Non-motoring > Corbyn - Volume 1   [Read only] Green Issues
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 178

 Corbyn - Volume 1 - No FM2R

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A bit of an oops, it would seem. [its a link to the Mail].

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4550956/Corbyn-laid-wreath-grave-Palestinian-terrorist.html
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 7 Jun 17 at 10:47
       
 Corbyn - rtj70
They really needed to replace him before an election and didn't know May would call one early.

We need a good opposition at the moment and sadly Corbyn is a joke. But somehow popular with the younger voters - they clearly do not realise the problems Labour governments caused in the past.
      1  
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>> They really needed to replace him before an election and didn't know May would call
>> one early.
>>
>> We need a good opposition at the moment and sadly Corbyn is a joke. But
>> somehow popular with the younger voters - they clearly do not realise the problems Labour
>> governments caused in the past.
>>

They can't replace him though, it is precisely those younger people who are keeping him at the helm - thanks to Ed's disasterous rule change.
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
A saw a pic of him on FaceBook apparently parading behind Gerry Adams who was being saluted by masked gunmen holding machine guns up high ...

Not fit to be an MP IMO, yet alone PM. Dianne Abbott is not much better, apparently she changes her views with her hairstyle.
      1  
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> A bit of an oops, it would seem.
>>

He batted off Paxman's questions on terrorism support very easily on the Sky/Ch4 debate last night. He's gained a huge lot of ground in the last few weeks:
britainelects.com/

But he's had a bad day today.

"Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised for Mumsnet users for not answering their questions and leaving their webchat "too early".

Shortly after his disastrous interview on Woman's Hour, Jeremy Corbyn geared up for a webchat at Mumsnet Towers.

However, he only answered a few questions, leaving his audience frustrated and annoyed."

Interview with Emma Barnet
order-order.com/2017/05/30/corbyn-self-destructs-on-womans-hour/
"EB: How much will it cost?

JC: Er, it will cost, er. It will obviously cost a lot, we accept that.

EB: You presumably have the figures?

JC: Yes, I do.

EB: So how much will it cost?

JC: I’ll give you the figure in a moment.

EB: You don’t know it.

JC: Er…

EB: You’re logging into your iPad here. You’re announcing a major policy. and you don’t know how much it will cost?

JC: Can I give you the exact figure in a moment?

EB: You’re holding your manifesto, you’re flicking through it, you’ve got an iPad there, you’ve had a phone call while you’re in here, and yet you don’t know how much it’s going to cost.

JC: Can we come back go that in a moment?

EB: This is a policy you’re launching this morning.

JC: I think what is important for voters to understand is that if we don’t invest in our children they do less well in primary school. less well in secondary school. less will in the future.

EB: But you don’t know the cost?

JC: I want to give you an accurate figure.

EB: This is a very expensive policy. Mr Corbyn. I’m going to help you out with the figures. Would you like to hear how much it’s going to cost?

JC: What we think is, it’s important to invest for the whole community and collect the money back through taxation on the principle of universalism.

EB: Would you like to know how much your policy is going to cost, Mr Corbyn?

JC: What is your estimate of it?

EB: Well. it‘s actually from Angela Rayner, your shadow education secretary. £2.7billion, and then £4.8billion. With half
a billion to reverse the cuts to the Sure Start scheme. Does that sound about right?

JC: It does sound correct"


Following that disaster, his supporters picked on Barnett
order-order.com/2017/05/30/corbynistas-send-emma-barnett-anti-semitic-abuse/
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Tue 30 May 17 at 18:40
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
Clearly he finds leading the way considerably more difficult than he found 20 years of lobbing bricks at those leading the way without ever having to justify his comments.

I wonder whether any level of self understanding will dawn, or if when this is all over he will just go back to lobbing bricks.
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass

>> I wonder whether any level of self understanding will dawn, or if when this is
>> all over he will just go back to lobbing bricks.
>>

I think he will not resign, even if he loses massively. If he gets the 38% or more that some polls are predicting, he will see that as vindication of his leadership. That is in Harold Wilson polling territory. Tony Blair got 35% in 2005.
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
I think he cannot resign and remain in politics. Resigning would make an utter nonsense of his many years of describing himself as a fighter and pretty much remove any possibility of him continuing as was.

However, I would not be at all surprised if he was deposed by one method or another and then simply slipped back into the persona and behaviour that was his until 2 years ago.
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
For all his failings I would take Jeremy every day of the week over that clueless woman we currently have as PM.
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
Do we have any decent politicians now in any party?
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
Not as far as I'm aware.
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> Do we have any decent politicians now in any party?
>>

Daniel Hannan and Bernard Jenkin of Tories. I think Either of them in place of Theresa May would do fine.

Barry Gardiner of Labour. I think he would get a landslide for Labour if he replaced Corbyn.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/05/how-barry-gardiner-went-wannabe-vicar-high-priest-corbynism
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
>> For all his failings I would take Jeremy every day of the week over that
>> clueless woman we currently have as PM.


He is probably more sincere, but some of his ideas are ridiculous.
      1  
 Corbyn - Zero
Strangely much of what he says makes sense. But his timing, delivery, and credibility is appalling.

Plus the Labour party Manifesto is "What do you want? ok here it is with knobs on" Who's going to pay? the rich of course" "Can they afford it? of course they can, what else do you want, let us know and we will add it to the bill"
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>>Who's going to pay? the rich of course" "Can they afford it? of
>> course they can,

Are all the rich people with huge school run mummy SUVs getting worried? :-)
       
 Corbyn - MD
>>"Can they afford it? of course they can, what else do you want, let us know and we will add
>> it to the bill"
>>
Add it to THEIR bill.
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> For all his failings I would take Jeremy every day of the week
>>
I would agree with his anti-nuclear and anti-war policies if they would match Germany's. (No nuclear weapons, smaller military spend, small contribution to Nato, etc.). I would also take UKIP's policy on "UK first" by cutting foreign aid if it is diverted to solving problems faced here at home.

>> clueless woman we currently have as PM.
>>
In what way is she clueless?
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
> I would agree with his anti-nuclear and anti-war policies if they would match Germany's. (No nuclear weapons, smaller military spend, small contribution to Nato, etc.).

It's a fundamentally conceited policy, Germany (politically) are against nuclear weapons but retain access to them.




I would also take UKIP's
>> policy on "UK first" by cutting foreign aid if it is diverted to solving problems
>> faced here at home.

Foreign aid can of course help reduce problems at home or stop them from occurring in the first place.
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> It's a fundamentally conceited policy, Germany (politically) are against nuclear weapons
>> but retain access to them.
We should become so conceited too.

>> Foreign aid can of course help reduce problems at home or stop them from occurring
>> in the first place.
>>

How would foreign aid help prevent "dementia tax"?

Other problems at home are (say Zero and Corbyn among others) a result of UK intervention in foreign wars/disputes.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Tue 30 May 17 at 21:43
       
 Corbyn - sooty123

>> We should become so conceited too.

Hopefully not, it's dishonest. You either want them or at least access to them or you don't. If a country wants a certain capability then they should pay for it.



> How would foreign aid help prevent "dementia tax"?
>>

It wouldn't, but that's not to say it can't solve any (potential) problems.
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass

>> It wouldn't, but that's not to say it can't solve any (potential) problems.
>>
So you think it is fine to borrow billions, add to our ever groing mountain of trillions of debt, and pass the billions via expensive "administrators" on to the "poor" countries (where those in power openly laugh at what they consider it to be our stupidity)?

latest example - South Sudan

Sudan in 1990s - A full 80% of the aid - mostly food and fuel - sent to help the thousands who faced starvation there as a result of the conflict was stolen.
South Sudan 2017 - UN experts say South Sudan's government is spending at least half its budget on weapons while 100,000 people are dying in a famine. The UK has pledged more funding to ease the humanitarian crisis in South Sudan.
       
 Corbyn - CGNorwich
"The UK has pledged more funding to ease the humanitarian crisis in South Sudan".

Good

We should be proud of what we are doing. I cant' think of a better use of money than treating 360,000 children wiht acute malnutirition can you?

www.gov.uk/government/news/famine-in-south-sudan


       
 Corbyn - sooty123
> So you think it is fine to borrow billions, add to our ever groing mountain
>> of trillions of debt, and pass the billions via expensive "administrators" on to the "poor"
>> countries (where those in power openly laugh at what they consider it to be our
>> stupidity)?

I.think its better and cheaper to solve problems where they are than wait until they reach us. Jordan being a good example.
Yes giving aid isn't perfect however stopping it is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Of course there's the humanitarian angle, to answer your question no i don't mind money being spent on the staving wherever they may be.
       
 Corbyn - Zero
Corbyn has just uttered the very thing that makes him clueless and encapsulates the Labour give you everything manifesto.

"We are going to cut £1000 off your rail commute and freeze train fares"

" Where is the money coming from"

"Money we save when we nationalise the railway"

Right jezza you banker, nationalisation is going to cost you money, plus you have already promised money you claim you will save on investment in the railway.

You can't nationalise, give the rail workers more, invest and cut fares all on the same money
       
 Corbyn - Dog
A manny festo is only a wish list and not cast in stone like the bacon sandwich mans was. Thems can promise anything they want, if they stand absolutely no chance of gaining office, to attract those deficient in the brain cell department, such as the Greens saying they'd cancel the replacement of Trident, or the Kippers saying they'd scrap HS2 and amend the Barnet Formula.

I'm not for one minute suggesting all politicians are liars, but they can at times be a tad mendacious.

       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
>> For all his failings I would take Jeremy every day of the week over that
>> clueless woman we currently have as PM.
>>

You're in Scotland IIRC Bobby so you mean FM surely, that dreadful women is certainly clueless.
      1  
 Corbyn - BrianByPass

>> You're in Scotland IIRC Bobby so you mean FM surely, that dreadful women is certainly
>> clueless.
>>


The Scottish FM's opponent Kezia Dugdale (who has gone public about her lesbian relationship) has a sense of humour even when she is the butt lip of the Freudian slip:

twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/868771874720944128

twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/868764222859206657
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut

>> The Scottish FM's opponent Kezia Dugdale (who has gone public about her lesbian relationship)

Apart from fact that you're demonstrating a juvenile sense of humour any 'lezza' jokes about Kezia Dugdale are equally applicable to Ruth Davidson.
      1  
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>>
>> >> The Scottish FM's opponent Kezia Dugdale (who has gone public about her lesbian relationship)
>>
>>
>> Apart from fact that you're demonstrating a juvenile sense of humour any 'lezza' jokes about
>> Kezia Dugdale are equally applicable to Ruth Davidson.
>>

What about the fact that Kezia herself joined in the joke? See her twitter post. She was game for it, but you can't stomach it. Don't be so dour.

Some people like to make a career out of taking offence on behalf of others.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Tue 30 May 17 at 22:17
      1  
 Corbyn - henry k
The Times headline ( behind a paywall)
"Shock poll predicts Tory losses"

Yougov poll- hung parliament with 20 seats with 20 fewre seats for May.
Con 310
Lab 257

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40101529
       
 Corbyn - rtj70
I hope it happens and we have a coalition of sorts. There was no real need for an election and the Conservatives are assuming a big majority.

I would like to see Nick Clegg with a key role in BREXIT and the next Government.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> A bit of an oops, it would seem. [its a link to the Mail].
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4550956/Corbyn-laid-wreath-grave-Palestinian-terrorist.html

The man concerned is said to have been 'involved' in the Munich outrage but the article is vague as level of involvement. The path from terrorist to statesman is a well trodden one and at time of his death he seems to have had formal role in the Palestinian movement.

It's no secret that Corbyn believes that the way to make progress with terrorism is to explore it's motivations/causes and try to address them. In Ireland and elsewhere that's exactly how peace has come about.

Extra judicial killings by Mossad push matters in the opposite direction.
       
 Corbyn - Ambo
Whatever happened to the Tory landslide predicted when the election was announced? Mostly scuppered by May's own announcements, I suppose. If she carries on in the same cack-handed way over Brexit negotiations they will be imperilled.
       
 Corbyn - helicopter
The Tory landslide will still be forthcoming Ambo, mark my words.

Even dyed in the wool Labour party members MP's and most of his shadow cabinet hate the man and cannot see him winning.

I do not like May ,her vacillation on the Brexit vote ,her policy on social care charges and the abolition of the triple lock on pensions are anathema to me however.....

IMO Corbyn should be discussed in the terrible old jokes thread...the man is a joke...and as for Diane Abbot as Home Secretary...AAAAARGH!
      2  
 Corbyn - Crankcase
>> The Tory landslide will still be forthcoming Ambo, mark my words.

I know I keep linking to mumsnet, which I do unashamedly look at from time to time, but over there, they seem to think differently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2942292-What-would-be-your-ideal-outcome-to-the-general-election

       
 Corbyn - helicopter
As a poster so succinctly put it on that Mumsnet thread Crankcase..... the clue is in the title ....there is a major difference between' ideal 'and 'realistic' outcome....
       
 Corbyn - madf
Since Corbyn has clearly shown he cannot organise a semi competent Opposition to the Government - not once but repeatedly over his leadership, anyone who thinks he could make a competent PM has no concept of the difficulties of the job.


You can judge a leader by their chosen lieutenants. Anyone who thinks McDonnell and Abbot are fit to run a teashop let alone a country has got to be seriously deluded. Or mad. Or both.

Mrs May is a boring and not very bright third rate politician. Her saving grace is she is opposed by a less bright sixth rate one.


I expect a large Tory majority. You Gov always overstate Labour and understate the Tories...
Last edited by: madf on Wed 31 May 17 at 13:38
       
 Corbyn - Crankcase
Well, at least we shouldn't have to deal with The Two Heath problem.

From:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39893787

Edward Heath v Edward Heath

Voters in the London borough of Bexley were faced with a dilemma during the general election of 1970.

Up until then, only candidates' names were present on the ballot paper, and not their political parties. But an independent candidate legally changed his name to Edward Heath, generating a second "Heath" for voters to choose from.

This sent the Tory party into a frenzy, and it published a leaflet explaining what it said was an attempt to "mislead" Bexley's voters. Just to clarify matters further, it popped a picture of the real Edward Heath on the leaflet, looking suitably athletic on a yacht.

It did the trick too, because Mr Heath swept into No 10 on the back of a surprise victory.
       
 Corbyn - commerdriver
>> It's no secret that Corbyn believes that the way to make progress with terrorism is
>> to explore it's motivations/causes and try to address them. In Ireland and elsewhere that's
>> exactly how peace has come about.
>>
>> Extra judicial killings by Mossad push matters in the opposite direction.
>>
the problem with Corbyn's view is that it does not work at the start of the conflict. Negotiations will not lead to peace from the start because nobody on either side wants to negotiate.
It is a horrible and difficult choice. When, for example, the violence, shootings, bombings etc were happening in NI it took a long time before anybody was willing to negotiate.

Sometimes, no usually, negotiation at the start is very similar to surrender to the violence and is a waste of time.
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
Out of the big English newspaper titles, what are the political leanings of their owners?
Which ones are Tory and which are Labour?
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
The FT and the Times lean to the right and favour the Conservatives. Ditto the Telegraph, Sun and the Mail except they don't lean, they have fallen over.

The Grauniad is pro-Labour, as is the Mirror.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> The Grauniad is pro-Labour

While it's favoured Labour for much of recent past the Guardian is (small l) liberal and at one time aligned with SDP and backed the LibDems in 2010.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 31 May 17 at 17:46
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
The FT and the Times lean to the right and favour the Conservatives. Ditto the Telegraph, Sun and the Mail except they don't lean, they have fallen over.

So if you want an accurate report of Corbyn, or Labour, dont read any of the most popular selling papers? Wonder how many of their readers look elsewhere for unbiased, or biased to the left information to form an overall informative decision?

Or just be swayed by their billionaire owners?
       
 Corbyn - CGNorwich
If you want an accurate report of what Corbyn has actually said any of the quality papers will give you that. So will the BBC. If you want the papers views rather than straight reporting of facts read the editorial and other comment columns

       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Out of the big English newspaper titles, what are the political leanings of their owners?
>> Which ones are Tory and which are Labour?

They're all Tory except for the Mirror, Guardian and Independent/I.

Mail, Telegraph and Times are owned by 'non doms' resident for tax purposes in other jurisdictions.
       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>> >>
>>
>> They're all Tory except for the Mirror, Guardian and Independent/I.
>>
>>
>>
Plus the Morning Star, also a daily paper. Which no-one reads because it makes the Mail look politically neutral.

And The Sun will support whoever it's readers are likely to vote for which is mostly Conservative, but when it saw the mood change in '97 and back again in 2010 it shrugged it's shoulders and went along with it.

Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 31 May 17 at 17:57
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
>> >> Out of the big English newspaper titles, what are the political leanings of their
>> owners?
>> >> Which ones are Tory and which are Labour?
>>
>> They're all Tory except for the Mirror, Guardian and Independent/I.
>>

And the Observer.
       
 Corbyn - Dulwich Estate II
I wouldn't be concerned about the political leanings, either left or right, of newspapers having any influence on the outcome of the election. Very few people I know and certainly nobody I know under around 35/40 even reads a newspaper now. Those that do tend to read the title that confirms their already held opinions.



       
 Corbyn - Bobby
I think that is pretty naive DE, its not just the reading of the paper its the online, its following them on twitter, its following their social media feeds.

You dont need to buy a paper to be influenced by its owner but even then, the circulation of these papers will still be into the millions, if not tens of millions each day?
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
I don't know I'm not sure those that aren't newspaper buyers look at them online? I doubt it.
As for sales i would think a few million collectively but no more. Their sales are falling all the time.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 09:19
       
 Corbyn - CGNorwich
Circulation figure for all UK newspapers is around 8 million.
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
I'm surprised it's so high. I'd have thought about half that.
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
Facebook is full of shared articles mostly the ones with sensational 'fake news' headlines. The papers remain powerful and it is to a large extent they who created the wide public perception of Corbyn as a figure of fun.

They are not laughing now. It will be interesting to see if there is a flipping point - TM must be a let down for many.

I'd take Angus Robertson over either of them, based on what I have seen on the idiot lantern. The quality of the SNP politicians is quite good, if the indy obsession could be subtracted.
       
 Corbyn - Mike Hannon
Describing the Grauniad as 'pro-Labour' would probably come as a surprise to editor Kath Viner.
Incidentally, I read the Morning Star.
       
 Corbyn - Falkirk Bairn
>> The quality of the SNP politicians is quite good, if the indy obsession could be subtracted.

The day job of SNP is NHS, Police, Education, transport & all are in greater trouble then E&W - ask any Polisman, Teacher, Doctor or Nurse.

They only focus on separation & ignore the obvious - Scotland is heading South in jobs, services.

SNP is fixated on EU, they ignore England is 4 or 5 x a bigger market.

Yesterday I saw Nippy Sweety (AKA Nicola / Mrs Murrell) in Anstruther - a bustling fishing port 50 years ago & now a harbour with leisure craft - the only local fishing is crabs etc as Scottish waters are shared with EU trawlers. Similar story to Cornwall/Devon fishing fleets than are but a shadow of what they were.

Mind you the fish & chips is outstanding - dined like a Lord & Lady for £30!
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
Talking of the SNP, why didn't their leader go to the debate?
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
>> Talking of the SNP, why didn't their leader go to the debate?
>>

Cos she was in Anstruther ...

;-)
       
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope
>> Talking of the SNP, why didn't their leader go to the debate?
>>

Because she is not an MP and is not the leader of the SNP in the Commons.
      1  
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
>> >> Talking of the SNP, why didn't their leader go to the debate?
>> >>
>>
>> Because she is not an MP and is not the leader of the SNP in
>> the Commons.
>>

I guess that's the real reason though Paul Nutall attended.

I am not sure that I agree that the Greens, UKIP etc with one MP or whatever should be given equal billing with the Tories, Labour etc.
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
Because she is not an MP and is not the leader of the SNP in
>> the Commons.
>>


Ah yes I'd forgotten about that.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Because she is not an MP and is not the leader of the SNP in
>> >> the Commons.

I thought that first but Leanne Wood is not and MP and therefore not Plaid leader in Commons.

More likely I think that NS followed line of not debating unless May was there. Even if Corbyn's presence changed that practicalities of getting from Anstruther to CAmbridge were probably against her.
       
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope

>>
>> I thought that first but Leanne Wood is not an MP and therefore not Plaid
>> leader in Commons.

Good point - I'd missed that.
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
>>The day job of SNP is NHS, Police, Education, transport & all are in greater trouble then E&W - ask any Polisman, Teacher, Doctor or Nurse.

They only focus on separation & ignore the obvious - Scotland is heading South in jobs, services.

I previously switched from Labour to SNP but rapidly moving back. Yes, ultimately, I would like Scottish independence but as FB says, there is plenty in the day job to keep them occupied just now. And there is an argument that SNP are to independence what UKIP were to Brexit - when it happens they are a busted flush.

Problem in Scotland are the leaders. The labour leader is a clueless woman who is the latest in a line of leaders who have taken the short straw cos no one else really wanted it. So is a vote for labour a vote for her?

Dilemmas!!
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> And there is an argument that SNP are to independence
>> what UKIP were to Brexit - when it happens they are a busted flush.

It will always be "if" until the SNP can explain how they will fund an independent Scotland and get people to believe them. Don't hold your breath! :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 17:32
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
>>It will always be "if" until the SNP can explain how they will fund an independent Scotland and get people to believe them. Don't hold your breath! :-)

They only need to convince 51% of the votes when it happens......
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> They only need to convince 51% of the votes when it happens......
>>

IF it happens I have an English passport, driving licence, pensions, and backup address in England. My house value might take a hit as there will be lots on the market as people bale out.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 18:20
       
 Corbyn - Bobby
I don't see that happening re houses.
Fact of the matter is house prices up here are generally much cheaper than equivalent in England.

If someone here is willing to sell a 300k house to go down south and pay an extra 200k for a similar house then that would be up to them!

Anyway can't see it happening for foreseeable future.
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> If someone here is willing to sell a 300k house to go down south and
>> pay an extra 200k for a similar house then that would be up to them!
>>
>>
>> Anyway can't see it happening for foreseeable future.
>>

I would expect most baling out would join the expats and their descendents in the USA, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, rather than Berwick or Carlisle.

I have just remembered that my tax code has an "S" prefix which means that the SNP can adjust it.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 20:39
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
>> ultimately, I would like Scottish independence

I'd be really interested in trying to understand why it matters to you. Or the Scottish in general.

I don't mean to cast any judgement at all, I just don't quite get it myself. I'm Welsh, but have never really got the Welsh Nationalists. I like being Welsh, but it doesn't really matter to me what, if anything, Wales is part of. At least, not from an emotional point of view. Viewing economically, politically or financially might influence that.

Though Wales is/was of course a Principality not a Kingdom.


       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> I'd be really interested in trying to understand why it matters to you. Or the
>> Scottish in general.
>>

Many Scots have a huge chip on their shoulder because they have been ill treated by the English in the past but can't see the advantages that the union brings now.
       
 Corbyn - Manatee

>> Many Scots have a huge chip on their shoulder because they have been ill treated
>> by the English in the past but can't see the advantages that the union brings
>> now.

Actually because their ancestors, not them, were badly treated by some people who happened to be English and are now also dead?
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> Actually because their ancestors, not them, were badly treated by some people who happened to
>> be English and are now also dead?
>>

Not strictly true, the English are also blamed for the closure of the coal mines, the poll tax experiment on Scotland, but not the Barnett formula. :-)

Remember the only areas that voted for independence were the two " benefit" cities, Glasgow and Dundee.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 21:07
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
The English blame the same people for the closure of the coal mines and the poll tax - it's not as if they were specially picked on!
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> The English blame the same people for the closure of the coal mines and the
>> poll tax - it's not as if they were specially picked on!
>>

The poll tax was introduced in Scotland as a trial long before it was tried in England. Central Scotland was a huge coal producer, many villages were wholly reliant on mining, and thousands lost their jobs. The SNP play on this and always deflect any blame south.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 1 Jun 17 at 21:17
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
You had it for 5 years, we had it for 4.
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> You had it for 5 years, we had it for 4.
>>

A year longer to get wound up about it. But in reality the nationalists, who already have a huge historical dislike of the English see it as further evidence that they are second class citizens of the UK. What they can't (or won't) see are the advantages of the union or how independence would be funded.
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
There's obviously more to it than the Poll Tax. Though I never worked out what exactly was wrong with the Poll Tax.

Why do the Scotch care *so* much?
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> Why do the Scotch care *so* much?
>>

The highland clearances didn't help!

Anyway don't ask me I'm English! I just live here. :-)
       
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope

>> The highland clearances didn't help!
>>


I thought that was Scottish landowners clearing crofters from the land to make way for sheep?
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> I thought that was Scottish landowners clearing crofters from the land to make way for
>> sheep?

Did you read my link below?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Jun 17 at 10:15
       
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope
>> >> I thought that was Scottish landowners clearing crofters from the land to make way
>> for
>> >> sheep?
>>
>> Did you read my link below?
>>

Yes - that's what I said, in essence. Or are you disowning the Scottish landlords like the Gordons and saying they were really English anyway?
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Though I never worked out what
>> exactly was wrong with the Poll Tax.

It was massively regressive. If it had been £50 a year it might have been reasonable. At £500 it wasn't.

See www.amazon.co.uk/Blunders-Our-Governments-Anthony-King/dp/1780742665
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
So people thought that it was too expensive?

Wow. Who'd have thought it, people don't like the size of a tax. Not the stuff of the moral high ground though, is it.
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy

www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/the-highland-clearances-1-465248
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
Rates were essentially a property tax. Community Charge was per nob. One of the things that appealed was that whilst your "wealth creator" might be able to pay less tax than those on PAYE, at least they got clobbered for living in the big house.

The rich man in his castle got a massive reduction when the poll tax came in, and the peasants in their hovels got a massive increase.

As Bromptonaut says, if it had been £50 it might have flown, but it was effectively unaffordable for many folk.

The other problem was that it was easy to dodge for those so minded. People move around, properties don't.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Not the stuff of the moral high ground though, is it.

No, but the way it bore unduly heavily on the poorest in society was.

It was also very expensive to collect, particularly in places like inner London, University towns etc with a rapidly changing population.

Ministers were warned about all the pitfalls but blundered on regardless, to some extent because it had support of the PM. Very good account in the book I linked to above.
       
 Corbyn - Stuartli
>> There's obviously more to it than the Poll Tax. Though I never worked out what exactly was wrong with the Poll Tax.>>

in theory the Poll Tax was more fair - if you say had a semi-detached property, the couple living on one side would pay the normal council tax whilst a family of four, five, six or even more next door would pay for each individual for services received.

Unfortunately it didn't work out that way over all the UK.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
SQ
>> Unfortunately it didn't work out that way over all the UK.

There were some unfair elements to it i recall.

If married then a working spouse would be responsible for the poll tax of a non-working spouse and could go to prison if it was unpaid.

Which does seem unfair when applied to a tax per person, surely the individuals liability should stay with the individual. I am not responsible for my spouse's unpaid income tax after all!

(Were parents also responsible for over 18 year old children who were not working and not in education?)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Jun 17 at 10:16
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> There's obviously more to it than the Poll Tax. Though I never worked out what
>> exactly was wrong with the Poll Tax.
>>
>> Why do the Scotch care *so* much?
>>

Also this didn't help, the A9 and A82 were military roads built to provide access to these forts from the south.

www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/Highland-Forts-of-Scotland/
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 2 Jun 17 at 09:03
       
 Corbyn - Pat
Well I notice the usual pedants have tactfully ignored your clanger Mark, so I feel it my duty to point out that Scotch is a drink, Scots are people.:)

Pat
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> Well I notice the usual pedants have tactfully ignored your clanger Mark, so I feel
>> it my duty to point out that Scotch is a drink, Scots are people.:)
>>
>> Pat
>>

I assumed it was pedant bait. :-)
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R

What about eggs & ham? They're also Scotch.

As for clanger, no, just fishing. I almost always catch one. Perhaps that's why the "usual pedants" didn't comment?
       
 Corbyn - Pat
Good try Mark....thought you would have managed better than that.

Never believe someone who gives two explanations when one will do the job!

Pat
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
Don't be an idiot, Pat. Search my name and the word "Scotch" and see how many times it comes up.

I don't really think that a battle of wits is ideal territory for you.
       
 Corbyn - Pat
Well, it obviously isn't for you .....when you find your sense of humour again and stop taking yourself so seriously let me know!

It was a simple mistake you made, a typo, a slip of the tongue and it happens to us all.

Thankfully we can laugh at the ensuing ribbing we have to take:)

Pat
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
Pat,

Get over your obsession, honestly. Surely you have better things to do with your life than obsess over me? Its becoming a little sad.
       
 Corbyn - Pat
I know how to press your buttons Mark, as I've just proven.

You trot out all the old phrases, it never fails!!!

Pat
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
How small.

I'll leave you to it.
       
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope
>>
>>
>> It was a simple mistake you made, a typo, a slip of the tongue and
>> it happens to us all.


It's a modern affectation to pretend that Scotch cannot be used for Scottish.

" You know I am an enthusiast in old Scotch songs."

1788 letter by Robert Burns, referring to Auld lang syne.
      1  
 Corbyn - Pat
Try telling that to the Glaswegian Goods In bloke, just after he's had his lunch break in the pub when you've just called him a short Scotch jock in a frock.

I did and wouldn't recommend it!

Pat
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
>>
>> I'd take Angus Robertson over either of them, based on what I have seen on
>> the idiot lantern. The quality of the SNP politicians is quite good, if the indy
>> obsession could be subtracted.
>>

Angus Robertson seems like a good politician and likeable, though he's the exception, Nicola Sturgeon is just awful ...
       
 Corbyn - Falkirk Bairn
>>Angus Robertson seems like a good politician

Only plays the single tune of Independence & EU on the flip side.
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
SNP idea of canvassing.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/809821/General-Election-2017-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-activist-threat-Conservatives
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> www.express.co.uk/news/politics/809821/General-Election-2017-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-activist-threat-Conservatives

Ho Ho. One memory of either 70 or 74 was seeing a rather more refined version of that from an immaculately dressed older gent aimed at the Liberal candidate's loudspeaker car. Heckler's view was that area, a well heeled estate adjoining the village of Guiseley, was true blue territory and the Orange interloper had no business being there.
       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant

>>
>> Ho Ho. One memory of either 70 or 74 was seeing a rather more refined
>> version of that from an immaculately dressed older gent aimed at the Liberal candidate's loudspeaker car.
>>

Aside from that being over forty years ago there is a difference between one individual nutter (All parties have many among their voters) and a party member and activist doing the same thing. Whatever your views you have to admit such people are an embarrassment to which ever party they are members of.
       
 Corbyn - Falkirk Bairn
>>Angus Robertson seems like a good politician and likeable, though he's the exception, Nicola Sturgeon is just awful ...

Question Time last night

Angus claiming Green Credentials

Scotland can generate over 50% of its power by green methods!!

A True statement BUT almost entirely dependent on WIND.
In the depths of winter, when demand for leccy is @ a maximum, there can be no wind for days as High Pressure = cold weather & no wind in November to March!! (Stormy weather = no windmill power as they are locked down to save from damage.

What is the Scotland back-up plan? We will import from England, who are themselves short of power in the depths of winter.
       
 Corbyn - The Melting Snowman
>> What is the Scotland back-up plan?

Plenty of hot air available from Scottish politicians. Should be sufficient I think.
       
 Corbyn - Old Navy
>> >> What is the Scotland back-up plan?
>>

There is no plan "A" for post independence let alone a backup plan.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
Thought it was strange to see the obviously plain clothes policemen looking very hot and talking in to their radios in the close.

Then Amber Rudd appeared at my front door!

Eek with me in an old t-shirt and jogging bottoms!
       
 Corbyn - The Melting Snowman
I am sure there are many in the Labour party who are in private rather hoping that Labour will get a good hammering at this election. Then surely this leader must have to go. If, however, he does relatively well then it will strengthen his hold and Labour's problems will continue.

This whole election seems particularly boring, more so than any I can remember. I think I shall pop over and see what the farts are making of it all.
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
>> I am sure there are many in the Labour party who are in private rather
>> hoping that Labour will get a good hammering at this election.

Some, no doubt, who well and truly burnt their boats. Some others I suspect who are wondering how they might rehabilitate themselves now it appears he might not have been so unelectable after all.
      1  
 Corbyn - zippy
>> he might not have been so unelectable after all.

Its difficult to call. Not met the bloke and most of the papers seem to be really against him so tend to slight him at every opportunity, which is what they seemed to do with most labour leaders save for Blair in the beginning and John Smith.

May hasn't been elected by the popular vote either and everyone who I have spoken to doesn't like the fact that she missed the debate.

The fogies didn't like her U-turns, especially with regards health costs. They want to know where they stand.

I don't like the way she turned from a campaigner for remain and now is driving for a potentially hard Brexit. A leopard can't change its spots that quickly and I therefore wonder about integrity.

I have the same problem with Amber Rudd for the same reasons and told her so when she was canvassing for my vote earlier.

I do think we need to make the best of Brexit now that we are going down this route and from experience with Europeans they don't take posturing very well so all this no deal rather than bad deal stuff doesn't help.

IMHO, she's no Thatcher.


      1  
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>>
>> I have the same problem with Amber Rudd for the same reasons and told her
>> so when she was canvassing for my vote earlier.
>>
>>
I met Stephen Crabb (Con, Preseli Pembrokeshire) while working in a small village today. I let him know that I thought the Tory campaign was a complete disaster that was costing them votes hand over fist. From his smile and facial expression I formed the opinion that he agreed with me, though he obviously couldn't say so.

But they are making Corbyn look like a statesman by attacking him personally without much attempt to dissect his policies and show why they think they would be unworkable. God knows what May was thinking bringing up fox hunting, those in favour are all Tory voters anyway and all she did was to alienate people who are opposed. It was a five star lose lose policy and I doubt it will get her a single vote that wouldn't have been hers anyway.

It will be better for the Conservatives if they lose next week and watch Labour screw it up for the next five years than to be returned with a reduced majority. They need to get their fingers out, and fast.
      1  
 Corbyn - Dutchie
That sounds positive Robin.If Labour wins they are expected to screw up for the next five years?

What has happened the last 7 years Robin is one big screw up under the Tories I might say.Inflation is rising fast we have a divided society.Social care and the N.H.S is going down the pan.Brexit is going to be damage limitation.

       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>> That sounds positive Robin.If Labour wins they are expected to screw up for the next
>> five years?
>>
>>
>>
If Labour can fund their election promises we'll be in the land of milk and honey. If they can't and you think we're screwed now, you ain't seen nothing yet.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>>If Labour can fund their election promises we'll be in the land of milk and honey. If they can't
>>and you think we're screwed now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Govt debt as a percentage of GDP in 2010 = 76%
Govt debt as a percentage of GDP in 2015 = 89%

Average Govt debt between 1997 and 2009 (Labour years) was 42%.

What amazes me is that the Conservatives have the audacity to ridicule Labour on the economy!


       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
Labour are hardly promising to reduce the figure, are they?
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>> Labour are hardly promising to reduce the figure, are they?
>>

Don't get me wrong, I am undecided at the moment. They are both a bunch of twits with half baked policies and promises.
      1  
 Corbyn - The Melting Snowman
My missus tends to vote for personalities rather than policies. This time around Mrs May gets her vote because of her shoes. Seems to make as much sense as some of the garbage the various parties are spouting at the moment.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>> My missus tends to vote for personalities rather than policies. This time around Mrs May
>> gets her vote because of her shoes. Seems to make as much sense as some
>> of the garbage the various parties are spouting at the moment.
>>

Gawd, there is me trying to evaluate the best of a bad bunch by looking through their manifestos and policies etc.

I wonder who the bigger twit is?
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - Lygonos
May has batted on and on about how awesome a negotiator she is (sounds like flaming Trump) - here's a somewhat biased, but I fear accurate assessment of her lack of suitability to the task ahead.

www.craigmurray.org.uk/


"All of which underlines a thought that has been pulling at me ever since the election started. May has continually tried to pitch this as a question of who you would wish to act as the negotiator of Brexit, either her or Jeremy Corbyn. But why would anybody believe that a woman who is not even capable to debate with her opponents would be a good negotiator?

In fact she would be an appalling negotiator. She becomes completely closed off when contradicted. She is incapable of thinking on her feet. She is undoubtedly the worst performer at Prime Minister’s Questions, either for government or opposition, since they were first broadcast. Why on earth would anybody think she would be a good negotiator? As soon as Michel Barnier made a point she was not expecting across the table, she would switch off and revert to cliché, and probably give off a great deal of hostility too.

The delusion she would negotiate well has been fed by the media employing all kinds of completely inappropriate metaphors for the Brexit negotiations. From metaphors of waging war to metaphors of playing poker, they all characterise the process as binary and aggressive.

In fact – and I speak as somebody who has undertaken very serious international negotiations, including of the UK maritime boundaries and as the Head of UK Delegation to the Sierra Leone Peace Talks – intenational negotiation is the opposite. It is a cooperative process and not a confrontational process. Almost all negotiations cover a range of points, and they work on the basis of you give a bit there, and I give a bit here. Each side has its bottom lines, subjects on which it cannot move at all or move but to a limited degree. Sometimes on a single subject two “bottom lines” can be in direct conflict. Across the whole range of thousands of subjects, you are trying to find a solution all can live with.

So empathy with your opposite number is a key requirement in a skilled negotiator, and everything I have ever seen about Theresa May marks her out as perhaps having less emotional intelligence than anybody I have ever observed. Bonhommie is also important. Genuine friendship can be a vital factor in reaching agreement, and it can happen in unexpected ways. But May has never been able to strike up friendships outside of a social circle limited to a very particular segment of English society, excluding the vast majority of the English, let alone Scots and heaven forfend continentals. The best negotiators have affability, or at least the ability to switch it on. It is a vital tool.

That is not to say occasionally you do not have to speak and stare hard to make plain that one of your bottom lines is real. But that is by no means the norm. And you need the intelligence and sharpness to carry it off, which May does not. That is one of the many differences between May and Thatcher.

Frankly, if I had the choice between sending in Jeremy Corbyn, with his politeness and reasonableness, or Theresa May, into a negotiation I would not hesitate for a second in choosing Corbyn. I am quite sure there is not another diplomat in the World who would make a different choice. May’s flakiness and intolerance of disagreement represent a disaster waiting to happen."



As I have previously noted, she started off showing promise but has slid into Gordon Brown levels of mediocrity as a leader.
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - No FM2R
>>she started off showing promise but has slid into Gordon Brown levels of mediocrity as a leader.

I realise that I am remote and so don't see as much information as you lot, but when did she show promise? She seems unchanged and awful to me.
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - CGNorwich
I think that most people were slightly relieved when Mrs May became Prime Minisister. It was question of best out of a bad bunch. Disillusionment soon set in however. Sooner she returns to her former role of ordering the stationery or whatever it was the better.
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - Lygonos
>>but when did she show promise

To be fair I think she appeared the 'least bad option' after Cammo resigned.

She is unutterably awful.

Tagging her a second-rate Thatcher would be a hideous slur on Maggie.
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - sooty123
I realise that I am remote and so don't see as much information as you
>> lot, but when did she show promise? She seems unchanged and awful to me.
>>

At the beginning when she won the leadership contest, she was seen as a safe pair of hands.
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - Dog
>>www.craigmurray.org.uk/

Isn't he the wee chappie who said, following the 2014 Scotch Independence Referendumb;

"Those who had voted No were either evil, or quite extraordinarily thick"

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/10/lack-of-forgiveness/
       
 Succinct assessment of May's credentials - BrianByPass
Tories were given the choice of May only as their leader (Boris dropped out, Gove dropped out, Leadsome dropped out - before the Party could even put it to a vote).

May will not be doing the negotiating. She will decide on the red lines. There will be no deal because she won't budge on her red lines. The first hurdle will be the rights of EU citizens already in the UK. There is no way she will agree to giving them more rights [*] than UK citizens that they enjoy here.

[*] - this woman found out that by taking up UK status, she lost some of her rights
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/07/british-at-last-dutch-woman-horrified-loss-rights-monique-hawkins

tiny excerpt from:
www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/04/29-euco-brexit-guidelines/
"The right for every EU citizen, and of his or her family members, to live, to work or to study in any EU Member State is a fundamental aspect of the European Union. Along with other rights provided under EU law, it has shaped the lives and choices of millions of people. Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to safeguard the status and rights derived from EU law at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union will be the first priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be effective, enforceable, non-discriminatory and comprehensive, including the right to acquire permanent residence after a continuous period of five years of legal residence. Citizens should be able to exercise their rights through smooth and simple administrative procedures."

If you have access to FT website, this analysis shows why that will be difficult to achieve:
www.ft.com/content/7c008997-e2a9-360d-89a3-1646dcbdae0f
      1  
 Corbyn - Pat
>> My missus tends to vote for personalities rather than policies. <<

As do a lot of people and while Theresa May had the backing of so many when she first started as PM, I fear she's lost a lot of that as we've all got to know her, and her way of working since.

Having centered this whole election campaign around the Theresa May persona instead of the Conservative Party could prove to be her downfall yet.

I'd like to hear more of the 'we' and less of the 'I', and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Pat
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese

>> What amazes me is that the Conservatives have the audacity to ridicule Labour on the
>> economy!
>>

Have you heard of the defecit, that is the difference between what we owe and what we pay back so until the defecit is reduced to zero the borrowing will not reduce. It was the last Labour gov that allowed the defecit to get out of hand and we have been paying for it since. Osborne et al actually made a great job of treading the austerity /stimulous tightrope.
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
Yes, Labour caused the 2007-8 global financial crisis single handed. But for Gordon Brown BNPP would never have had to suspend its CDO funds, Bear Sterns, Lehman's, Fannie and Freddie would have been fine, Ireland and Greece would have been flying high.

I don't know whether Brown could have kept British banks out of the securitisation markets even if he had wanted to. I seriously doubt that a Conservative government would have acted any differently.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>> Yes, Labour caused the 2007-8 global financial crisis single handed. But for Gordon Brown BNPP
>> would never have had to suspend its CDO funds, Bear Sterns, Lehman's, Fannie and Freddie
>> would have been fine, Ireland and Greece would have been flying high.
>>
>> I don't know whether Brown could have kept British banks out of the securitisation markets
>> even if he had wanted to. I seriously doubt that a Conservative government would have
>> acted any differently.
>>

If RBS and HBOS were left to fail I expect we would be still trying to clear up the mess. I reckon the fallout would have been spectacular.

       
 Corbyn - Lygonos
We still are clearing up the mess.

Should've done an Iceland ;-)
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>>We still are clearing up the mess.

Not as bad as it could have been.

I was in a junior role in Germany and was put on a flight back home just before the RBS bailout happened and wasn't even working for them. My employer feared contamination and a potential run.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 3 Jun 17 at 00:19
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> Govt debt as a percentage of GDP in 2010 = 76%
>> Govt debt as a percentage of GDP in 2015 = 89%
>>
>> Average Govt debt between 1997 and 2009 (Labour years) was 42%.
>>
>> What amazes me is that the Conservatives have the audacity to ridicule Labour on the
>> economy!
>>

So I presume you think the debt is too high. Debt continues to grow each year that your budget is in deficit. How would you get the deficit and hence debt down? The Treasury can either raise taxes and/or cut spending to balance the budget. Would you prefer the Tories to have cut more, taxed more, or both?

Your figures are debt as a % of GDP. So the third option is to grow the economy at a faster pace than than the debt is growing in order to keep the % figure below that in 2010.
If you look at
visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-perspectives-trends-in-the-uk-economy/
you'll see that UK hasn't done too badly at all despite the shock of the 2008 recession when labour left the Treasury with a note to the Tories that "there is no money left". The UK's economy has defied many pundit's dire predictions over the lasst few years, jobs have kept growing despite Labour claiming in 2008/9 that under the Tories there would be more than a million additional job losses. UK's economy is so good that just in the last four years a net of more than a million immigrants have come to live and work here.
visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-perspectives-a-recent-history-of-international-migration/

I think the world's G7 economies - apart from Germany which may have done better - would be happy to have achieved what UK's economy has done in the last seven years. Germany has the advantage that it does not have to worry about nuclear or other defence spending as UK, France and USA take care of it for them.

For a historical record of budget deficits/surpluses, see
www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_deficit_analysis

The first tab there shows that contrary to popular belief, spending (as %of GDP) by the Tories has been higher each year than it was under Labour. The third tab shows how the deficit (i.e. Govt spending more than income) each year has been massive.

So, go on, zippy, tell us how you would balance the budget? Cut more, tax more, or both? How would you get the economy to grow even faster than it has done without increasing the debt?

      2  
 Corbyn - CGNorwich
"So, go on, zippy, tell us how you would balance the budget? Cut more, tax more, or both? How would you get the economy to grow even faster than it has done without increasing the debt?"

You have answered your own question. Abandon our absurd commitment to nuclear weapons and the pretense thet we ae some sort of superpower.


       
 Corbyn - sooty123
You have answered your own question. Abandon our absurd commitment to nuclear weapons and the
>> pretense thet we ae some sort of superpower.

I think we'd need a bit more money than that to balance the budget. I think they cost around £1-2 bn a year.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 3 Jun 17 at 08:55
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
>> You have answered your own question. Abandon our absurd commitment to nuclear weapons and the
>> pretense thet we ae some sort of superpower.
>>

Which is what I've said I would do in a previous post. see
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=24356&m=536082

As far I am aware, zippy posts problems but does not suggest how he would solve them himself.

Also, as sooty says, going non-nuclear does not on its own solve the problem

So how would you, CGNorwich, manage the economy and balance the budget?
      2  
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> As far I am aware, zippy posts problems but does not suggest how he would
>> solve them himself.

As somebody who posts blatant lies on here and fails to apologise or account for them you might want to be careful about criticising other members:

www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=24333&v=t
      1  
 Corbyn - Cliff Pope

>>
>> As far I am aware, zippy posts problems but does not suggest how he would
>> solve them himself.
>>


"To ask the right question is harder than to give the right answer"

Georg Cantor

Zippy is not asking the right question. I would suggest that perhaps it is something on the lines of
What is government debt?
How would you measure its size, and in relation to what?
Does its size matter?
Can it go on growing indefinitely?
What would be the consequences of letting it grow for ever?
If the consequences of reducing it were worse than those of letting it grow, should it still be reduced?

IF those are the right questions to ask, answering them, and zippy's question, would be relatively easy.
       
 Corbyn - Falkirk Bairn
Govt debt can grow as long as you keep paying the interest on time & their is cofidence in the future payments.

BUT

Like Credit Card Debt that grows & the day comes when it is out of hand.

Person I know 44 years old - married 18 years, good job, wife works, good job (£100K +between them slalary)
Suddenly announced that he needed help - turns out in CC debt, Loans, HP etc etc he owed £130,000!!

Nearly paid off house (7 years to go) taken out £200K mortgage over 25 years to clear his debts & leave £5K for a rainy day fund. He will be paying the mortgage until he is 69!!
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese
The defecit is the difference between what we borrow and what we pay back so until the defecit is zero borrowing will continue to grow.

We simply have to remove the defecit and control borrowing so it does not burden future generations.

And the only way to do that is via a strong economy.

And Corbyn and comrades have no idea how to sow the seeds and cultivate a strong economy.
       
 Corbyn - zippy
>>Corbyn and comrades have no idea how to sow the seeds and cultivate a strong economy.

I don't think the Conservatives do either.

On one hand, over inflated property prices are supporting our ability to borrow but are also diverting money from other areas of the economy such as investment in (manufacturing) business or even retail!
       
 Corbyn - Manatee

>> We simply have to remove the defecit and control borrowing so it does not burden
>> future generations.

Agreed, but it needs to include leasing/rental/PFI commitments which are really just hidden debt with large extra costs added on.

Household debt, corporate debt, and financial sector debt together dwarf public debt - that also needs to be dealt with and it will be painful - debt growth has fuelled house prices as well as unsustainable economic growth and unwinding that would hurt a lot of people. That may well happen in a disorderly way when interest rates rise.

>>
>> And the only way to do that is via a strong economy.
>>
>> And Corbyn and comrades have no idea how to sow the seeds and cultivate a
>> strong economy.

Repeating that endlessly does not make it true or relevant. Whoever is in power has access to the best advice from hundreds of civil servants with planet-sized brains. Nobody expects history graduate Rudd (tipped as the next Chancellor), geography graduate second class May, or Corbyn or McDonnell to do the sums or have all the answers. It goes wrong when the advice is bad or when they simply don't take it - perhaps for ideological reasons, being in thrall to big business (or unions), megalomania, or maybe having their eyes on post-Parliamentary careers.
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese

>>. Whoever is in power has
>> access to the best advice from hundreds of civil servants with planet-sized brains.>>

It's a matter of ethos and principal.

The socialist says - we need to spend loads on this and that, oh we haven't got enough money, let tax business and the rich, that didn't work, oh well it's election time again ...

The Conservative says - we need to stimulate the economy, great the tax revenues are rolling in, what shall we spend it on ...


>> maybe having their eyes
>> on post-Parliamentary careers.
>>

That's a tad unfare, most could earn a lot more outside of politics, most on all sides are in it cos they believe, though some are wrong on what they believe.
       
 Corbyn - Manatee

>> The socialist says - we need to spend loads on this and that, oh we
>> haven't got enough money, let tax business and the rich, that didn't work, oh well
>> it's election time again ...
>>
>> The Conservative says - we need to stimulate the economy, great the tax revenues are
>> rolling in, what shall we spend it on ...

They may be different breeds, but they are not different species. It was Conservatives who invented PFI so they could spend and pretend they weren't borrowing. New Labour took it up enthusiastically.

I would rather government borrowing at low rates for infrastructure than financially inefficient PFI and its descendents, whoever is in power.
       
 Corbyn - Roger.
My take on the Leaders.

1) May - Bulldust baffles brains, but probably the best option we have. Lord help us.
2) Corbyn - Sincere in his daft beliefs but a dangerous man for the UK.
3) Farron - Utter waster and political lightweight.
4) Sturgeon. Mad, bad and dangerous to know.
5) Nuttall - A walking charisma bypass.
6) The Aussie Green person. A crypto communist disguised as an environmental campaigner.
7) The Sinn Fein lot - Beyond the pale.
8) The Plaid Cymru lot. - Er, who?


      1  
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
Agree re Nuttal. Heard him again on Any Questions. He says the same bull locks as Nigel but without the ability to sound convincing.

Not sure why Sturgeon is either mad or bad either. FArron came over quite well in the debates. Corbyn is no more dangerous than any other Socialist. It's all about perspective.

The Aussie Green (who sounded more like a Kiwi) has been and gone. Caroline Lucas is British. There's not much more than a Rizla paper between Green, Labour and SNP in many areas of policy.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 3 Jun 17 at 16:21
       
 Corbyn - Roger.

>> The Aussie Green (who sounded more like a Kiwi) has been and gone. Caroline Lucas
>> is British. There's not much more than a Rizla paper between Green, Labour and SNP in many areas of policy. >>

Add: Trotskyists, S.P.G.B., Communist Party of G.B., S.W.P., Momentum. ........................
       
 Corbyn - Hard Cheese

>> I would rather government borrowing at low rates for infrastructure than financially inefficient PFI and
>> its descendents, whoever is in power.
>>

Agreed, PFI is OK in principal though there were bad deals done under Blair that we will be paying for for a while yet.

Borrowing for infrastructure makes some sense and provides some stimulous though much better to fund infrastructure out of a surplus.
       
 Corbyn - The Melting Snowman
>>Agreed, PFI is OK in principal [sic]

I would rather the Govt. borrowed the money and retained ownership of the asset.

The 'buy now pay later' deals between the Govt. and private companies on major projects seems particularly daft to me.
       
 Corbyn - zippy

>> The 'buy now pay later' deals between the Govt. and private companies on major projects
>> seems particularly daft to me.


Totally daft.

Govts like it because it doesn't count as borrowing in the normal sense of the word and keeps borrowing under the targets suggested (set) by the IMF.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Jun 17 at 20:00
       
 Corbyn - commerdriver
>> >> I would rather the Govt. borrowed the money and retained ownership of the asset.
>> >>
Part of the positive which both the major parties took from PFI apart from keeping borrowing off the books, was that it put management out to those, in general, who knew how to manage.

It is far from perfect but the principle, back in the 90s and 00s was that part of the payback came in better management of the "assets".

As someone used to say around here "Discuss"

Last edited by: commerdriver on Sun 4 Jun 17 at 10:16
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
It is far from perfect but the principle, back in the 90s and 00s was
>> that part of the payback came in better management of the "assets".
>>

I don't know about better management but from my experience there's definitely a lot more of it after something has been PFI'd.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
Without googling PFI crash and burn I can think of Metronet and Tube Lines (underground upgrade) and Huntingdon hospitals. If DVLA is part PFI then it may be a positive.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Out of the big English newspaper titles, what are the political leanings of their owners?
>> Which ones are Tory and which are Labour?

Article on editorial opinion for those papers that have 'declared' so far:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/which-parties-are-the-uk-press-backing-in-the-general-election

Interesting that Evening Standard has yet to say.........

Another piece records the Guardian's recommendations down the years:

www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2015/apr/13/general-election-guardian-editorials-1918-2010
       
 Corbyn - zippy
Perhaps Corbyn is right about the need to 20,000 more police officers!

Shame that Abbot can't keep her mouth shut re things she doesn't know about. She should have just said that she didn't know the exact figures but that they have been costed.

       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Shame that Abbot can't keep her mouth shut re things she doesn't know about. She
>> should have just said that she didn't know the exact figures but that they have
>> been costed.

As with JC's slip up on Womans Hour it's become fashionable for 'journalists' to boost their profile by asking about precise costs rather than actually focus on issues.

I suspect though that Abbot was too lazy to read her brief.
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
>> As with JC's slip up on Womans Hour it's become fashionable for 'journalists' to boost
>> their profile by asking about precise costs rather than actually focus on issues.


I doubt it works though. How many could name the journo that asked the question? I don't have the foggiest.
       
 Corbyn - smokie
Been saying to SWMBO that I reckon is unreasonable to expect anyone to remember all the detail of every single thing. It's all too easy to trip them up and make them look stupid, and the interviewer appear smart (which they are capable enough of doing on their own anyway!! :-) )
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut

>>
>> I doubt it works though. How many could name the journo that asked the question?
>> I don't have the foggiest.

I don't either but I bet it goes on her CV.
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
I don't either but I bet it goes on her CV.
>>

In a couple of weeks i doubt many will remember any of it at, takes all sorts i suppose.
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
>>In a couple of weeks i doubt many will remember any of it at

They will in the trade.
       
 Corbyn - madf
I recall Corby saying last yer he thought a "shoot to kill" policy on terrorists was a bad thing.

Man's a muppet..
       
 Corbyn - Manatee
>> I recall Corby saying last yer he thought a "shoot to kill" policy on terrorists
>> was a bad thing.

What's so muppety about that?
       
 Corbyn - Zero
>> >> I recall Corby saying last yer he thought a "shoot to kill" policy on
>> terrorists
>> >> was a bad thing.
>>
>> What's so muppety about that?

Well as he has just changed his mind, he thought so.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> I recall Corby saying last yer he thought a "shoot to kill" policy on terrorists
>> was a bad thing.
>>
>> Man's a muppet..

You recall of you've seen it quoted on social media today?

Like several of JC's 'sayings' high lighted by the Tories and their allies last week its inaccurate/incomplete and shorn of context. What he said was:

he was "not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general" and "the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing... I think that is quite dangerous and I think can often can be counterproductive"

Comment was made in aftermath of Paris shootings but before anything happened in UK. Aside from the stand out but egregious example of De Menezes the policy was highly controversial and probably counter productive in context of Northern Ireland:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-to-kill_policy_in_Northern_Ireland

       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Like several of JC's 'sayings' high lighted by the Tories and their allies last week
>> its inaccurate/incomplete and shorn of context. What he said was:
>>
>> he was "not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general" and "the idea you end
>> up with a war on the streets is not a good thing... I think that
>> is quite dangerous and I think can often can be counterproductive"


It gets better:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38666914
       
 Corbyn - BrianByPass
Jeremy Corbyn was forced to defend his past opposition to police shoot-to-kill

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/jeremy-corbyn-forced-defend-past-opposition-shoot-to-kill-policy/

This evening he reversed his controversial position, saying police must have “full authority” to use “whatever force is necessary to protect and save life.”

       
 Corbyn - Lygonos
There is a difference between shoot-to-kill and using proportionate force (which includes shoot-to-kill at times)
      2  
 Corbyn - Manatee

>> This evening he reversed his controversial position, saying police must have “full authority” to use
>> “whatever force is necessary to protect and save life.”

It wasn't a controversial position, the Telegraph etc making it out to be so does not make it true. Neither has Corbyn materially changed position.

The Conservatives and their masters are desperate to get any benefit they can from these terrorist incidents.
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R

>> The Conservatives and their masters are desperate to get any benefit they can from these
>> terrorist incidents.


I presume you include the words "and their masters" for some emotive reason? Presumably also the reason for your use of the word "desperate". How very 'Daily Mail' of you.

I am quite sure that is true. It is also true that Corbyn and his masters are desperate, That UKIP bloke and his masters and all the others and their masters.

Slinging a rock at the Conservatives and pretending that any politicians are different is disingenuous at best.
       
 Corbyn - sooty123
>> >>In a couple of weeks i doubt many will remember any of it at
>>
>> They will in the trade.
>>

Fair enough.
       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>> As with JC's slip up on Womans Hour it's become fashionable for 'journalists' to boost
>> their profile by asking about precise costs rather than actually focus on issues.

You can claim you'll do anything you like, but the money to do it has to come from somewhere and you have to know from where and how much. She was being asked to give the total figure, not the cost of the extra biros that would be needed and she should have at least been able to give that.

I'm not that far away from where I'd vote Labour again, even a left leaning one. But with the likes of Abbot probably ending up in the Cabinet there is no way.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Jun 17 at 20:00
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
>>She should have just said that she didn't know the exact figures but that they have been costed.

That wasn't really the problem, now was it!

It wasn't that she didn't know the exact figures, I would hardly expect her to. But she didn''t even know figures int eh same universe as reality. And that is unforgivable.

She came up with figures between £300,000 and £80m. Lets excuse the £300,000 as a cock up, so she corrected herself to £80m

The actual figure is £300m.

That's not "not knowing the exact figures", that's not having a the slightest clue or even the barest understanding!! She is so stupid she doesn't even know that she doesn't know.

Then she said she should be excused the mistake because she had already quoted the correct figures in 5 other interviews that day. That was an absolute lie.

She is not only incompetent, not only a liar, but actually stupid enough to make both obvious.

       
 Corbyn - Dutchie
Nervous tired and got mixed up.Call her stupid fair enough.

The younger generation will forgive her if they bother to vote.How long has she been a M.P? Her constituents must like her.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut

>> How long has she been
>> a M.P?

Since 1987

>> Her constituents must like her.

Hackney North is as ultra safe for LAbour as Daventry where I live is for the Tories.
       
 Corbyn - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>>
>> Hackney North is as ultra safe for LAbour as Daventry where I live is for
>> the Tories.
>>

Although it might sway a tight marginal I doubt if there are more than a handful of constituencies, if any, where the MP is elected because of a personal vote rather than a party one.
       
 Corbyn - Bromptonaut
>> Although it might sway a tight marginal I doubt if there are more than a
>> handful of constituencies, if any, where the MP is elected because of a personal vote
>> rather than a party one.

I'd go a bit further than a handful. A personal vote elected Douglas Carswell in 2015 and there are examples back to the seventies of majorities shrinking to marginal levels when respected long term members stand down. I'll bet that while new member for Manchester Gorton is elected with a massive majority, irrespective of national trends, it's less than Gerald Kaufman's.

Abbot though is in a London seat with massive floating population; proportion of current voters there in long term is probably less than most places.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jun 17 at 23:00
       
 Corbyn - No FM2R
>I doubt if there are more than a handful of constituencies, if any, where the MP is elected because of a personal vote rather than a party one.

I don't really know. But when one reads of an MP switching parties, or becoming independent, they seem to carry the seat with them quite often.
       
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