Herself's maternal grandfather died on the first or second day of the Somme battle.
Some years ago we found his gravestone among the thousands of others. What a terrible scene that was...
Not that Hiroshima was an improvement of course. Primitive savages shouldn't really be allowed to use nuclear weapons, and no one else would want to.
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>> Not that Hiroshima was an improvement of course. Primitive savages shouldn't really be allowed to
>> use nuclear weapons, and no one else would want to.
>>
Death toll at Hiroshima and Nagasaki vs Death toll if the Allies had invaded the home islands?
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My wife's grandfather was shot early in the first world war and lost an arm.
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My Great Grandfather was killed in WW1.
My Great Grandmother, who I knew well, never got over it.
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One of my grandfathers was shot very near the end of WWII so I never met him. Shot by a sniper in an area that was under the control of the allies, or so I am told.
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>>
>> >> Not that Hiroshima was an improvement of course. Primitive savages shouldn't really be allowed
>> to
>> >> use nuclear weapons, and no one else would want to.
>> >>
>> Death toll at Hiroshima and Nagasaki vs Death toll if the Allies had invaded the
>> home islands?
>>
>>
The Japs were trying to surrender. No one was listening because they had the big new weapon and wanted to show it off to the world!
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Some camps - the Big Six - wanted to negotiate a surrender, via Stalin.
Stalin wasn't interested - he wanted to grab a few bits of land.
The military wanted to carry on the war, hoping for a decisive battle which would prove so costly for the Allies that they'd be prepared to accept a conditional surrender.
As it was LeMay's firebombing campaign hadn't broken japanese resolve, so the decision to drop that bucket of sunshine was made.
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>> The Japs were trying to surrender.
Oh! Really?
And how did that manifest itself?
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There is plenty on the net. Here is just one. It's been mentioned in major TV documentaries as well.
www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_weber.html
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>> There is plenty on the net. Here is just one. It's been mentioned in major
>> TV documentaries as well.
Just cos it is on the net, doesn't make it true.
From family members, and from memoirs of chaps who where there, it would seem the suicidal Jap was prepared to dig in and make a massive fight of it.
In fact, back in Tokyo, the No Surrender mob were very active.
Was it right to nuke the Hiroshima? Ask any veteran.
So, Tojo, you got the message? Nope.
So farewell Nagasaki.
Not nice. But to save allied lives, most of whom were conscripts, then drop 'em, Curtiss!
Remember, up until then, the kamikazes were smashing the fleets at Iwo.
Bludgeon a city as a warning?
Go for it.
Japan had a bad history in China, and started the war in the east.
Any excuses from that side about 'embargoes and sanctions' doesn't wash. The Rape of Nanking and the Burma railroad shows what a bunch of heartless scum they were.
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I guess WWII had legal status as an actual war, whereas Irag, Syria, Afghanistan etc. do not.
However, Japan attacked other regions and they bombed and killed Japanese mothers & children in their homes.
Whereas Iraq and Afghanistan have been invaded, and some of their countrymen have struck at other countries and killed mothers & children in their homes.
Legally I quite understand the difference. But morally or emotionally?
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>> Herself's maternal grandfather died on the first or second day of the Somme battle.
No, I've got it wrong. He was hit by a bullet on the third day, 3 July, and lay for seven hours in no man's land waiting to be rescued.
The wound wasn't fatal in itself, but became infected and turned to gangrene. He lived on for some weeks before dying.
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Sounds like a worse way to day than a fatal wound from the bullet.
Lets hope wars in Europe are a thing of the past. Of course the Council of Europe and later the EU were designed to bring us all closer together. The timing of the referendum income is somewhat ironic.
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My Great Uncle survived the Somme. Battle of Mametz wood which was absolutely horrific by any measure and was killed in July 1917 during the 3rd Ypres. I knew his Fiancee - never married - I can picture her now sat by the tapestry fire screen she made for him as a coming home present. He never got it.
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I had a great-uncle, a Jesuit and Catholic chaplain who served on the front in WW1. He got some sort of quite distinguished gong for giving people the last rites in no man's land under heavy fire from what was probably all directions.
Found in my mother's papers a letter from him to his CO, scribbled in pencil in his own version of Jesuit Italic on a random bit of muddy paper, saying he didn't deserve the gong but a lot of other people did. On the back the CO had scrawled: 'None more gallantly won'. I quite wanted to keep the gong and letter but my sister's nippers in New Zealand have them now.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 2 Jul 16 at 16:43
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A lifelong chain smoker like a number of Jesuits I have come across, he died of emphysema.
He didn't think much of me. Much time had passed of course, but I wasn't up to much in his terms. I'm sure he had a point too.
He was a saintly figure to me, but could beat my father at chess. My father liked him a lot and thought him a 'wicked old man' but in a good way. He had been headmaster of a major Catholic public school for 20 years and didn't suffer idiots gladly. I had to serve at Mass when he came to stay, and lend him my scout hat when he walked up and down the garden saying his Breviary. He was welcome to the hat but when you're 15 you don't like having to get up at the crack of dawn and try not to look too squalid.
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Wife's grandad joined up at 14 was a poverty stricken waif from the north of Scotland. They must have known!
Found wounded and unconscious on the battlefield by nuns tending the wounded and hidden from the Germans. Luckily made a full recovery. Nuns deserve a medal!
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My father's father served in Malta all through the war...
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Yes, my Jesuit great-uncle was a Malt RP. How did you know?
He used to look very pious and holy when saying Mass, in another world as it were. Made the 15-year-old me feel even more squalid and disgusting.
Another thing I didn't like was having to put on musty dresses and little lace tops and stuff, red or black and white depending on the grandeur of the Mass. It was awful. I'm not over-fastidious but the reek of adolescent boy came off the grubby greasy collars.
All burned into my memory in a way that would quite upset poor old Uncle Eli, until he ordered me twice-nine with the evil rubber cosh the Jays call a ferula. That would perhaps set his mind at rest. All for my own good of course.
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>> Yes, my Jesuit great-uncle was a Malt RP. How did you know?
Same war? My grandfather would have been in 1st but both he and my parents had kids latish.
I could easily have had a grandfather in the second, albeit one leaving his children at home.
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I had two Grandfathers in WWII, both made it through
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Question on employment questionnaire.
Is there any common cause of death in male members of your family?
Yes
What is it?
the German navy.
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>> I had two Grandfathers in WWII, both made it through
>>
I can't claim any ancestors killed in wars since the Wars of the Roses, not even peripheral relatives. I do feel a bit left out of these commemorations. All my family somehow managed to be either too young or too old at the crucial times.
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>> >> I had two Grandfathers in WWII, both made it through
>>
>> I can't claim any ancestors killed in wars since the Wars of the Roses, not
>> even peripheral relatives. I do feel a bit left out of these commemorations. All my
>> family somehow managed to be either too young or too old at the crucial times.
>>
My father was in WW! but did not go over the channel.
As far as I can make out he had a childhood illness that affected his heart.
He was an acting sergeant , I believe training lads re PE.
WW2 he was in the ARP.
I believe SMBOs grandfather was in WW1.
WW2 - other an uncle served ( in the navy) and was torpedoed and lost.
In some ways I feel a little lost re ancestors serving in the forces.
2 x miners, 1x railways, 1 x gas board all in protected jobs.
No women involved in the forces or war work.
The closest we got was after the WW2, my mother and I helped, at home, make flying goggles to earn a small extra income.
Last edited by: henry k on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 18:21
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>> >> >> I had two Grandfathers in WWII,
>>
Suddenly I feel old. My grandfather was born in 1863 and was 52 when the First World War started
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I guess my Grandfathers were born around 1905. They were of a similar age.
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>> Suddenly I feel old. My grandfather was born in 1863 and was 52 when the
>> First World War started
>
Do you mind telling us your age CG?
While having families young seems the norm until the pill etc enabled control the reality is that generations were always spread out.
I'm 56. All four grandparents were born in the 19th century. Both my parents were born in the twenties.
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Grandfather was born in 1863. Father in 1914.
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My maternal grandfather was born in 1859. A farmer, he lived to be 97 and was helping milk the cows on the day he died.
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> In some ways I feel a little lost re ancestors serving in the forces.
>> 2 x miners, 1x railways, 1 x gas board all in protected jobs.
>> No women involved in the forces or war work.
One of my relatives was similarly in a reserved occupation, didn't stop him for getting called up though. Kept having to go down and show paperwork. I think the first time he volunteered only to be told no.
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>> I had two Grandfathers in WWII, both made it through
WWII? Pff, Johnnie-come-latelies! I had a grandfather in WW1. In the Imperial German Cavalry, too. Wounded in the stomach. Other grandfather (British) didn't fight, and so when WW2 came round my father made sure he did, for the sake of his children. "What did you do in the war, Daddy?"
By the time he had me, most of my compatriots had grandparents in WW2, so it was irrelevant.
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I think you mentioned it before.
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There was a series of articles in one of the papers a few years back (I think the Telegraph) called "The Truth About WW1" or something similar. The author was of the opinion that the "Lions led by donkeys" thing was a myth, and that the British military learnt very quickly from their initial mistakes and were quite progressive in their thinking as events unfolded. It was also claimed that many soldiers were happy to serve as they came from severely impoverished backgrounds and this was the first time they had ever had enough food provided to them, and however primitive the conditions they were no worse than they were used to at home.
Not agreeing or disagreeing of course as I have no idea, but a different perspective from what we usually get where it is all presented as nothing but hell for all involved.
EDIT:
Found it -
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sat 2 Jul 16 at 18:59
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People tend to view historical events through their own mindset.
My uncle joined the Royal Artillery in 1915 and within months turns ferry to the newly formed Machine Gun Regiment. He served on the Western Front throughout the war rising to the rank of sergeant. Was injured twice and awarded th Militiary Medal. Machine gunners were not popular with the enemy and your life expectancy was very short if caught.
I often wonder how many people he killed during the war. Didn't seem to have suffered from any psychological damage and signed up for a a further five years in the army after the war and going on to found a building business.
I can just about remember him. He died when I was ten.
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Yes the lions and donkey thing came out post war. Many thought troops stayed in the front lines for weeks on end, in reality it was about 2 days. The army really came to grips with alot of the new technology and tactics quite quickly. They were in effect a colonial police force at the start, it was a huge step change for them. One that they managed well throughout, of course they made mistakes but that's war.
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Squaddies in Afghanistan stayed in the front line for much longer than WW1 troops. The Somme was not the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning but it was where Generals learnt the vital lessons that did lead to eventual victory. And whatever anyone says it was an important and very worthy victory in the end assisted by the US but to a greater degree assisted by the RN, proper use of air power and damned hard soldiering and the transformation of the UK into a giant arms factory and northern France into the biggest warehouse in history and that is what finally turned the Germans around especially after the Spring Offensive (second Somme) in 1918...when they broke through the line and saw the actual depth of the Allied reserves that they realised the game was up. We beat them lock stock and barrel. Forget the crap about cowardly generals, more Divisional Officers died in the battle of Loos than throughout the second conflict. There's a load of crap about people not wanting to talk about WW1 after the war...far from the truth, true there were ones like that but the vast majority of Tommies carried on and were rightly very, very proud of what they did.
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I wonder which news organisation, or even organisations will get the end of The Great War (WW1) wrong. Contrary to many peoples opinion, the 11th of November 1918 was not the end of the war, it was the implementation of the armistice, The true end was on the 28th June 1919.
A few war memorials are actually engraved with the 1914-1919 war, one of them is in St Albans. Not I think the main one, but an even sadder one - on a house with the names of the fallen from that street. Probably a 'buddies' group in the same battalion.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Sat 2 Jul 16 at 21:22
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Rob.....SWM's maternal Great Uncle, James Woolley, died of wounds on 7/7/17 at Mending'em dressing station near Proven and is buried there, now called Mendingham. He was 31. I wonder if he fought at the 3rd Ypres...it's not a million miles away. He was in the Cheshire Regiment. He was a ' Gold Finisher ' in the hat trade in Stockport We have been to his grave and seen the inscription requested by his parents....
" He was tired and fell asleep "
Two paternal Great Aunts lost their fiances and lived until the late 1960s as spinsters...having never married.......tragic for all. James's brother Jack, my wife's Grandpa, also a Cheshire, survived and came home to his wife and little girl .......my late MiL. Tragedy soon hit again when his wife, Nellie, died of TB in 1922 leaving him to bring up an 8 year old daughter. He left us in 1971 but never really spoke about the past.
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I wonder how the brave soldiers of both world wars will think about the UK today. Deciding to leave united europe that' been mostly peaceful since 1945. And successful too.
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>> A few war memorials are actually engraved with the 1914-1919 war, one of them is
>> in St Albans.
So are many on the conjoined Hebridean islands of Harris and Lewis. The reason there is different though.
Many soldiers from the islands were returned home on the night of 31 December 1918 on board the vessel HMY Iolaire. In the early hours of 1 Jan 1919 her captain misjudged the approach to Stornoway harbour and she foundered on rocks known as 'The Beasts of Holm. Over 200 died, more than the islands lost in combat in the whole of the war.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 16:28
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Local memorial was moved a few years back - 150 yds down the road.
Along the way, the movers turned the top two 'layers' around.
Now we see THE GREAT WAR on one layer
and 1950-53 on the one below it.
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The Cenotaph here in Manchester has been dismantled, restored and moved a hundred yards recently to facilitate a larger tram station in St Peter's Square. A much nicer position, within sight of the original spot and giving much more room for parades and services.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Cenotaph
There was some complaint when the original station was built close to the Cenotaph. What would the old soldiers think ? etc, I like to think the Victorian young men would have been delighted with the march of technology and approved of the new trams.
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>>The true end was on the 28th June 1919.
If you want to be pointlessly pedantic then perhaps prepare properly. Arguably 1919 is not correct either. Try 1921 - see here:
www.warmemorials.org/uploads/publications/117.pdf
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Pointlessly pedantic... Hardly. Plenty of war memorials in the UK show 1919, but you tell me where in the UK a 1921 date can be found on a war memorial?
The whole point is an armistice is the cessation of hostilities, but not the end of a war. For those that signed the Treaty of Versailles on the 28th June 1919 that was properly the end of matters. If one wants to get really silly, Costa Rica remained at war with Germany until the Potsdam Agreement ended WW2.
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The Somme - Ian (Cape Town)
