Non-motoring > The 12 Points	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Ambo	Replies: 83

New Tue 17 Jan 17 12:55   The 12 Points - Ambo

What did you think of Theresa May's speech? I was a bit worried about her rhapsodic start, listening for stirring background music, but she got into a good stride early on. She seemed set to adopt a strong structure to her 44min. oration and began by numbering her bullet points. However this did not last and the final nine were as if subsumed under a "Global Britain" heading. I like her stress on the advantages to the EU which would be lost if it adopted a punitive approach to negotiations. Overall, I think her speech revealed a mature stateswoman but she was on shaky ground looking forward to the support of 65 million Brits - when nearly half would like to scupper the deal. [In passing, whence the ugly modern locution for "the, "ther" instead of "thee", as in the awkward "ther EU" rather than the more mellifluous "thee EU"? Some BBC anti-posh dictate, maybe?] Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:04   The 12 Points - sooty123

No I didn't watch it a bit long winded for me. I just read the summary on the bbc. Not a great surprise i suppose, although generally i think she's done a good job as PM. That I'm surprised about i never thought about her as PM material. 'Whence' what sort of a word is that? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:09   The 12 Points - Bobby

She wants all the nations to work together to achieve this when two of them , in effect, voted against it! Good luck with that! Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:25   The 12 Points - Focal Point

"'Whence' what sort of a word is that?" A very good word, authenticated by centuries of usage, though perhaps a little dated now for some tastes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:29   The 12 Points - sooty123

> A very good word, authenticated by centuries of usage, though perhaps a little dated now >> for some tastes. >> Sounds clunky and ugly to me. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:31   The 12 Points - Focal Point

You probably don't like "hence", "whither", "thither", "wherefore" and a few others I can't think of for the moment. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:35   The 12 Points - sooty123

Can't say I've thought much about it. Although I don't hear anyone use such ye olde words. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:27   The 12 Points - Focal Point

"... she was on shaky ground looking forward to the support of 65 million Brits - when nearly half would like to scupper the deal." I don't think we can assume that. I get the impression that a sense of reality has now set in and many of the Remainers just want the best way forward. I may be wrong, of course. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:44   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> I don't think we can assume that. I get the impression that a sense of >> reality has now set in and many of the Remainers just want the best way >> forward. >> Especially now that the doom mongers at IMF, BoE, Treasury, etc. have all admitted that their gloomy economic forecasts were wrong, very very wrong. I know a lot of Remain voters who have told me they would have voted Leave if they had not been frightened off by those warnings of Armageddon. (Even Smokie's Taylor Woodrow stock price has recovered most of losses suffered after 23 June 2016) Reply to this message | Report message       4

New Tue 17 Jan 17 13:58   The 12 Points - movilogo

The original 12 points are (copied from Telegraph): 01.Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU. 02.Control of our own laws. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. 03.Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. 04.Deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland. 05.Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe. 06.Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. 07.Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them. 08.Free trade with European markets through a bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union. 09.New trade agreements with other countries. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation. 10.The best place for science and innovation. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. 11.Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself. 12.A smooth, orderly Brexit. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states. My grouped summary shown below: Brexit Administration - 1, 12 Laws - 2, 3 Immigration - 4, 5, 6 Trade - 8, 9 Marketing/Gimmick/Other - 7, 10, 11 Against #5, Daily Mail printed the word "ending freedom of movement". I think this is the main one amongst all. Last edited by: movilogo on Tue 17 Jan 17 at 14:02 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 14:24   The 12 Points - Ambo

>> whence More economical than "from where comes..." or "where does (subject) come from...?" Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 15:08   The 12 Points - sooty123

More economical than "from where comes..." or "where does (subject) come from...?" >> aye, this typing business is exhausting, i need a nap. ;) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 14:44   The 12 Points - smokie

Thanks for remembering me Brian :-). Think how high those shares could have been if they hadn't dropped nearly 50% after the vote... I'm also reassured that at least someone had confidence that the forecasts from those august bodies would be wrong. Goodness knows why we pay these experts so much money when there are folks out here who understand stuff so much better. :-) Anyway it is still true that we aren't yet BREXITd, and I still personally have very uncomfortable feelings about the future. So while I still don't think it was the right decision.as I've said before we should just get on with it. I watched about 2/3rds of Mother Theresa's speech. She has some slightly theatrical mannerisms which I quite enjoyed but I thought on the whole she speaks sense, and I don't really see how else it can be done. I hope that although Parliament now has some say in the outcome they do not stand in the way of it, but I'm glad they will be there as a check and balance. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 15:14   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> I'm also reassured that at least someone had confidence that the forecasts from those august >> bodies would be wrong. Goodness knows why we pay these experts so much money when >> there are folks out here who understand stuff so much better. :-) >> I chose to believe the Leave side's august bodies and/or experts, rather than those I knew for a fact to be liars (Cameron - numerous broken explicit promises; Clegg - remember his publicity stunt to sign a pledge not to raise tuition fess; Gordon Brown's promise "British jobs for British people"; not to mention omnishambes Osborne - yes I said not to mention any of his broken promises; and the IMF and BoE, really do you believe in them getting anywhere close to getting right any of their forecasts?). >> I still personally have very uncomfortable feelings about the future. >> Sorry that you feel that way, despite my attempts to get you think positively. Try it for a few days, you just might find it works wonders for your life in general. Give it up and go back to having uncomfortable feelings, if it doesn't.;-) Last edited by: BrianByPass on Tue 17 Jan 17 at 15:15 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 17 Jan 17 15:30   The 12 Points - smokie

Is agreeing with BREXIT becoming mandatory then? :-) If you knew me in real life you'd know that I am one of the more positive people on this planet. So thanks for your kind thoughts and assistance but not required at this juncture :-) Last edited by: smokie on Tue 17 Jan 17 at 15:30 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 17:34   The 12 Points - Dutchie

She had to make a decisive speech and there will be a clean divorce.>:) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:19   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> Is agreeing with BREXIT becoming mandatory then? :-) >> Not mandatory, but it will help calm your anxiety, tremendously bigly beautifully trumpety trumply if you do. Brexit is happening, whether anyone likes it a lot or not a jot. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:39   The 12 Points - smokie

You really don't need to keep stating the obvious for our benefit Brian, I am aware that BREXIT is happening, as I think we all are here. If you care to look back I used the term uncomfortable, not anxious, about BREXIT. If I were anxious about anything, it would be more likely to be about the current attitude of some of the Leavers, and their apparent expectation that everyone should fall into line like sheep without a word of dissent or disagreement, and that the topic is off limits for sensible discussion. I prefer a democracy where each individual's view is valued, but each to his own. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 17:39   The 12 Points - Bobby

>>I chose to believe the Leave side's august bodies and/or experts Does that include messages on the sides of double decker buses? Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Tue 17 Jan 17 19:42   The 12 Points - Roger.

Talked the talk (mostly) will she walk the walk - not too sure. More delay in actioning Brexit = more time for Remainers to work mischief. P.S. Tim Farron is a prat, "undemocratic", my ass! He wouldn't say that if the vote was the other way. Reply to this message | Report message       5

New Tue 17 Jan 17 20:05   The 12 Points - NortonES2

No. Nigel would though. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Tue 17 Jan 17 20:14   Europe and Human Rights - Bromptonaut

Not an EU issue but conflated often enough by the antis to justify adding to this thread. The European Court of Human Rights has agreed that 'whole life' sentences are not a breach of the convention. www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jan/17/european-judges-uphold-uk-right-to-impose-whole-life-jail-sentences Can you imagine the headlines in Mail, Express and Telegraph if this had gone the other way? Instead I doubt it features as a column inch on page 34; if mentioned at all. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 20:30   Europe and Human Rights - CGNorwich

No lover of the Mail but www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4128390/Triple-killer-loses-human-rights-challenge.html No idea what page it is on. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jan 17 23:25   The 12 Points - smokie

They are saying the Theresa has rather taken the wind out of UKIP sails, and asking who would vote for UKIP next time around,. assuming the people trust Theresa. That almost belongs in a How Politics Works Pt 2 thread, where the Tories use BREXIT as a means to squash UKIP alongside delivering the referendum requirement. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 09:36   The 12 Points - movilogo

>> They are saying the Theresa has rather taken the wind out of UKIP sails, That depends on what state UK detached itself from EU before 2020. If all talks and no action then UKIP might steal few votes again. Looking at bigger picture, I don't think even anyone in UKIP dreams of winning 2020 election. However, now UKIP wants to be a viable alternatives to Labour. On that front, they might do rather well. Last edited by: movilogo on Wed 18 Jan 17 at 09:37 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:25   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> >>I chose to believe the Leave side's august bodies and/or experts >> >> Does that include messages on the sides of double decker buses? >> Yes, of course. Some experts now say that if they were in charge of Brexit, they could even increase the NHS contribution beyond that promised on those buses. How? By getting money diverted from the nonsensical artificial target of 0.7% foreign aid budget. If Sturgeon carries out her threat to take the Scots out of the Union, it will free up even more dosh (that currently goes to that failed state) to be used for the benefit of the English NHS. We will just have a White and Red Brexit, without the Blue, thank you. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 08:40   The 12 Points - Cliff Pope

>> >> - when nearly half would like to scupper the deal. >> I don't think so. There is a hard core of Remainers who apparently really would like to see this all end in disaster and financial collapse so that they could enjoy saying "I told you so", but most people now recognise reality and the need to get on with the job. It's a bit like some Conservatives after the 1945 election, or Labour after Margaret Thatcher. You can only moan and yearn to put the clock back for so long, but after a bit self-pity has to give way to recognition that time has moved on. No one's going to be drinking at the Remoaners Arms in ten years time. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 13:52   The 12 Points - Roger.

This post appeared on a site many of you dislike. Breitbart London is unashamedly right of centre and I agree that some responses to articles there are, are to say the least, unsavoury. This post is not in the unsavoury category and as it largely reflects my views here it is. I expect the usual obloquy from some of you, but I have broad shoulders :-) "If the British people had been told in 1975 that we would be entering what would turn into a German controlled superstate , that our democracy would be destroyed, that we'd lose our national sovereignty, that we'd be governed by a de facto German regime, that we would be flooded by millions of EU economic refugees from a collapsing EU, that our security would be threatened by the hatred of nation states shown by Germany and the EU who told millions from North Africa and the Middle East, come to the EU, then we'd have voted to leave. We were lied to. The honesty we need is for the europhiles and the MSM , especially the BBC, to admit that the true objective of the EU is to create a totalitarian superstate, with no democratic mandate, and for the 28 nations of Europe to be replaced with regional clones carrying out the instruction of the centre. Then we will see that the lies they peddle about supposed economic benefits of EU membership are a smokescreen to hide the true objective. Europe has tried totalitarianism, fascism and communism several times in the last hundred years as a corrupt elite tries to thieve the freedom of hundreds of millions of people and these attempts have failed. The totalitarian EU will be defeated too." Hat tip to cargill55 Last edited by: Roger. on Wed 18 Jan 17 at 13:54 Reply to this message | Report message       8

New Wed 18 Jan 17 13:55   The 12 Points - CGNorwich

You live in another universe to me. Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:07   The 12 Points - sooty123

This post is not in the unsavoury category Your quite correct it's not, but such posts on such websites are generally little more than a circle jerk over a fantasy. >> I expect the usual obloquy I think some people go out of their way to use the most obscure words they can find. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:18   The 12 Points - Fursty Ferret

The only impression that I got is that she's in way over her head and the entire job would be best abandoned, or at the very least handed over to someone who appears to know what they're talking about. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:24   The 12 Points - Fursty Ferret

"I don't think so. There is a hard core of Remainers who apparently really would like to see this all end in disaster and financial collapse so that they could enjoy saying "I told you so", but most people now recognise reality and the need to get on with the job." I don't want to see this all end in disaster but I can confidently tell you that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. Do you realise that because we've got so few people with the intelligence and wherewithal to negotiate trade agreements we're employing foreign nationals to negotiate against their own governments in our interest? *slow clap* It' a shower of proverbial from start to finish; for the vast majority it took place on racist grounds and really, if you've lost your job to someone that doesn't even speak English then frankly I think you need to be asking yourself serious questions. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:35   The 12 Points - sooty123

but I can confidently tell >> you that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. Really? While your at it fancy giving me a sneaky peek at next weeks lottery numbers? Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:59   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> I don't want to see this all end in disaster but I can confidently tell >> you that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. >> I'll hold you to that. I think your prediction will most turn out the same as the Armageddon forecasts. >> Do you realise that because we've got so few people with the intelligence and wherewithal >> to negotiate trade agreements we're employing foreign nationals to negotiate against their own governments in >> our interest? >> Not fake news? Where did you get that real news? >> It' a shower of proverbial from start to finish; for the vast majority it took >> place on racist grounds and really, if you've lost your job to someone that doesn't >> even speak English then frankly I think you need to be asking yourself serious questions. >> You'll soon come round to accepting Brexit. Many have already done so. See today's Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/bregrets-remainers-polls-leavers-brexit-referendum I hope you are doing your bit for race relations www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/18/britons-should-learn-polish-punjabi-and-urdu-to-boost-social-cohesion Last edited by: BrianByPass on Wed 18 Jan 17 at 15:04 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 17:14   The 12 Points - Fursty Ferret

>> Not fake news? Where did you get that real news? Sadly, from someone who's actively involved in Brexit negotiations. :-( Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:05   The 12 Points - Pat

>>It' a shower of proverbial from start to finish;<< Only for those who voted to remain. >> for the vast majority it took place on racist grounds<< Really? For the vast majority it took place because our services and infrastructure could no longer cope. NHS, Care for the elderly, housing etc. but if you want to interpret that as racist then so be it. and really, if you've lost your job to someone that doesn't even speak English then frankly I think you need to be asking yourself serious questions. << It certainly shows that immigrants both legal and illegal have not yet learned how to become pilots. Get out of that bubble and start to look at what it's really like in the real world of the majority (and it was a majority) of the voters. Pat Reply to this message | Report message       5

New Wed 18 Jan 17 17:13   The 12 Points - Fursty Ferret

>> Only for those who voted to remain. You do realise that everyone will lose access to the single market? To European education? That new stuff costs more? Want to do, or buy something from outside the UK? 40% more expensive. Brexit has given a green light to allow racism that's been bubbling under the surface in the UK into the open. The whole campaign was centred on "let's take our country back". >> It certainly shows that immigrants both legal and illegal have not yet learned how to >> become pilots. Many pilots working in the UK are immigrants. They are now worried about their futures here because of the complete lack of planning and lack of thought by May. >> Really? For the vast majority it took place because our services and infrastructure could no >> longer cope. NHS, Care for the elderly, housing etc. EU immigrants paid more than £2.54 billion in income tax than they received in benefits in 2014-15. The reason services are overburdened is thanks to budget cuts and appalling management, coupled with an ageing population that's living longer, but in poorer health thanks to a terrible diet and lack of exercise. Who do you think works in care homes caring for the elderly? 'Cos it's not the British. And if you voted leave on these grounds - as in you failed to run even a single statement past Google to see what the truth was - that's almost as bad. The Centre for Economic Policy concludes that “we can confidently say that the empirical evidence shows that EU immigration has not had significantly negative effects on average employment, wages, inequality or public services at the local level for the UK-born.” >> Get out of that bubble and start to look at what it's really like in the real world of the >> majority (and it was a majority) of the voters. It's not a bubble, it's stating the bleeding obvious. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Thu 19 Jan 17 03:35   The 12 Points - Pat

>>Who do you think works in care homes caring for the elderly? 'Cos it's not the British. << My daughter in law does, and has for the past 20 years. She's most certainly British and reports that now many of the patients are not. Our aging population is not limited to British people. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 09:35   The 12 Points - Cliff Pope

>> >> I don't want to see this all end in disaster but I can confidently tell >> you that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. >> That will rank with "These four have no talent and I can confidently tell you pop music is dead". :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:01   The 12 Points - BrianByPass

>> The only impression that I got is that she's in way over her head and >> the entire job would be best abandoned, or at the very least handed over to >> someone who appears to know what they're talking about. >> Would you like the job? Mind you, the pay is not much better than that of airline pilot, and you're unlikely to get much appreciation for what you do from the public. ;-) Last edited by: BrianByPass on Wed 18 Jan 17 at 15:02 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:25   The 12 Points - Crankcase

Obloquy is perfectly cromulant, sooty. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:33   The 12 Points - sooty123

>> Obloquy is perfectly cromulant, sooty. >> I'll take that as a yes, but i knew the answer already. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 14:40   The 12 Points - CGNorwich

>> Obloquy is perfectly cromulant, sooty. >> Only for the inaniloquent. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:23   The 12 Points - Crankcase

Are you calling me otiose and nugatory, CG? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:42   The 12 Points - Pat

otiose >>abortive, apathetic, arid, barren, bootless, dallying, dilatory, disengaged, dispensable, disused, dormant, dried up, effete, exhausted, expendable, faineant, fallow, feckless, fruitless, futile, idle, impotent, impracticable, impractical, inactive, indolent, ineffective, ineffectual, inefficacious, inefficient, inert, infertile, inoperative, invalid, issueless, jejune, jobless, lackadaisical, laggard, lagging, lame, languorous, lazy, leaden, lethargic, lethargical, lifeless, listless, lymphatic, motionless, neglectful, nonfunctional, nonfunctioning, nonparticipating, nugatory, null and void, oscitant, passive, phlegmatic, powerless, resultless, slack, slothful, slow, sluggish, spiritless, stagnating, sterile, supine, torpescent, torpid, unable, unadaptable, unavailing, uncalled-for, unemployed, unfertile, unfruitful, unnecessary, unneeded, unoccupied, unpersevering, unproductive, unprofitable, unprolific, unserviceable, unsubstantial, unsuccessful, unusable, unwanted, unworkable, useless, vain, valueless, wasted, weary, worthless nugatory>> having no legal or binding force Synonyms bad, inoperative, invalid, nonbinding, nonvalid, null, null and void, void Related Words illegal; useless, worthless; ineffective, ineffectual Near Antonyms legal; working Antonyms binding, good, valid 2 lacking importance Synonyms fiddling, foolish, frivolous, incidental, inconsequential, inconsiderable, insignificant, little, Mickey Mouse, minor, minute, negligible, unimportant, slight, small, small-fry, trifling, trivial Related Words jerkwater, one-horse; nickel-and-dime, paltry, petty, small-time, worthless; anonymous, nameless, obscure, uncelebrated, unknown Near Antonyms decisive, fatal, fateful; chief, dominant, overbearing, overmastering, overriding, principal; distinctive, exceptional, impressive, outstanding, prominent, remarkable; valuable, worthwhile, worthy; distinguished, eminent, great, illustrious, preeminent, prestigious; famous, notorious, renowned; all-important, basic, essential, fundamental, key Antonyms big, consequential, eventful, important, major, material, meaningful, momentous, significant, substantial, unfrivolous, weighty There we go. Just for those who are as ignorant as I am:) Pat Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:50   The 12 Points - smokie

Tibi gratias ago pro subsidio tuo Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 15:55   The 12 Points - Pat

You're very welcome. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 16:08   The 12 Points - Crankcase

Thank you Pat. That mass of text reminds me I must try a little oculus reparo. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 16:35   The 12 Points - Pat

Google is my friend Crankcase:) .....at least I've learned something today not that I'll remember it. I've also learned not to trust a firm when they say they will pay their invoice immediately so I shall go and collect it personally tomorrow! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 16:55   The 12 Points - RattleandSmoke

If she thinks the remain side has got over it she has got another thing coming. I am now politically involved in this so it is all I am going to say at this stage. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jan 17 18:49   The 12 Points - Dutchie

Go on Rattle tell us your political secret.>:) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 09:39   The 12 Points - Cliff Pope

>> Go on Rattle tell us your political secret.>:) >> Smokeanddagger - something to do with Corbyn? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 18:49   The 12 Points - The Melting Snowman

>>I am now politically involved in this I look forward to the outcome. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 19:03   The 12 Points - Dutchie

What about the 3 million immigrants from the E.U.who live and work in the UK? No clear answer from anybody in the U.K unless it is marching orders. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 21:57   The 12 Points - Dutchie

End of conversation.? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 22:58   The 12 Points - commerdriver

I think point 6 covered your question Dutchie, I also think that should, and will, be one of the first to get agreed. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jan 17 23:36   The 12 Points - Bobby

I know several folk who voted Leave who are now openly admitting that they regret their decision. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 00:01   The 12 Points - commerdriver

>> I know several folk who voted Leave who are now openly admitting that they regret >> their decision. >> Changing your mind is a fairly common thing, I expect there are many who voted remain who might well vote leave in a second vote. I would probably vote leave now because that was the result and to ignore the wishes of the voters whatever the reason they voted that way, does not seem right. The majority voted leave and whether I think they were right or not I could not ignore that and would vote to respect the original referendum. I don't think you or I or anyone could call the result of a rerun with any accuracy. Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Thu 19 Jan 17 09:45   The 12 Points - Cliff Pope

>> >> I don't think you or I or anyone could call the result of a rerun >> with any accuracy. >> Exactly. The SNP for example are beginning to get wary of making assumptions about the outcome of reruns. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 09:52   The 12 Points - Ambo

"Cromulant", Crankcase? You've got me there, likewise Wikidictionary and my "Shorter" (4.50 kilo) OED. It sounds like a word from Finnegran's Wake, which has a dozen such meaningless terms per page. (They come in handy for passwords.) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 09:57   The 12 Points - Cliff Pope

"It is safe to say that The Simpsons has contributed a great deal to the English language. One famous example is cromulent, which was coined specifically for the 1996 episode “Lisa the Iconoclast." In reference to one character’s questioning of the use of embiggen, another says “it’s a perfectly cromulent word.” Despite being a complete fabrication, the word caught on, and seems to be made for the internet—where the most popular "favorite words" are rarely used for their intended purposes." Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 10:12   The 12 Points - Ambo

I bow to your superior media knowledge. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 10:10   The 12 Points - Crankcase

Sorry to tease. But I do like "Finnegran's Wake". The poor love. Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 19 Jan 17 at 10:10 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 10:13   The 12 Points - Ambo

Well, it is at least in the Joyce spirit. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 19 Jan 17 10:15   The 12 Points - Crankcase

Yes, a kind of re-joyce I suppose. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 10:18   The 12 Points - Ambo

I think I'd better beginnegan. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 11:03   The 12 Points - rtj70

When we send the immigrants that are here back to their countries, at least they will be replaced by the British expats coming back from Spain, France, etc. who can no longer afford to live there without healthcare provision. And the doctors and lawyers who no longer have recognised qualifications to work in the EU. So we send back some and get back Brits. Probably push up house prices a bit if the doctors and lawyers and other professionals come back. There was a story in one of the papers the other day of a woman who's live in the UK for 30 years. She had children and is married. She tried to check her legal status post Brexit via official routes. It turns out she may not be allowed to remain in the UK after Brexit. There are things she hasn't done that may rule out her be allowed to stay. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 11:07   The 12 Points - NortonES2

I'll have to break it to one of my sisters, who was born in Germany, that there might be some little local difficulty. Shame, as she is a very ardent Tory and Brexit fan:) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 12:25   The 12 Points - sooty123

It >> sounds like a word from Finnegran's Wake. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake for anyone else who's not heard it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 13:28   The 12 Points - movilogo

The number of Brits living in EU is less than number of EU nationals living in UK. So if that mass exodus happens (very unlikely) then net population of UK will decrease. >> There was a story in one of the papers the other day That's what newspapers do. They pick an extreme example and spin stories out of it as if huge number of people are affected by same incident (ignoring the fact how even more people could be affected if the issue is not addressed). Any rule will make some people inconvenienced. It is not possible to satisfy all people all the time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 15:06   The 12 Points - Roger.

>> What about the 3 million immigrants from the E.U.who live and work in the UK? >> >> No clear answer from anybody in the U.K unless it is marching orders. >> AFAILK legals here will be OK to stay, but the cut-off date has not been promulgated Last edited by: Roger. on Thu 19 Jan 17 at 15:07 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 15:42   The 12 Points - commerdriver

As far as I understand some have a legal right to stay anyway (as do some ex-pats abroad) but the target Mother T stated was 06.Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. Which seems eminently sensible Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 19 Jan 17 17:10   The 12 Points - No FM2R

>>Which seems eminently sensible Mm. And I presume if their dependant children want to join them then that would be ok. Or their aging parents. What about cousins? What about children over the age of 21? What about boyfriend's and girlfriends? I mean, where would you draw the line? These are all rights expected by Brits abroad, but somehow they seem more reluctant to grant them to others. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 14:08   The 12 Points - RattleandSmoke

I don't want to go into detail of all the stuff I have been doing due to the amount of leave voters on here but I am now very involved in the remain side cause. I have donated money, joined a political party and lobbied MPs. If May thought we had gone away and are just are being quiet she aint seen nothing yet! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 14:19   The 12 Points - sooty123

Genuine question, what's your aim what are you hoping to achieve? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 14:51   The 12 Points - RattleandSmoke

For me personally remaining in the single market, but with the government introducing the controls on immigration they have been allowed to use since 2004 but have chosen not to. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 15:13   The 12 Points - legacylad

Rattle... not heard from you for a while, so glad you are ok. You appear to have taken this Brexit vote quite hard, so, I could be wrong, but if you have no spouse, or dependents, why not go and live in Spain if you are so pro EU? You have specific skills, the climate is nicer, immerse yourself in the language & culture, and give it a go for 12 months. Although I voted for Brexit i still love to spend time on the continent, enjoying the different cultures and improving my language skills. And as someone who travels abroad far more than most, the poor exchange rate, as I knew it would, has affected me quite a lot. Take care Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 15:38   The 12 Points - RattleandSmoke

This is not any hatred of the UK, I love this country all my friends and family are around me I wouldn't want to move out of the UK but I am keeping my options open. I had thought about moving to Spain but the grass isn't always greener on the other side. It is still an option I am considering though. I would have to sell everything I own and would basically come back to nothing, no business, no car etc. I am hoping to spend a bit longer in France and Spain in the summer though. I am not claiming to be totally pro EU either I just think remaining in the EU is a far less of an evil than the other options. People don't seem to realise that any trade deal we get also comes with a load of commitments. We live in a globalised world, the days of any western countries producing all their own cheap consumer goods are long gone. I don't really want a debate on here anyway as I spent my entire life doing nothing but that at the moment. This is my escape but I saw this thread and felt I had to reply to it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 24 Jan 17 12:21   The 12 Points - Dutchie

I live in a country be it here or abroad I love my family which is important to me.We have become less tolerant I have seen it here and abroad. Our career politicians have had the wrong end of the sick and now we face the consequenses. I will be renewing my Dutch passport in the spring if I get a letter to sling my hook so be it.>:) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 24 Jan 17 12:32   The 12 Points - CGNorwich

I'm sure you will be OK Dutchie but isn't it a shame that wea are subjecting residents who,came herew quite legally to such uncertainty. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 24 Jan 17 13:08   The 12 Points - Dog

>>I will be renewing my Dutch passport in the spring if I get a letter to sling my hook so be it.>:) Here ya go m8: www.directferries.co.uk/harwich_hook_of_holland_ferry.htm Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 15:32   The 12 Points - sooty123

but with the government introducing the controls >> on immigration they have been allowed to use since 2004 but have chosen not to. >> >> Which ones are you thinking of? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 20 Jan 17 16:12   The 12 Points - Focal Point

"but with the government introducing the controls >> on immigration they have been allowed to use since 2004 but have chosen not to. >> >> Which ones are you thinking of?" I'm a bit bemused by this, too, as I was under the impression that Cameron's attempts, during his abortive negotiations last year, to get tighter controls over immigration were met with a brick wall. So I'm surprised to learn there were things he could have done without negotiating with the EU about it. Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Fri 20 Jan 17 20:36   The 12 Points - Bromptonaut

>> Which ones are you thinking of? ISTR reading something along similar lines in an opinion piece, possibly in the Guardian. Struck me as a fanciful interpretation of EU rules intended for one purpose applied to something completely different. Reply to this message | Report message