Non-motoring > Altered Sick Note	Legal Questions
Thread Author: Wibble	Replies: 26

New Sun 9 Apr 17 18:58   Altered Sick Note - Wibble

Had a lovely pub lunch with some old friends today. Their daughter is a PCSO. She has been signed off for a month after an accident and handed the doctor's sick note in to work. Call from manager after 1 week, "where are you" you were supposed to be back today! Turns up to her home with a copy of the sick note and its been altered to 1 week. She has a copy of the original and is hopping mad especially given the organisation that she works for! Unfortunately she didn't join the union so where should she to go for advice, Citizens Advice or Solicitors? Last edited by: Wibble on Sun 9 Apr 17 at 18:59 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 19:07   Altered Sick Note - Harleyman

Neither. It's fraud, report it to the police. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 19:11   Altered Sick Note - Wibble

>> Neither. It's fraud, report it to the police. >> Therein lies the problem. She works for them! I did suggest Professional Standards? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 19:40   Altered Sick Note - Harleyman

>> Therein lies the problem. She works for them! >> >> I did suggest Professional Standards? >> They must have a documented grievance procedure. If all else fails, inform the Chief Constable or perhaps the Police and Crime Commissioner Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 9 Apr 17 20:29   Altered Sick Note - No FM2R

How has it been altered? What level or premeditation / crime / stirring are we talking here? Surely there was no hope of real trouble because ultimately the doctor would have confirmed the truth. I struggle to see any anticipated gain by the offender other than hassle for the girl. If, as seems likely, its internal mischief making then I wouldn't bother doing anything particularly official. Catching the person may actually be counter productive. What I would do is cause a s*** storm to make sure they got worried about being caught and didn't consider doing similar again. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 9 Apr 17 at 20:30 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 9 Apr 17 21:11   Altered Sick Note - Wibble

>>How has it been altered The "too" date has been erased and overwritten in the same colour pen. It seems that her manager is a bit of a bully and thinks people off sick are taking the Michael. He gave her a warning for not being back at work with out further notice of sickness, which wouldn't have been required with the original sick note so he has gone to HR already and she needs to defend herself. Doctor has already confirmed the sick note details in writing and charged £15 to do so! Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 21:13   Altered Sick Note - No FM2R

>>and she needs to defend herself. This ought to be easy. She'll walk into HR with the doctor's confirmation and he'll have to explain how it got altered. Should almost be a spectator sport. To be honest I would still doubt that its the manager, he would have known how this was likely to end. There is something a bit weird here. Aside from anything else erasing ink without being obvious is almost impossible for the normal person. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 22:05   Altered Sick Note - tyrednemotional

... I'm with it being weird, since it is entirely provable, and it is unlikely anyone would "roll-over" at such a change. I'm a stickler for the routine, however. I would set out the details in a letter/email to HR, and request a formal meeting. Given the unknown origin of any alteration, I would also copy such letter/email to the ACC/DCC or whoever that is top of the command chain for HR. It should light the blue touch paper (and isn't, under the circumstances, an undue escalation). There is always a possibility that the organisation will "close ranks", and if so, things could get sticky, but who would want to continue to work for such an organisation anyway? In that final circumstance, and with the evidence, resignation and an industrial tribunal for constructive dismissal is a distinct possibility (but not without proper, prior legal advice). Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 9 Apr 17 22:19   Altered Sick Note - No FM2R

I say this with respect, and I have no knowledge of your friends or their daughters and no wish to cast aspersions. However, it has been my experience that when something doesn't make sense, or doesn't add up, it is sometimes, even often, the "victim" who hasn't described everything completely. If she has mis-described anything, either in error or on purpose, for any reason, do be careful about backing her into a corner where she feels compelled to take an action which may blow up in her face in the event of a full investigation. I can think of one incident in particular which blew up very badly in the face of the victim because she had, for various not particularly harmful reasons, got started on a path and then felt she couldn't get off the conveyor belt. Sometimes it can be as well to let things go quietly away. Just be careful of the difference between "helping/advising" and "pushing". Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 9 Apr 17 at 22:19 Reply to this message | Report message       5

New Sun 9 Apr 17 23:13   Altered Sick Note - MD

Take note of FM2R's wise words. He's often very near the Mark. Pun intended. Goodnight. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 22:22   Altered Sick Note - Duncan

>> Had a lovely pub lunch with some old friends today. ............. >> Unfortunately she didn't join the union so where should she to go for advice, Citizens >> Advice or Solicitors? Personally. I wouldn't get involved. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 9 Apr 17 22:29   Altered Sick Note - R.P.

Is she in an Union.....I b***** well hope so ! Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 23:41   Altered Sick Note - rtj70

>>Unfortunately she didn't join the union so where should she to go for advice, Citizens Advice or Solicitors? I have no suggestions but wish her the best. Sounds like her days working here are numbered if facts are correct. But if she has the GP back up the original sick note, she has a case for now. But that does not help in the longer term. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 9 Apr 17 23:48   Altered Sick Note - Hard Cheese

The union will mean polarised positions and intransigence, the PCC or the Chief Constable would be my recommendation. Though as has been said the complainant needs to be totally sure that no mud can stick on them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 00:01   Altered Sick Note - No FM2R

And if she does decide to press forward, Hard Cheese's point re union vs. PCC etc is particularly relevant to the question "what does she expect/want to achieve?". One should never go into a process without knowing what represents acceptable, unacceptable, desirable etc. etc. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 06:35   Altered Sick Note - R.P.

Which is why an Union is essential in this sort of case. Thinking about it last night. These are the routes to resolution. 1. Do nothing and stay off sick until the Fit Note runs out and await the consequences and then go to war over it. (which is what I would do) 2. Grievance against the line manager - if the line manager has altered the Fit Note - this could in all probability lead to discipline. 3. Approach the Manager and ask to see them - she would be entitled to take a "friend" with her as is her entitlement under employment law - the friend is either an Union rep or a colleague. Join the Union - this is what they're for. Going to the CAB will help but only if they have an Employment Solicitor/adviser that can help, otherwise they won't get involved. A better option is to phone ACAS and ask for advice. What I would "expect to achieve" personally would be to right a wrong more than anything. In all honesty all the PCC would do would be to direct her to internal processes. Whatever Force she works for needs to know they have a corrupt Officer/Police Staff working for them - they will have internal mechanisms in place for "whistle-blowing" corrupt practices. Whilst I endorse the "going to war" option - she needs to be entirely clear on the consequences both for her and the manager in question - they could go nuclear very quickly and have far-reaching consequences. The Police service is entirely different in most respects to civilian world. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 06:49   Altered Sick Note - Cliff Pope

Take due note of FM2R's caution. This sounds so stupidly unlikely that it's really hard to believe it is true. But altering a sick note is a criminal offence, and IF all the stated facts are true there is a cast iron case with the doctor's confirmation. Doctor's are incensed by this kind of thing, as they are conscious enough of their reputation with employers for signing anything, but being used for fraud is the final straw. We had a case where an employee blanked out details on an old sick note, photocopied it and imitated the doctor's hand to produce a new note. The doctor confirmed it was false and himself notified the police. We sacked the employee, for that and other offences. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 08:42   Altered Sick Note - mikeyb

>> We had a case where an employee blanked out details on an old sick note, >> photocopied it and imitated the doctor's hand to produce a new note. The doctor confirmed >> it was false and himself notified the police. We sacked the employee, for that and >> other offences. Reminds me of a case at my old employer - there was a guy who was often off sick - week here, week there, but always backed up with a sick note. After this had been going on for some time (years) a new bright spark in HR noticed that the serial numbers on the notes were sequential and he had been writing them himself. Never knew how he came to have the pad of notes though - stolen or acquired through some other means Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 11:23   Altered Sick Note - Fullchat

Mark is right. People will only tell you what they want you to hear and suits their puposes. If she is in the right over this and she now has confirmation from her GP to cover her absence then contact Professional Standards. They will be all over it like a rash. Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 10 Apr 17 at 11:25 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 14:18   Altered Sick Note - Ted

I signed an agreement for a years advertising in a hotel magazine many years ago. It was for a year at £450. The rep left me with a carbon copy and said an invoice would follow. It did...for 2 years fees. They had written out a new agreement. But they had forgotten that some of us paid attention at school and knew the alphabet and numbers off by heart. They took me to the County Court when the £850 wasn't forthcoming. I applied for the case to be heard locally, as was my right. I spoke with their 14yr old solicitor outside the court and showed him my carbon copy of the original agreement. He paled visibly as I asked him what they were going to do next. I suggested they drop the action and he agreed. They didn't turn up at the next hearing. Do they just assume that Mr J Public is too thick to notice these things ? Good job I had filed the carbon ! They went into liquidation later that year...:-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 14:54   Altered Sick Note - Old Navy

I had a similar one, after returning a rental car in Australia and returning home I received a demand for several thousand dollars for damage to the car with dates that did not tie in from the company head office.The return to the big name company (franchise?) did not ring true. 31st of a month, the staff member was more interested in the end of month printout and did not even see the car. I had photographed the office with date on the counter and staff guy, and all four sides of the undamaged car. I replied to the demand copied to the travel agent (Big Aussie specialist) and the credit card company used, and said that I considered it a fraudulent claim and offered the photos. They apologised profusely and claimed an error had been made. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 10 Apr 17 21:43   Altered Sick Note - Rudedog

A couple years ago I had several episodes of lengthy stays in hospital and procedures, all of the 'Fitness to work' certificates issued by my GP were printed electronically from their PCs, then they just signed them. Even after major surgery the hospital I attended would not issue me with a note, the policy now is for all patients to self-certificate for the first seven days then approach their GP for any extension. We now do that at the Trust I work at, saves us a fair bit of work chasing surgeons for certificates that they have forgotten to write, I'm sure employers won't be happy but it's a Gov. push to make savings. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 11 Apr 17 05:46   Altered Sick Note - Crankcase

Our place recently introduced a policy that if you are off sick either the day before or the day after a pre-booked holiday, or a bank holiday, you need a doctor's note, even for just one day. The staff handbook says that they appreciate the GP may not be willing because of the seven day self-certification thing, and of course there may be a fee that we ourselves have to pay, but nonetheless, no note, no pay for that day other than legal minimum sick pay, or however it works. Some departments, we understand, had staff who were continually taking the Michael, as it were, so now we all have the policy applied. No idea of the legality in employment law. I'm sure it is legal or they wouldn't be doing it. But it's introduced a slightly more negative vibe about such things than hitherto. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 11 Apr 17 06:20   Altered Sick Note - R.P.

www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave Legality is fine. Fairness is another thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 11 Apr 17 10:15   Altered Sick Note - VxFan

Our company implemented the Bradford Factor a couple of years or so ago (also referred to as the Bradford Formula and the Bradford Index) It has caught one or two innocent people out, one of which who was pregnant. Her absences for doctor appointments etc racked up her score and got the HR department twitching. The union sorted that one out for her. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Factor www.bradfordfactorcalculator.com/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 11 Apr 17 10:38   Altered Sick Note - Bromptonaut

>> Our company implemented the Bradford Factor a couple of years or so ago (also referred >> to as the Bradford Formula and the Bradford Index) One of my former CS offices used something similar in the late nineties. As well as measuring individual's absences it was also developed as a metric for the performance of Dept heads in managing sick absence. Not wholly effective as one small team (legal) comprising fewer than ten had one member off over months with a terminal illness. Consequently they topped the chart time and time again. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 11 Apr 17 18:04   Altered Sick Note - R.P.

Victim Support operate the same scheme. Management clusters should be small enough to manage this without resorting to formulae. I read somewhere once that the Bradford Factor process had been dis-credited. VS have also had a major clear out of senior managers. I think, personally, not before time. Reply to this message | Report message