Living in an area served by southern trains I'm somewhat tired of the industrial action over, as far as I can see, who can and can't open the doors...;)
So I did chuckle when watching this (a BBC4 programme on the construction of the Victoria Line) when it got the section on automation and how all the driver really had to do was open and close the doors...
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victoria-line#group=p00synd3
There's a notable lack of high viz and hard hats in its construction, so goodness knows how many injuries and deaths occurred :(
As an aside, which I know shows a woeful lack of knowledge on my part, I'd always assumed that the Victoria had been there for a lot longer than since the 60s. I'd just assumed it had been named after Queen Victoria while she was alive!
|
>> Living in an area served by southern trains I'm somewhat tired of the industrial action
>> over, as far as I can see, who can and can't open the doors...;)
Yeah I've seen that I'm the news. Looks quite bad whatever the ins and outs. I read some people have quit their jobs and moved because of it.
|
|
Some people have lost their jobs over it and others have had offers of work rescinded.
|
I wonder if this could work?
Public sector workers are paid a premium. In return, they forfeit the right to take industrial action.
I think this already applies to the police although the "premium" in their case may be retirement 5 years earlier that normal (OTOH maybe they have to pay correspondingly more for their pensions).
|
Unlikely to work over the long term as over time the additional payment would become regarded as part of standard entitlement.
Slight tangent, I recall back in Thatch days MPs being given allowances for unreceipted expenses for various things including their IT (about £9k IIRC) which, at the time, were seen by some as being a bung to top up what was seen as relatively low pay (for the role). Roll forward a few years and you have the expenses scandal (which was, in my mind, a scandal, but I do think that some of the longer serving ones who were around in the 80s/90s genuinely thought they were not breaking any rule)
|
>>Public sector workers are paid a premium. In return, they forfeit the right to take industrial action.
Railway workers are not public sector, they work for a private company.
Removal of the right to strike is dangerous. What if your employer cuts your wages or increases your hours without negotiation - if you can't strike then what else can you do?
|
>> - if you can't strike then what else can you do?
>>
Get on your bike?
|
>>Get on your bike?
We had better hope that all of the junior doctors, teachers, judges, prison officers, nurses, midwives, firemen, care staff, power station workers etc. etc. do not all decide to walk out en-mass and find jobs elsewhere, because if they did then we could be stuck!
This union bashing thing only has a good outcome for the Govt and employers who can offer lower wages, less benefits, worse conditions etc. and make more profit. If we let this happen then a century of improved working conditions would go out of the door!
|
>>This union bashing thing only has a good outcome for the Govt and employers who can offer lower wages, less benefits, worse conditions etc. and make more profit. If we let this happen then a century of improved working conditions would go out of the door!
I'd love a world without unions, but first we need a world without incompetent, unscrupulous, mindless, thoughtless, worthless management making life changing decisions with implications inflicted on their workers for no good reason.
|
>> implications inflicted on their workers for
>> no good reason.
>>
Tends to happen more often than not with near monopoly employers (NHS comes to mind).
|
>> This union bashing thing only has a good outcome for the Govt and employers who
>> can offer lower wages, less benefits, worse conditions etc. and make more profit. If we
>> let this happen then a century of improved working conditions would go out of the
>> door!
>>
I conclude that you have a glass half full attitude, and you are prone to exaggeration (just a tiny bit or a whole lot more, maybe) .
|
The RMT approved a similar scheme around four years ago.
Now, however, the union is fast losing its power and is desperately seeking to redress the balance.
I was once a very reluctant union member because it operated a closed shop. No union membership, no job.
Not exactly democracy was it? But such strictures ensured that the union leadership and their disciples lived quite a comfortable life without having to do very much - strikes were rare and the union's input was extremely minimal to its members' well being.
|
|
I've just watched that Peter. Fascinating.
|
The strike is a result of the power struggle within the NUR. Bob Crowe was a tough troublesome old git, often seen as a dinosaur, but he was extremely canny and very commercially pragmatic. The vacuum left by his passing is trying to be filled by various wannabes within the union and none of them come close to Crowes abilities.
Having guards on most trains is a no brainer. There is plenty of DOO* incidents to prove its a safety hazard, there is no fiscal argument because a guard can easily pay his wages with excess fares and revenue protection activities and at the end of the day in the event of a serious operational incident, the presence of a guard is vital.
*Usually long trains, large passenger loads, curving platforms. There is an extensive list of accidents that easily be used by the NUR to quickly sway passenger opinion on their side, but they wont highlight it because they can reflect badly on the drivers involved.
I despise unions, ironically in this case not be cause they are being unreasonable, but because they are doing a really crap job and could have had this won a year ago.
|
Having guards on most trains is a no brainer. There is plenty of DOO* incidents to prove its a safety hazard, there is no fiscal argument because a guard can easily pay his wages with excess fares and revenue protection activities and at the end of the day in the event of a serious operational incident, the presence of a guard is vital.
Could you expand on why one side says they are perfectly safe and yet the other a high risk? Only thing I could find is that the DOO trains are only suitable for small trains. Is that it?
|
>> Could you expand on why one side says they are perfectly safe and yet the
>> other a high risk? Only thing I could find is that the DOO trains are
>> only suitable for small trains. Is that it?
DOO is suitable for low capacity non commuter short trains, bit not for longer trains in high capacity overcrowded situations. There were 30 DOO reportable dispatch incidents with 3 resulting in life changing industries last year.
In the event of a train crash, the guard has important duties to perform, a list of duties that a driver alone can not carry out. Not only that, passengers like the presence of a guard. It would be a piece of cake to get passengers on side with the union stance, something the union have woefully failed to do.
|
Thanks i thought it might be something similar.
It would be a piece of cake to get
>> passengers on side with the union stance, something the union have woefully failed to do.
Can't be that difficult to do, the reasons why aren't overly technical.
|
>> So I did chuckle when watching this (a BBC4 programme on the construction of the
>> Victoria Line) when it got the section on automation and how all the driver really
>> had to do was open and close the doors...
Its not very well known, (because the union don't want it as common knowledge) that most tube lines are now automated, and the driver only opens and closes doors. The Jubilee line is fully set up for complete driverless operation and could operate exactly like the DLR.
|
>> Happy New Year Z.
And to you sir
|
Q for Zero:
Is there anything different about the implementation of DOO on Southern compared to earlier schemes going back to Bedford/St Pancras etc?
|
>> Q for Zero:
>>
>> Is there anything different about the implementation of DOO on Southern compared to earlier schemes
>> going back to Bedford/St Pancras etc?
Longer trains, curving platforms, newer video systems, including train side mounted ones. Didn't Bedpan also keep station staff for dispatch duties? Southern have dumped them.
Of course the unmentioned point (by the union) is the change in rosters brought about by DOO. Which is why ASLEF are working to rule.
Ironically South Eastern, which shares some of the Southern routes and the same (but different liveried) EMUs are fully guard rostered with no plans to change.
|
Thanks Z. I suspected as much, and watching that underlined it for me!
|
I am quite surprised that there aren't more automated / driverless trains, considering they must be much easier to program than driverless cars?
To be honest though, I would prefer drivers and guards on trains!
A couple of recent incidents on the trains suggests guards are necessary.
First was a teen that had a heart attack on the train. Eldest and a couple of nurses did the necessary and kept the teen alive until the next station. The guard ensured that emergency services were ready at the station. I know this is rare, but how much is a life worth?
Second was a broken ticket machine and no permit to travel machine at an unmanned station and no guard on the train to buy a ticket from. Fracas at the other end when the station guard wanted to issue a fine despite eldest seeking him out to make the payment for the ticket.
Eldest, being all of 5 feet 2 inches, weighed down by a rucksack full of textbooks just blocked the entry barriers and refused to move until the station guard issued her the ticket and no fine!
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 31 Dec 16 at 13:42
|
|
A train driver's point of view: tinyurl.com/h4tts6m
|
And of course the train driver would be the first one to be prosecuted if there were an "accident" on the line!
To be honest, I don't blame them. If I were a driver I would report every single faulty CCTV, blurry screen etc. etc.
|
Southern Raul / Victoria Line - sooty123
