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On-going Debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 21:29
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The ever-tightening grip of the EU one of the things that Brexiteers object to and Delors may have borrowed a tactic called "the oil slick" from French colonial policy. Once a foothold had been established territorial claims "should be based on effective rather than nominal occupation, which should ooze forward like an oil slick. Soldiers should set up forward posts as they advanced, giving indigenes the chance to accept their presence, opening markets, schools and medical stations in order better to consolidate their authority". Robert Aldrich, Greater France.) The EU examples are different but the technique is very similar.
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The E.U Referendum debate has begun again.
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I wasn't aware that it had stopped.
Did I miss something?
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Just a quick one, does everyone who intends to vote received their polling card yet? Mines not pitched up yet, i think I'm right in saying you don't need one to vote though.
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Yes you are right - you don't need a card to vote , just be on the list of voters.
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Ours have not arrived.. but we are registered. Someone found a batch of cards locally thrown into a hedge...ours not in it..
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36572894
Sayeeda Warsi, former party chairman, has had enough of Farage's racism and Gove's dishonesty.
Incidentally, has anyone heard from Bozza lately? Is he lying low ready to emerge on Friday saying he never really wanted to leave and can he have Govey's old job?
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Nor has Farage, so if he gives up it won't count either?
Nothing to offer on racism and dishonesty, Dog?
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>> Vote Leave says Warsi never joined their campaign
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/20/baroness-warsi-quits-leave-boris-johnson-brexit-jo-cox-tributes/
She said she was previously a Eurosceptic outie but has changed sides;
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/sayeeda-warsi-quits-leave-campaign-over-hateful-xenophobic-tactics
In some matters you and she are on same side. She resigned from Government due her support for Palestinians.
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I am not surprised that people are switching sides.
Some people always want to be part of "winning" side and don't want to be in "losers" group.
With a contest so close, it is difficult to judge what would be winning side.
I also note that people are often associating persons with a particular side.
The people will disappear from the arena in 5-6 years time but the decision taken in referendum is likely to last 30-40 years at least.
So please cast your vote on wider context and not based on whether you like a proponent or not.
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"I am not surprised that people are switching sides."
I know I took my eye off the ball in the '70s and 80's with the distractions of work and a young family which included one with serious medical difficulties but, after seeing this programme, I was surprised at the numbers of times parties and individual politicians changed their attitudes to the EEC/EU. From the comments, I think the programme was recorded some 10 years ago.
youtu.be/cTH0UrpSu2s
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You do come up with some rubbish, Movi. If it's hard to tell which is going to be the winning side, how are these people judging their jump? What do they know that the rest of us don't?
But when the Outies' own people are recognizing that their motives are ugly and their promises baseless, it doesn't say much for those still planning to vote Leave, does it?
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>> You do come up with some rubbish, Movi
Not a nice way to disagree but I do understand people can get upset on this topic and can lose their temper :-)
>> What do they know that the rest of us don't?
I don't know but possibly they do know something more which we don't know.
Otherwise how come politicians tell lies after lies and still remain ministers for years?
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I could put it more delicately but that's still rubbish.
}:---)
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>> But when the Outies' own people are recognizing that their motives are ugly and their
>> promises baseless, it doesn't say much for those still planning to vote Leave, does it?
It says nothing at all about them. What do Cameron's dissembling and Osborne's lies say about you? Nothing I hope.
Neither does it really say anything about the motives of the principals, unfortunately. They are trying to win a campaign and both sides will use whatever they can get away with that they think will work.
I am not persuaded by anything that e.g. Farage says, or Gove, or Boris.They could all change sides tomorrow and it would make no difference to me.
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...Osborne's lies...
I'm no fan of George Osborne - we don't always get to choose our allies - but he's been guilty of no more than over-egging the pudding. (Presumably the one that came out of the can he's kicked down the road.) Yes, some of his analyses are over-dramatic, but I can't think of a complete falsehood to match Leave's £350m, Airbus or Turkey; those are outright lies, whereas Osborne has merely over-interpreted.
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Excellent, CGN.
I want my tolerant, inclusive country back. I think Farage's poster has torpedoed the Outies, undecided people will, on the whole, be revolted by it and vote accordingly.
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The poster used by UKIP was terrible for their side but more importantly should never have been used.
For starters, the refugees shown on there are not EU citizens and therefore cannot just come to the UK because they want to (unlike EU migrants). In fact we had an agreement that we would not automatically take these refugees - I happen not to agree with that.
This poster showed desperate Syrians, Afghanistan's, etc. walking across Europe to find safety/refuge. We all know they should not have had to make that journey like that.
And then to make it worse for UKIP/Farage/leave.... he tries to link the outrage for the poster with the murder of Jo Cox!
I wonder if he's just score an own goal??
In recent days the polls show it as around 45:44 one way or the other. So the remaining 10% are undecided. I know if I didn't know what was best I'd vote for the status quo just in case.
Fingers crossed.... The pound has rallied against other currencies today too.
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>> Looks like Remain are edging ahead in the latest poll
Pretty much what was to be expected.
Don't knows probably tend to come out in the 'status quo' camp. Those who were No to poke a stick in the Establishment's eye over migration are going to be prone to wobbles/second thoughts too
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Pretty much what was to be expected.
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honestly, that's what you expected?
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>> honestly, that's what you expected?
I expected, or at least will not be surprised to find, that Brexit's high water mark was ahead of polling day. See the Scottish referendum for a precedent.
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Fair enough, i thought 55/45% to remain. Honestly i wouldn't be surprised either way now.
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I posted a few weeks back predicting 55/45 in favour of remain. I actually think that could still be achieved.
Latest odd are 2/9 Remain and 10/3 Leave
I think "Leave" have made their run too early and have run our of wind as we come up to the finishing line. They might even be facing the knacker's yard. Probably the kindest thing. ;-)
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>> They might even be facing the knacker's yard.
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Probably the biggest difference from the Scottish referendum. The SNP having lost, still existed as a major force, the leave campaign, without a single focus group, will descend into a variety of groups of disgruntled chatterers IMHO.
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>> Probably the biggest difference from the Scottish referendum. The SNP having lost, still existed as
>> a major force, the leave campaign, without a single focus group, will descend into a
>> variety of groups of disgruntled chatterers IMHO.
>>
But that this were so, what the recent campaign has highlighted to me is how deeply the vein of xenophobia and racism runs in what I previously held up to be a good example of a tolerant and multicultural society. I include relatives who's 'repetition' of some of the dog whistle Brexit 'messaging' has appalled me. "three square meals from anarchy" comes to mind. We are way less civilised than I naively thought.
I am persuaded solely by the economic argument, where I have heard other arguments made eloquently and rationally by Leave I have often had some sympathy, however I think "we made our bed"around the time of Maastricht.
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>> Latest odd are 2/9 Remain and 10/3 Leave
We have done all this before?
Bookies fix the odds so that, come what may, the book will show a profit.
It has little to do with what they think the result is going to be.
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>> It has little to do with what they think the result is going to be.
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But a lot to do with what the betting public think the result is going to be.
I wonder how many bets have been placed on the result
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Well I've got £100 on remain
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>> Well I've got £100 on remain
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I wondered when (or if) you would get around to sharing that information with us...
;-)
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>> I wondered when (or if) you would get around to sharing that information with us...
>> ;-)
Why's that then?
The way I bet and what I believe in are two different things although in this case they coincide. If I though Leave had a serious chance of winning that's where my money would be.
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>> ...Osborne's lies...
>>
>> I'm no fan of George Osborne - we don't always get to choose our allies
>> - but he's been guilty of no more than over-egging the pudding
So to vote the same way as MG BJ and NF discredits me but but it is not material to your credibility that you agree with Osborne who cannot tell the truth when a lie would do the job?
I'm not going to go trawling for links. How about the £4,300? One, it is based on an assumption that the UK economy will have grown by 29% over 14 years in a Brexit scenario, v. 35% if we stay in the EU. Second, it is wrong anyway, as he has simply divided the forecast GDP difference by 26 million households. GDP is not the same as household income.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 13:20
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Is there one single politician, on either side, who has been virtuous in the process?
Every single one of them has been at least disingenuous and often a downright lying git. What a b***** awful bunch politicians are. Even the ones espousing political views that I agree with are awful, never mind the ones which I also disagree with.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 13:23
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WdB wrote:
More or Less is excellent and informative as always, although I'm not sure which of my convictions Manatee thinks it will shake, especially since I've used its findings here during the campaign to challenge some of the Outies' wilder wishful thinking.
Still with Manatee, of course the IMF report is forecast, not fact. But it's consistent with the economist consensus that exit would damage the UK economy, and gives us a range of numbers to put the Outies' claims about releasing money for 'our priorities' in context - a context in which they are plainly unachievable.
I didn't think it would shake any of your convictions, I simply thought it was interesting and explained a few things in a way that neither campaign would.
The forecasts are another matter. The way in which they have been presented is misleading to put it mildly.
A simple bit of insight here into Osborne's "6% worse off" -
goo.gl/SEv7Jn (Independent).
Then consider that the forecasts generally assume that no opportunities will be found in a Brexit scenario. I don't mean 'opportunities' such as reducing/eliminating net payments to the EU, I mean people both in government and in business doing things differently because the environment has changed.
The consensus means very little. There are far too many moving parts, many of which have almost certainly been ignored. Eurozone crisis for one - I think you said that had there been any value in the prognostications of doom then the crisis would have happened two years ago. It didn't, because (I can't think of a better phrase) the can has been kicked down the road. The further it is kicked, the worse will be the landing.
I really doubt whether the forecasts, whether the majority consensus you mention or the pro-Brexit ones, have any value at all. They satisfy a need for quantifiable basis on which to make a decision, but they are really just useful for propaganda.
Pro-Remain friends of mine have given me reasons for their views. One compared our unelected House of Lords with the European Parliament to rebut my democracy argument. Another asked if I wanted to be governed by Gove, BoJo and Farage. If that is the kind of reasoning that people are voting Remain on, then we should not be having a referendum.
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Majority of electorates do not have enough intellectual capability to cast votes based on proper analysis. It is difficult to predict long term futures and even so called experts often predict wrongly.
Typical public can't even plan their next weekend activities. So, they will be hugely swayed by what media tell them to believe. People have more interest in football, celebrity shows etc. than longer term outlook for their own countries.
Our political system is outdated (e.g. first past the post) and politicians present alternatives (e.g. Labour vs Conservative) in such way what whatever the outcome is, it will suit them.
EU referendum was possibly the only option which would make politicians easy lives difficult - that's why they are so much eager to sway the result towards remain camp.
It is often the people who hold liberal views on immigration complain about ever increasing house price, waiting time to see their GPs, children missing out school preferences, higher price etc. and then blames the government for their misery.
Then again on next election vote like zombies.
In an ideal world, the govt. should have been completely neutral. Yet they used public funds to campaign for the "remain" side.
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"Majority of electorates do not have enough intellectual capability to cast votes based on proper analysis"
I somehow rather suspect that you consider yourself to be in the minority ;-)
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Anyone moves their backsides and take the pain to discuss the matter in a forum is automatically elevated to that elite group :o)
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"Majority of electorates do not have enough intellectual capability to cast votes based on proper analysis. It is difficult to predict long term futures and even so called experts often predict wrongly.
Hmm..
Democracy is such a bad thing when you're omnipotent :-)
"Anyone moves their backsides and take the pain to discuss the matter in a forum is automatically elevated to that elite group :o) "
I'll pass thank you.
Elites tend to get culled. :-)
Last edited by: madf on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 13:11
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If the remain camp wins say by margin of 55-45, everything will go on as usual, the concern (e.g. uncontrolled immigration) for 45% of leave camp will be ignored.
Now if leave camp wins by same margin there is still going to be some migration (e.g. point based), lots of trade agreements will be there in place etc.
So the way I see it (and you may differ) if leave camp loses, their issues won't be discussed further.
But if remain camp loses, they probably won't lose much of their concern.
I think majority of leave supports are backing as a protest to uncontrolled immigration (because except UKIP no one is willing to act on it).
But what the remain supports are backing it for? Just to maintain status quo? Or just economic fear (which is not proven due to scaremongering)?
I think (again my opinion) if EU rules were changed to stop uncontrolled migration and then this referendum were offered, then most people wouldn't even bother to cast their votes.
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>>I think (again my opinion) if EU rules were changed to stop uncontrolled migration and then this referendum were offered, then most people wouldn't even bother to cast their votes.
Now that's an interesting point.
I wonder if that would be true, or if in that parallel universe the "main" issue would simply have become something else - fishing, finance or farming or something..
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Now that's an interesting point.
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>> I wonder if that would be true, or if in that parallel universe the "main"
>> issue would simply have become something else - fishing, finance or farming or something..
>>
I think so yes, for many that is the central issue. All the other ones come straight from that. The other issues would still exist but would be reduced in volume.
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>> I wonder if that would be true, or if in that parallel universe the "main"
>> issue would simply have become something else - fishing, finance or farming or something.
One piece I heard while travelling last Tuesday was (again BBC R4) a programme called the Human Zoo, quote -
Michael Blastland explores the quirky ways in which we humans think, behave and make decisions.
In this first episode of a new series, we look at facts and the EU referendum. We are bombarded with statistics and projections about how the UK will benefit or suffer, depending on whether or not we are in or out of Europe. And we, the public, clamour for even more. How do we respond and use these facts, if at all, to formulate a reasoned opinion?
To what extent do we make a judgment first and then collect the evidence afterwards? Do we simply seek out facts that confirm our original belief - are we simply self-justification machines? As we near ballot time, the Human Zoo team investigate how emotions - such as fear and anger - may shape the way we think and act.
You (I address that to all readers who are open-minded enough to be self critical, not just you NFM) really should listen to this. I'd be surprised if the first 10 minutes (there are only 28 in total) doesn't get you hooked.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ffxsw
I have been aware for a long time of how availability bias works, and I honestly have tried to question my reactions to facts that challenge my beliefs or decisions - possibly why I appear to have been something of a fence sitter on this.
How it works is that people tend to make a decision, at least provisionally, before searching for facts. Quite understandably they first want facts or arguments that they can use to confirm and quote to explain the decision they have made. When they encounter facts or arguments that do not fit or contradict their position, they will search for further facts to discredit them (or simply ignore them).
This is a standard human trait. We all do it more or less, I believe.
I haven't done it but it might be interesting to see how many people here, when presented with a "fact" that undermines their position, have actually said "that's a good point", even if it is followed by a "but...", rather than simply replying with counter arguments to torpedo the one they didn't like.
I have of course questioned my own rebuttal of the "forecasts". I find my reasoning impeccable:) And, further in my defence m'Lud, I find most of the Vote Leave arguments to be rubbish as well.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 19:59
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Excellent programme, Manatee - good tip. I think I commented here a few weeks ago that 'who is telling the truth?' isn't the question whose answer will decide the referendum - although events may be about to prove me wrong.
Certainly I can understand how emotions can be stronger than evidence. Mrs Beest teaches antenatal classes, and can clearly demonstrate with ample evidence that the best birth outcomes happen at home or in small, midwife-led units. But fear invariably triumphs and new parents want to be in the big hospital 'just in case'.
Similarly, Ukip is a party of anger - against what, beyond the otherness of modern life is sometimes hard to tell - and its adherents will rant copiously about the dreadful doings in Brussels or the spineless UK government surrendering once-great Britain to Muslims or immigrants. That's their appeal, but they lack the intellect and the political nous to broaden the anger by stretching the truth without straying into outright falsehood, as with the £350m claim and the misappropriation of the company logos. Once people know - rather than merely suspect - that you're not on top of your case, you have a big hill to climb.
Remain, on the other hand, has what should be the simpler task of presenting the alternative to the imperfect but manageable status quo. Present the alternative as a leap in the dark - as they, belatedly, have in the leaflet I got last week - and offer themselves in contrast as a safe, responsible pair of hands to calm the fears they must be feeling. It won't convince the fruitcakes, of course, and the true believers already get it; but it ought to be enough to convince the small group in the middle who didn't make up their minds months ago. And, touch wood, it's beginning to look like it has.
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>> Remain, on the other hand, has what should be the simpler task of presenting the
>> alternative to the imperfect but manageable status quo. Present the alternative as a leap in
>> the dark - as they, belatedly, have in the leaflet I got last week -
>> and offer themselves in contrast as a safe, responsible pair of hands to calm the
>> fears they must be feeling.
Or as I might say, should I be pre-disposed to disagree, the fears they have just created :)
One also has to accept the implied premise that the status quo will be the status futuro (status esse?) if we remain, which I have always questioned.
How one hears the message depends so often on which end of the telescope one has to one's eye, would you agree? And we all think we are looking down the right end.
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>> Another asked if
>> I wanted to be governed by Gove, BoJo and Farage. If that is the kind
>> of reasoning that people are voting Remain on, then we should not be having a
>> referendum.
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Although I have read plenty suggesting neoliberalism and a general lurch to the right (perhaps with racist undertones) is a likely outcome of a post Brexit government. Whilst I wouldn't presume to make direct comparisons of UKIP's campaigning with Germany of the 1930s due to the offence it can easily cause, I would highlight that scapegoatism is a factor in both: blame the immigrant, blame the EU. If Brexit win - who will the next scapegoat be ? Who will be the scapegoat if (as I believe) things don't go well for the newly isolated (independent if you prefer) UK ?
The reaction of the markets today to the very slightly increased likelihood of a Remain vote (I won't say 'victory', we will have to live together whatever the outcome) says all that is needed (to me) about the financial implications of Brexit. Everything else, every other argument (to me) pales in comparison whether you embrace all the EU stands for or not (and I don't).
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We could cut immigration into the UK by at least 100k people a year.. without leaving the EU.
By cutting non EU immigration.
SImples.. if you don't speak English to a required standard, you cannot come in.
Of course, the Commonwealth would collapse. No more Indian subcontinent brides who don't speak English.
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Legal non-EU immigration is already via point based system. Since 2011, the intra company transfer employees can no longer settle in UK.
But there is no such limit on anyone coming from EU.
Why EU nationals not speaking English will be allowed? The Leave group wants same rule for all countries.
Last edited by: movilogo on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 15:25
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Plenty of Brits (I know a few) work in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Rep etc without much grasp of the local language. Would you have them all sent back here?
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The EU arrangement is give and take. I heard on the Marr show this weekend that 2 million British citizens work in the EU. Obviously, the Leave side never take this in to their consideration. One simply has to ask why they choose to ignore this and present migration as a one-way door, not the revolving one it clearly is. Of course, Brits abroad are "ex-pats", right, not migrants, I suppose?
So why are people still so determined to believe the flannel from Leave and present it as some kind of closed case? I do wonder.
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>> 2 million British citizens work in the EU. Obviously, the Leave side never take this in to their consideration.
And the number of EU citizens working in UK is more than that. I don't think even if UK leaves EU overnight they will be all treated like illegal immigrants.
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>>And the number of EU citizens working in UK...........
What does it matter if they're working?
I am always confused whether the immigrants are taking our jobs or our benefits.
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>> Although I have read plenty suggesting ... a general lurch to the right (perhaps
>> with racist undertones) is a likely outcome of a post Brexit government
But should we get that from a UK government, we can chuck them out in 2020, by which time we will scarcely be disengaged from the EU. Unless of course it's what the majority want - and I don't think that most Brexiters want that.
>> The reaction of the markets today to the very slightly increased likelihood of a Remain
>> vote (I won't say 'victory', we will have to live together whatever the outcome) says
>> all that is needed (to me) about the financial implications of Brexit.
Perhaps the falls and subsequent rise are just self fulfilling prophesies. I certainly considered selling some investments but I am fairly sanguine about a recovery even if there is a Brexit vote - big companies that make up most of the market usually have global exposure. I actually invested a bit more cash on the drop. The idea that the UK leaving the EU can materially affect world trade is not congruent with the view that we are not big enough to go it alone, so which is it? Neither IMO.
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>> The idea that the
>> UK leaving the EU can materially affect world trade is not congruent with the view
>> that we are not big enough to go it alone, so which is it? Neither
>> IMO.
>>
Or perhaps both, I don't see the incongruence you cite. The argument is surely not that the UK cannot go it alone, it is that it is better off 'not' going it alone ? I certainly think that leaving the EU would impact world trade but that any beneficiaries would be outside the UK and that the UK itself would be diminished in the short, medium and even long term. It's not about BeLeave, it's about BePragmatic.
I've experienced immigration policy in other countries and have been successfully granted a number of visa's (and residence) based on my own academic qualifications and expertise in three. I can speak from experience that Australians still scapegoat s457 visa holders (skilled temporary migrants) for taking Aussie jobs. So, the question is who will the next scapegoat be for Brexit supporters even if an Australian style system were implemented ?
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What on earth did Leave think would happen? Ignoring who I do or do nto agree wiht, someone needs staking to an ant hill.
From the BBC article...
1) Nissan is taking legal action against the Vote Leave campaign, after its logo was displayed in a Leave campaign leaflet.
The logo appeared in a pro-Brexit flyer alongside those of other major global manufacturers.
The company said it hoped legal proceedings would prevent future "false statements and misrepresentations" appearing in Leave campaign literature.
Nissan executives have previously said the firm would like Britain to remain in Europe.
2) Toyota has said its operations would be best served if Britain remains in the EU
Last week Toyota said use of its logo could "mislead those reading into thinking that Toyota could endorse the Vote Leave campaign".
Toyota, which built more than 10% of UK-manufactured cars last year, said it was also considering taking legal action against "unauthorised use" of its trademarks.
3) Unilever has also complained about the use of its corporate logo in a Vote Leave leaflet.
It called its inclusion a "complete misrepresentation" of the company's position on the European referendum vote.
The Anglo-Dutch firm said it was planning to complain to the Electoral Commission, the UK's elections watchdog.
"We weren't consulted or asked if we were happy for our name to appear. If we had been, we would never have allowed this to happen," said a Unilever spokesman in a statement.
"Our position couldn't be clearer. We firmly support Britain remaining."
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Airbus and GE were also misrepresented in that leaflet - under the heading 'myth buster'! They've issued similar threats to Vote Leave.
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So the leaflet said or implied that Nissan, Toyota, Unilever, Airbus and GE were in favour of leaving and now they are all threatening Leave over these false claims?
I haven't seen the leaflet, were there any companies featured in it that actually DO support leave?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 16:16
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The global powerhouse that is Wetherspoons.
Vauxhall's logo was featured too. One of our mods supports Vauxhall and Leave, but Vauxhall supports Remain.
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Some large companies do not get involved in politics and therefore wouldn't campaign for stay in a political sense. But they have publicly associated themselves in the press in terms of the importance of us remaining in Europe.
The letter was in the Times - which you have to pay to access - so I give other links about this:
www.itv.com/news/2016-02-23/business-leaders-letter-to-the-times-in-full/
uk.businessinsider.com/ftse-bosses-business-leaders-pro-eu-letter-times-brexit-2016-2
My employer backs stay and has said if we vote to leave the EU then future investment would have to be reconsidered for the UK. Understand that but it might be bad news for myself and colleagues.
But thats okay because it would be for the greater good ;-)
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Large multinational companies will favour EU. It allows them to avoid tax by lending money to their "ghost entities" to other EU countries and then paying a high interest on the loan - thus showing that as expense and hence non taxable. They can also control the wage by taking employees from outside the UK. If labour market confined to UK only, they will end up paying higher wages.
So they (I mean their board of directors and not necessarily all employees) have good reasons to remain in EU.
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>>So they (I mean their board of directors and not necessarily all employees) have good reasons to remain in EU.
And presumably all the small companies that supply them products and services. And presumably all the employees of those companies. And presumably all the businesses where employees of the above spend their wages. And presumably their employees. And presumably the shops where they spend their wages...
etc. etc. etc.
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So it's all about tax avoidance for the directors, are you serious???
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...or clutching at straws?
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I am not a businessman far from it.A company like Nissan making good quality cars which are exported to the continent will face a tariff.That is why Nissan came to the UK in the first place to bypass that tariff.
Of course a big company like Nissan wants us to stay in the E.U.The more I listen to the for and against in the E.U It is all about immigration and stirring up people's hatred.Sorry my missus disagree's with me It is the way I see it.
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See what the constitution of voters is according to Populus...
www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/20/the-referemdum-the-affluent-versus-the-non-affluent-summed-up-in-two-populus-referendum-polling-charts/
(Apologies tinyurl says it's spam and refuses to work)
Last edited by: madf on Mon 20 Jun 16 at 18:38
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I just saw a few undecided voters in their cars. Whilst out for a local walk we bumped into some volunteers handing out remain/stay leaflets. We stopped for a chat. While talking a few cars wound down windows to ask for one of the leaflets.
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>> I am not a businessman far from it.A company like Nissan making good quality cars
>> which are exported to the continent will face a tariff.That is why Nissan came to
>> the UK in the first place to bypass that tariff.
>>
>> Of course a big company like Nissan wants us to stay in the E.U.The more
>> I listen to the for and against in the E.U It is all about immigration
>> and stirring up people's hatred.Sorry my missus disagree's with me It is the way I
>> see it.
>>
Well put Dutchie, well put. Whatever the ills of the EU this is about pipe-dreams and nasty (or myopic) scapegoatism (which is alarmingly popular). If the decision is to Leave - who will be blamed 'next' if Leave's vision doesn't quite work out and the people seduced by their campaigning express disquiet ? They have already established a track record of blaming 'the other' during this campaign after all.
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I agree with you Dutchie.
I have decided to Vote Remain.
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So having been Floppy you're back as Flippy?
No problem. Right decision.
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DON'T FORGET TO POST MY LEAVE VOTE!
Last words of dying WW11 veteran who fought for his country until the end.
His family said it was his final act before he died because he loved Britain.
He believed what he fought for wasn’t what we have now.
Mr Moore was a true hero whose last wish was to see his country, a country he loved, free of the European Union.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3651460/Grieving-family-reveal-war-veteran-s-dying-wish-post-Leave-vote-fighting-country-end.html
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What did he fight for?
I would suggest that a democratic Europe, united in peace and trade , in which you can travel freely and do business with one another rather than a group of countries at war with each other with terrible atrocities being committed as a result of the rise of rabid nationalistic dictatorships might have been the dream of many who fought in that war.
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>> What did he fight for?
Most likely the bloke stood next to him.
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>> DON'T FORGET TO POST MY LEAVE VOTE!
>>
>> Last words of dying WW11 veteran who fought for his country until the end.
Yes. Very moving, but:-
It doesn't necessarily mean that his judgement and decision were correct.
If you are not alive on election day, then you shouldn't have a vote. Otherwise, what comes next? Votes for unborn children?
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Otherwise, what comes next? Votes for unborn children
Since they, rather than the old and dying, will be affected by the decision there might be a good case. ;-)
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"Since they, rather than the old and dying, will be affected by the decision there might be a good case. ;-)"
There is pressure in some quarters for the voting age to be lowered ........ we'll get there eventually ;-)
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>
>> If you are not alive on election day, then you shouldn't have a vote.
I did wonder how long it'd be
:-)
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How would that work then?
You would have to have identifiable postal votes for a start. The result of the the referendum would have to be postponed until all deaths occurring up to the election date had been registered. (That would be 5 days and 8 in Scotland). You would then have to check the postal votes to see if the dead had actually voted and adjust the totals accordingly
Probably simpler to let things be?
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>> How would that work then?
.
.
.
>> Probably simpler to let things be?
Quite. I wasn't meaning that my post should be taken completely seriously.
Rather, what I meant was, that however emotive this might be, dying men are not by definition gifted with great wisdom. His wishes are not a sound basis upon which to make a judgement.
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I know you weren't being serious Duncan. I was just making the observation that things people say aren't always practical in the real world.
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>> DON'T FORGET TO POST MY LEAVE VOTE!
>>
>> Last words of dying WW11 veteran who fought for his country until the end.
And the other side of the same coin:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-second-world-war-veterans-come-out-against-brexit-a7019646.html
Why not post that too, Gospodin Sobaka?
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www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/eu-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-says-europe-must-change-dramatically-if-britain-remains-a-member-a3276606.html
Pity he doesn't say how or it what areas. Perhaps the remain campaign would be doing better if he'd/they'd state more detail about this reform that they wish to see.
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Fresh from the Couldn't Make It Up department: a third of Outies believe MI5 is conspiring with the government to fix the referendum.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-live-leave-voters-mi5-conspiracy-government-a7092806.html
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Known as getting your excuses in early.
Laughable.
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Perfectly normal thinking for some, I've seen people claim everyone from the bookies and opinion poll companies through to economic think tanks are in on rigging the vote. As al says it's an excuse, they just can't conceive why everyone doesn't think like them, therefore it's a conspiracy.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 11:10
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Nothing is impossible. Before Snowden incident we didn't know how govt. was tracking us secretly.
Also, in this day and age, a whole airliner can vanish without trace!
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"Nothing is impossible."
There have been case of vote-rigging using postal votes - that is why my wife drops mine in at the polling station on the day.
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>>As al
>> says it's an excuse, they just can't conceive why everyone doesn't think like them, therefore
>> it's a conspiracy.
I think you'll find that is the same with the diehards (and the bigots) on both sides. And I could not take such a black or white position.
Most thinking people I know can see both sides of the argument and probably agree on 80% of what matters, In or Out.
Anybody who thinks that the EU is primarily responsible for all the things they don't like, or on the other hand for all the relative peace and prosperity we enjoy, has got it very wrong IMO.
To me, the question itself is the wrong one.
As a process, the government's job should be to consider "how the UK can be made secure, prosperous, fair and a good place to live" (feel free to develop that 'problem statement' you like).
That does not boil down to, or even start with, the binary question "should we Leave or Remain?", which is why there should never have been a referendum. It's an idiotic way to run a country.
As it happens I don't think In or Out makes nearly as much difference to our prospects as a whole host of other factors and decisions by government. But I was only asked to vote on one binary choice.
Making the best of it, I opt for what I see as the most democratic form of government on offer, and out of the half-warmed-fish that is neither a customs-free zone with shared product standards or a completed USE (if we stay In, then the fiscal/political stresses created by the euro will have to be dealt with).
My boon companion of nearly 39 years has voted Remain. I do not consider her "wrong". We have cancelled each other out so I suppose we could have just "paired" and saved the trip to the post box.
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<1>"As a process, the government's job should be to consider "how the UK can be made secure, prosperous, fair and a good place to live" (feel free to develop that 'problem statement' you like).
That does not boil down to, or even start with, the binary question "should we Leave or Remain?""
I agree. However, that's not really the issue for most/many of the Leaves, is it? Nor what they are trying to address?
How would your [much better] question address fear of foreigners, a wish to return to some imaginary past days of Empire, the wish for some perceived degree of self determination etc. etc.?
Because the unpleasant truth is that for many people the good of the UK as a whole is not part of their decision making process.
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>> >>As al> says it's an excuse, they just can't conceive why everyone doesn't think like them, therefore> it's a conspiracy.
>>
>>
>> I think you'll find that is the same with the diehards (and the bigots) on both sides.
Oh absolutely i don't disagree.
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Haha! .. I've only just spotted the change of heading. You see, I don't bother to read any replies from the innies, as I've made up my mind, and voted out weeks ago (postal)
I'm the same with any pro EU politician. I watched Marr on the iPlayer, FF past Corbyn, and just listened to Gove.
Paddy-from-the-bogs (O'Brien on LBC) was going on about Brexiteers and con-spiracy theories for THREE HOURS (not that I listened to more than 5 mins of him)
Tarzan and Farage on LBC Radio @ 5:00pm today, should be interesting, then we've got the BIG one this evening on Beeb One = 8 'til 10pm.
Keep taking the pils (Hic!)
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>>I don't bother to read any replies from the innies
Words too big?
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either that or their heads :-)
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Strip away the value-laden words such as "conspiracy", "in cahoots", "rigged" et cetera and consider the question objectively.
No, I don't believe they are fiddling the count, but the gubbermint appears to be using all its resources to promote Remain, and few could deny that it has been economical with the actualité. Why should MI5 be exempt if it had some useful data? "Conspiracy" can be anything from misusing information held for unrelated purposes to toppling governments, and everything in between.
Clearly I don't know whether it is happening or not, and I'm not at all exercised about it. But if senior campaign figures want to keep their communications confidential, they would be well advised to consider their security; although IMO it is much more likely that non-governmental parties are spying on each each other on both sides of the argument.
This sort of thing isn't unheard of and it is much easier now than it was in the 1980s, when a director of a company I worked for had his home phone bugged during a takeover bid (the private snoop involved went to jail for 3 months IIRC).
Generally its prudent to assume that if something can be done, it will be done by somebody sometime.
Forget the wild theories.
The real story here, which should have been the headline, is (quoting from the article) "alarming lack of trust in the Government’s conduct".
I think (hope maybe) that the PM and Chancellor have applied the wrong condiment to their chips with that conduct regardless of the result, and won't last long. Should Osborne ever become PM I might well want to exercise my freedom of movement:)
Isn't this fun? I'll miss it when it's over.
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"Isn't this fun? I'll miss it when it's over."
I don't imagine they'll miss it down at the local council offices; I've just been down to collect the referendum paraphernalia in readiness for an early start on Thursday morning and they are looking pretty frazzled. I don't imagine that dodgy Dave's delay for the dozy helped matters.
I sense far, far more interest in this referendum than any other poll where I have assisted, and a large turn-out is anticipated. The campaigning has generated a great deal of bile, name-calling and two-fingered salutes, particularly from the 'remain' camp, and I hope that we don't see any fisticuffs on my normally quiet patch.
Is anyone else here working at the referendum? ISTR Legacylad expressed an interest at one point.
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>> Is anyone else here working at the referendum? ISTR Legacylad expressed an interest at one
>> point.
Did two days CA outreach at the Civic Centre last week. On both occasions board showing meetings/room allocations for day included lengthy events regarding the referendum.
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"On both occasions board showing meetings/room allocations for day included lengthy events regarding the referendum"
Was that 'campaigning' events, or meetings for organising the 'mechanics' of the poll?
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>> Was that 'campaigning' events, or meetings for organising the 'mechanics' of the poll?
Didn't look closely but pretty sure they were organising/training for officers etc.. Nothing suggested they were partisan campaign events.
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Ignore the ship of fools and their intellectual snobbery - this is our last chance to escape from the disaster movie unfolding across Europe.
The EU has brought economic ruin to some member states and condemned a generation of young people to a lifetime of unemployment.
Do we vote to become once more the ultimate masters of our own destiny, with the power to make our laws and control our own borders?
Or do we conclude that we are incapable of running our own affairs and are better off as a meek dependency of an ever-expanding European superstate?
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3651524/Our-chance-escape-disaster-movie-unfolding-Europe-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-stark-choice-facing-Britain-Thursday-s-referendum.html
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You take your opinion from the Daily Mail and Littlejohn. Jesus wept.
Anyway, think about this. Look at it pragmatically instead of dogmatically for a moment. The EU is a bit like nuclear weapons - you can't simply disinvent it. If it wasn't there, we'd all think it a jolly good idea to get all the nations of Europe together under one organisation to promote peace, trade and all the rest of it. It's not going away, it's a good thing in principle, and given those factors it would be foolish not to be leading and influencing from within. It needs change for the sake and benefit of those countries inside and outside. We are a heavyweight country and can be a force for good in doing this, but only from within.
The IFA I met with last night told me he'd posted his IN vote already. No brainer. "It's the economy/financial markets, stupid".
Dog, respectfully, you've decided to isolate yourself personally from the world by moving to a bog in a forest on the top of a cliff which nobody can find. I don't think applying that principle to the entire nation is going to do us much good and it seems to me you're incapable of divorcing your personal desire for isolation from your international views. You're entitled to your view and your vote, and I'm delighted we still live in a world where that's the case. But I ardently hope you're in a minority come Thursday.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 11:58
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The EU has brought economic ruin to some member states and condemned a generation of young people to a lifetime of unemployment.
.*******
Greece lied to join the EU, falsified its books and kept spending as if there was no tomorrow.
Spain had a massive property boom which ended with hundreds of thousands of unoccupied properties and banks nearly bust.
Italy lets the Mafia run most of its cities and half its Government employees do little work.
Never mind: that's ALL the fault of the EU...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 12:52
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>> Greece lied to join the EU, falsified its books and kept spending as if there was no tomorrow.
I think you're confusing the EU and the Eurozone.
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The BBC is wringing every last drop of emotion form the horrific murder of Mrs. Cox.
Endless pictures, endless tributes.
The message is " Mrs. Cox was a saint; she was an ardent "Remain" campaigner: therefore to honour her memory we should vote "Remain".
Balderdash - she was a left wing politician, she was a social activist in all her jobs prior to becoming an MP, she was on Geldorf's boat sneering at ordinary working folk.
Most of all she was an attractive lady.
I wonder if the reaction would have been the same if she had been ugly old man on the "Leave" side?
Note well, that the social media has a lot of Remain bile directed at Leave, many suggesting or wishing that a certain leave politician should be shot & stabbed and several boasting that they would do so!
The death of one person in this way, is sad; but remember that it's the future of our country at stake - much more important than one person.
Vote REMAIN for Britain to be subsumed into a Federal Europe, one voice amongst many (and largely ignored, at that)
Vote LEAVE on Thursday for an independent, outward looking to the whole world, Britain.
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Why do you keep bringing this back into the debate? I know you're a pretty awful person, but surely keep trying to bring this poor woman's murder into it is sick even by your standards?
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Roger is a bit indignant because Ms Cox was 'on Geldorf's (sic) boat sneering at ordinary working people'.
Enough to make any decent democratic chap snort and stamp if only for the record. Keep the faith Ruggiero! Really these people...
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On this occasion Roger is scarcely exaggerating, I've just been listening to further tributes on Radio 4, including a moving interview with Jo Cox's husband.
In the ordinary way of things, entirely reasonable and expected, but it's also reasonable I think when Jo Cox has been so strongly linked with Remain (thanks to Polly Toynbee, Alex Massie and others contextualising the attack in the "angry" tone of Leave) to suppose that it will be having a significant effect on some voters' decisions. The polls are not inconsistent with that supposition.
As I write this, another interviewee has just stated that "she had strong views, and I believe she was killed because of those views". I agree as it happens, but it's a pretty clear message "good person who was passionate about the Remain case murdered by bad person in favour of Leave".
I certainly won't be whining about the result either way, to me it was always a question of the least bad rather than the right and wrong options, but regardless of the result I think more care should have been taken in the days before the poll, given other strict rules around campaigning.
I hold to my view that it is how the country's leaders deal with the circumstances we are in that will have the greatest effect on our prosperity, health and happiness. That is a cause for concern. Being in or out of the EU won't in itself fix anything.
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>> The BBC is wringing every last drop of emotion form the horrific murder of Mrs.
>> Cox.
You seem to be doing a pretty good job on here yourself.
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 23 - Ambo
