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Continuing discussion
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 15 Jun 17 at 10:35
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The Book of Jeremy from The New Yorker:
www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn
Do not read while drinking tea in proximity to your keyboard.
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Well, that certainly made a gloomy Sunday morning a lot more joyful.
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I note that George Osborne is now the chief cheerleader for May's demise.
Wouldn't have anything to do with boosting his newspaper's circulation amongst his newfound "friends" in the People's Republic of Greater London would it, or am I merely being cynical?
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>> Wouldn't have anything to do with boosting his newspaper's circulation amongst his newfound "friends" in
>> the People's Republic of Greater London would it, or am I merely being cynical?
More about political revenge I think.
The Standard has always had to navigate between the Scylla of it's proprietor's politics and Charybdis of it's readership. More successful under some editors then others.
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The Standard has always had to navigate between the Scylla of it's proprietor's politics and
>> Charybdis of it's readership. More successful under some editors then others.
>>
www.britannica.com/topic/Scylla-and-Charybdis
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>> The Standard has always had to navigate between the Scylla of it's proprietor's politics and
>> Charybdis of it's readership. More successful under some editors then others.
>>
I admire and respect your ability to refer to Scylla and Charybdis with apparent ease, and at the same time I fail to comprehend your inability to distinguish between the use of 'its' and 'it's'.
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I admire and respect your ability to refer to Scylla and Charybdis with apparent ease....
That rather depends on whether one is seeking to communicate or to impress.
Using obscure or unusual references is rarely an effective means of communication; its frequently, perhaps usually, an effort to impress, often oneself.
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>> Using obscure or unusual references is rarely an effective means of communication; its frequently, perhaps
>> usually, an effort to impress, often oneself.
>>
Try "between a rock and a hard place" then. Geddit?
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>> Using obscure or unusual references is rarely an effective means of communication; its frequently, perhaps
>> usually, an effort to impress, often oneself.
>>
....whereas, criticism by an ostensibly "educated" individual of such erudite practice might frequently, perhaps usually, be taken as the sign of being a knob.
(and obscure? ffs The Police used the reference in a single...,)
;-)
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Oh definitely.
And The Police? Pleas, like I was ever coherent enough to listen to the words at that time.
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Pleas, like I was ever coherent enough to listen to the words
>> at that time.
>>
Plus ça change......
;-)
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>> Using obscure or unusual references is rarely an effective means of communication; its frequently, perhaps
>> usually, an effort to impress, often oneself.
Err no
Over my career I had several postings in offices, including the final eleven years, with Public School/Oxbridge types who used classical and historical allusions in their normal speech - professional or social. One had to keep up so you made sure you understood and ended up doing the same. I do of course take care with plain English in my present job but sometimes inadvertently slip things into normal conversation.
Thinking about it 'pour encourager les autres'* was a phrase my Father used.
If I'd thought about it this morning rock/hard place would be better.
*everything2.com/title/Pour+encourager+les+autres
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 11 Jun 17 at 16:54
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So just bad communication skills then?
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>> So just bad communication skills then?
Whatever.
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I only put the link up to save others looking up what it meant. I honestly didn't have a clue what it meant.
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More like antipathy to May's lukewarm support bordering on disloyalty for the Cameron government and her instant conversion from supporting Remain to a fervent Leave enthusiast.
Much the same reasons for my dislike of her.
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>> More like antipathy to May's lukewarm support bordering on disloyalty for the Cameron government and
>> her instant conversion from supporting Remain to a fervent Leave enthusiast.
>>
She wasn't alone in that conversion; viewed from another angle one could say that she has taken the path of accepting the will of the majority vote, but pragmatists can never win with British voters.
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Blair's been very quiet in recent days hasn't he? Maybe too busy doing after-dinner speeches.
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No you are right. On the whole the electorate tend to prefer politicians who stick to their principles and don't change their views in accordance with whichever way the political wind is blowing.
I'm one of them.
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>> No you are right. On the whole the electorate tend to prefer politicians who stick
>> to their principles and don't change their views in accordance with whichever way the political
>> wind is blowing.
Until it starts to hit them in the pocket. Voters, when all's said and done, are no less mercenary than politicians.
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Not everyone one including politicians are motivated soley by greed. It a pretty depressing picture of mankind that you have.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 11 Jun 17 at 15:22
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I think very few, if any, politicians are motivated by greed. They are typically, I think, motivated by a belief that they are right and a desire to be a politician. And perhaps for power.
It makes them quite difficult to judge at times.
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>> Not everyone one including politicians are motivated soley by greed. It a pretty depressing picture
>> of mankind that you have.
>>
I prefer to use the term "realistic". We all have aspirations as to what we think will make our country better, but few are actually triggered by a desire to make ourselves worse off on a personal basis. It's basic human nature.
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>> > but few are actually triggered by a desire to
>> make ourselves worse off on a personal basis. It's basic human nature.
>>
It's only comparatively recently that MPs were paid at all. It used to cost a considerable amount of money to fund all election expenses personally, and a house in London. It was the first question asked by selection committees of aspiring candidates.
Whatever motivated Disraeli, Gladstone, etc can't have been greed.
Even Lloyd George didn't find a way of milking the system until he was already well established in power, and he surely can't have already planned how one day to flog peerages when he was only a junior MP?
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>> It's only comparatively recently that MPs were paid at all.
Indeed. Labour members in the modern age would do well to remember that it was a Conservative motion in the 1950's which increased their salary substantially to relieve them of living in penury whilst in London. Bill Deedes makes mention of it in his memoir.
That haaving been said, I've noted the increase of nearly 50% over the lifetime of the Blair government; coupled with the fact that they were forced to allow the creation of IPSA to forestall justifiable accusations that they were simply setting their own salaries. Not that it seems to have done a lot of good.
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Gove is back - threre might be hope for Brexit, yet.
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>> Gove is back - threre might be hope for Brexit, yet.
May's lack of judgement shows again.
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>> Just so we are clear on the DUP, here are some quotes:
>>
>> www.indy100.com/article/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-alliance-minority-government-quotes-arlene-foster-lgbt-abortion-religion-7783241
And that is the very worse they can dig up? mostly stuff from 12 years ago?
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>> >> Just so we are clear on the DUP, here are some quotes:
>> >>
>> >> www.indy100.com/article/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-alliance-minority-government-quotes-arlene-foster-lgbt-abortion-religion-7783241
>>
>> And that is the very worse they can dig up? mostly stuff from 12 years
>> ago?
>>
Not my own words, (copied from a Facebook post) to be fair, but it's a point of view.
I must make it clear that I have not checked the accuracy of the numbers quoted, so E.& OE.
I've edited it to remove some swear-filter stuff.
The Conservative 'alliance' with the DUP is both unfortunate and, to an extent, hypocritical. I am unhappy about it. Let me be clear.
However... I'm equally fed up with snowflakes, progressives, libtards and socialists squealing with glee that the Tory / DUP alliance should be banned. Or that such an alliance somehow equates to Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnel's past terrorist associations. Those people were cavorting with signed up, active terrorists way before Sinn Fein joined the peace process. There is a massive blooming difference and frankly, if you can't see it, you're too stupid to be waxing lyrical here.
38 years of Bombings, shootings, Executions and Terrorist activity. Unless you know the facts of the conflict in NI and lived through it - you know nothing l about living in Terror.
Here's some facts to ponder when signing your pathetic excuse of a Petition to get s legal coalition nullified:
1. The Provisional IRA were responsible for 91% of ALL Terrorist activity between 1969 - 2017
2. The Royal Ulster Constabulary GC were disbanded as a Sinn Fein Demand despite being responsible for only 56 deaths during the entire period of the conflict
3. The IRA were responsible for killing 1907 people during the conflict period (more than 61% of the total number killed)
4. The IRA Killed more Catholic Civilians than every other Combatant Group (Police/Army/Loyalist Paramilitaries) combined
5. Martin McGuinness served 6 months in an Irish Prison in 1976 for IRA membership and weapons charges and said when sentenced 'I am a member or Oglaigh na h'Eirann (Army of Ireland) and am very proud"
6 As Commander of the IRA in Londonderry, Martin McGuinness was responsible for :-
firebombing 80% of all the businesses in the City Centre between 1969 - 1974,
Carrying out the Claudy Massacre killing 9 innocent Men, Women and Children
Murdering 267 people during the time he admitted to being the Commander of Derry Brigade PIRA
Was implicated in the IRA murder of Frank Hegarty whom he lured back to Derry after being outed as a 'Tout' (Informer)
7. The IRA carried out the Northern Bank Robbery in Belfast and got away with £26.3 Million whilst supposed to be on Ceasefire.
8. 17 of Sinn Fein's current 30 MLA'S have convictions for murder and/or violent Terrorist Activity.
9. Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams has been implicated as being responsible for the Disappearance and Murder of Belfast Woman Jean McConville whose crime was to give comfort to a dying Soldier who had just been shot by an IRA sniper
10. The Labour Party have invited Sinn Fein to their Annual Party Conference every year since 1983.
11. The Scottish Nationalist Party talked of replicating the provos 'Armed Struggle' and contemplated beginning terrorist acts in Scotland to achieve independence from the UK
12. Former SNP Leader Alex Salmond set up the '79 Group' within the SNP and pushed to an armed campaign to be started and demanded that the SNP and Sinn Fein co-ordinate terrorist activity until the group was banned by the SNP and Salmond thrown out of the SNP in 1982. He was welcomed back into the SNP in 1985 and as leader forged links between Scottish and Irish Nationalist Groups such as the James Connolly movement.
13. The IRA to date have carried out over 20 thousand 'Kneecappings' and other forms of punishment shootings with 97% of those injured being from their own Community.
14. The majority of people born and living in Northern Ireland today have at least one family member or neighbour who was killed/injured/attacked by terrorists during the conflict
15 when Jeremy Corbyn came to visit NI he always stood on a platform with IRA murderers and no one else. He was NOT a Peacemaker - he was a Sympathiser of the IRA and promoted their ideology and actions along with those of Spanish separatists ETA, Palestinian Terrorists Hamas and Colombian guerrillas FARC.
16. Corbyn and Diane Abbott along with other prominent Labour MP'S along with Trade Union leaders were prominent members of the Troops Out movement which supported the IRA campaign and demanded British Troops be withdrawn from this part of the UK. They also called the RUC "Babykillers" and accused the Army of cold blooded murder.
So the next time you snowflakes whinge on about the DUP - I suggest you learn some facts first and understand just who you are supporting.
Last edited by: Roger. on Mon 12 Jun 17 at 11:03
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>> Not my own words, (copied from a Facebook post) to be fair, but it's a
>> point of view.
Was going to say tl:dr but in the end I did. Starts with a few things which might just be factual and descends into lies and innuendo.
The 79 group was never anything more than a left wing breakaway from a Scottish National Party that still had echoes of being 'tartan tories'.
The RUC, with or without its GC, was historically overwhelmingly Loyalist/Protestant. Without reform and renaming it could never gain the confidence of the Nationalist/Catholic Community.
I could carry on but it's all just whataboutery. It also confirms the nature of the distasteful company you keep.
Whatever their past links with terrorism all the mainstream parties in NI are now signed up to peace and democratic politics. The Conservatives and there allies devoted huge energy in the election to attacking Corbyn on basis that, at very least, he had fraternised with people linked to terror. To then leap into bed with a party that has previous links to terror and the arm of Loyalism who's loyalty is conditional on the UK bearing to its will (Paisley evoking the memory of Edward Carson*) looks like hypocrisy.
And 'snowflakes who whinge about the DUP' are in no way supporting the few truths in your 16 point diatribe.
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Carson
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>> descends into lies and innuendo.
It was posted by Woger, I could have told you that without reading it.
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Sorry, you lost me at the word 'snowflake'. Yawn....
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>> Gove is back - threre might be hope for Brexit, yet.
Gove? The man is a moron. More to the point he is a throughly two faced sneaky untrustworthy moron.
How much more crap do you wish to inflict on us just to satisfy your ignorant and ill informed prejudices?
Still at least everything you touch or wish for seems to blow up in your face, so there is hope for the rest of us yet.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jun 17 at 10:37
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Really don't know why there is all this talk about the Tories and the DUP.
Corbyn would not stand a chance at forming an alliance without the DUP (322 max without DUP 332 with them) and if they were willing to be part of it do you think he would say "no thanks DUP" and turn down the chance of being PM ...
... like heck he would!
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>> Really don't know why there is all this talk about the Tories and the DUP.
The argument seems to be that as Britain and Ireland are neutral co-backers of the Friday Agreement, that neutrality could be compromised if our government came to any separate agreement with one of the parties involved, ie the DUP.
But that doesn't appear to preclude Sinn Fein, the other party, nor the Irish government, from having links with anyone they like.
The other stumbling block appears to be that Sinn Fein wish to retain the right to accept political donations from foreign countries. Again, that doesn't seem to work both ways - imagine the furore if the Conservatives accepted funding from Trump, for example.
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>> The argument seems to be >>
Agreed, my point is don't criticise the Tories for talking to the DUP as Labour would also take a deal if offered.
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>> But that doesn't appear to preclude Sinn Fein, the other party, nor the Irish government,
>> from having links with anyone they like.
Sinn Fein are a political party and one of the protagonists in Northern Ireland's devolved government on a par with DUP etc. Within the confines of the law and the views of their electorate they can have whatever links they wish.
What links of the Irish Government do you have in mind?
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Not totally unrelated to the rehabilitation of offenders, how long does an organisation, or a country for that matter, have to go before it is no longer accountable for its past?
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In UK context then I think there should be accountability for anything that directly affected people still alive today. So that means actions in former colonies like atrocities against Mau Mau suspects and at home with events like b***** Sunday or Hillsborough. Same principle with medical scandals like Thalidomide and blood borne diseases spread by infected transfusions.
I'd also add brutality in children's homes and in care of orphans and adoptees. Same principle whether by the state itself or those churches, charities etc via which it discharged (or absolved itself of) its responsibilities.
Further back colonisation, slavery and such like? Nothing wrong with formal acknowledgement of regret but generally without recompense.
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From a devil's advocate point of view; Argentina, Germany?
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"From a devil's advocate point of view; Argentina, Germany?"
Once you resume playing football with them again, then it's all sorted ;-)
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>> From a devil's advocate point of view; Argentina, Germany?
Argentina? Nope, they are still posturing and agitating about Las Malvinas.
Germany? Yes they are contrite. (tho some Brits are still posturing and agitating)
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Ok, Argentina is still posturing.
But what about individual Argentinians?
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>> Ok, Argentina is still posturing.
>>
>> But what about individual Argentinians?
What about them, Who cares? Personally I think the poor argie persons have been rogered about by their appalling governments, but i don't know any, we don't have large enclaves of them over here, they are not mowing us down on bridges or blowing us up, so I don't suppose anyone gives them a second thought.
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Possibilities are
[1] Conservative + DUP
[2] Labour + SNP + Lib Dem etc.
For me [2] seems far more chaotic than [1]
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>> Possibilities are
>>
>> [1] Conservative + DUP
>>
>> [2] Labour + SNP + Lib Dem etc.
>>
>> For me [2] seems far more chaotic than [1]
>>
Agrees though mathematics are also a factor:
[1] Conservative + DUP = 328
[2] Labour + SNP + Lib Dem etc = 322
[3] Labour + SNP + Lib Dem + DUP etc = 332
[4] Conservative + Lib Dem = 330
Though [3] is a no go as the DUP wouldn't prop up Labour. I would favour [4] ...
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[4] is not workable as Lib Dem does not want Brexit.
Don't think Labour does either.
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>> [4] is not workable as Lib Dem does not want Brexit.
>>
I voted remain though the country voted leave so let's get on and leave. Unlike Nicola Sturgeon I don't believe in asking the same question time and time again until I get the answer I want.
If the Lib Dems took my position then they could be on the inside and help negotiate a good deal for the UK.
Also I rather think the last coalition worked well though Tim Farron is no Nick Clegg and TBH Theresa May is no David Cameron, it's one of my big regrets that the latter stood down and is now out of politics. It's a great shame that DC didn't also say "OK, I voted remain though the country voted leave so let's get on and leave" ...
>> Don't think Labour does either.
>>
They say they are committed to Brexit, though the say lots of things, most of which would be beyond them to deliver.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Mon 12 Jun 17 at 12:23
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They should get Nick Clegg in to help manage the negotiations now that his diary is empty, at least he has clue what it's about.
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>> They should get Nick Clegg in to help manage the negotiations now that his diary
>> is empty, at least he has clue what it's about.
>>
For once I agree with you totally, it would seen to be an inclusive approach, perhaps also involve someone like David Milli or Tristram Hunt.
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Maybe my local, John Redwood, should get promotion. He was a Leave voter, and has may years of Parliamentary experience.
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>> Maybe my local, John Redwood, should get promotion. He was a Leave voter, and has
>> may years of Parliamentary experience
Irony I assume. He's the original swivel eyed loon.
Redwood was SoS for Wales under John Major from 93-95, a time when there were no Welsh Conservatives to do the job. Aside from absurdly miming the Welsh National Anthem he didn't cover himself with glory and unnecessarily upset various groups witihn the Principality.
He was also of the Maastricht rebel 'illegitimates' who were a pain in John Major's backside and stood against Major when latter said back me or sack me. So not a man with a record for loyalty.
He's also got zero media ability.
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>> Irony I assume. He's the original swivel eyed loon.
>>
The chap might just have changed a little in the last 22 years, I think we probably all have.
He has also been a constituency MP for an extra 22 years since then so somebody must like him.
Having said that he hasn't made much impact since either :-)
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I wasn't being too serious but he did once take part in a leadership contest IIRC. Also I met him once at a small function years ago when he was some sort of EEC responsibility (along with Tristram Garel Jones) so he has some reasonably broad experience, unlike some of the others who would put themselves forward.
He is a bit short on media charm though :-)
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>> t's a great shame that DC didn't also say "OK, I voted remain though the country voted leave so let's get on and leave
Because he took sides instead of being neutral. At least TM publicly did not support any side.
In thoery, politicans and civil servants should just following wish of the public rather than trying to influence/do what they want for themselves.
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Yes she did. She endorsed the Government line which was "Remain". Overnight she flipped to "Leave".
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>> In theory, politicans and civil servants should just following wish of the public rather than
>> trying to influence/do what they want for themselves.
Not really. Civil servants should be helping to put Parliament's decisions into practice. Politicians need to have a vision and some policies to put before the public at election time.
Once elected, they are representatives, not delegates.
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>>
>> >> In theory, politicans and civil servants should just following wish of the public rather
>> than trying to influence/do what they want for themselves.
>>
>> Not really. Civil servants should be helping to put Parliament's decisions into practice. Politicians need
>> to have a vision and some policies to put before the public at election time.
>>
>> Once elected, they are representatives, not delegates.
>>
Indeed, they should be implementing the policies upon which they were elected AND implementing the results of any referenda ...
I strongly think that another election now or any time soon would be divisive, I am also thinking that perhaps TM should resign and the Tories should bring in a PM with the brief of being inclusive, involving people from all side in the major issues of the day, specifically Brexit, as I say perhaps Nick Clegg, David M and maybe David C in as he is surely very well respected.
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"Indeed, they should be implementing the policies upon which they were elected AND implementing the results of any referenda ..."
So how would you square the fact that Theresa May was elected on a Remain ticket and the referendum was for Leave?
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>>
>> So how would you square the fact that Theresa May was elected on a Remain
>> ticket and the referendum was for Leave?
>>
You can't. Referendums are a new innovation here and are irreconcilable with our traditional form of democracy. There is no mechanism for integrating the two, and if a referendum result is supposed to have any more significance than just an interesting and advisory opinion poll, then it is inevitable that politicians have sometimes to ditch all their beliefs and manifestos and jump to the new whim of the electorate.
No one worked out what was supposed to happen, everyone simply jumped up and down with excitement and clamoured for a referendum. Perhaps they have learned a lesson from recent events.
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>> [4] is not workable as Lib Dem does not want Brexit
They didn't want tuition fees either.
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When you are doing your sums for possible coalitions or "confidence agreements", it's worth remembering that TM had a majority before the election, and what she actually needed more MPs for was to manage the awkward squad in her own party.
Presumably most of those are still there. In addition (actually in substitution for some of those who lost their seats), there is now a total of 13 Scottish Conservative MPs led by Ruth Davidson which is 3 more than the 10 flat-earthers that TM is relying on.
Whilst Davidson has ruled out a breakaway party and has expressed support for TM, she is also opposed to a hard Brexit (and is presumably no fan of the DUP either).
With the Scots, the DUP, and her own unruly backbenchers to mollify she will never get the manifesto through as a Queen's Speech (which, incidentally, has been delayed indefinitely).
Conservative ministers all fully support TM and will continue to do so until they find a replacement, a project that the men in grey suits are urgently working on.
Fair play, she did warn that voting Labour could lead to a Coalition of Chaos.
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>> 401 votes would have swung it for Theresa. Just four hundred and one!!
>>
Don't start you will be getting as bad as Bromp :-)
They didn't and it didn't happen, move on.
In response to the earlier poster TM looked for a bigger majority to be able to ignore her own rebellious members, as we know she F**ed up and didn't get it.
What she or her replacement, has to do now is alter the negotiations enough to carry the whole party and the DUP
On the other hand, if it comes to it how many tory MPs want another election in the near future.
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>>
>> On the other hand, if it comes to it how many tory MPs want another
>> election in the near future.
>>
I don't think anyone wants another election, apart from Jeremy Corbyn, and even he risks his support having peaked.
Not the Tories, not the Lib-Dems, not DUP, not SNP, and certainly not the British public. It's a dangerous tactic annoying the public because politicians can't manage to get their act together and just get on with something that the majority have already voted for.
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>> I don't think anyone wants another election, apart from Jeremy Corbyn, and even he risks
>> his support having peaked.
>> Not the Tories, not the Lib-Dems, not DUP, not SNP, and certainly not the British
>> public. It's a dangerous tactic annoying the public because politicians can't manage to get their act together and just get on with something that the majority have already voted for.
>>
I agree totally, re Corbyn, I think Labour will soon stop lauding him and realise that they may have won with someone remotely sensible at the helm, i.e. he was the reason the DID'NT win not the reason they did better than expected.
However I do think it is a time for inclusive politics for the Tories to engage more with the other parties in the national interest.
And I am wondering whether that might work better if the Tory leader was untainted, if TM stood down and let someone else try to unite the country, Boris, Liam Fox, I really Like Greg Clark though whether he has any leadership aspirations who knows ...
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>> 401 votes would have swung it for Theresa. Just four hundred and one!!
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/10-surprising-facts-2017-general-election/
>>
Funny, who am I to doubt the Telegraph though I did the sums and made it 1706 votes in the seats they lost - 11 votes in Kensington, 25 votes in Crewe & Nantwich, 94 votes in Canterbury, 125 votes in Keighley, 304 votes in Peterborough, 344 in Stroud, 395 in Bedford and 408 votes in Oxford West & Abingdon - though the Telegraph has looked at the smallest majorities in all seats.
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Certainly don't want Clegg back. Farage would be much better.
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>> Certainly don't want Clegg back. Farage would be much better.
>>
You've got to be kidding ...
Tory gov negotiating Brexit with input from DC, Clegg and perhaps a decent ex Labour PM, like Jack Straw or D Milli ...
Inclusive politics is what we need right now, not divisive ...
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Cameron is a busted flush. He might just have redeemed himself if he had at least offered to own the result of the referendum he called.
He's better at actually talking to people than TM, I suppose that's a start.
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>>Tory gov negotiating Brexit with input from DC, Clegg and perhaps a decent ex Labour PM, like Jack Straw or D Milli
Politically toxic and completely unworkable.
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>>Farage would be much better.
You do realise that would be the real Nigel not the pint in hand bar room raconteur?
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Anyone answer the following question?
Prisoners are not entitled to a vote, as we all know. But what about those who are out on licence after serving a proportion of their sentences and also lifers who have been paroled, do they get a vote?
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Without reading into it I think the decider is address. If you're at an 'establishment' no. If you're out and at home you can vote. Might be a grey area for those released and tagged short of serving half sentence.
I'd be horrified if paroled lifers like Guardian writer Eric Allison were disenfranchised.
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"I'd be horrified if paroled lifers like Guardian writer Eric Allison were disenfranchised. "
Does writing for the Grauniad make him more worthy than other thieves?
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>> I'd be horrified if paroled lifers like Guardian writer Eric Allison were disenfranchised.
>
Irrespective of the crime, just as long as you approved of his job?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 12 Jun 17 at 21:54
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I believe the only thing stopping prisoners voting is the inability to get to the polling station. Providing they are on the electoral roll then they can vote. Presumably the longer they are detained at Her Majesty's pleasure then they may fall off the electoral roll. It may be that the person completing the roll may enter them with a view to them coming out.
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>> Irrespective of the crime, just as long as you approved of his job?
Named the wrong Guardian prison corespondent. Allison was a thief, the lifer is Erwin James:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_James
My point being that (irrespective of their employment or politics) people like this are rehabilitated and should have same civic rights as rest of us.
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>>My point being that (irrespective of their employment or politics) people like this are rehabilitated and should have same civic rights as rest of us.
>>
Agreed, where I take issue is when an employer, in this case The Guardian, may employ someone because of their criminal past or notoriety, may give them a job in front of someone else who is just as suitable and also perfectly law abiding.
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>> Agreed, where I take issue is when an employer, in this case The Guardian, may
>> employ someone because of their criminal past or notoriety, may give them a job in
>> front of someone else who is just as suitable and also perfectly law abiding.
Both are articulate and informed writers with 'inside' information. Taking your 'someone else law abiding' argument to its logical conclusion would stymie any rehabilitation.
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>> Taking your 'someone else law abiding' argument to its logical conclusion would stymie any rehabilitation.
>>
No, it would be an "everything else being equal" situation.
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>> No, it would be an "everything else being equal" situation.
>>
If you want a columnist to write about prisons someone who has been in prison seems reasonable to me.
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>> No, it would be an "everything else being equal" situation.
My point remains. Rehabilitation requires opportunity which organisations like Timpsons and Virgin Trains recognise.
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What is their to write about prisons? In some parts of the world they are hell holes other parts holiday camps.
A vicious murderer as this bloke was described by the judge won't enlighten me.Yes upbringing as a child can affect a person behaviour.We don't pick our parents and the way they treat us unfortunately.Once the damage is done it is very difficult to straighten this out.
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It's not of particular interest to me, but for those that are it might be interesting.
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>> What is their to write about prisons? In some parts of the world they are
>> hell holes other parts holiday camps.
>>
>>
>>
In which countries are prisons holiday camps?
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"Both are articulate and informed writers with 'inside' information."
And totally without bias?
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>>
>> And totally without bias?
>>
No they're journalists after all ...
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>> And totally without bias?
What do you mean by bias?
Erwin James started his 'A Life Inside' column in the Guardian while still a prisoner. It was simply an account of prison life from perspective of a lifer approaching the time when he could be paroled. IIRC it was initially pseudonymous and although he was paid the money went to a Prisoners Advice Charity.
No attempt to excuse his crime. Just a well written and informative account.
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"What do you mean by bias? "
I mean, were his views of the establishment coloured by the fact that he had come up against the establishment and was now being deprived of his freedom?
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>> I mean, were his views of the establishment coloured by the fact that he had
>> come up against the establishment and was now being deprived of his freedom?
You have to decide that as a reader. Does it sound coloured and if so to what extent? Is his account consistent with other sources.
Here is Allison's retrospective on Strangeway's riot in 1990:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/25/strangeways-1990-prison-riot-inhumane-conditions
Much of what he says was covered, in more measured language, by Lord Woolf's report into the riot.
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>> My point being that (irrespective of their employment or politics) people like this are rehabilitated
>> and should have same civic rights as rest of us.
Ah my mistake, wrong end, wrong stick. Sorry.
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>> Ah my mistake, wrong end, wrong stick. Sorry.
My green thumb for somebody admitting a mistake instead of pressing on (and on) for last word.
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Health issue is reportedly type 2 diabetes that, in the scrum of the campaign, she failed to keep under control.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/13/diane-abbott-reveals-illness-and-hits-out-at-vicious-tory-campaign
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 22:28
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"Health issue is reportedly type 2 diabetes"
But I didn't change my my opinion of D Abbott over some recently messed up figures - I've loathed the woman for years.
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>> Health issue is reportedly type 2 diabetes that, in the scrum of the campaign, she failed to keep under control.
I don't think that rings true, but even if it were, does that mean that if she were ever in power we'd have to substitute her every time life got stressful?
Neither;
1) I'm incompetent
nor
2) I cannot be relied upon to look after my own health conditions
Translate very well into "can be trusted to take part in running the country"
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Jun 17 at 23:44
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Theresa May suffers from proper diabetes (type 1) but manages to remain strong, and um, stable.
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Medication will not cure or manage the fact she has been promoted beyond her level of capability.
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>> Theresa May suffers from proper diabetes (type 1) but manages to remain strong, and um,
>> stable.
Rather than playing diabetes Top Trumps lets look at some facts:
www.diabetes.co.uk/type2-diabetes.html
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Type 2 Diabetes is not really a disease as such. Its underlying cause is obesity which in turn is a symptom of self control and self awareness on the eating front..
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>> Type 2 Diabetes is not really a disease as such. Its underlying cause is obesity
>> which in turn is a symptom of self control and self awareness on the eating
>> front..
Being overweight is one propentiating factor. Another is Afro-Caribbean descent.
It can also be insidious.
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Being overweight or obese i the major cause. Your genetic make up can increase your propensity to develop the condition.
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>> Type 2 Diabetes is not really a disease as such. Its underlying cause is obesity
>> which in turn is a symptom of self control and self awareness on the eating
>> front..
>>
Oh really? Mine was caused by a gall stone wrecking my pancreas requiring major abdominal surgery to save my life, I am 6' tall and 12 stone, and eat fresh non processed food in moderation.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 08:53
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I thought london caused it?
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Unfortunately I will be driving through your patch next week, you (and I) will be pleased to hear that I will only be in that filthy polluted dump for a few days.
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>> Unfortunately I will be driving through your patch next week, you (and I) will be
>> pleased to hear that I will only be in that filthy polluted dump for a
>> few days.
>>
I am pleased to think you'll take something nasty home with you tho.
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>> I am pleased to think you'll take something nasty home with you tho.
>>
:-)
The main problem is the traffic congestion means it takes too long to get out of London. I am used to cruising on the speed limit (ish) on clear roads. I will be coming in from the West country on the M3, M25, and Kingston bypass.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 14:37
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>> I am used to cruising on the speed limit (ish) on clear roads.
>>
That's far more to do with living in the country than anything to do with Scotland
I have driven in and around Glasgow and Edinburgh along with many large lowland towns in Scotland over the years and they are every bit as bad as any large city south of the border.
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>> I have driven in and around Glasgow and Edinburgh along with many large lowland towns
>> in Scotland over the years and they are every bit as bad as any large
>> city south of the border.
>>
I live in the Forth/Clyde valley. Being retired I can choose when to travel and don't do busy times. :-)
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>> Oh really? Mine was caused by a gall stone wrecking my pancreas requiring major abdominal
>> surgery to save my life, I am 6' tall and 12 stone, and eat fresh
>> non processed food in moderation.
>>
You are, as we are all aware on here, an unusual case ON.
The vast majority of type 2 diabetes cases are caused by obesity, although some genetic factors have some influence.
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>> You are, as we are all aware on here, an unusual case ON.
As I have been called far worse than unusual I will take that as a compliment! :-)
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>>
>> Mine was caused by a gall stone wrecking my pancreas requiring major abdominal
>> surgery to save my life,
That's fortunately very rare, and an obvious exception to the generalisation that overall, the massive increase in incidence of Type 2 diabetes and the obesity epidemic are related.
It's surely an acknowledged medical fact that avoiding obesity also lessens the risk of diabetes?
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Another here - diagnosed type 2 about four years ago. Not Afro Caribbean, never been anywhere near overweight, never mind obese. No family history we know of.
Strangely, my diagnosis arrived within a couple of months of Mrs C being diagnosed with type 1, which of course we all know is different, but hey, looks like we do everything together.
We're both in our fifties.
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Statistics on medical things are all a bit wobbly as pointers to causes. People are individuals and there will always be exceptions.
I am sure Lygonos will be along soon with an informed view.
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The election has certainly emphasised the fact that there are some really nasty people on this forum these days.
Mind you, it has been quite enjoyable watching them wriggle these last few days. Like looking at a lot of wireworms in a bucket...
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This post that linked to a Yougov poll was pretty close to the number of seats:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=24356&m=536106&v=e
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>> The election has certainly emphasised the fact that there are some really nasty people on this forum these days.
Did I miss something​? Given that its politics I thought it had been reasonably well behaved.
I guess not since you also hot thumbs. Was it me?
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>> >> The election has certainly emphasised the fact that there are some really nasty people
>> on this forum these days.
>>
>> Did I miss something​? Given that its politics I thought it had been reasonably well
>> behaved.
>>
>> I guess not since you also hot thumbs. Was it me?
No Me Me - (shoulder him aside) Me Me
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Type 2 diabetes, often referred to as adult onset diabetes, can, in many cases, be controlled or even reversed by attention to diet and exercise.
Type 1 diabetes, often called juvenile diabetes, or insulin dependent diabetes, is an autoimmune disease that causes the insulin producing beta cells in the pancreas to be destroyed.
I've known two people with type 1 who lost legs due to being careless in controlling their condition properly.
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Type 2 Diabetes is currently costing around 10% of the entire NHS budgetand set to rise even higher. Some experts expect that the cost of treatement and care could even cause the NHS to collapse. For a disease that is largely avoidable by education and self help that is quite a scary propostion
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Tower blocks have always been my idea of Hell on Earth.
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>> Tower blocks have always been my idea of Hell on Earth.
I am heavily critical of her, but even I think calling her a Tower block is bit OTT
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>> >> Tower blocks have always been my idea of Hell on Earth.
>>
>> I am heavily critical of her, but even I think calling her a Tower block
>> is bit OTT
>>
I've done an AC, haven't I? :-(
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Yes:)
He would love that one!
Pat
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He doesn't seem to have been around for a while??
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 16:50
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Not posted since the 24th March. I hope he's okay. Perhaps got fed-up with this place.
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I know and I do worry about him but there's nothing I can do!
I do miss him though.
Pat
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I am mildly Type 2 diabetic brought on by long term steroid use due to another condition. I have to be careful diet wise though also take medication.
I can sympathise with Diane Abbott though I am not sure that symptoms would change so quickly that she would need to drop out of an election campaign with only 48 hours or so to go, what if she had been Home Secretary and due to attend a Cobra briefing etc.
Though we are all different and react differently to symptoms and medications.
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I see she is blaming the Tories for their "vicious" campaign, saying she was singled out as a target.
Two observations:
1) I didn't notice anything about the Tory campaign that had enough life in it to be labelled "vicious".
2) Ms Abbott made such a pig's ear of so many interviews she didn't need the Tories' help to make her look incompetent and stupid.
This is not to say I don't have any sympathy for someone who's ill, but, like others here, I feel that in her position she should be seen to be self-aware and on top of things, not floundering and helpless. The first qualification for a job is actually to be able to do the job, and the second is to turn up on time and actually do it. In neither regard did Ms Abbott suggest she was qualified to be a Home Secretary.
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>> I am sure Lygonos will be along soon with an informed view his biased lies.
Of course it's a disease - there's drugs for it so it must be ;-)
By the logic above, COPD(emphysema)/lung/throat/bladder cancer wouldn't be diseases because most relate to tobacco consumption.
The cause of type 2 diabetes is 'multifactorial' - genetic pre-disposition is common (like COPD in familes of smokers - if yer mum died a respiratory cripple, and you smoke... hell mend you)
Lifestyle factors are very strong also.
A not-very-scientific way of looking at it would be if you habitually eat enough calories/sugar that your liver/body cannot quickly deal with, your own insulin may start to become increasingly ineffective and you're on your way to T2D (insulin resistance).
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>> Lifestyle factors are very strong also.
>>
>> A not-very-scientific way of looking at it would be if you habitually eat enough calories/sugar
>> that your liver/body cannot quickly deal with, your own insulin may start to become increasingly
>> ineffective and you're on your way to T2D (insulin resistance).
>>
>>
Thanks
Is there any medical reason why the condition should have caused an experienced politician to make such a public prat of herself?
Last edited by: commerdriver on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 14:45
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>>Is there any medical reason why the condition should have caused an experienced politician to make such a public prat of herself?
Uncontrolled type 2 diabetes could cause big fluctuations in sugar levels, also some tablets can lead to hypos. Either can cause confusion and talking gibberish.
Plus she is a type 1 knobhead which pre-dates any of the diabetes stuff.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 14 Jun 17 at 15:45
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>> Plus she is a type 1 knobhead which pre-dates any of the diabetes stuff.
Are you referring to the PM, or Diane Abbott, of which the latter is what's currently being discussed?
The former has type 1, the latter type 2.
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>> >> Plus she is a type 1 knobhead which pre-dates any of the diabetes stuff.
>>
>> Are you referring to the PM, or Diane Abbott, of which the latter is what's
>> currently being discussed?
>>
>> The former has type 1, the latter type 2.
>>
He meant what he said: "type 1 knobhead" (he wasn't referring to diabetes).
Whether Theresa May also is a "type 1 knobhead" or some other classification is something I'll leave to Lygonos to diagnose.
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>> He meant what he said: "type 1 knobhead" (he wasn't referring to diabetes).
>>
I just knew someone would bite, I was biting my tounge, fingers, and keyboard. :-)
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>> Type 2 Diabetes is not really a disease as such. >>
It's a condition that can be managed by diet or medication and some people who otherwise might not become diabetic may do so due to diet and excess weight.
Though all sufferers have an underlying inability to control blood sugar levels which is definitely a disease.
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>> Though all sufferers have an underlying inability to control blood sugar levels which is definitely
>> a disease.
Illness or disorder, yes.
But disease?
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Another View - Bromptonaut
