Having waited in the northbound queue for nearly an hour today I don't think there is any doubt a new crossing is needed. Anyone have any thoughts on the route?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-39575467
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Doesn't look like a great alternative for people simply wanting to use the M25, it only really works if you are using the A13 and M25 southern section in either direction or area heading to (and from) southern Essex from Kent.
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You need one of these. :-)
www.forth-bridges.co.uk/queensferry-crossing/about.html
Or one of these.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39578616
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 12 Apr 17 at 18:26
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No point at all - it'll only clog up soon enough.
In the late 1980s I travelled North through the Dartford Tunnel daily in the mornings and returning southbound after work. Over the years the queue at the tunnel southbound grew ever longer and often it started at the A127 Basildon turn off meaning a 45 minute crawl. Many times I'd head south instead via Blackwall or even Tower Bridge.
We need a new bridge at Dartford they said - they built one and over a decade the jams and queues are now back to where they were around 1990.
Build a new tunnel there and by 2027 it'll jam up too.
If they want to waste money and build a new Thames crossing then one midway between Blackwall and Dartford would be (briefly) more useful for the locals.
I don't know what we're going to do in this country to alleviate road congestion but building more roads isn't going to help much. There is something to be said for allowing existing jams to modify driver behaviour; it's that or just paving over the busier parts of the country.
Speaking of modifying behaviour - I learn that the A31 is now the new M3 as that many regulars have abandonded the motorway for a quicker route.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate II on Wed 12 Apr 17 at 18:24
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Call me picky - isn't this a motoring topic ?
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...I think the original post came about because he wasn't motoring.....
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>> Call me picky - isn't this a motoring topic ?
>>
Yes, but wasn't motoring much when in the queue!
I think the idea is to remove pressure on the Dartford crossing by providing an alternative route from the North to the Channel ports. I think I am broadly in favour.
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>> No point at all - it'll only clog up soon enough.
>> I don't know what we're going to do in this country to alleviate road congestion
>> but building more roads isn't going to help much.
So we'll stick with your "do nothing and moan" approach then.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 12 Apr 17 at 18:47
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. . . I'm not moaning.
Nor did I say do nothing - I said I don't know what to do.
Maybe we want Singapore style road pricing, maybe Tokyo style permission to have a private parking place before you can purchase a car, maybe drive alternate days only, maybe shared (i.e. no driver only) car journeys only allowed, maybe a dedicated roll on roll off train service for trucks between north of London and Dover, maybe bring about a more local life style - like we had 50 years ago - work around the corner (or from home for many, but not bricklayers and plumbers I'll grant you), shop local. Maybe free public transport - my free TFL pass throughout London has certainly modified my behaviour and cut down my driving by as much as perhaps half.
Maybe stop the lunancy of Scottish Spring water being transported to the South East of England
It's off the wall, 'unthinkable' plans we need and not more b***** roads, bridges and tunnels.
The M3 is soon the be a 'smart' motorway with 4 lanes and no hard shoulder - is that going to solve problems in that part of the country ? Maybe it will for 5 years and then what ?
I did not and do not say 'do nothing'. What's your plan then ?
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate II on Wed 12 Apr 17 at 19:09
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>>No point at all - it'll only clog up soon enough.
Entirely agree.
There is utterly no point in building more roads, that is simply taking pain killers with a broken leg. We to do different stuff...
I'll add to your suggestions;
Add a zero to the congestion charge
Grant no more planning permission for car parks within the M25, even for Tesco
Tax businesses on the number of miles their employees commute.
Significantly reduce VAT & council tax for companies with less than 20 employees
Significantly increase council tax for any business with more than 20 parking spaces
Introduce car pool lanes
Introduce tolls
Tax products on a sliding scale dependent on transport miles.
Introduce Motorway tolls which make the rush hour very expensive to drive
more to follow.....
1 - 2 years of chaos, and then stuff will start to sort itself out...
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We probably have enough rules, tolls, taxes and bans to be going on with. Not sure we need more of those. What is required is making reliable and sufficient public transport readily available at affordable prices and encouraging people to use it.
There is some really scary data around suggesting that some huge percentage of car journeys are in effect for distances that could easily be walked and certainly cycled.
No wonder the nation has an obesity problem.
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>> 1 - 2 years of chaos, and then stuff will start to sort itself out...
>>
The sorting itself out will take longer than 1-2 years, specially if you add trying to get out of your deliberately created deep financial recession
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>>The sorting itself out will take longer than 1-2 years
I doubt it very much.
.*******
Its environments where the demand is artificial that are delicate.
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I would be interested to see what the overall cost would be to just make public transport free in Cities. There would obviously need to be rules of where boundaries start etc but I think most cities in effect have their own boundaries.
There is a lot of public grants go into funding the public transport, add in the costs of the staffing and infrastructure needed for the maintenance of the fairs etc and you never know, the advantages might be worth it.
For London , the fare income is less than 50% of the total cost it takes to run the system.
tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-are-funded
Alternatively, is there a half way point whereby if public transport costs were reduced, more drivers would leave their cars behind? In London is there any more scope for more buses, tube etc or is it already running at saturation point? I dont know!
I am not long back from Poland where they have an excellent tram and rail system in Krakpw and the costs on the train, if I picked it up correctly, seem to be based on how many miles your journey is. As in a set cost per mile.
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im not sure how much of the traffic through The Dartford crossing is local but it is a main arterial route for much of the countries trade. A good proportion of all transport for the channel crossings is passing through there and whilst it is possible that various measures discussed could reduce traffic levels I cannot see a realistic alternative to another crossing if trade is to continue to flourish.
The level of traffic at Dartford is near saturation and the alternative route proposed seem the most sensible solution.
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>
>> I did not and do not say 'do nothing'. What's your plan then ?
Build more roads and bridges, give you something to moan about if nothing else.
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To be negative, a destroyer and a critic is dumb and so very easy and are acts of moments.
To be positive, and a creator takes intellect, time and passion.
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You think that you whining about a perfectly sound sensible transport suggestion gives you intellect and makes you a creator?
Nah sorry, someone who even whines about it being in the wrong part of the forum, really has no right to that badge.
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How about if I whine about spurious commas, that must make me some kind of hero, surely?
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>> How about if I whine about spurious commas, that must make me some kind of
>> hero, surely?
You are already a hero in my eyes, so you need say no more.
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>> Nah sorry, someone who even whines about it being in the wrong part of the
>> forum, really has no right to that badge.
>>
I think you should have slept on that response, as a good whine often improves with age.......
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Nihil = Nothing = Zero
Nihilism - look it up.
Goodnight
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>> Maybe stop the lunancy of Scottish Spring water being transported to the South East of
>> England
>>
Ye gods, have you tasted London water?
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It gets tasted several times over I've heard.
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Ah that old chestnut. Just not true I'm afraid.
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So what is done to it to develop its foul taste?
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It doesn't
Perhaps it's your own bitterness at being forced to live in that cultural wasteland north of the border that you are tasting.
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Your in depth ignorance and prejudice is shining brightly.
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Wow this has all turned a bit nasty hasn't it? I'm happy to stand corrected if my impression that London recycles its water is wrong. But I would in turn suggest that such a description of Scotland is also inaccurate.
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No doubt true but I never got over the stultifying tedium of having been seconded to the Perth office for six months in the Perth office many years ago. It's no doubt stopped raining now and got a bit warmer as well :-)
Its nice enough for a holiday in the summer though.
If money were no object though and I could afford a house in the centre I would live in London. Why would anyone not?
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Poor Thames crossings?
Not to mention horrendous traffic, pollution, and population density.
Would people banished to London from your Perth office feel any different?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 09:46
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>> If money were no object though and I could afford a house in the centre
>> I would live in London. Why would anyone not?
>>
....easy. Because, under these circumstances, I could afford to buy a house in almost any of the much more attractive places to live in the UK
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>> If money were no object though and I could afford a house in the centre
>> I would live in London. Why would anyone not?
Where do I start. Much rather live somewhere with hills, forests etc. Possibly a remote part of Scotland.
If money seriously no issue then a 'pied a terre' in Holborn area would be OK for visits etc.
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"If money were no object though and I could afford a house in the centre I would live in London. Why would anyone not?"
I've often pondered this one.
At present I live in Hertfordshire. I value its proximity to London - I can be in the centre in little more than an hour by public transport and I take advantage of the cultural offerings there: the British Museum, Royal Academy, South Bank, Royal Albert Hall are among venues recently visited. I wouldn't want to lose that.
I'm aware that northern cities are by no means cultural deserts - my daughter lives in Newcastle and elder son in Leeds, and I'm always struck by the vibrancy of these places. I can't speak for Scotland, but it's probably true there as well.
However, the super-saturation of road traffic in the London area (even well outside the M25) is appalling - local traffic as well as motorways. I say that, even though I can avoid the rush hours most of the time. And the air quality is pretty poor too.
Fortunately I'm within easy reach of some glorious countryside - the Chiltern Hills, for example, where the traffic thins out and the air smells sweet.
Live in London? No thanks. I'm near enough, thank you.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 10:11
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>>If money seriously no issue then a 'pied a terre' in Holborn area would be OK for visits etc.
In my experience it doesn't work as well as you'd think. I always prefer to be at one of them rather than the other, and if they are within relatively easy reach of each other then one ends up using one of them the minimum possible. To the point that one then rather wonders why have it rather than using a hotel on the rare occasions....
Rental cars versus second cars if you like.
It works considerably better, actually really quite well, if the properties are not within reach of each other; different countries for example. Then its good and infinitely better than hotels or other alternatives. There are many benefits.
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>> It doesn't
>> Perhaps it's your own bitterness at being forced to live in that cultural wasteland
>> north of the border that you are tasting.
>>
The reason I didn't reply to this post yesterday evening was we were at a music concert at the Carnegie hall in Dunfermline.
www.onfife.com/venues/carnegie-hall
Perth is only an hour from Edinburgh, plenty of theaters there, maybe culture is not your thing. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 10:18
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>> Ah that old chestnut. Just not true I'm afraid.
>>
There is a finite. supply of water on this planet, always has been
I expect over multiple millennia every drop has probably been through several "cycles"
Busy places probably more than most.
Incidentally, first post with my mew MacBook
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Yes there is of course a water cycle. The stuff evaporates and falls as rain. There is however an urban myth that in London somehow the water is extracted from the Thames, drunk, passes through the human body, re- enters the Thames and is once more extracted for the water supply
Most of the London water supply does indeed come from the upper reaches of the the Thames but there is no sewage outlet above any of the abstraction points. The water supplied to London is as clean and pure as anywhere in the U.K.
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>> Most of the London water supply does indeed come from the upper reaches of the
>> the Thames but there is no sewage outlet above any of the abstraction points.
>>
I'd be interested to know where the abstraction points are (Somewhere above the tidal limit at least? Reasonably close to the main reservoirs?).
There may be no (intended) raw sewage outlets upstream, but there are numerous treated sewage water outlets in the Upper Thames (a proportion of the contents of which, depending on the amount of "recycling", will have been "passed by the management").
These, as everywhere, also suffer from non-intended raw-sewage discharge from time-to-time, and sometimes more serious issues such as this:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/22/thames-water-hit-with-record-fine-for-huge-sewage-leaks
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>> >> Most of the London water supply does indeed come from the upper reaches of
>> the
>> >> the Thames but there is no sewage outlet above any of the abstraction points.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> I'd be interested to know where the abstraction points are (Somewhere above the tidal limit
>> at least? Reasonably close to the main reservoirs?).
Lowest downstream ones are Staines, Walton and Molesey.
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...thought they probably were.
Londoners may find some consolation that, given the sewage infringements were in Henley, Marlow, etc., at least they will be drinking 'upper-class' s***.
;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 13:53
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>> first post with my mew MacBook
>>
Take it back, the spell checker doesn't wock ;-)
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>> Incidentally, first post with my mew MacBook
Does it have a paws button?
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:-)
If it's one of the newer Macbook models, then it has the touch sensitive Touch Bar. So no physical function keys so no paws/pause button. Nothing stopping an app having a paws button.
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>>
>> >> Incidentally, first post with my mew MacBook
>>
>>
>> Does it have a paws button?
Fur whats its worth, it think he has been visiting too many pussy sites.
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For what it's worth, I was multitasking which is always a bit tricky before I have had sufficient caffeine
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>> sufficient caffeine
I've never been able to drink that much. However much I drink I rarely get beyond "bare minimum to survive the next hour without killing someone".
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>> Ye gods, have you tasted London water?
"Is there really a north-south water taste divide?"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22247668
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Scotland is hardly a cultural wasteland. Edinburgh hosts the world's largest arts festival and its parallel Fringe festival. It has an opera venue and several splendid art galleries (including one housing works by Norwich's own Michael Andrews, associate of Lucien Freud). Glasgow has the Burrel centre and the heritage of the Glasgow Boys school of artist, among others.
Last edited by: ambo on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 11:02
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I've already conceded that point Ambo. It's still dark cold and wet for too long for me though.
:-)
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I remember some ramblings when on here regularly 5 + years ago though you guys give thread drift a new meaning!
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I was fortunate to have the use of a company flat near Marble Arch for many years, as it had underground private parking it was ideal for visits to London. I still prefer it "up here" though, you can't beat driving out of London in the morning with the rush traffic crawling in the opposite direction. :-)
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Fence around London and leave it to fester :-)
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"Fence around London..."
There is. It's called the M25. Even that festers most of the time.
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>> No point at all - it'll only clog up soon enough.
>>
I'm not so sure. I remember reading a report online that looked into the amount of roads that we have in the UK. It was defined in various ways such as number of cars, number of journeys, length of road per area. Whichever way it was looked it the uk came out below other similar countries, some times surprisingly below.
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Better or more public transport.Electric trams would be a good idea expensive to build from scratch do.
People are not given up their cars if there is no alternative and there isn't.London is a one off.So many people in a confined space to move about.
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>> So many people in a confined space to move about.
>>
Exactly, we use a mile a minute as a good estimate of car journey times in my general area.
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>> >> So many people in a confined space to move about.
>> >>
>>
>> Exactly, we use a mile a minute as a good estimate of car journey times
>> in my general area.
Complete cobblers. Thats an average speed of 60 mph, and to achieve that you need to be doing 70 nearly everywhere. And you aint, not by a long shot.
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Cobblers to you to, most of our motorways are free flowing at the times we use them and I am 5 minutes from a motorway. Perth, Dundee, Stirling, Carlisle, and Glasgow all work with this estimate. Edinburgh takes a little longer as there is a long 40 average limit through the new bridge roadworks.
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Missed the edit -
I am sure you remember both myself and Runfer speaking about staying on cruise control from Carlisle to Glasgow.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 20:13
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"Fifty years across the Forth" on BBC4 just now.
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Don't care, you dont live on the edge of a motorway, few of your journeys are to someone else on the edge of the motorway, You dont live in glasgow, all your journeys are not to Carlisle in the middle of the night.
Plus you dont use cruise control.
So you are talking cobblers.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 20:44
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>> Don't care
That your taxes have bought us a superb and improving motorway system.
>> So you are talking cobblers.
I am so sorry, I didn't realise that you have in depth knowledge of the central Scottish motorway system, I use it almost daily, how often do you use it?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 21:00
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He doesn't need cruise control, he hangs out the window and shouts thus the doppler effect allows him to be all knowing.
Unlike you who cleerly nose nuffin.
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I take it you think that all the people who were using doppler to try and find MH 370 didn't know what they were doing either.
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Oh, you really are determined to take offence today aren't you.
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But given that they haven't actually found it, I'd have to say that the jury is still out on that one.
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>> But given that they haven't actually found it, I'd have to say that the jury
>> is still out on that one.
>>
....I haven't quite got the hang of this thread drift......Is it in the Thames?........
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>> >> But given that they haven't actually found it, I'd have to say that the
>> jury
>> >> is still out on that one.
>> >>
>>
>> ....I haven't quite got the hang of this thread drift......Is it in the Thames?........
Yes, thats why the water tastes so bad, but they will find it when they build the new bridge
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>>but they will find it when they build the new bridge
>>
>>
........a long time then. Will they find ON's sub when they build the tunnel, though?
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>> ........a long time then. Will they find ON's sub when they build the tunnel, though?
Dunno, could be anywhere, he has no idea where he left it as he thought he was doing 60 knots.
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>>........as he thought he was doing 60 knots.
>>
.....on cruise control, or knot not?....
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Doppler is information, you do not disregard it when resolving a problem. In my case it was used in target motion analysis (TMA). A target or contact being anything a submarine is detecting on its systems, TMA is used by submarines for collision avoidance as well as for aggressive purposes.
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You know that old box you have at the back of the cupboard under the stairs, ON? Have a look, see if you left your sense of humour in it.
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There are some people I would not waste a sense of humor on.
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All this because you wanted to be mean about London's water but couldn't live with anybody being mean about Scotland's culture.
Silly, even by my standards.
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In fairness, whatever average speed is being achieved, journey times on the Scottish motorway system are pretty consistent unless the weather decides to turn bad. Traffic density is much lower than further south other than at peak travel times on certain fairly specific sections.
I do a run from where I live to near Edinburgh airport fairly regularly, at least once a month, and despite it being 250 miles or so each way the timing for the northbound morning journey can be reliably predicted to within ten minutes. The trick is to get north of Preston before 06.00 and then the rest of it is almost always very clear. And indeed cruise control can be used for most of the rest of the journey until you get nearer Glasgow or Edinburgh where the commuter traffic slows things down.
The return journey, usually beginning mid afternoon, is equally easy until Preston again when it becomes affected by the Greater Manchester traffic.
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.....Aye, right, but that ignores the stop to change horses at Lockerbie....
:-P
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Well, water them anyway... ;-)
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Do you know, I still can't read the sign for Lockerbie without thinking of the air crash. By pure coincidence I was driving up the A74 on the morning after that terrible incident. Bits of aircraft were still smouldering in full view and sections of the road although cordoned off, had visible random debris scattered around and small impact craters in it. Damage to buildings could be seen and at that stage we still didn't know why the plane had come down. The younger brother of a close friend was one of the Police officers drafted in from Edinburgh to help with the investigation and some of the things he saw were deeply harrowing.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 22:20
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It's pleasant change to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about as opposed to the ill informed rubbish some spout.
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>> It's pleasant change to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about as
>> opposed to the ill informed rubbish some spout.
He said the traffic clogs up round Glasgow.
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>> He said the traffic clogs up round Glasgow.
>>
Did I say it didn't?
Quote "most of our motorways are free flowing at the times we use them".
And just so you are in no doubt, I live 5 minutes drive from a motorway junction.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 22:24
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Look you can wobble away all you want, but I can tell you you do not achieve an average speed of 60 mph. Go outside, now, check your trip computer and take a picture on your phone and post it here with the display giving an average speed of 60mph or greater.
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>> And just so you are in no doubt, I live 5 minutes drive from a
>> motorway junction.
Maybe you do, but your destinations are not all 5 minutes drive from a motorway. Oh and work out how fast you need to drive in the next 55 minutes to overcome those 5 minutes at 30 mph
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 14 Apr 17 at 01:59
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>> He said the traffic clogs up round Glasgow.
>>
...no; that's arteries.........
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How much would a new Thames bridge cost ? I think the new Runcorn bridge is about 300 mill.
With this in mind, wouldn't it be cheaper to divert the Thames to come out somewhere West of Dover and just build an embankment over the old river bed ? Just a thought :-)
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>>
>> How much would a new Thames bridge cost ? I think the new Runcorn bridge
>> is about 300 mill.
Qe2 bridge cost about the same. Funnily enough I have just discovered that average use of the bridge has dropped from 180k day to 136k a day.
Doesn't stop it raking in 80 million a year in charges
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You have bridge tolls? How quaint.
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"You have bridge tolls? How quaint."
From its opening in October 1995 until December 2004 the Skye Bridge charged a toll - one of the highest in Europe for its length.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Thu 13 Apr 17 at 22:57
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>> "You have bridge tolls? How quaint."
>>
>> From its opening in October 1995 until December 2004 the Skye Bridge charged a toll
>> - one of the highest in Europe for its length.
As did the Forth, Tay, and Erskine bridges until the tolls were abolished.
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For a bit of further driftery, I heard an argument for and against a "garden bridge" over the Thames on the radio today. Apparently quite a lot has already been spent on it but there are those who oppose its fruition ( I suppose )
Wonder what a garden bridge is anyway? Sounds nice I guess.
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>> For a bit of further driftery, I heard an argument for and against a "garden
>> bridge" over the Thames on the radio today. Apparently quite a lot has already been
>> spent on it but there are those who oppose its fruition ( I suppose )
>>
>>
>> Wonder what a garden bridge is anyway? Sounds nice I guess.
It is, as suggested, a proposed bridge with a garden on it. Trees, lawns, flowers, pathways, etc etc.
Trouble is, its in a place that no-one wants to cross. Its a Boris idea, so a complete load of old r*******.
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Wife works at a hospital linked to the Darent Valley Trust and the local paper has published a picture of the last car passing over the QE2 bridge that equates to the cost of the build which in theory means it should now start to be free to use (can't see that happening).
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>> Wife works at a hospital linked to the Darent Valley Trust and the local paper
>> has published a picture of the last car passing over the QE2 bridge that equates
>> to the cost of the build which in theory means it should now start to
>> be free to use (can't see that happening).
The plan was to make it free when it had paid for itself. Then they decided that tolls would continue to keep traffic volumes down. They then decided that toll booths were causing traffic jams, so replaced them with ANPR to get traffic volumes up.
The bridge (and its revenue)was then sold.
You can't make it up,
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>> In fairness, whatever average speed is being achieved, journey times on the Scottish motorway system
>> are pretty consistent unless the weather decides to turn bad. Traffic density is much lower
>> than further south other than at peak travel times on certain fairly specific sections.
M180 is the quietest mway i know of, even on friday afternoon there's barely any traffic at all on it. See plenty of cars that i guess most be doing a 100 mph as i don't think there's any cameras on it. Mind you its really only a link road rather than an arterial route, as it's a bit of a dead end.
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New Thames Crossing - Hard Cheese
