| Non-motoring > Grammar schools - what is the issue? | Green Issues |
| Thread Author: movilogo | Replies: 16 |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 11:32
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - movilogo
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I read the summary here. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34538222 But still don't understand why there is controversy about it. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 12:08
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - smokie
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| Wikipedia's view en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_schools_debate |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 12:14
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - smokie
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My personal view is that I am "for". Kids are different, have differing levels of ability and aptitudes for different things. They also have differing backgrounds at home, and differing levels of support from their family. So why would we think that the same system fits everyone? And what's wrong with a system which selects by ability (or maybe call it aptitude)? It works both ways... |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 12:57
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - sooty123
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The issue seems to be that there is no real evidence that they actually raise standards. There was a few studies done by professionals in education, and they all showed the same thing. I guess the teachers and others are against it because it is a big change for little extra. You can still stream children in each school, so they are learning with pupils of similar ability. I think that is pretty standard now anyway. Although having said that round here, the grammar school system was never gotten rid of. That bit of legislation never got brought in around here for whatever reason. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 12:59
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - commerdriver
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>> And what's wrong with a system which selects by ability >> Not a lot wrong per se But... Selection at 11 or rather at 10 because the 11+ (round here anyway) is happening now at the beginning of year 6 does not give a real picture of the capabilities of the same children's abilities for life. The big failure of the old or even the current selection system is that it is inflexible leaving both intelligent kids who did not make the "cut" out of the grammar school opportunities for life amd leaving kids who have been tutored, either privately or in very focussed primaries, to fall by the wayside in later years. That and the recovery that has to be done when your 10-11 year old thinks he is a failure because he did not pass the 11+. My 2 sons both did the equivalent, one passed the other didn't, one succeeded despite not very good grammar school teaching, the other grew up a bit towards the end of upper school and is doing well. So despite living in a town and county which believe in selection, I am far from convinced it makes any difference. Certainly not compared with decent teaching and a stable home environment. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 13:42
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - movilogo
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| Selection via entrance exams is very common in most Asian countries. Personally I am in favour of more grammar schools. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 14:18
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - smokie
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"Certainly not compared with decent teaching and a stable home environment." I am somewhat out of touch with current teaching and schools systems but I do think there is a lot of sense in the above sentence, especially the second half. It's a bit Daily Mail of me to say this but when you see some of the people raising families these days they can't even take care of themselves let alone the responsibilities involved in parenthood. That probably only applies to a small minority though, but I feel it is different from "my days". It probably isn't though, just that today we hear more about it and the excesses seem more extreme. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 16:03
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - Dutchie
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I grew up in a different system long long time ago.What exactly is a grammar school? Our system or schooling was. From six to twelve everybody had the same education.Lower school or lagere school it was called. Then after that there where three or four choices. Mulo. Middle more lower education which lasted 4 years.I suppose similar to O levels. H.B.S. Higher burger school which I would think be similar to a grammar school.The majority of the people who did H.B.S which lasted 5 years went o University. For the more technical minded or not that keen on office or University. L.T.S. lower Technical school which was for three years. M.T.S.Middle Technical school.And H.T.S. Higher Technical college or school. They have a slight different system now.Why are there no Technical Schools in the U.K or am I wrong? I remember when I used to talk to fitters who did a 5 years apprentice ship.My Technical school background was more comprehensive. One of the best Engineers funny enough I have worked with on Gardner Ship Engines was home schooled.>:) |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 16:12
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - Mike Hannon
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Worst thing I ever did was pass the 11-plus. I don't think there is any subject about which I feel more strongly. The grammar school (system) cost me 20-odd irreplaceable years of my life and I'll never forgive it. Luckily I managed to escape at 15 years 4 months and never took any O or A levels. When asked if I could leave school (we had to ask my great-aunt to make the request because she had the only 'posh' voice in the family) the headmaster said 'he might as well, he has little chance of any academic success'. When I eventually achieved my 'distinction' in economics I was accused by my tutor of hiding my academic background! Signed: M S Hannon, BA (Hons). Rant over (well, it always touches a nerve). Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Fri 16 Sep 16 at 16:14
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 16:47
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - Dutchie
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You did ok Mike. Some managers who where supposed to be highly educated at the company I was employed by made decisions which cost millions in mistakes. They got promotion or moved on. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 17:52
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - Cliff Pope
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The uncomfortable paradox that no one wants to face is that the country needs the best, brightest, most educable people to be selected, taught, stretched, and fast-tracked into positions where they and their talents can be used. But unfortunately that inevitably means that there is no avoiding telling the others that they didn't make the grade, and however you dress up the consolation, they are not going to do so well in life. (Apart of course from the odd mistaken classification or later achiever who may despite the odds break through the barrier) You can pretend that everyone is equal, give them the same basic education, and then let the clever ones romp ahead anyway, or you can face the facts. What the answer is I've no idea. I didn't go through that process myself. I didn't take the 11-plus, but independent school entrance exams. Having been selected, virtually everyone went to university, a high proportion to Oxbridge. Disliking schools in general, and the feeling that they really are mainly a vehicle for society indoctrination, we educated our three at home. They seem to have turned out all right so far. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 18:08
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - sooty123
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>> The uncomfortable paradox that no one wants to face is that the country needs the >> best, brightest, most educable people to be selected, taught, stretched, and fast-tracked into positions where >> they and their talents can be used. I think question is can that be done inside one school or does it need a separate one? |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 18:11
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - zippy
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Grammar schools tend to be socially selective rather than academically because wealthy parents that care about their kids will pay for the tuition required to get them through the exams. My complaint is that the councils pay more per pupil at a grammar school from a fixed overall budget than they do for one at a secondary modern which is patently unfair and puts the other schools at an instant disadvantage. The last grammar school here closed in the 70's but houses in its catchment area still get sold for a premium. I recall local employers would favour candidates from the grammar school, even if other candidates had similar or better qualifications and have seen an "old school" personnel manager just bin the applications for junior positions from applicants that had gone to the other schools in town! |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 18:49
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - BrianByPass
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>> My complaint is that the councils pay more per pupil at a grammar school from >> a fixed overall budget than they do for one at a secondary modern >> Can you tell me where you get that fact from? Official sources state that "pupil premium is additional funding for publicly funded schools in England to raise the attainment of disadvantaged pupils of all abilities and to close the gaps between them and their peers". £1,320 for pupils in reception year to year 6 £935 for pupils in year 7 to year 11 If a pupil has been registered as eligible for free school meals and has also left local-authority care for any of the reasons above, they will attract the £1,900 rate. Children who have been in local-authority care for 1 day or more also attract £1,900 of pupil premium funding. |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 18:05
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - sooty123
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>> Worst thing I ever did was pass the 11-plus. >> I don't think there is any subject about which I feel more strongly. >> The grammar school (system) cost me 20-odd irreplaceable years of my life and I'll never >> forgive it. Why did you dislike it so much? |
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 18:57
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - BrianByPass
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>> But still don't understand why there is controversy about it. >> controversial because trendy politics require that the elite are dragged downwards in the quest for equality, rather than pulling up the non-elite up the scale. These articles may not open for you. Search for them if that is the case: Academies wary of grammar schools revival www.ft.com/content/cae9b7c6-7b46-11e6-ae24-f193b105145e Hysteria and hypocrisy in the war on mediocrity www.ft.com/content/5145c502-76a2-11e6-bf48-b372cdb1043a "The trouble with this debate is not just the hysteria. It may also not matter very much who is right. Mrs May can improve schools a bit, through whatever means, and leave only a scratch on entrenched privilege. Unless the total stock of prestigious and well-paid jobs grows as it did in the postwar decades, which seems fanciful, talented poor children will struggle to rise unless mediocre rich children fall. That room rarely opens up because those mediocrities are too well-screened by parents who hire private tutors, buy cultural enrichment, teach etiquette, set expectations, stand as personal examples of success, coach interview technique, navigate any bureaucratic maze put before them, set up home in nice areas, arrange internships via friends and, just to rub in their supremacy, make direct gifts of cash and assets. To fail under these conditions is a kind of achievement in itself. No chess grandÂmaster can out-think an upper-middle-class couple trying to rig life for its spawn. This awesome ingenuity is what you are up against, Prime Minister. The state would have to curb personal freedom, even human nature, to make downward mobility a serious risk for people born to rich parents. Would voters support confiscatory taxes on inheritance and lifetime gifts, the criminalisation of nepotism, the regulation of work experience, tutors and other kinds of “soft†cheating? Would the well-off pay taxes for universal public services if schools in poor districts had much smaller class sizes than those in their own coveted catchment areas? The rich compound their privileges by marrying each other: what chance government diktat in matters of the heart? To spell out the reforms is to see their political unthinkability. Almost everybody talks a good game about social mobility and almost nobody means it. They want a world in which their kin cannot move down, or even feel the shiver of insecurity at the prospect. This impulse is entirely natural but it should not be cloaked in a pretence of concern for fairness and merit. After all, no one who dislikes brute notions of victory and defeat feigns enthusiasm for professional sport. Egalitarians do not flatter free-market ideology. But people who insulate their offspring from competition make a show of wishing poor young aspirants the very best. Mrs May wants a society where individual potential, performance and reward are aligned. Barring a sudden and historic proliferation of attractive jobs such as nobody sees coming, she must therefore want more people of her class to take a tumble in life, and to will the means via government policy. She does not, and neither do many people. Maybe we go to war over marginal differences in school structure because other kinds of advantage are too awkward to confront." Last edited by: BrianByPass on Fri 16 Sep 16 at 18:57
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New Fri 16 Sep 16 21:16
Grammar schools - what is the issue? - henry k
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>>That room rarely opens up because those mediocrities are too well-screened by parents who hire private tutors, buy cultural enrichment, teach etiquette, set expectations, stand as personal examples of success, coach interview technique, navigate any bureaucratic maze put before them, set up home in nice areas, arrange internships via friends and, just to rub in their supremacy, make direct gifts of cash and assets. To fail under these conditions is a kind of achievement in itself. >> Well! Well! My experience and SWMO's experience is different so we must be two such rare beings. I passed the 11+ in an area that also included a Tec college and I had a choice of grammar schools. My impoverished widowed mum relied on the council paying for my uniform and school meals. My brother went to the secondary modern and advanced to a highly responsible job. SWMBO's father had a low paid job but after she gained a scholarship and struggled to support her. Gaining good O levels she then left to start earning. I also needed income and my school work suffered. It was agreed that I left just prior to O levels. I arranged and took my O levels independently. I went into electronics and then into communications. I was recruited into real time computer programming when few even knew what it was. The next 35 years was in the computer scene in a variety of roles. I worked with many university graduates, some " were not worth the rations" I taught my two children to read before starting at junior school. Learning was always fun. SWMBO did not return to work but was at home for the children. On my travels abroad I always sent them postcards and often brought home something for the school. Something inexpensive that was not usually seen in the UK in those days, e.g a big green coconut, an ostrich egg, a length of sugar cane, all part of my role in developing all the children's awareness of other lands and so on.. The ability for both to communicate well was something we nurtured and it has served then wonderfully during their time at school, at Uni and in their careers. I consider that this is a key aspect of development that is so so important. Both of ours went, once a week, to what is commonly called a tutor, They did not need tutoring but went in order to become relaxed about tests and experience similar questions. this was also fun. They were never ever promised anything to pass their 11+ Both passed with top marks. One immediately got an "out of borough" place to a top grammar school - we had not bought into the catchment area Son gained a scholarship to a well known non state grammar school Eventually he was also accepted as an " out of borough " student to a well known grammar school. My son earned a lot of money with his communications skills while still at school. He was in sales and on commission. Both did well and they gained places at Oxford and a top London medical school. Neither gained three A levels but had a fabulous time at Uni. Again no bribes. We were able and decided to give them small living expenses and asked them NOT to get a job but to enjoy uni life. That certainly added up at a total of nine uni years. Again, no expectations but a trust to work hard but not be a hermit. I guess I am guilty over many years of putting soft effort into my children's development and of believing in them while not needing to bribe them. IMO it takes time and effort and that is what is often missing. From their very early teens both have been repeatedly "head hunted" because they had good communication skill while also plus radiating confidence. I do not think SWMBO and I fit into the common perception often depicted of rich folk buying in to grammar schools. |
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