record it - when there had been clear statements in writing and by announcement prohibiting the use of photography and recording equipment. Eventually the usher sorted her out but it took best part of a minute probably.
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>> dressed in pyjama-like leggings and top who decided to spoil the finale for those of us in the few rows behind her by holding her phone high to record it - when there had been clear statements in writing and by announcement prohibiting the use of photography and recording equipment. Eventually the usher sorted her out but it took best part of a minute probably. <<
Was it what she wore or what she did that annoyed you most Smokie?
Or was it the person vaping?
Whatever happened to live and let live, and not judging others by their dress.....which would have been actually quite fashionable and dressy, despite what it appeared to your rather old fashioned view.
....and I'm quite a bit older than you too:)
Pat
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Where did I say I was annoyed?
I was making a general point, which (actually unintentionally) turned into a specific example just because of two separate and extreme incidents which came to mind as I was writing it. You don't have to nitpick every single post to grandstand to us all, we all know you by now.
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>>You don't have to nitpick every single post to grandstand to us all, we all know you by now. <<
Excuse me?
Care to explain or would you prefer it is I just stopped posting altogether?
Great response from a mod...who walked in to the quagmire entirely by his own efforts.
Point taken.......but if you give it out you have to be prepared to get it back.
I'm not changing for you or anyone else!
Pat
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What exactly did I walk into?
Being a mod here doesn't make me anything special, just someone who can help keep stuff in order in here. I don't think it means that I can't defend myself, and I can't have an opinion.
You put your own spin on something I said which wasn't there or, if it was there, it was clearly unintended.
It just feels to me like you were, and still are, trying to score points, in a grandstanding stylie. :-)
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>>Or maybe it's that people these days feel empowered to have, then vocalise, an opinion on pretty much everything, even including stuff they don't know much about<<
You wrote that and this
>>was a bit special and people dressed up and behaved properly, unlike the lady in the fifth row stalls dressed in pyjama-like leggings and top who decided to spoil the finale for those of us in the few rows behind her by holding her phone high to record it <<
I had already explained her dress what not what you assumed it be 'in your opinion'.
As admin on our forums I have to be very restrained in what I post and how, or if, I admonish anyone.
For me it is a pleasure to come to another forum and feel free to explain myself without those restrictions...just as Zippy has allowed me to do today.
I would never dare to come out with the sort of remark you did, we would have no forum posters left.
It dawned on me a long time ago that being an admin, or mod, means having no public opinions whatsoever and I had to either accept that or give it up.
Pat
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Well it's good to see someone has an opinion but not enough backbone to stand up and put it into words!
What is it with men who won't put a name to their secret frownies and be prepared to explain the reason for them?
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Tue 8 Aug 17 at 16:23
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I know who it is now:)
It always pays to change your tactics now and again!
Pat
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Nothing new in the topic - pretty sure I've been making the same comment for years on this forum and decades elsewhere.
Smoker/drinkers/drivers/gamblers pay much more for their habits than the state has to pay to bail them out.
Scots deserve the slightly beneficial terms of the Barnett formula since they have the good grace to die a year earlier and take less pension from the UK pot than their English counterparts.
etc etc
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Yet still no-one has wanted to discuss the obesity angle despite the obese getting slated equally as much as smokers and drinkers.
Should we all be joining the Fat Club for next week?
Pat
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I do agree that fat people and smokers seem to be the last groups in society that it is socially acceptable to marginalise, discriminate against and generally be unpleasant towards.
Although I predict that internal combustion powered car owners will also get a taste of it in the next 20 years.
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I'm not sure overweight an obese people are particularly discriminated against are they? In what way are marginalised? With the majority of adults now being overweight it is surely the duty of the government to educate and advise on the severe effects obesity will have on their health.
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Advise, yes.
For the general public to ridicule and abuse/assume, no.
To analyse what they are eating or buying, no.
Are they getting enough exercise, no.
All of the above have been seen on this forum.
Pat
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Ridiculing or abusing fat people is one thing, discussing the modern epidemic of obesity, iits causes and how it can ne addressed is another. The big danger is the normalisation of obesity, the idea that being several stone or more overweight is somehow perfectly normal an won't have severe effects on your health is another. That is the message that the NHS are trying to get across. Of course a lot of overweight people don't like to hear it.
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me me me, whine whine whine.
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>>Yet still no-one has wanted to discuss the obesity angle despite the obese getting slated equally as much as smokers and drinkers.
What do you want to discuss?
The slating? (by whom exactly - examples would be helpful)
The condition? (what part of it? - it's a broad church pardon the pun)
How does government deal with it? (sugary drink tax seems about as far as they want to go)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity
re the smoking paying for itself agenda - it certainly does, but I can't help thinking the billions of quids of tobacco being burned could be put to more productive use economically.
Would probably just push up house prices if the average person had more spending cash as a result of the 25% or so of the population who smoked stopping overnight though!
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 8 Aug 17 at 17:11
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>>What do you want to discuss?
The slating? (by whom exactly - examples would be helpful)<<
There are enough examples in the history of this forum without me trawling through for them where those who are not the 'ideal' weight have been embarrassed enough to slink away quietly and hope no-one notices.
I would like to see those people hold their heads up high in the knowledge that not everyone who isn't a 'perfect10' (sorry for the female acronym but it fits) and realise they don't have to actually apologise to society in general for eating that last bit of roast beef with the fat still on it.
Some people have no wish to be perfect, or in fact want to be shamed into being perfect.
I spent a lot of time some years ago battling with being very overweight then swinging to be very underweight when medication wasn't working to get my thyroid under control.
God forbid I was seen at the supermarket checkout with anything fattening in my trolley and the overheard remarks had me thoroughly ashamed of myself even though it was not under my control.
We judge people far too easily these days, as we did then, and categorise them with not a thought.
Not a thought of how it hurts, or affects them.
Fat people are not a curse or a drain on society, they are a boon as they die younger.
Apart from the practicalities they are usually the most caring, sensitive and lovely people around.
>>but I can't help thinking the billions of quids of tobacco being burned could be put to more productive use economically.<<
Likewise the duty on alcohol. but that's acceptable...and long may it remain so.
Pay
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So, no actual examples then?
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Who do you two think you are ?
Starsky and Hutch...grow up and get a life.
Neither of you has the looks so give it up as a bad job, children.
Pat
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What a deeply unpleasant person you are.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 8 Aug 17 at 18:35
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It takes one to recognise one.
I give back exactly what I get.
Deal with it.
Pat
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I'm a bit late to this thread, but when I smoked the tax revenue from tobacco and tobacco related industries was more than ten times the cost of the NHS.
I wonder what it is now?
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For the year 2015/6 the total revenud from duty and VAT on tobacco products was £12 billion.
Theh cost of running the NHS for the same period was £116 billion
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An interesting paper on the true cost to the Government of obesity. This paper takes into account the saving to the Government by premature deaths of obese and overwight people.
The conclusion is that whilst there is a cost to the government - around £2.5 Billion the cost is nowhere as high as has been claimed although there is of course considerable cost to the individuals and their families.
iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Obesity-and-the-Public-Purse-PDF.pdf
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 8 Aug 17 at 21:00
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Obesity in many cases is an eating disorder not far from bulimia and anorexia, where deeply unhappy people full of self-loathing fall into a repetitive loop of behaviours that are self-harming and self-fulfilling, and hate themselves for their actions.
In other cases people are just gluttonous hogs who feel good in enjoying the fruits of their labours and although may pay lip service to 'losing weight' have no desire to actually do anything about it, and ultimately don't really care.
Most substance misuse fits into these categories I guess :-)
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>> Obesity in many cases is an eating disorder not far from bulimia and anorexia, where
>> deeply unhappy people full of self-loathing fall into a repetitive loop of behaviours that are
>> self-harming and self-fulfilling, and hate themselves for their actions.
A message I've banged out again and again here in response to the usual carp about self control etc. Nice to see a professional endorsement for the 'it's a bit more complex' POV.
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>> A message I've banged out again and again here in response to the usual carp
>> about self control etc. Nice to see a professional endorsement for the 'it's a bit
>> more complex' POV.
Selective quoting? Because whilst he did indeed say that, he also spoke of the other case. Many times it is *absolutely* a matter of self control.
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Thanks to smokers, drinkers and the obese - Duncan
