I will keep this breif, I have been toying with the idea of in the next few years buying some land and then putting a static caravan on it with the few to building something a bit longer lasting.
I am aware of the land scam but I have seen some land quite cheap with planning permision for a bungalow etc, I am right in assuming if I wanted to put a caravan or chalet on it it would be quite easy to change planning permision?
I realise I cannot buy a farm and legally stick property on it without permision etc.
Just wondered if anybody had experience in buying landing then getting pp?
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Dont have first hand experience, but in this area if there is any chance of getting any kind of PP then the seller will have already done it due to the massive difference it makes to the value. Most sellers are switched on enough, but its worth ringing the planning department. Most are happy to have an off the record chat about what may / may not be allowed - at least you can rule out what they really wont allow.
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You've not watched Grand Designs / Kevin McCloud have you? A lot of people want to do it, finding suitable plots is difficult, and there are huge amounts of stress in the project management. It is no doubt hugely satisfying when it succeeds. Good luck!
JH
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Question 1, if it has planning permission, why is it cheap.
YOu do realise you wont (in these current times) get a mortgage for just land?
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If you have full planning permission for a bungalow, common sense suggests you will be able to put a static on the site while building the bungalow.
I've no idea how long these things take, but as a static owner, I can tell you living in one during a harsh winter is not to be recommended.
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Several points to watch:
1) If the land really does have pp for a bungalow it will not be cheap
2) There is outline pp and full detailed pp.
3) If a plot has pp for a bungalow, that is what you have to build. PP is time limited, and lapses if you do not complete the building. Also although you have deemed ancillary pp for a static caravan to live in while you are building, it lapses once you have built the real building.
4) pp may not be for full 365 day residence. It might only be for a holiday home.
5) pp may be limited to agricultural purposes
6) you can put a touring caravan anywhere, but I think you are limited to a certain number of days' use. If you want to make it permanent and gradually start adding extensions etc it pays to pick a very remote part of the country and not make it too obvious. But they will always be after you.
Good luck!
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Never seen it, but I think its on the C4 website so I could watch them. There are ways round the holiday home thing but then I would need a proper residents so that loop hole is too tricky. My aunty lives in a carravan but its on a five star holiday park and but they do also have an official address above one of the shops they own.
Just can't see any other way of getting on the property lader with even flats being over £100k.
I would want to do it all legally rather than live like a punk :).
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you need to earn more money.
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>> you need to earn more money.
>>
There's a very easy way of getting a house for nothing. Just marry someone who already has one.
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...My aunty lives in a carravan but its on a five star holiday park...
Rattle,
I expect you'll find aunty lives on a five star residential - not holiday - park, of which there are quite a few.
They tend to be aimed at the retired or semi-retired - some have no kids rules or no one under 50.
The 'caravans' are often more like pre-fabs and cost almost as much as a flat.
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Easiest answer is to buy a property somewhere cheaper! Or earn more money...
If you buy a land with PP then quite often it is time limited so you'd have to at least lay the foundations to keep it. Also planning departments do not like people sticking caravans on a site and living in it.
If you want to get on the ladder then get something cheap that needs work. Do it up. Sell it. Use the profit to get something better. If you say it is your main residence and make the effort to live there for a few months at least then you avoid capital gains :-)
Check out repossessions. They're always much cheaper. Quite often houses are cheaper than flats.
Most bits of land with PP for a property are at least 25k. Most are 40-80k. If you have that kind of cash then a mortgage on a 100k flat is child's play.
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www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-27623843.html?premiumA=true
34k shared ownership. Cheap as chips!
50k full ownership
www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-26978986.html
You clearly haven't looked very hard!!!!
Last edited by: teabelly on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 21:32
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Land with PP will probably get nod for caravan whilst home is being built - they may limit the PP for the caravan to say 18 or 24 months - long enough to build a house but you would be evicted if you stayed longer than the PP for the caravan.
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My aunties is a holiday park, they have to move out for two months of the year. They pay council tax on their flat above the shop which their kids live in.
My idea is I wanted a self sufficient life style, if I bought some land and then put a static on it the only bills would be council tax, loan payments and bills.
The problem with shared ownership flats is the rent is still too high.
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if it was that easy, people would be doing it everywhere.
Can you tarmac drives?
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>> if it was that easy, people would be doing it everywhere.
>>
>> Can you tarmac drives?
LOL
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"a self sufficient life style" - you're not talking about 2 pigs, chickens, grow your own clothes I presume?
JH
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I found you one for 50k with FULL OWNERSHIP. And one for 75k FULL OWNERSHIP. Also found another in Bredbury (nr Didsbury) with FULL OWNERSHIP for 85k so they are out there (I'll leave you to find that yourself.... )
If you can't afford a 35k mortgage and the rent on top then you can barely afford to live on your own anyway. Cut out what you don't need to spend on going to blackpool and getting pie eyed and you probably would. HINT!
Owning your own place means sacrifice.
If you have loan payments and bills you still aren't self sufficient. Unless you are prepared to live in a log cabin with no gas, electric or mains water, crap in the woods and grow all your own food it is an illusion.
If you bought a flat the only payments would be council tax, loan payments and bills! If you bought the right place and did it up and made some profit on each you could probably be mortgage free in no time.
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Don't fret Rattle. You are young and property has a way down to go yet - no matter what some might hope.
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Best not reply on property prices dropping dramatically - a lot of people are still in work and likely to remain so even after The Coalition cuts' details are revealed in October. There maybe many regional differences in the conditions, but many 'experts' seem to think the market will flat-line (tread water?) for 4-5 years, despite merciless lenders forcing wider profit margins and hefty fees to be paid by borrowers.
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if you think property prices in the UK will decline significantly you are wrong. They are, at the moment as low as they will go (within 5%). On Rattles income,this is an insignificant drop.
The UK has a unique property portfolio, too many people, not enough land means that property prices will never decline in value in the long term.
If you want to buy property, you have to bite the bullet and jump on the bandwagon. For most this means significant risk, and in the early years, significant financial hardship.
I suspect most of us have had to take that step.
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I well remember the doomsters in the 90's when be bought our existing home, and how wrong they were then. I wonder just how wrong they are likely to be now?
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A lot of the doomsters are sell to renters. Some like Ed Stern from Capital Economics are green that they thought the housing market would top out in 2004 and have sold up and discovered they can't buy anything. Housepricecrash has been shouting crash, crash crash for years. Usual jealous types that couldn't or wouldn't buy when they wanted somewhere to live so were vitriolic of those that did.
Experts don't seem to be any better at prediction than a man at a bus stop. The whole prices/earnings multiple ratio is well and truly busted. I don't think now reflects how house prices will go any more. Earnings are lagging behind. It's not that houses are too expensive, it's that wages are too low.
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"it's that wages are too low." and they're going to continue going down. Many jobs are in competition with people in other countries on FAR lower wages. The company I worked for has moved its expenses processing to Poland. Then there's manufacturing and call centres. Which leaves competition for the remaining jobs. This allows employers to offer lower salaries. Head man at company I worked for on one of his teleconfs to the troops said "the UK has an objective not to increase its salary bill. We find when people leave that we can get good replacements at lower salaries". Or words to that effect. There are areas where they pulled the wool over their own eyes but there were people in their thirties on salaries that half what I may have expected. How they afforded pension / mortgage / kids etc I have no idea. Debt I guess.
JH
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And when the base rate starts rising from .5 per cent - what will that do to mortgage repayments that many can only just afford now?
Take off those rose-tinted glasses. I'm 60 next week and I don't think I'm going to be living long enough to see a return to the sort of conditions some folks seem to think are the norm.
Cassandra? (see Wikipaedia if you don't know) Yup, that's me.
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It might be the end of the world, or it might not.
Interest rates will rise from 0.5%. But then inflation may rise too.
Teabelly>>www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-27623843.html
?premiumA=true
>>34k shared ownership. Cheap as chips!
That's sheltered housing for the over 55s, teabelly, LOL!
That said there's no shortage of property in Manchester's environs available for pennies.
www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.aspx?edid=00&salerent=0&pid=6720459
And if you cannot afford it, try getting a job.
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I don't see how prices can be shown on these flats as they're auctions. There's one there, in a modern block apparently, showing as £20k. I think they may be leading people up the garden path. I wonder if the area is complete with it's own drug dealers and ASBO gangs?
That said, I wonder what the problem is, or if Rattle has actually worked out what it is. Shortly after starting work I became accustomed to having people come to me with "problems". In reality what they had brought me was a half baked solution which wasn't working. Would I make it work please? In time I learnt to recognise this and to dig for the real problem so that a good, proper solution could be found. Given Rattle's recent posts this looks like another solution with a hole in it rather than a problem.
So what's the problem? It might be best to think for a while. I'm sure you'll take that as intended, there's no micky taking going on.
JH
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>> >>
>> The UK has a unique property portfolio, too many people, not enough land means that
>> property prices will never decline in value in the long term.
>>
>>
It also has a unique obsession with owning one's house, which causes a never-ending supply of would-be buyers.
But other countries are not like that. A Swiss friend once said that in Switzerland hardly anyone owned their own house, most people rented. Houses were far too expensive for private owners to afford, only company landlords, and a few lucky families who had inherited houses from long ago.
The UK is possibly poised to split into a two-nation economy - those who have inherited houses, and those who are condemned (ie "choose") to rent indefinitely. This is how it used to be before about 1920. Many people lived in homes they had rented for years, sometimes for generations.
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But Cliff, the UK has a home ownership rate of 67%. Two thirds of people live in their own homes. The rest should NOT be encouraged by the Government to do so.
I'm not sure I buy the ", too many people, not enough land means that property prices will never decline in value in the long term." argument. They tried that one in Tokyo, and it was true... until it ceased to be true.
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>> But Cliff, the UK has a home ownership rate of 67%. Two thirds of people
>> live in their own homes. The rest should NOT be encouraged by the Government to
>> do so.
Do you own property mappy?
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>> Do you own property mappy?
Yes thank you, Zero, but like you I earn rather more than the average wage.
If two thirds of the population own their own homes (gov't statistic) then the remaining third should not be encouraged to as:
1. They don't earn enough to service the mortgage
2. They don't have enough equity to be able to buy without the risk of ending up in negative equity and thus unable to sell and move to find a new job.
3. They need more mobility than comes with owning a property.
It makes no sense for somebody in Rattle's position to feel pushed into buying a home. He has no family and no need for ownership, and he certainly cannot afford it. Let alone should the Government be trying to subsidise his purchase of a property through shared ownership.
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>> It makes no sense for somebody in Rattle's position .............. He has no family and no need for ownership,
Does he want to live at home or pay rent for the rest of his life?
>> and he certainly cannot afford
>> it.
Most of us had to make a sacrifice to buy our first property, and subsequent properties. Put me in charge of Rattle's finances and I guarantee to prove that he can afford it.
It's all part of growing up. In any case, buying his own house could do wonders for his business reputation.
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I am sure Rattle could afford something if he wanted to. But as many have said we all had to make sacrifices to afford a first home.
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L'es
Whilst I see what you say, he has just taken on a car loan and just taken on the additional expense of renting a shed.
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Indeed. For what it's worth I think the era of popular home ownership - and it has only been a few decades - will eventually be seen as an aberration.
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I wouldnt call growing for 50 years just a "few decades"
I cant see it as an aberation, nor can I ever see my property purchase as a poor investment, nor my parent first purchase 50 years ago.
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Rattle, if you put a caravan on a plot of land and hope to get planning permission for a house etc (which will be time limited), flaws in your plan as I see them:
- How will you get water into the caravan? There will be no water supply to the land - there could even be a cost to connect to the supply.
- How will you get power to the caravan? There will be no electricity supply to the land...
- How will you get rid of waste water from the caravan? There will be no drains from the land...
... you can see where I'm going?
Also working on computers, you will have no phone line and no broadband. And you cannot take clients computers home to an unsecured location to work on them so you will also need business premises.
And raising the money to build even if there is planning permission is not insignificant.
Surely better to save a good deposit and get a place somewhere cheaper (north Manchester) and then do it up, sell it at some point at a profit and then move on.
But to get a good mortgage rate you will need a 25% deposit.
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When I first started work my boss told me of when he used to live in a caravan. Can't remember why he was doing it now, I think it may have been "digs" while he was new to the area. We're talking a small tourer here, not a residential thing. Anyway, one of the joys was in frying your breakfast whilst still in bed. Except in winter when the gas bottle froze and you had to take it to the toilet block to defrost. Not recommended!
JH
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In follow up to what I said above, a cousin's husband got a farm building and borrowed money to do it up. This was a farmhouse so no real issue about planning permission. There was no water, sewers, power, etc. The water ended up coming from a local stream which provided ample clean water. They got a cesspit. And managed to get connected to the electricity in the end after a battle - they had been quoted many thousands originally and those costs were fair considering how the necessary infrastructure to get to them was not there.
Not sure if they had a phone line and I'm sure ADSL was out of the question even today.
and they never did get a proper road to the property. They got an old Land Rover and swapped vehicles before continuing to the farmhouse. And eventually they divorced but that had little to do with the house.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Aug 10 at 18:28
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My uncle did something similar, but he bought a run down house which was built in the 1700's but had the original 1930s wiring. He rebuilt it but as it had been a house before there was no problem getting things connected, he even had broadband.
His place was semi rural though, it came complete with a farm he rented out but the nearest village was only a mile away.
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Where roughly in Manchester near to where you live do you think there is land that could get planning permission. If it existed it would be worth quite a bit I would think.
Near the Alexandra Hospital in Cheadle the old Bleachworks development was done and houses were small and expensive. And the clue to the clear up problems were the name Bleachworks. It used to be the site of a bleach works where they (I think) used to treat animal hides etc. And next to the large private hospital too. And a cemetery.
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For a flat I have been keeping an eye on Eccles as it seems to be about the cheapest area in Manchester which isn't all rough and its only 20 minutes drive from where my business is based. The only issue with Eccles is I have an agreement by one of my friends who has a business there keep of my patch and I will keep of yours.
I have thought about the ultilities problem and obviously I could not buy some purely rural land it would need to be next to a farm with existing ultilities so you just plumb into that via sub meters.
I suppose buying a run down flat and doing it up does have some of the original thinking behind it. I am not bothered about moving out yet but it is something I need to think about. I would need a part time job too but that is another issue.
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>> The only issue with Eccles is I have an agreement by one of my friends who has a business
>> there keep of my patch and I will keep of yours.
But can you not live in his patch and still do business in yours? Two separate things surely.
And going back to what has been said above, if there is planning permission, utilities etc then the land will not be cheap. It will only be cheap if there is no PP. And then you run the risk of the council saying no.
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Which is really what my thread was about, how diificult would be to buy land with no PP but close enough to some settlements to get ultilities connected. It seems from this thread and general google browsing its a lot harder than I ever imagined. I've seem some land quite cheap in some areas on residential roads but they tend to be in dodgier areas where I could buy a flat for not much more.
The idea of buying land is really that I could have done it in stages but then I suppose I could buy a run down place cheaply, still live at home (to avoid a lof of the extra bills) until some of the mortgage is paid off and then slowly do it up.
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>> Which is really what my thread was about, how diificult would be to buy land
>> with no PP but close enough to some settlements to get ultilities connected. It seems
>> from this thread and general google browsing its a lot harder than I ever imagined.
I would have thought that there are thousands of people out there with the same thoughts and hopes, all fighting over the same tiny bits of ground. I would have thought that most avenues have already been explored, which is why it is so difficult to make a success of it unless you have plenty of money e.g. Grand Designs
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I know plenty of people that have put large caravans on land without pp,
The 'trick' is that they knock out a few kids and then if the council wants to evict them, they've gotta re-home them.
I know another geezer who bought a bit of woodland, cleared it and stuck an old bus on it, all done out like a mobile home complete with wood burner, he hasn't got pp either I can assure you of that, he even lets like minded pot heads site their various types of vehicles and caravans on there if they cross his palm with Silver,
But hey! THIS is Cornwall :)
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>> Just can't see any other way of getting on the property lader with even flats
>> being over £100k.
Cut down on the booze and start saving for a deposit.
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Tis always better to buy a property standing that has all the necessary connections. Then EXTEND the thing. Of course the criteria is that it has to have enough space to do so without compromising anything. I turned a modern 2 bed Bungalow (no Dining Room) into a 4 Bed (with Dining room). Prior to extending I had permission for a new dwelling in the garden, but thought that that would compromise the original. The original developer clearly missed a trick. Went in at 50k in 1993 and exited at 235 in 2003.
Be VERY cautious. If it seems to good to be true it usually is.
Best.......M
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>Went in at 50k in 1993 and exited at 235 in 2003.<
Very nice but what did it cost you in the meantime and what did you have to pay for the next place?
Sorry to harp on about this but, ultimately, you have to live somewhere and the only way to take real money out of a property transaction - ie without piling it on a mortgage - is to trade down or get out.
As we did.
Cassandra.
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Being in the business for 35 years I have a bit of a handle on how it works.
M
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>> Very nice but what did it cost you in the meantime and what did you
>> have to pay for the next place?
Given that rent and mortgage are similar amounts, why pay someone else mortgage?
>> Sorry to harp on about this but, ultimately, you have to live somewhere and the
>> only way to take real money out of a property transaction - ie without piling
>> it on a mortgage - is to trade down or get out.
>> As we did.
You couldnt do that if you were renting. Sure you have to have a place to live, but by buying rather than renting, you are living in an appreciating asset, that it may be possible to take some equity out of at a later date, ie downsize.
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>you are living in an appreciating asset<
Always? How does it appreciate if all other residential property is appreciating as well?
>in a nice area. If we decide in the future to move overseas, we can rent this for at least £800pm<
If only it were that simple. I know so many people over here who have gone that way and now spend their time sorting out non-payers, damage, endless redecorating, etc, etc.
I think I'll duck out of this debate now - it worked for us but we were lucky. The future could be very different.
Cassandra
(actually, I might take up this name - it suits me...)
Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Tue 10 Aug 10 at 11:18
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>> >you are living in an appreciating asset<
>> Always? How does it appreciate if all other residential property is appreciating as well?
Always? If you look at the long term, yes.
How? take this practical example. I can sell my property, buy a similar property in Chichester (a move we are thinking about) and pocket £50k.
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We downsized and stayed in the same area and after buying the new house and paying off the mortgage there was some left over. If I didn't have a mortgage then there was about £100k left over. We also had sellers fees, stamp duty etc to pay too.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 10 Aug 10 at 14:44
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>> the only way to take real money out of a property transaction - ie without piling it on a
>> mortgage - is to trade down or get out.
I take it you mean you traded down. As we did late last year. We sold in December and bought in May (took time to find a property) and house sat in the meantime for our son.
Cleared the mortgage and still have a sizeable house worth far more than the national average in a nice area. If we decide in the future to move overseas, we can rent this for at least £800pm and probably more.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 10 Aug 10 at 09:52
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>>>>in a nice area. If we decide in the future to move overseas, we can rent this for at least £800pm<<<<<<
so that is a one bedroom flat then! :)
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Not looked into rental prices. I was assuming at least £800pm. It's a three bed house. I would imagine £800pm is on the low side.
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Rattle
Move to France. There are loads of retired Brits who need a working computer but don't know a mouse from an ISP and can't speak French to get help.
For you - Property prices can be cheap, very cheap
www.france-for-sale.com/house/AI1572/pictures/m1/
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And the Charent Maritime is a nice area, had many a happy holiday down there
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Maybe the first two were a bit too much too take on. But if you really were thinking of a self build then this one is half way there already:
www.france-for-sale.com/bungalow/AM0325/index/
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Haha funny you should mention that it is an idea I have half been thinking about in a none serious way. However I do need to at least learn a bit of french before I even consider it :p.
Maybe its my challange to for 2010, learn how to say more than hello in French. I did try learning it at school but I never got on with langauges, it took me long enough to learn english.
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the only way to learn languages, is to go live there.
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Buying land and planning permision - mikeyb
