Absolutely disrespectful decision by Fifa! - The wearing of a discreet Poppy on an armband should be a Personal decision by the player, not governed by a regulatory body. I can understand if "Foreign" players don't wish to wear one, I wouldn't be insulted if they didn't, but I disagree with Fifa's reasoning that it is a political statement that may offend others! - and they proclaim to be trying to end racism in the sport! - this in my view only condones it.
;-(((((((
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The salient question here is whether it is political.
I think not.
The BBC can't think it is, because all of its presenters are now wearing one
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 3 Nov 16 at 11:31
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BBC policy is it's up to the presenter. No corporate line.
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>> BBC policy is it's up to the presenter. No corporate line.
I'm sure the BBC would not apply the same policy to what it considered to be a political badge.
Jon Snow decided not to wear one on TV and attracted criticism for it. The criticism of course was out of order, even ignoring the fact that he chose to wear one when not presenting.
I think it should be a personal choice. To criticise people for wearing, or not wearing, one is bullying.
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I think it should be a personal choice. To criticise people for wearing, or not wearing, one is bullying.
There is a breed of person who thinks it is their duty to take offence on behalf of others. One just has to ignore them!
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Borrowed from Facebook!
British soldier
Yesterday at 7:50am ·
I am not a badge of honour,
I am not a racist smear,
I am not a fashion statement,
To be worn but once a year,
I am not glorification
Of conflict or of war.
I am not a paper ornament
A token,
I am more.
I am a loving memory,
Of a father or a son,
A permanent reminder
Of each and every one.
I'm paper or enamel
I'm old or shining new,
I'm a way of saying thank you,
To every one of you.
I am a simple poppy
A Reminder to you all,
That courage faith and honour,
Will stand where heroes fall.
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>> BBC policy is it's up to the presenter. No corporate line.
>>
I'm not sure that I believe that. It's a remarkable coincidence that from a certain date everyone on the Beeb is wearing a poppy, including people in casual or work clothing being interviewed on farming type programmes.
I don't care whether you wear a poppy or not, but I hate to think that pressure is being applied to anyone.
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"The wearing of a discreet Poppy on an armband should be a Personal decision by the player"
So do you think either the FA or SFA are going to consult each player?
I really detest the poppy for what it has become - when I was at school it was to remember the fallen from the Great Wars. Now it has became a badge that must be worn or you are open to bullying. See the abuse the Irish footballer got for not wearing it. Or anyone who comes out with personal reasons for not wearing it.
We have a Prime Minister that stands up in Parliament accusing FIFA of being disrespectful to our troops, but she is doing nothing to help the ones that come back wounded, either mentally or physically. That is why the charity is needed!
Go fight a war that isn't ours to fight, get your legs blown off, come back and rely on charity to help you but we as a government will lambast anyone who disrespects you?
What are we doing having this at football? Were we really wanting to wear it on the chest - what does that mean every time the ball batters it, the player goes skidding along the surface etc? Is that not dis respectful?
So we are going to have two teams lining up, wearing poppy armbands, singing their national anthems in which they will both sing of trying to kill the others??
Farcical.
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While I appreciate your reasons Bobby, it really isn't about that at all.
It's about individual players choosing to wear a poppy on 11/11/16 if they want to.
Why should FIfa dictate to anyone whether they can pay respects in their own way?
It's not political, it's personal and Fifa would do well to get their own house in order before dictating to others.
Pat
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"Fifa would do well to get their own house in order before dictating to others"
Agreed
"It's about individual players choosing to wear a poppy on 11/11/16 if they want to."
I do not think it is at all. This is about Poppy fever that must be everywhere. England previously played on Remembrance day, think it was 11 years ago and never wore poppies. This is relatively new.
Why not have a Poppy display before the game, a collection for Poppy fund or whatever and get on with it? This is about the fear of anyone in the public view being seen without a poppy on.
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I fear you may have fallen into the trap of feeling offended on others behalf Bobby.
I absolutely get that you don't like what the poppy has become and I'm fine with that.
What you need to remember though is that many people simply want to wear a poppy on that day....surely stopping them is also a form of bullying?
Pat
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"surely stopping them is also a form of bullying?"
so all the doctors, nurses, kitchen staff that can't wear them for hygiene reasons are being bullied?
Or maybe when you are at your place of work you need to follow the rules set out? Of course, they can wear the poppy once they leave their place of work if so inclined.
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>> it has became
>> a badge that must be worn or you are open to bullying. See the abuse
>> the Irish footballer got for not wearing it. Or anyone who comes out with personal
>> reasons for not wearing it.
Some people think that that particular British footballer should have worn a poppy, rather than refusing.
Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 3 Nov 16 at 17:18
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Is it not personal choice?
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>> Is it not personal choice?
>>
When you ar not playing an international football game yes.
When you are playing a game governed by FIFA you should simply keep to their rules which state
"for all Matches, any form of advertising… of political, religious, commercial, personal statements, images and/or other announcements, is strictly prohibitedâ€.
Seems clear enough to me. What is it that people don't understand?
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>>Seems clear enough to me. What is it that people don't understand?<<
They didn't impose those rules for Ireland....that's what I don't understand. Simple really.
Pat
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Well clearly they should have. One mistake does not mean the rules should be ignored does it?
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A little research reveals that the Irish match to which you refer was a "friendly" and as such was not covered by the aforementioned rule
Keep to the rules and there is no problem.
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England have worn them before on armbands and I don't remember there being this fuss.
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I would suggest Fifa need to look at the corruption within and follow their own rules.
Pat
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Pat for president!
To huge cheers in the Commons, Ms May turned on Fifa for “telling us what to do†when it has been mired in its own long-running corruption scandal.
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I rarely, if ever, wear one - not for any reason really. I will bung s few quid in random collection boxes.
As regards the FIFA thing - I think that FIFA should do one bearing in mind it must be the most corrupt and bent international body in the modern word.
I have no ideological reason for not wearing one - I don't like the increasing trend for wearing expensive looking bejewelled blingy poppies. To me the simplicity of the paper one I like. Humility and all that
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>> I would suggest Fifa need to look at the corruption within and follow their own
>> rules.
It certainly does but on this on this one I feel they are correct. The rule is there for a particular reason and once it is allowed to be ignored we could well see a demand for other countries to adorn their kits with symbols and messages that we may find less acceptable that a poppy.
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What for example are you going to say if the Russian team were to add the ribbon of St George to thier kit?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George#/media/File:Ribbon_of_Saint_George_(tied).svg
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>> The
>> rule is there for a particular reason and once it is allowed to be ignored
>> we could well see a demand for other countries to adorn their kits with symbols
>> and messages that we may find less acceptable that a poppy.
>>
Off on a slight tangent, CG...
For Rio 2016, the Saffers had a lovely tracksuit made, which was promptly banned by the IOC.
Why? Because it was adorned with a facsimile of Nelson Mandela.
Much outcry from the locals, with screams of racism and 'the man was a saint' etc etc etc.
But would the IOC let the N Koreans parade in a kit featuring one of the Kims (NO, not Kardashian!), or Uganda to have Idi Amin?
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>> I would suggest Fifa need to look at the corruption within and follow their own
>> rules.
>>
>> Pat
Like Mrs May you're conflating two issues and indulging in 'whataboutery'.
One can accept that FIFA is, in varying ways, corrupt and needs to address that point.
Whether players augment their kit with logos is a seperate issue.
While the poppy may not be (party) Political there are certainly political issues around it, what it is perceived as symbolising, and the whole remembrance 'thing' as well as the RBL itself. The Nationalist side in Northern Ireland don't go with it and I'm sure same applies in other areas where UK military were/are seen as oppressors. And then there's the whole 'white poppy' pacifist thing.
Wearing RBL/poppy regalia in FIFA competition clearly breached the personal and probably political prohibitions.
And while the Poppy might be uncontroversial in a UK domestic international permitting it could be a precedent for display of more controversial devices.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 4 Nov 16 at 22:10
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>>
>> Like Mrs May you're conflating two issues and indulging in 'whataboutery'.
>>
Actually I'm not. I'm questioning double standards.
>> One can accept that FIFA is, in varying ways, corrupt and needs to address that
>> point.
>>
>> Whether players augment their kit with logos is a seperate issue.
No it isn't. It's a matter of choice and should never be dictated by and one person or professional body. (and certainly not a professional body who are incapable of making an open and honest decision unless it benefits them)
I support those who choose not to wear one in exactly the same way.
>>
>> While the poppy may not be (party) Political there are certainly political issues around it,
If you look at the origins of the poppy there are no political issues around it, they are simply there by people who want it to be political.
The Nationalist side in Northern Ireland don't go with it and I'm sure
>> same applies in other areas where UK military were/are seen as oppressors.
I support their right to decline.
And then there's
>> the whole 'white poppy' pacifist thing.
>>
Nothing at all wrong with that either.
>> And while the Poppy might be uncontroversial in a UK domestic international permitting it could
>> be a precedent for display of more controversial devices.
>>
So my Grandfather and Father should have stood there and considered whether their actions MIGHT have been controversial or not before giving us the freedom we have now?
I'm so pleased this country had more backbone then than the lily livered liberalism that it's turned into now.
Pat
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Pat,
It's not about what you think or which rights you support.
No dual standards are involved (other than the massive one around sponsorship) unless FIFA rules differently on other countries augmenting their kit. Along with several other sport's governing bodies, it has current and previous form for corruption. It needs sorting. But until that happens it's running the World Cup competition and it makes the rules.
Do you really believe that if all 22 players plus subs for both teams wear a poppy armband freedom of choice is being exercised? It's team instructions. And if you want to see how political (note the small p) the poppy has become imagine the treatment in press and social media awaiting the player who 'exercises choice' and doesn't wear one.
Introducing your Father and Grandfather into the debate simply sets up a straw man. It also spectacularly misses the point I was making.
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>> Do you really believe that if all 22 players plus subs for both teams wear
>> a poppy armband freedom of choice is being exercised? It's team instructions. And if you
>> want to see how political (note the small p) the poppy has become imagine the
>> treatment in press and social media awaiting the player who 'exercises choice' and doesn't wear
>> one.
Team instructions or governing body ban is what I'm against, it's freedom of individual choice. Some have been brave enough to face the press and social media treatment for exercising their freedom of choice and the more who do it the better.
If we allow ourselves to be dictated to about this we are encouraging the belief that the poppy is a political gesture, it isn't.
>>
>> Introducing your Father and Grandfather into the debate simply sets up a straw man. It
>> also spectacularly misses the point I was making.
>>
Straw man or not, they wouldn't approve of the way this issue is being dealt with and I for one, feel the need to remember what they gave up to allow me to have freedom of choice for the last 70 years.
Pat
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>> Like Mrs May you're conflating two issues and indulging in 'whataboutery'.
>>
>> One can accept that FIFA is, in varying ways, corrupt and needs to address that
>> point.
>>
>> Whether players augment their kit with logos is a seperate issue.
Crumbs! I agree with Brompy!
I think there is an excess of BS about all of this. Far better to have nothing at all.
And another thing!
I dislike and disapprove of signs and gestures on ALL sports fields. "I make this special gesture as a tribute to my cat which died last year and my Granny who split her fingernail in Harrods".
Absolute bowlegs.
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>> "for all Matches, any form of advertising… of political, religious, commercial, personal
>>statements, images and/or other announcements, is strictly prohibitedâ€.
So which of these categories does a poppy fall into?
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>> "for all Matches, any form of advertising…
Unless you are a sponsor and pay handsomely for the advertisement.
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>> Unless you are a sponsor and pay handsomely for the advertisement.
>>
and there you have it.
Dating back to the three-striped shoes, the three stripes dwn the shirtsleeves and shorts etc etc etc.
Later followed by a swoosh.
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>>
>> Go fight a war that isn't ours to fight, get your legs blown off, come
>> back and rely on charity to help you but we as a government will lambast
>> anyone who disrespects you?
Now that we have fully volunteer armed services, I suggest to anyone considering a career in the forces to think, think, and think again before signing up and then don't do it.
That is the best advice I can give.
Don't do it.
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>>
That is the best advice I can give.
Don't do it.
Sound advice! - the only flaw in that argument is that the Government wouldn't keep their noses out of Wars that don't concern them! - they would then bring back conscription.
Last edited by: devonite on Fri 4 Nov 16 at 10:25
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This morning I saw bling poppy copies in a pop up market stall type shop. No sign of a link to any charity. It saddens me that we need charities to care for our ex servicemen, the government should hang its head in shame.
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The liveboat crews relies on charity.These lads will risk their own live to save people.
So many charities about the about of two pound a month advertisements on the television is on every day.
I wear a poppy for people who did their bit but the causes I don't always agree with.
Regarding football players it is all show
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The Greatest match ever played was England v Germany, in "No Man's Land" on Xmas Day during WW1. They could allow Poppy wearing in Remembrance of that. They allow "respect" to be shown before the beginning of matches for other People, e.g Ex-Players, Officials, Fans, the King of Thailand amongst others.
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I haven't seen anything anywhere that Fifa have reversed their decision, but I assume they must have done as most Teams and Officials were sporting Poppies on their shirts yesterday!
Nice to see!!
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Nothing to do with FIFA who are the governing body for international games
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Correct! - My mistake! - the ban applies to the International Matches being played on 11/11, not to League fixtures. It was still nice to see tho'.
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Donated yesterday while in Sainsbury's at Fosse Park. As I rarely wear anything with a lapel I eschewed the poppy for a plastic bracelet and discreet enamel badge. Strictly speaking I should probably remove them when in face to face contact with clients at work. Same principle as FIFA, nothing should be displayed that might be an expression of personal or political etc views.
OTOH we work with the RBL who may be better placed than CA in terms of welfare issues etc affecting current or ex service people. Standard question in my telephone script is to ask if prospective client has any military service.
I've second hand experience of how the poppy and 11/11 ceremonial is viewed on the Nationalist side in NI. The Lad got involved in verbals two years ago with someone from that community over their refusal to observe and indeed deliberate disruption of two minutes silence in a Uni Hall.
Not sure I agree with FIFA's decision but it's a wholly rational one in context of rules for international tournaments.
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Me and the missus donate each year to the fund but we do not wear a poppy.
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I always look forward to and watch, the annual remembrance event in The Albert Hall.
Oh, and the Cenotaph Parade and the Trooping of the Colour and any Beating of the Retreat shown (especially if it features the best military band in the world - H.M. Royal Marines).
So there!
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>> I always look forward to and watch, the annual remembrance event in The Albert Hall.
>> Oh, and the Cenotaph Parade
So do I. But I recognise others might not share my enthusiasm.
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Fifa and Poppies - Manatee
