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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/22/manchester-arena-evacuated-reports-gunshots-explosion/
Fatalities reported on Sky.
Awful.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 25 May 17 at 10:23
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19 dead and at least 50 injured reported at 03.00.
How sad, how pointless.
Pat
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Yes, the first news to hit me this morning. Another idiot off to meet his virgins.
The world is so fragile and often so very sad.
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Awful. I stayed up watching Sky and Twitter til about 0100 but not much real news was coming out of it.
Twitter was an odd place. On the good side, there were local residents offering a landline, tea and a bed to any who needed it, and lifts out of town which I thought was magnificent. Also footage of stuff from people's phones, some of which eventually made it onto Sky news as a breaking item (e.g. a Bomb Disposal truck turning up). There was also a number of people asking for info on their loved ones.
Less good were the oddballs who clearly wanted to say something but had nothing of any value in their brain, but didn't let that stop them. And of course a handful who managed to make light of it (admittedly for some time there was some doubt over whether it was balloons bursting, a light popping or something worse), or try to start almost pedantic discussions. And of course at least one American who said something like Manchester, the ISIS capital of the UK, so what's the surprise.
Sky was it's usual self - slightly over excitable and breathless, prone to speculation, repeating the same footage over and over and asking dumb questions of eye witnesses. But to be fair I have no idea how such events could be covered better on live TV.
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I suppose I'm joining the keyboard warriors on this - social media is full of indignation - but events like this do stir the emotions.
This looks like a terrorist attack. If so it has been reiterated often enough that the U.K. risk status is "High", for a good while now.
What can be done? Is it the usual suspects?
I don't know, except to say I join those expressing horror and extending sympathy to the victims and families.
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>> What can be done?
Police intelligence system does link and track suspects. To prevent these types of attacks it could be necessary to lock suspects before they have actually committed any big crime. Even though it is possible to predict such terrorist action with high level of accuracy, the human rights brigade will not allow this to happen (especially when such suspects will come predominantly from one specific religious background).
So to minimize such attacks in future, steps could be:
To raise public awareness that it is possible to minimize probability of such attacks but then some specific group of people needs to be tracked/locked up.
Only politicians in power can do this. But this might affect their vote banks (from that community + liberals who can't see beyond their noses). Those politicians won't suffer because of their VIP security. They will then serve their duties by lighting candles and singing songs like we are not afraid etc.
Trump tried to address this and see how much backlash he faced.
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>> >> What can be done?
>>
>> Police intelligence system does link and track suspects. To prevent these types of attacks it
>> could be necessary to lock suspects before they have actually committed any big crime. Even
>> though it is possible to predict such terrorist action with high level of accuracy, the
>> human rights brigade will not allow this to happen (especially when such suspects will come
>> predominantly from one specific religious background).
>>
Internment without trial? While it has a populist appeal it's not exactly been a success tool against terrorism - see Northern Ireland. Inevitably many of those banged up are, or can be portrayed as, innocent. Real or perceived injustice is a damn good recruiting sergeant.
Terror groups are also pretty good at finding 'clean skins'.
And for the record this member of the 'human rights brigade' would be just as opposed to internment of Hindus or any other group.
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"this member of the 'human rights brigade'"
So, what do we do then?
We seem to have a very good intelligence set-up that says, after the event, 'yes - he was on our radar'. About as much use as a marzipan door-knocker.
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>> We seem to have a very good intelligence set-up that says, after the event, 'yes
>> - he was on our radar'. About as much use as a marzipan door-knocker.
>>
Though the relevant agencies need to have a certain level of concern and evidence to arrest or deport or whatever, they cannot act until they have the basis to do so.
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>> We seem to have a very good intelligence set-up that says, after the event, 'yes
>> - he was on our radar'. About as much use as a marzipan door-knocker.
The fact that these people have crossed security services radar may mean nothing more than their being peripheral associates of others of interest.
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>>
>>
>> The fact that these people have crossed security services radar may mean nothing more than
>> their being peripheral associates of others of interest.
>>
It is far more worrying for the security service if such a person was NOT on their radar. The fact that he was means they know where to start looking for his accomplices and also that there isn't a terrorist cell operating who have completely eluded them and may still be active.
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>> We seem to have a very good intelligence set-up that says, after the event, 'yes
>> - he was on our radar'. About as much use as a marzipan door-knocker.
>>
To be fair, barely a day goes by without a news item saying someone somewhere in the UK has been arrested before they've actually done anything, on suspicion of being about to.
Unless that's all just puff in the media to keep us mollified, or all the arrests are wrong, that seems like intelligence is in fact scoring hits.
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>> >> - he was on our radar'. About as much use as a marzipan door-knocker.
The number of people who can become suicide bombers (or do such serious crimes) is very low (may be just few hundreds). Based on intelligence data (e.g. people who have been to Syria, linked with hate preachers, shown disregard for believers of other religions etc. it is not overly difficult to generate a list of such people.
Suppose intelligence can list 5 people with 95% confidence that of 1 of them would blow up 20 people within next few months.
What do you do in this case?
1. Lock all 5 people behind bars.
2. Do nothing and light candles after one of them indeed blows up 20 people in a concert.
My choice would be option 1.
Read about some technological progress in following link (there are many other links on this topic)
www.scienceabc.com/innovation/future-of-policing-predicting-a-criminal-activity-before-it-happens.html
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What if the list is 10 people, confidence 50%, time period 5 years?
Or 100 people, confidence 10%, time period 20 years?
What threshold would you use?
How big do you want the jails to be?
How would you decide if someone should come off the list/leave jail.
Guantanamo has been a great PR and security win for the US, and I'm sure returns excellent value for money.
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>> What threshold would you use?
You decide, depending on how many Manchester/London/Nice etc. you would prefer to see.
>> How big do you want the jails to be?
Depends - they can either stay in UK jail or be a true jihadist in Middle East.
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It is obvious there is no easy answer. There are lots of people with clever questions here but they don't have any answers. When you strip out the hype the death toll of the Manchester bombing is less than an average weeks human roadkill in the UK. Terrorists live amongst us, we have to accept that occasionally they will succeed.
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>> death toll of the Manchester bombing is less than an average weeks human roadkill in the UK
While this is factually true, I think we are comparing apples with oranges here.
Killed in road = accidents, done by random people, event by chance
Killed by suicide bombers = deliberate activity by someone with an intention to kill/harm others, done by a small group of people with specific beliefs, event not by chance
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>> human roadkill
That is a truly offensive phrase!
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>> >> human roadkill
>>
>> That is a truly offensive phrase!
>>
Feel free to be as offended as you like. If you want to call it KSI it's nearer 500 a week.
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>>Killed in road = accidents, done by random people, event by chance
No.
If you kill someone chances are that you couldn't stop in time, which means you were either going too fast for the situation, or were not paying attention.
There are of course other instances such as a blow out causing a skid but I would like to see the stats on true accidents and other causes such as dangerous driving.
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>> Killed in road = accidents, done by random people, event by chance
>>
There is very little chance involved, a tiny minority of mechanical failures, mainly driver error.
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>> >> death toll of the Manchester bombing is less than an average weeks human roadkill
>> in the UK
>>
>> While this is factually true, I think we are comparing apples with oranges here.
>>
>> Killed in road = accidents, done by random people, event by chance
>>
>> Killed by suicide bombers = deliberate activity by someone with an intention to kill/harm others,
I disagree, they're all equally dead, and a fair few of those road deaths will be people who have died through no fault of their own, so both ways people have died due to the actions of others.
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>>Terrorists live amongst us, we have to accept that occasionally they will succeed
'tis a fair comment ON.
With respect to movilogo, internment isn't a great option and likely increases the risk of further radicalisation (see also N Ireland) and developing an 'them-and-us' mentality between even more moderate sections of society.
Being able to keep tabs on these 'high worth' individuals is the job of security services, and using the usual rule of law to catch and prosecute them especially before they commit a crime is ultimately the most effective deterrent, and thus preventative.
I expect the disappointment felt being (or seeing one of your buddies) banged up for 10 years for planning an attack is more dissuasive to copycats than the media frenzy and pseudo-glorification of pr1cks like the ones who slaughtered Fusilier Rigby, and the Manchester bomber.
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>>
>>
>> Suppose intelligence can list 5 people with 95% confidence that of 1 of them would
>> blow up 20 people within next few months.
>>
>>
And suppose that isn't even remotely possible?
Unless Mystic Meg has taken over the running of Mi5, that is.
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It's certainly not remotely measurable or provable even after the event, or non-event.
It would also probably be as expensive to lock people up as to monitor them sufficiently to find out what they are up to, who they meet with.
Difficult to think of any acceptable reasons to allow law enforcers/intelligence agencies to be judge and jury, let alone when the crime hasn't even been committed. But what would we expect the government to do if it had credible intelligence about a planned attack that could kill tens of thousands of people, for example?
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"But what would we expect the government to do if it had credible intelligence about a planned attack that could kill tens of thousands of people, for example?"
The answer would appear to be 'stock up with candles'.
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Arresting people on the grounds they might do something is a total non runner. Ordinary scrotes are sometimes tamed (I think) by the occasional random visit from plod, just to "see how they're getting on" (i.e. let them know they are not forgotten, and are being watched). Not sure the same would apply to the kind who perpetrate this kind of offence. As has been said, I think it's something we have to live with, while somehow working on the issues which give rise to the hatred.
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Mega snip quote!
>> 1. Lock all 5 people behind bars.
You can't lock people up for thought crimes in a democratic society.
You can't lock people up because they might do something.
If you go down that route then laws become ridiculous and you may as well start locking up poor people because they are more likely to shoplift or all car drivers because at some point they may run someone over accidently and going from - oh we will only lock up suspected terrorists will over time get diluted to: we will only lock up potential murders, then robbers, then thieves, then assaulters, speeders then Enemies of The State!
Perhaps that's the type of country you want to live in?
There are plenty like that around the world. Try Syria or North Korea for a change of climate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 24 May 17 at 20:16
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>> shown disregard for believers of other religions etc. it is not overly difficult to generate a list of such people.
I'm a Christian. I think that all other religions are fundamentally false as there is only one true God.
Should I be on that list and locked up then?
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You have highlighted the fundamental flaw in monotheism.
Rationalist Bertrand Russell said he was, in a philosophical sense, agnostic because he could not prove that god does not exist. But he also pointed out that he could be no more certain that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon etc. were not gods either. I don't see why that would have changed had he believed in the christian god.
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"You have highlighted the fundamental flaw in monotheism."
Someone (no idea who) pointed out that we are all fundamentally atheists.
There are 4200 religions on the planet, all with a god.
I, BBD the atheist, doesn't believe in 4200 gods.
Zippy, the Christian, doesn't believe the same (just one less than me).
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Wed 24 May 17 at 17:35
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>>Zippy, the Christian, doesn't believe the same (just one less than me).
Just making a point, lets move along here :-)
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>> I'm a Christian. I think that all other religions are fundamentally false as there is
>> only one true God.
>>
>> Should I be on that list and locked up then?
>>
I believe in fairies. I should be locked up.
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>> I should be locked up
You have convinced me! :-)
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>> Suppose intelligence can list 5 people with 95% confidence that of 1 of them would
>> blow up 20 people within next few months.
>>
>> What do you do in this case?
>>
>> 1. Lock all 5 people behind bars.
>> 2. Do nothing and light candles after one of them indeed blows up 20 people
>> in a concert.
Sounds like you have been watching Minority Report again.
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I'm with Bromp.
Internment without trial? Think that through. One day it may be you or yours imprisoned for what you were thinking, rather than what you did.
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>> Hindus
>>
? Whatsup?
You keep mentioning them every now and again.
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Police confirm a suicide bomber and people say there were nuts and bolts around the area. 23 deaths, that might increase with time.
I heard the sirens last night but my daughter works day shifts so I guess she may be busy today with hospital transfers and the like. I was somewhat worried that my 12 yr old grand-daughter would be there but her mum couldn't get the time off so they went to the gig at Birmingham last week. I friend was there last night but was reported to be ok.
Another sad b****** loser Sympathies to all and good on the hotel next door which took in lots of kids last night.
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First thoughts are that the perpetrator may have exploited a weak point. That being whilst there are security processes in place on entry and during an event at the end its a case of opening the exits for the mass exodus. This may have facilitated unrestricted entry.
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Just talking to SWM's ex employer who was at the arena waiting to collect his daughter. He says there were two 'bangs ' , as does another waiting dad on TV. Daughter fine and at home now.
Police arrested a 23 yr old in our local cafe, about 150 yds from here. No details yet but I'm sure the Manchester Evening News will give us all the gen in due course.
Out and about this morning, the City has a certain ' numbness ' about it.
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Dreadful.
One thing I don't understand. What sort of parent allows their children (I had imagined sixth formers, but it turns out they are much younger than that, one victim was 8) to be out at 10.30pm on a school night?
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My children were not routinely up at 10.30 at night on any night, never mind a school night.
But for something special, why not? At age 5 one of them was up all night lambing and eventually fell asleep around 4.00am in the corner of the barn.
Bed times are not decreed from upon high you know.
A strange thing to struggle with at any time, never mind in this context.
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I see Take That have cancelled a gig tonight in Liverpool out of respect.
I do understand that, and I am not trying to be heartless but I can' convince myself that that was necessary. It will disappoint many fans, and could disrupt plans and involve additional costs for people (and of course infrastructure and supporting services), even though they will no doubt re-schedule it.
If it had been at the MEN that's obviously a different matter...
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A tragedy for all those concerned in any way and a warning that constant vigilance is needed, but the massive over-reaction by the media has proved to those of a similar mindset that such attacks are worth carrying out. It is publicity and the spread of fear they are after, and that is exactly what they are getting. Endless repeating of the same old video footage over and over again, TV and radio programs rescheduled to allow extended news coverage all wheeling out the same old "Experts" one after the other to explain exactly what we already know.
A calm, rational approach to these incidents without going overboard is the best approach to terrorists, all the outrage, hand wringing and candle lit vigils are exactly what the terrorists want, and that is exactly what we are giving them. It is about time we stepped back and looked at the way we deal with things like this because at the moment we are allowing the likes of ISIS to dictate the pattern of the game.
It won't happen though because nothing sells papers or ups viewing figures like bad news, my shop will no doubt receive a 30% increase in newspaper allocation in the morning, all trying to outdo each others lurid headlines.
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>>
>> terrorists, all the outrage, hand wringing and candle lit vigils are exactly what the terrorists
>> want, and that is exactly what we are giving them.
>>
It is too late. The enemy is within and can never be stopped. I know first hand the hatred of the West that is preached to them, and how the moderates are cowed by fear from stopping the extremists in their midst.
Their cause is unstoppable in our society where we value our free press, free media, free social networks, and freedom of speech.
The solution is to accept that these type of atrocities are a new normal, and Keep Calm and Carry On.
There will be outrage, and wall to wall coverage on Sky/BBC for 24 hours, after which they will forget it all and get back to other "breaking news".
At least Sky/BBC didn't have an "expert" such CNN’s Paul Cruickshank. After suggesting evidence of a suicide bomber as culprit to the horrible attack, Cruickshank went out of his way to remind viewers that there may be other explanations behind the attack. “It must also be noted that in recent months in Europe, there’s been a number of false flag plots where right wing have been trying to blame Islamists for terrorism.â€
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>> It is publicity and the spread of fear they are after, and that is exactly what they are getting.
I know its on a total different level but several years ago the TV companies all agreed that when any idiot fans ran onto a football pitch they would not show the person and this not give them any publicity.
Bombers should be the same, dont name them, dont let them be heroes. However in this day and age that is practically impossible. And if it was the guy that lived next door to you, would you not want to know!
Find it quite ironic all the ones who want to "send them home" and keep Britain for Brits etc. If we hadnt meddled in other peoples wars, sending "our boys" in to be killed themselves, then there is a possibility that we might not be in this situation.
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>>I see Take That have cancelled a gig tonight in Liverpool out of respect.
Out of respect? Giving the terrorists what they want? More disruption to people's lives? Its either grandstanding or its fear that the media might pick on them.
What it is not is out of any respect.
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>> >>I see Take That have cancelled a gig tonight in Liverpool out of respect.
>>
>> Out of respect? Giving the terrorists what they want? More disruption to people's lives? Its
>> either grandstanding or its fear that the media might pick on them.
>>
>> What it is not is out of any respect.
Absolutely, They have now become "the band that gave the terrorist everything they wanted.
Pathetic idiots.
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I wonder how many people who were due to go to Take That are thinking "thank goodness they have made that decision because I was really wary about going after what happened last night, as were my parents etc"
They have made the decision easier for the fans. There was possibly police advice in the decision as well. If the police are still trying to find out if he was a lone worker or what then it makes sense.
What if there had been another incident at TT and it then transpired that there was a link between the two? Police would get slaughtered.
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>> I wonder how many people who were due to go to Take That are thinking
>> "thank goodness they have made that decision because I was really wary about going after
>> what happened last night, as were my parents etc"
>>
>>
>>
The safest place on the planet tonight would have been the Take That concert. The venue would have been crawling with armed police, both uniformed and plain clothes.
It wasn't me who gave you the frownie, BTW. I don't do them.
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>>The safest place on the planet tonight would have been the Take That concert.
I get that. I still wouldn't have wanted my daughter to go to it.
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>
>> The safest place on the planet tonight would have been the Take That concert. The
>> venue would have been crawling with armed police, both uniformed and plain clothes.
Indeed, my sister in laws young daughter has tickets for Ariana Grande at the O2 later this week. As said, if the concert goes ahead, it will be as safe as houses.
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"They have made the decision easier for the fans."
Those who criticise Take That should think about it ........ they were damned if they did, and damned if they didn't.
But then, there are some very stupid and fickle people - the same twerps who were criticising Theresa May for not holding an election were criticising her again 6 months later for holding one.
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>>Those who criticise Take That should think about it
If they had stood up and said "we don't want to take the risk" or "we're worried about safety" then whilst I would not have agreed with the action, it wouldn't have had the same negative impact as the sanctimonious lie of "Out of respect for....".
That's just trying to put themselves on a pedestal.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 23 May 17 at 21:12
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the sanctimonious lie of "Out of respect
>> for....".
>>
>> That's just trying to put themselves on a pedestal.
>>
I don't know, it's not beyond to imagine they genuinely think it an act of respect?
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I'm not so sure ISIL are sat in raqqa ticking a box because of the cancellation of the take that concert. Especially not the people who commit the acts, they are after killing people and little else. I don't think they are overly concerned about peripheral issues such as this.
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>> I'm not so sure ISIL are sat in raqqa ticking a box because of the
>> cancellation of the take that concert. Especially not the people who commit the acts, they
>> are after killing people and little else. I don't think they are overly concerned about
>> peripheral issues such as this.
Terror and fear* is what Terrorists are all about, you can't do that if people shrug their shoulders, stick fingers up and carry on with life, or even revel in adversity.
*why do they want that is the question. Loads of reasons, but whats the end game? I'll leave you to work that out, and why we are pawns in that game.
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> Terror and fear* is what Terrorists are all about, you can't do that if people
>> shrug their shoulders, stick fingers up and carry on with life, or even revel in
>> adversity.
Its a little simplistic, there can be many motivations behind a persons actions. Simply killing people can be enough motivation for some.
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Agreed. And the motivations of the suicide bomber are entirely different to those elsewhere in the chain.
But one way or another, "impact" is what they are all looking for.
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>> Agreed. And the motivations of the suicide bomber are entirely different to those elsewhere in
>> the chain.
Indeed some can be pushed into actions but the motivation to carry that out can be different depending on your position. Of course though there are those with no others involved.
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>> Its a little simplistic, there can be many motivations behind a persons actions. Simply killing
>> people can be enough motivation for some.
Not really, you dont just "simply" kill someone, let alone in a publicly globally spectacular and suicidal manner. All killers have motives.
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> Not really, you dont just "simply" kill someone, let alone in a publicly globally spectacular
>> and suicidal manner. All killers have motives.
>>
Oh they have a motivation, i wouldn't suggest that they don't.
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"Out of respect? Giving the terrorists what they want? More disruption to people's lives? Its either grandstanding or its fear that the media might pick on them.
What it is not is out of any respect."
Reminds me about that little girl who was killed in Drayton Manor on the water flume a couple of weeks ago. They closed it for two days and the spokesman called it "out of respect". What utter shank. Closed it while they concocted some ironclad culpability-free evidence for their conduct more like.
And it's the same with Take That. Screw it all up for thousands of people who've paid seventy-odd quid to see them and call it respect. Two minutes of silence or waving your lighter in the air is all it takes. They should grow a pair and show some defiance. Limp-wristed woosies.
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>>Limp-wristed woosies
So while the govt is saying that the risk is critical, and there might be imminent threats, you reckon TT, their advisors or whoever are wooses for not continuing? I agree giving the respect line is out of order but I wouldnt be surprised if this decision was at the request of the police.
If they publicly said the police advise us not to go ahead, then that would create more panic etc. However by doing what they did I think the police would be happy. One less headache to deal with when they are stretched.
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Did I paid respect on 7/7 by not getting on a bus or tube for a few weeks? Do me a lemon.
Yeah, woosies.
Oh, they said out of respect, not because risk is critical.
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Tue 23 May 17 at 23:26
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>>But for something special,
Was it....?
>> why not?
Because it's not fair on the school to have sleeping children in the corner of the classroom. I imagine that your lamb didn't go to school the following day?
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>>But for something special,
>
>Was it....?
Special enough for them. Terrible how it has worked out though.
>> why not?
>
>Because it's not fair on the school to have sleeping children in the corner of the classroom
Don't you feel you might be just going a little OTT on this? Do you have children?
"what sort of parent..." you asked.
My sort, is the answer.
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"Was it....?"
I've flown to another country to see a concert. Course it's special.
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Tue 23 May 17 at 16:12
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>> >> why not?
>>
>> Because it's not fair on the school to have sleeping children in the corner of
>> the classroom. I imagine that your lamb didn't go to school the following day?
Funnily enough those lambs will probably go on to university, becoming rounded, better personality and more useful human beings than you.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 23 May 17 at 16:57
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>> Because it's not fair on the school to have sleeping children in the corner of
>> the classroom. I imagine that your lamb didn't go to school the following day?
If, and it's a big if, a kid who's had a one off late night has a one off 'dozy' day then it's no big thing.
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>> Dreadful.
>>
>> One thing I don't understand. What sort of parent allows their children (I had imagined
>> sixth formers, but it turns out they are much younger than that, one victim was
>> 8) to be out at 10.30pm on a school night?
>>
This was a signer from a TV show popular with kids.
Interviewees have said tickets were a very special gift, like Christmas or Birthday presents. They certainly didn't give the impression that they were frivolous regular purchases.
Taking them gives them new experiences and good experiences make for a more rounded individual.
We certainly need more rounded individuals.
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www.bbc.com/news/uk-40011977
A slightly brighter side, if there is one.
People helping people.
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>>A calm, rational approach to these incidents without going overboard is the best approach to terrorists, all the outrage, hand wringing and candle lit vigils are exactly what the terrorists want, and that is exactly what we are giving them. It is about time we stepped back and looked at the way we deal with things like this because at the moment we are allowing the likes of ISIS to dictate the pattern of the game.<<
What he says. What happened to 'keep calm and carry on'?
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We should play by their rules in the UK as I suspect (and hope) we do on their patch. If Bromp doesn't like it he could always become a missionary in Mosul.
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So you want to be the same as them?
Why should Bromp make allowances for that?
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Are you prepared to go to Mosul to discuss the error of their ways with them? If not keep your do goodery to yourself.
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>> Are you prepared to go to Mosul to discuss the error of their ways with
>> them? If not keep your do goodery to yourself.
It was going to Mosul that helped caused the problem, the error was ours.
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>> If not keep your do goodery to yourself.
So you see behaving the same way as them utterly correct when its you retaliating, but not when its them retaliating?
Hmm, that is exactly the approach that lies at the bottom of these problems.
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>> We should play by their rules in the UK as I suspect (and hope) we
>> do on their patch.
Could you be more explicit about what you mean by play by their rules in the UK?
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Let's just say if it wasn't for the PC brigade our law enforcement could be far more effective. If you make life so difficult for any one they will go and live somewhere else. Giving suspected terrorists housing, benefits, free medical treatment, etc must make them think we are stupid.
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One of the missing is/was a friend of my youngest step-son.
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Seems the bomber was a 22 year old born and bred Manchunian. If you want to play by their rules, you'll have to go and live in Mosul for 22 years.
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>> Seems the bomber was a 22 year old born and bred Manchunian. If you want
>> to play by their rules, you'll have to go and live in Mosul for 22
>> years.
>>
The Telegraph:
Abedi was born in Manchester in 1994, the second youngest of four children. His parents were Libyan refugees who came to the UK to escape the Gaddafi regime.
The Guardian:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/manchester-arena-attacker-named-salman-abedi-suicide-attack-ariana-grande
Even before Abedi was named, several members of south Manchester’s Libyan community wondered whether the suicide bomber was one of their own: perhaps one of the young men who had fought in Libya during the 2011 revolution, some of whom came home traumatised and angry.
But none appear to have suspected that British-born Abedi – a slightly withdrawn, devout young man, always respectful to his elders – would become a mass murderer.
“Salman? I’m astonished by this,†one member of Manchester’s Libyan community told the Guardian. “He was such a quiet boy, always very respectful towards me. His brother Ismail is outgoing, but Salman was very quiet. He is such an unlikely person to have done this.â€
Salman and his brother Ismail worshipped at Didsbury mosque, where their father, who is known as Abu Ismail within the community, is a well-known figure. “He used to do the five and call the adhan. He has an absolutely beautiful voice. And his boys learned the Qur’an by heart.
Mohammed Saeed, the imam of Didsbury Mosque and Islamic Centre, said Salman Abedi had looked at him “with hate†after he gave a sermon criticising Isis and Ansar al-Sharia in Libya.
Saeed said he gave a strong sermon against terrorism and about the sanctity of life in 2015. He said 2,000 members of the mosque were with him; a small number were not; and a few signed a petition criticising him.
“Salman showed me a face of hate after that sermon,†he said. “He was showing me hatred.â€
Saeed said a friend was so worried that he got his adult children to sit beside Salman Amedi in case he attacked the imam.
Saeed, who was born in Libya and came to the UK in 1980, said he was worried he would be labelled a “snitchâ€. But he said: “I have to speak out to protect our community, to protect innocent people.â€
Didsbury mosque, he said, was a moderate place that welcomed Muslims from Arabia, Africa, Asia and Europe. It also had new converts and held an open day once a week for non-Muslims to learn more about the mosque.
However, there were other problems in the Manchester Libyan community.
Abdalraouf Abdallah, 24, was jailed for nine and a half years last year after being convicted of funding terrorism and preparing acts of terrorism. Abdallah had helped a number of men travel to Syria so they could fight in the civil war. He was unable to travel himself because he is paralysed from the waist down after being shot during the Libyan revolution.
One of the people he helped to send to Syria was Stephen Gray, who had converted to Islam after leaving the air force in 2004. He was jailed for nine years after pleading guilty to terrorist offences.
The family friend said Abedi and Abdallah knew each other: “All the Libyan lads in Manchester know each otherâ€. That relationship will come under renewed scrutiny by the police and MI5.
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Unfortunately this type of terrorist attack touches many, many people even if only lightly. Unfortunately some will support legal aid for any accomplices. We are actively supporting and funding terrorists in the UK with our taxpayers money. The terrorists and their supporters must be falling around in hysterics.
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So if you are accused of a terrorism related offense then you are not entitled to legal aid?
What happens if a poor person, and perhaps an innocent person, is accused of terrorism? In your world that's simply their hard luck?
Or in your mind is the simple accusation of terrorism sufficient for punishment?
Would you feel the same if someone innocent close to you was accused?
nb: I am assuming that within legal aid you are talking about free defense lawyers?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 23 May 17 at 20:07
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>> Would you feel the same if someone innocent close to you was accused?
>>
Fortunately no one close to me is a mass murderer of terrorist, law enforcement have enough people to keep tabs on without bothering Joe public. When did you last have your front door kicked in by armed police?
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>> Fortunately no one close to me is a mass murderer of terrorist, law enforcement have
>> enough people to keep tabs on without bothering Joe public. When did you last have
>> your front door kicked in by armed police?
I had my front door kicked in by HM Customs, Does that count?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 23 May 17 at 20:17
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>> I had my front door kicked in by HM Customs,
You live in a rough area.
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>> Fortunately no one close to me is a mass murderer of terrorist, law enforcement have
>> enough people to keep tabs on without bothering Joe public. When did you last have
>> your front door kicked in by armed police?
Nobody innocent is ever accused of terrorist offences?
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But we're not talking of people found guilty of being a mass murdering terrorist. In your world simply being accused is sufficient.
So if I accuse you, and the police believe me and arrest you, and then deny you any legal assistance, are you still ok with that? Or do you simply think that's how *other* people should be treated?
What happens if someone close to you, and innocent, is accused of terrorism? Still happy?
>>When did you last have your front door kicked in by armed police?
About 19 years go.
Why?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 23 May 17 at 20:19
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>> About 19 years go.
>>
>> Why?
>>
Yes, the question is: Why?
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>> >> Would you feel the same if someone innocent close to you was accused?
>> >>
>>
>> Fortunately no one close to me is a mass murderer of terrorist, law enforcement have
>> enough people to keep tabs on without bothering Joe public. When did you last have
>> your front door kicked in by armed police?
>>
Errm, woken in the early hours by a battering ram thing knocking out my front door, having been fitted up by a multinational bank with the help of a friendly police force, even with legal aid I was out of pocket by enough to have a very different lifestyle. (They stole from me and I had the audacity to complain.)
Very close and totally harmless friend, his wife and his primary school aged young children woken up in the early hours by a phone call and searchlight and armed police, ordered out of the house in night clothes and made to lie in the street. Someone had nicked his car and committed an armed robbery with the victim being hurt. His kids are now in their late 20's and the real scrote is still doing time!
Good thing we have the rule of law and human rights or he could easily be doing life for a crime he didn't commit.
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>> Let's just say if it wasn't for the PC brigade our law enforcement could be
>> far more effective. If you make life so difficult for any one they will go
>> and live somewhere else. Giving suspected terrorists housing, benefits, free medical treatment, etc must make
>> them think we are stupid.
The key word there is suspected. Would you withdraw housing etc from people suspected of lesser or indeed any offences?
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>> Let's just say if it wasn't for the PC brigade our law enforcement could be
>> far more effective.
No let's not just say that. Why don't you spell exactly what you want our police force to do that they are unable to do at present.
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>>One of the people he helped to send to Syria was Stephen Gray, who had converted to Islam after leaving the air force in 2004. He was jailed for nine years after pleading guilty to terrorist offences.
Maybe we should send all ex-forces away as well??
I don't agree with ON but I kind of understand what he is trying to say. Which surprises me. We are funding terrorists by giving them housing benefits? What about all the terrorists we have funded in foreign countries? What about all the innocent civilians , kids that have been bombed?
On a local level I have shop managers who complain about the shoplifters that come in that are of eastern european appearance, more so recently. However in my 25 years of retail, there has always been shoplifters. For some reason a Glaswegian jakey shoplifter doesnt seem to cause them the same concern.
As been said many times before, it is very difficult to protect against suicide bomber attacks. I dont live in London but I would guess at every London tube station, and many train platforms, there would be enough bystanders to have the same effect as last night. Possibly every bus in London too like 7/7?
You simply cannot prevent this happening.
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>> Let's just say if it wasn't for the PC brigade our law enforcement could be
>> far more effective.
...on the other hand, if the self-styled "non-PC" had their way, Britain could become much more like the Middle East.
(or East Germany; bring back the Stasi, I say! ;-) )
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>> (or East Germany; bring back the Stasi, I say! ;-) )
If my neighbour was half way attractive I'd quite like to spy on her, but as it is, the East German method holds no attractions.
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>> If my neighbour was half way attractive I'd quite like to spy on her, but
>> as it is, the East German method holds no attractions.
>>
....reciprocal thinking hasn't deterred her....... ;-)
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>> ....reciprocal thinking hasn't deterred her....... ;-)
Jezuz, what a horrible thought.
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>> We should play by their rules in the UK as I suspect (and hope) we
>> do on their patch. If Bromp doesn't like it he could always become a missionary
>> in Mosul.
Meaning you think we are bombing people willy nilly or something else?
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>> Meaning you think we are bombing people willy nilly or something else?
Yeah we did, you can ask Tony Blair and Bush II why, cos no-one else can come up with a good reason.
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Exactly - we go to other countries and bomb them so why shouldn't they come to us and do the same?
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And why on earth did we think they wouldn't??
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.â€
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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>>
>> >> Meaning you think we are bombing people willy nilly or something else?
>>
>> Yeah we did, you can ask Tony Blair and Bush II why, cos no-one else
>> can come up with a good reason.
>>
I was asking ON if he thought we used similar tactics in mosul. In the sense of being indiscriminate.
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Explosions Reported at Manchester Arena - Pat
