I want to post this in my quest to make you all a little more aware of how the transport industry operates in this country. I am very, very proud of this even though I had nothing to do with setting it up.
A full time working lorry driver was so touched by the death of the Polish driver in Berlin this week he set this up.
www.gofundme.com/van9vwuk?rcid=72d235b5997541b5915b02c8349b3a9b%20
We all pulled together for a fellow lorry driver regardless of his nationality and what a result.
I really don't want to stir up old arguments, certainly not over Christmas but a great many lorry drivers voted for Brexit and a great many were branded as racists as a result wherever they went.
I think this proves otherwise.
Pat
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And how do we know that the cash will reach the family of the driver? At the very least 7% will not.
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93% of that total to a widow in Poland will help tremendously.
Remind me to rain on your parade sometime.
Pat
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...and for the record, I didn't give you the scowly face Mappy.
Pat
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I don't want to attract a hate storm but I can't help my belief that a knee-jerk reaction to throw money at every issue solves any real problems, practical or emotional.
'Sorry you haven't got a husband any more but here's lots of money' doesn't resonate with me, I'm afraid.
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Well if your without money and now without a husband, a large sum of money (as has now been raised) will solve all manner of practical problems. But then it's not meant to solve every problem either.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 22 Dec 16 at 13:25
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>> Well if your without money and now without a husband, a large sum of money
>> (as has now been raised) will solve all manner of practical problems. But then it's
>> not meant to solve every problem either.
Not convinced.
What about all the other families who last the bread winner over the last few days, but didn't make the headlines?
What about them?
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Not convinced.
Not convinced about what?
>> What about them?
>>
Well if you want to help them you can start a similar fund raising effort. Anyone can set one up.
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I slightly agree as far as emotional problems go, but worrying about loss of income and waiting for insurance pay outs is something any bereaved person can do without.
Practical problems in this sort of situation are endless and are mostly of a financial nature, so yes, this will certainly help to ease those and give a bit of security instead of fear for the future.
Pat
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I just had a look at the page and it's good to see they have reached their £50k target.
There seem to have been many people posting comments doubting whether the money will reach the widow (i.e. whether it's a scam), and some fairly "robust"£ responses. What a tricky situation. I do think people are entitled to have some reassurance that it is genuine and ought not get slagged off because they raise the question. Conversely therecould be better ways of phrasing things which could cause less offence.
Either way, it is a great effort and is to be applauded.
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Welcome to my world!
The comments are all from lorry drivers....so are the donations.
Whatever you do these days will bring with it doubters, just look above my post.
The only difference her is we have polite comments, on there we have people like me who say it as they see it.
If you read all the updates Gofundme have given that assurance but as on here, some only read what they want to see.
I get very cynical with people these days.
With the exception of the two mods, smokie and RP, (Thanks, you two) no-one has said well done to the lorry drivers for 'looking after one of their own'......but criticism is never backward at coming forward.
>>Conversely therecould be better ways of phrasing things which could cause less offence.<<
Conversely those comments are not really 'robust' in my world and no lorry driver would have been offended:)
I'm sure I live in a parallel universe to you lot at times!
Pat
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The only difference her is we have polite comments, on there we have people like me who say it as they see it.
Perfectly possible to do both at the same time of course.
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I do all the time....now you can see just how restrained I am on here sooty:)
It's hard to quantify.
We all call foreign drivers flipflops ( because most of them wear them in the cabs).
It's a derogatory term but widely used and foreign drivers hate it.
It's not a racist term but when it's a flipflop in trouble that barrier has gone completely, and that's good to see.
Pat
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1 We all call foreign drivers flipflops
2 It's a derogatory term but widely used and foreign drivers hate it.
3 It's not a racist term
Hmmmm.
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CG just lighten up a bit.
I'm beginning to regret ever posting this because I just seem to end up defending my colleagues because some people are determined to turn something good into something bad.
Now could this be why I prefer animals to people?
Pat
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Flipflop - Maybe not racist - homophobic? I will let you look up the urban slang,
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I'm not really fussed what the technical term for it is.
As far as we're all concerned it's banter, no more and no less.
The donations on the above link absolutely prove that.
If I could spell it I would tell you what the EU drivers call us, but there are too many consonants and no vowels so I'd be wasting my time...there's a couple of zcsz's in it though!
Pat
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It's certainly not a term of endearment and I'm not sure why any amount of "lightening up" would make me see why calling people names you know they hate is an acceptable practice.
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I give up totally.
Some people will only ever see the bad, the controversial, what they want to see in everything and can never accept that things are different for other people who are familiar with other nationalities.
I stressed I didn't want this to cause problems so Mods, would you delete the whole thread please.
I have the Christmas spirit if no-one else has and at the moment I feel totally like a fish out of water on this forum.
Pat
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I took it to mean it winds them up a bit. I'm sure there are things they "hate" a lot more.
Either way, I don't think it makes all lorry drivers who use it racists.
Merry Christmas:)
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>> I stressed I didn't want this to cause problems
It hasn't as far as I'm concerned.
>> so Mods, would you delete the whole thread please.
Quite happy to let it remain, unless you *really* want us to remove it?
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>> I stressed I didn't want this to cause problems so Mods, would you delete the
>> whole thread please.
I don't want my carefully crafted prose deleted.
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I know what pat is driving at, hate perhaps isn't the right word, annoying would perhaps be better. But the word is in a context of banter, you can try and annoy people and wind them up but not do it in a unfriendly way quite the opposite. That type of work environment isn't for everyone, some perhaps suited to a 'dilbert' type environment.
Maybe it's hard to explain.
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>> I'm not sure why any amount of "lightening up" would make me see why calling people names you know they hate is an acceptable practice.
God, you're incredibly prissy at times.
Have you never heard the phrase "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" before?
As already said, lighten up a bit.
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>>Have you never heard the phrase "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" before?
I've heard it, but its bowl-locks
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>> CG just lighten up a bit.
>>
There are certainly some uptight people here, good job I don't throw a tantrum every time I am called a matlot in a derogatory manner by one of you!
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I had a look through the comments, albeit only the first 60 or so comments, on that page, i can't say I found anything too robust or needing restraining.
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>> ) no-one has
>> said well done to the lorry drivers for 'looking after one of their own'..
I did indirectly - I gave you a smiley.
It's easy to carp and say if you can't help everyone in the world then it's not worth helping even one. But a little charity is always worthwhile, and if lorry drivers believe it begins at home in their own profession than well done to them.
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'Sorry you haven't got a husband any more but here's lots of money' doesn't resonate with me, I'm afraid.
I disagree - whilst the money won't replace her husband, it will provide a good safety net. Having no money after a breadwinner dies suddenly is a big problem for the bereaved - the money won't replace the poor sap who died doing his job but it will take a huge chunk of worry away for some time.
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Well done, Pat.
Some people's reactions make me truly despair.
I just hope they never have to go through a similar experience.
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There are some people whose mission in life is permanently "to be offended" on behalf on someone else!.
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I didn't think it necessary to post anything on here but did donate. I'm with RP, Pat, et al thinking it's a help to have money in terrible times like these. The time is still terrible but soon worry about immediate bills is no longer an issue.
I should have said well done Pat earlier. I'd just donated anonymously and moved on and didn't see a need to post.
But with the negative comments here I felt I would.
Again well done to the drivers organising this.
P.S. Most of the named contributors seem to be Polish. And I still don't get the negativity here.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 22 Dec 16 at 19:44
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I think it's lovely that people donate funds to help the deceased's family. I don't know the economics of being a lorry driver, but imagine a Polish lorry driver won't be earning mega bucks, and being murdered in such tragic circumstances must be terrible for his family.
As it is for all families of those who suddenly die, no matter what the circumstances.
It won't be much condolence for the bereaved, but it helps with any short to medium term financial worries in such stressful times.
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The fund has is front page news on today's Metro newspaper. Fund has reached nearly £94,000 (over 6200 donors, so about £15 per person on average) at time of posting.
Latest update from GoFundMe admin is that they have a problem sending funds to Poland: "In addition, I should clarify that our payment processor, Stripe, do not currently support Poland, and so we will need to find a way to get the funds sent to a bank account in one of their supported countries."
As for the different opinions and disagreements above:
I have no problem with anyone wanting to set up this type of charitable giving. Someone above questioned why this one person is deserving when there are countless others who could be helped too. But that is always the case with any charity. People will support those they feel most connected to; whether through family connections, profession/trade, ethnicity, religion, exposure to a country through tourism, or just being moved by images on the news. So someone like Malala Yousafzai gets flown to the UK for treatment and even gets a Noble Peace prize, whereas some would argue there were others more deserving. But such is the lottery of compassion.
I have no problem with banter and name-calling, as long as it does not offend the recipient and it is not bullying disguised as banter. Society finds certain behaviour and words/phrases acceptable in one generation but later considers it totally abhorrent. The generational divide on acceptable banter is obvious when you compare the comments of readers of the Guardian with readers of Guido's order-order.com
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The GoFundMe thing is fine. Why not let heart strings be plucked occasionally?
>>Flipflops
I know if I referred to someone by a "class name" like that at work I would be shown the door.
Quite rightly too. It is the little snipes that make it difficult for anyone different to fit in and could be considered to be bullying, even though it is not meant to be.
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>> >>Flipflops
>>
>> I know if I referred to someone by a "class name" like that at work
>> I would be shown the door.
It isn't a ''class name'', it's banter. No more and no less.
>> Quite rightly too. It is the little snipes that make it difficult for anyone different
>> to fit in and could be considered to be bullying, even though it is not
>> meant to be.
Banter
[mass noun] The playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks:
‘there was much good-natured banter’
There is a difference, a huge difference and by trying to make it something more sinister it just encourages the great divide between nationalities.
We certainly have enough of that and don't need anymore.
Happy Christmas
Pat
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It seems to me that the issue of the use of the term "flipflops" (a new one on me, I must admit) is really about "intention" versus "perception".
Pat's case rests on her entirely friendly and non-threatening attitude when she uses the term. Others here perceive the term to be unpleasant to a greater or lesser degree. The key point, of course, is how the people referred to see it and whether they are offended by it.
It is actually even more complicated, because there is a sub-text here. It is sometimes a fashion to take offence, on one's own or another's behalf, at entirely innocent comments, a fashion fostered by out-of-hand political correctness; and there is also a post-Trump fashion to ride rough-shod over anything that might give offence - a sort of inverted political correctness.
On the one hand, an excessive sensitivity to innocuous teasing and on the other, a nasty obliviousness to others' feelings.
It is a very difficult area.
As a footnote, often minorities will use what would otherwise be a derogatory term between themselves as a mark of solidarity, and if an outsider is drawn into this it is a mark of acceptance. For example, I was once told a joke by some Jewish students which hinged on the word "y**" - a word which I, a non-Jew, would never have used. I took it as evidence that they were in a small way not seeing me totally as an outsider.
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There has been quite some discussion over "banter" being used to mask unacceptable behaviour, especially in schools and education I believe. See
www.byc.org.uk/news/racist-taunting-dismissed-as-banter-in-uk-schools-says-youth-select-committee
and
www.bristolpost.co.uk/girls-threatened-with-rape-and-groped-in-bristol-schools-dismissed-as-banter-and-lad-culture/story-29708807-detail/story.html
and many more (Google, of course!)
Personally, I have been known to dish out sarky "banter" to my mates but I think they know me well enough to not take me too seriously and I do recognise there are lines which I don't (or at least try not to) cross.
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Pat,
I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, what you use innocently as a bit of banter gets subjugated by spiteful people to become an insult, a reason for not employing someone and then a reason for beating someone up!
I know you wouldn't and I know many others wouldn't but some would and do and that's the danger.
I have seen it over something as innocuous as hair colours....
"Hi Ginge!"
"Coming for a pint Ginge?"
"Oh, why have you invited him, he's a Ginge!"
"I'm not interviewing a Ginge for that job!"
Crude but true.
BTW I didn't scowlie you. I have relatives that still use derogatory terms for black people! They don't mean harm by it, I think, but then perhaps they do, who knows!?
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One man's banter is another man's bullying.
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>> One man's banter is another man's bullying.
Spot on. There's a fine and indistinct line between the two.
In her first year at Uni Miss B was in a mixed male/female Hall of Residence. A couple of the lads were nice enough guys sober bit utter pfd's with a few beers in them. They thought infantile sexualised teasing was 'just banter'.
It wasn't.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 Dec 16 at 23:07
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I don't see how raising money for a widow can possibly be a bad thing. It will not, of course, replace a partner, but it must be one less worry.
However, I don't know how many people are in the transport industry, but its a b***** lot. I don't know how many of those in the transport industry are racist, but its some.
So a few giving to such a collection, whilst a good thing, proves nothing one way or the other about the industry as a whole.
On the other hand a willingness to use derogatory terms against a group of people whilst knowing that they dislike it, does rather make a statement.
At least of ignorance, if not of bullying or bigotry.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 24 Dec 16 at 21:07
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>>does rather make a statement<<
It does. I absolutely agree.
It makes a statement to them that they are one of us.
Part of the whole multicultural group that work in the industry and accepted as being the same as those of us are who are born in this country.
They do the same to us, and once again it shows they feel at home and comfortable enough to 'take the mick' just as they do with their fellow countrymen.
I've seen the way some of them get treated at delivery points by jumped up security men with clip boards and Goods In staff.
They think because they struggle a bit with the language they can be derogatory and downright rude to them.
....and of course they are far to polite to retaliate.
Now that's what I call racism.
A bit of banter between *workmates most certainly isn't.
* Note the word 'workmates' not foreigners/EU/Poles or whatever nationality you want to call them.
Since it's almost Christmas Day here how about if we can't say anything nice we say nothing at all for 24 hours.
Pat
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>>It's a derogatory term but widely used and foreign drivers hate it."
Clearly we have slightly different ideas about banter.
>> Note the word 'workmates' not foreigners/EU/Poles or whatever nationality you want to call them.
But you introduced the word "foreign", not me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 24 Dec 16 at 21:59
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Happy Christmas Mark.
Pat
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Ahhh, how sweet, it won't last. :-)
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A few years back a French girl, "young and very naïve, speaking little English" (her father's description) was give a lift by her truck driver uncle from eastern France and dropped off at the Chieveley service station alone. I believe his destination was north, hers west. She was picked up by a British HGV driver, raped, killed and her body was hidden in some roadside wood. Word went round fellow truckers and it was one of them who found the body. (Incidentally, the killer lived a short distance from me.)
Also some time back, a British fireman and his family were stranded in New York. The NY firemen's' union got word of this, feasted them and raised the cash to get them home.
Can posters quote other cases of this inter-professional solidarity?
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Fund-raising trucker to get formal thanks
A trucker who raised nearly £200,000 for relatives of the driver killed in the Berlin Christmas market attack is to be thanked by the Polish ambassador at a ceremony in London.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38549555
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It is nice to see that people are willing to help folks in need.We hear so many horror stories about the human race behaviour it can also go the other way.
The trucker live can't be replaced but at least his family has no money worries.
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Redress the balance a bit? - R.P.
