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Ongoing debate.
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Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 25 May 16 at 01:33
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VOTING.....
Our council is now sending out forms for prospective Presiding Officers and Poll Clerks. Anyone wishing to take on such a role might want to approach their council and ask about vacancies. I think, from the P&CC thread, legacylad expressed an interest.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 19 May 16 at 12:24
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We got our official voting guide from the Electoral Commission this morning, as I imagine did most UK households. There are statements from the two lead campaigns. The Remainders have a good statement. The Outers have I think blown it with their own poor statement, if they hadn't already with their lack of group-to-group solidarity. One would suspect government bias at work in the guide, but it points out that "This information is not from the Electoral Commission".
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What is the outer statement just curious.?
Of course the government will be bias they want in.Be glad when it is all over the endless discussions are getting tedious.It is a important vote do, people should turn up to vote it will affect them in or out.
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The statement is too long for me to type out but you should get your own copy shortly.
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>> The statement is too long for me to type out but you should get your
>> own copy shortly.
tinyurl.com/h3fla5s (item on Electoral Commission website).
Page 5
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>> Here you are - direct from The Guardian, the paper of choice for "remainiacs"
>>
Calling your opponents "maniacs" - or implying they are - is hardly a ringing endorsement of your own judgement. All it does is convince me that some of those who want to leave are so dedicated to their cause they have lost any sense of proportion.
Last edited by: madf on Sat 21 May 16 at 07:32
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The article is worth a read - Guardian columnists don't toe a single line - but it's a bit muddled and it's mostly about the euro, which isn't a direct issue in this referendum because the UK doesn't use it and our exit wouldn't change how it affects us. More than that, even, it's about promoting the author's new book.
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>> Calling your opponents "maniacs" - or implying they are - is hardly a ringing endorsement
>> of your own judgement. All it does is convince me that some of those who
>> want to leave are so dedicated to their cause they have lost any sense of
>> proportion.
It's nothing to the epithets applied to we Brexiteers!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 21 May 16 at 16:00
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It's nothing to the epithets applied to we Brexiteers!
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But but they did it as well!
Sounds like something a child would say.
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This mornings puff from the stay in brigade is almost dressed up to look like an official notice about the vote from the electoral commission. Just enough to say, "oh no it isn't" and get away with it, but the elderly or the tabloid reader could well be taken in.
If one was in any doubt, the gloves are off now for sure...
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Osborne is reported as saying that Brexit would reduce house prices.
That is precisely one of the reasons why I might vote to leave. Uncontrollable immigration and London being seen as a safe haven for dubious foreign investors' money have pushed up house prices and rents above the pocket of many people. That is unsustainable, and has to be stopped somehow.
Leaving the EU means that we would have more control over things like this, in the long term. Staying in the EU means we will not.
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I think many of the investors are from outside the eu. I don't think it would make much difference either way.
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Exactly sooty. And the UK has potential remedies for tax fiddlers and money launderers that it can choose to use, or not.
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>> I think many of the investors are from outside the eu. I don't think it
>> would make much difference either way.
Similarly, there is no certainty that 'out' guarantees a stop to, still less a reversal of, migration from EU. The government's difficulty in controlling non-EU migration of skilled/in demand workers is another pointer to the lack of simple and definite solutions. If the economic demand is there then it will be problematic for government to 'buck the market'.
If we want retain some sort of 'associate' Membership in a wider trade zone, in style of Switzerland and Norway, then free movement is unlikely to be negotiable.
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>> Osborne is reported as saying that Brexit would reduce house prices.
>>
>> >>
Economic forecasters.
The one group of people who manage to make astrologers look clever.
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How could anyone in their right mind even con-sider voting to remain in the European Union after watching this video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k
*Posted by Roger earlier*
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k
Lost interest after intro with usual stuff about determining our own laws.
We had a Queen's Speech this week outlining the governments plans for legislation in the next parliamentary session. If the EU dominated our legislative process then surely there would be a significant, nay predominant, place in HM's speech for those imported laws.
Which ones were they?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 21 May 16 at 14:08
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>> Which ones were they?
Most UK implementation of EU laws is stuPidly added to by the UK.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/21/westminster-not-brussels-is-to-blame-for-uk-over-regulation
Even the DT says so
And I see no signs of the Brexiteers acknowledging that : according to them - OFFICIALLY = we are better at legislation than thE EU
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 22 May 16 at 04:09
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The majority of deep sea fishing from the UK was off the coast of Iceland for Cod and Haddock.Untill they put a 200 mile limit off their coast.
The local fisherman carry some blame for the low quotas of the British Coast Dog.They underquoted the amount of fish they where catching to the commission.Maybe something to do with rivalry between fisherman I don't know.
But they didn't fight a good case for their own quotas.Herring and Mackerel is more sold on the continent than here
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>>The local fisherman carry some blame for the low quotas of the British Coast Dog.
You may well be right on that score Dutchie me ole son, being you're an ex seaman, and I'm a land lubber.
Tis criminal though IMO that so much fish has to be thown back whence it came, when people are dying of starvation in many parts of this goddam world.
I HATE the EU, but love Europe.
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It would seem that the nation is almost equally decided over whether to remain or leave.
So, whatever the result, almost half the population is going to be upset!
Without the consoling thought that, in five years time we will be able to reverse things!
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Not quite the case though really
What I read (here maybe?) was that overwhelmingly the younger generations want to remain whereas older people want to leave.
But younger people are less likely (or older people more likely, whichever fits best!) to vote so the vote is likely to not reflect true opinion.
I also read that there's a lot of people who are declaring an interest one way or another when polled but really don't know which is best, or which they will vote for on the day.
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"overwhelmingly the younger generations want to remain whereas older people want to leave."
As the younger generation have been complaining about house prices and 'getting onto the ladder', I can't really see why Dave n' George have put out the latest scare-story about a reduction of house-prices in the event of Brexit - surely this would be a good thing?
I can only assume that the story is designed to frighten DM readers, for whom house-prices are everything.
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This isn't a response, just something else I remembered from the telly the other day. The under 30s or thereabouts have grown up with us being in Europe and know no different, so their "allegiance" is to what they grew up with, i.e. a united Europe, and they do not have the patriotic feelings like older generations simply because it's not in their knowledge.
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>> The under 30s or thereabouts have grown up with us being in Europe
>>
Scarily it's the under 40s really ...
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It's all about perspective. I would agree that younger people tend to have a more open view of the world and its inhabitants and don't really understand the narrow nationalistic view of many of their parents. I would see that as progress.
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>> It's all about perspective. I would agree that younger people tend to have a more
>> open view of the world and its inhabitants and don't really understand the narrow nationalistic
>> view of many of their parents. I would see that as progress.
I might have agreed if you were talking about my parent's generation, who were far less likely to have travelled outside the UK much. Ours (I'm 63 this week) are I would say very open to 'foreign' cultures and ideas and likely to travel much more.
The assumption that young people are more adaptable is almost certainly true but they are in my experience also more fearful of change. So much of what they know is all they have ever known.
When in my last employer the three-yearly cull resulted in redundancies, it was usually the 20-30 year olds that were most upset and worried about the consequences.
The status quo bias is a strong one. That is essentially the rationale for the Remain PR - change will be risky/bad. That has strong appeal for those not inured to life's knocks and changes of course.
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"I might have agreed if you were talking about my parent's generation .........."
I'm 66 and from my life-experiences, I concur with all that you say in that post.
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Presumably so, HM. They can get the Sun readers with the exchange rate, which will mean (and is already causing) higher petrol prices.
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...patriotic feelings like older generations...
The one fruitcake I met on Saturday (seventies, unbrushed teeth, several days' of breakfast down his jumper) had a rant about the 'contempt' of EU commissioners for anyone with a British accent - which he claimed to have experienced in 'representing the City' in Brussels, then concluded with "We'll get by by just being British, as we always did before." I've heard less aggressive versions of the same (often citing the 'Great' in Great Britain, as if it meant more than 'Large Brittany') from other, older Outies. No-one under 55 has said anything so meaninglessly simplistic.
One refreshing thing for me has been how many over-55s have expressed unequivocal support for staying in. It's almost cured me of my rolly-eyed 'old people nowadays' preconceptions. Almost.
};---)
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 23 May 16 at 11:23
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"It's almost cured me of my rolly-eyed 'old people nowadays' preconceptions. Almost."
Come on now, Will, don't let your ageist prejudices blind you to reason. Remember, one day, you will grow up ........ or, at least, I hope you will.
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As you know, I'm firmly in the leave camp, but I do think Cameron's project fear is having a big impact.
Every day we are bombarded with dire predictions from him and his big-business allies, plus of course, Government influenced Civil Service departments.
Those are, of course guesses, as is much of the rhetoric from both sides.
On balance I fear that Remain will win, which will relegate us to a region of the United States of Europe, being forced into the failing euro, our armed forces being part of a E.U army, our trade agreements negotiated (e.g.TTIP) by others, whose interests are not necessarily ours, the CAP being run for the benefit of small, inefficient continental farmers and our fishing industry hamstrung, as it is now.
Cameron's so-called "renegotiation" is a fraud: it is not even sure to be ratified!
The canard that in the EU "we will have influence" is a complete falsehood. Not one single proposal which the UK wanted passed by the EU parliament has been carried.
As one of the largest net contributors to the E.U. budget, we are welcomed only for our money.
As one of the countries with the largest population per land unit, be it acres or hectares, we are being filled with un-chosen immigrants from the EU at a rate which which is putting severe strain on our housing, health and education infrastructures.
The UK has a welfare system which IS more generous that most of other EU countries, where it is not unusual to all benefits being linked to an individual's contributions (in Spain, for example, no benefit is available without there having been payments IN from that person.)
Even if one agrees that there are many crap jobs being filled by unskilled EU nationals, even if you agree they pay income tax and NI, it is the other in-work benefits which make Britain so attractive. Stiffening our Job Seekers and other out of work benefits and paying a decent wage for these undesirable jobs would certainly encourage native Britons to do them. Yes - it might put up the price of your supermarket veggies, but there would be other benefits which, in my view, would outweigh that.
Proper control of immigration - any talk of which is branded by the new catch-all derogatory epithet of "racist", is by no means the only downside of being a EU member, but it is a central plank.
I do admit that the Leave camp have not published a well thought out plan of action following a Leave vote and that is a serious failing, which may well prove a costly error.
However it is my hope that the British public will not believe all the frighteners which Remain are spraying around: will remember that we are a great nation which has over faced serious problems before and will do so again.
We are too good to be part of someone else's flag.
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>> As you know, I'm firmly in the leave camp, but I do think Cameron's project
>> fear is having a big impact.
The outies still have the brass neck to refer to project fear from the In camp after the Turkey posters etc..........!!!!
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>> >> As you know, I'm firmly in the leave camp, but I do think Cameron's
>> project
>> >> fear is having a big impact.
>>
>> The outies still have the brass neck to refer to project fear from the In
>> camp after the Turkey posters etc..........!!!!
>>
Seems a legitimate fear!
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672563/Turkey-EU-Britain-exclusive-poll-crime-figures-Turks
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>> Seems a legitimate fear!
>>
>> www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672563/Turkey-EU-Britain-exclusive-poll-crime-figures-Turks
Goes from will go to Britain in headline to 'will think about it' in body of report.
And Turkey isn't joining any time soon. Under Erdogan it's heading in another direction.
Even if it's application, currently moving at less than a snail's pace, were fast tracked it would still be susceptible to veto. Germany and Frances are both reportedly unkeen. Are Greece or Cyprus going to agree while latter is still partitioned?
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Daily Express ! Hahahahha.
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>> As you know, I'm firmly in the leave camp, but I do think Cameron's project
>> fear is having a big impact.
>> We are too good to be part of someone else's flag.
Good at what Roger?
We borrow more than anyone else in Europe as a % of GDP over the past 10 years.
We had the worst banking crisis in the EU in 2008.
Our justice system is useless at exporting criminals but excellent at allowing the rich - and the rich ONLY - to preserve their privacy through injunctions.
We have the had the worst case of mass child rape in any city in the EU over the last 5 years
And the last three wars we have taken part in - Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan have been utter disasters.
I suggest some soul searching and humility is in order. But as you support UKIP , I suspect that may be unlikely..
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 23 May 16 at 12:47
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"We borrow more than anyone else in Europe ......................We have the had the worst case of mass child rape in any city in the EU over the last 5 years"
So, you are saying that being part of the EU hasn't really been vey helpful?
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>> "We borrow more than anyone else in Europe ......................We have the had the worst case
>> of mass child rape in any city in the EU over the last 5 years"
>>
>> So, you are saying that being part of the EU hasn't really been vey helpful?
>>
No-one forced Gordon Brown to approve the series of mega takeovers engineered by RBS which lead to its collapse and near extinction of the UK and EC (and world) banking system.
And as you know well, Rotherham was home grown with most of the perpetrators being second generation Commonwealth immigrants - ..
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(in response to WdB) Crude prices are up over 30% in about a month or so. Surely that's what affects petrol prices as much as anything? But I get your point - I think.
But while on exchange rates - I bought some Le Mans tickets for myself and UK & European buddies, and this morning have been working out what they owe me. The exchange rate is 10% worse than it was in November. That's quite some shift... not really sure if Europe has got stronger or UK weaker, I suspect the latter, over the uncertainty.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 23 May 16 at 11:54
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Roger make's some valued points which is his right.But to say that the Uk is only valued for its money in Europe is not true.
I can only speak for my country but the UK is highly valued by the majority of Dutch people.And not only for its money.The UK is seen as a buffer between France and Germany.
Of course this country will survive outside the E.U.The problem is we don't know the price we have to pay if the vote is out.
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Our reputation and standing in Europe is already being negatively affected and long term damaged by the out campaign in much the same way that those Scots who did not want independence were, and still are, tarred with the same brush as those who did.
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"Just arrived!!"
How utterly thrilling; I am truly delighted for you.
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How on Earth did we manage before 1974! - Whatever the result, I'll probably be "out of it" within 10 years, it's the younger generations that are going to have to adapt, and I for one fear for them, they've seen nothing yet.
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That's true whichever way the referendum goes. There is a widening wealth gap which will end up with extremes of haves and have-nots. I predict a serious backlash in the next twenty or thirty years, as it is still developing but no-one is doing anything to stop it.
btw my poll cards arrived today too, I can hardly contain myself :-)
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 23 May 16 at 17:08
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My poll card arrived today as well.
I cant wait to vote.
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I can wait.
Just thought that, given others had questioned when cards would arrive, it was worth mentioning they were now being issued.
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Ours came last week!
Like Bromp, I can wait. The Out side seems to be disintegrating under the weight of its own muddled thinking and internal disagreements; there may not be much left in another four weeks. Boris Johnson's career may not recover from the examinations he's failed in the course of this campaign. His main disagreement seems to be with himself.
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Remain is no less muddled, I have rarely heard such transparent tripe as most of its propaganda. Weight is on their side, but that isn't surprising given the interests of comfy political and big business turkeys who prefer not to vote for Christmas.
I do however think that the status quo bias will win out on the day.
It's a very odd and asymmetrical choice, between doing something unspecific i.e. 'not being in the EU' which is actually many potential paths, and doing essentially nothing, continuing as we are.
Not easy to make a positive argument in favour of either.
What Boris is paying at I have no idea, but it could be a political ploy - relatively easy for a man of his undoubted charisma to swerve into "well I did warn you but here's how we sort out the mess, just put me in charge". The party might not buy that, but if he looks like a winner, who knows?
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"I have rarely heard such transparent tripe as most of its propaganda........"
And I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the threatened "reduction in house-prices" is such a bad thing. I thought it was pretty unanimous that house prices were way too high.
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Reduction due to lack of demand. The cause of lack of demand is a decline in GDP. Ergo, total wealth creation fall leading to house price fall, as we enter a recession.
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Agreed, that was an odd thing to bring up, perhaps calculated to scare some affluent baby-boomers away from voting Out, but equally likely to push a few younger voters the other way. Hard to see a vote either way having a clear-cut effect on the property market as a whole; any downward pressure on prices is likely to come from the general economic malaise we're likely to suffer if we cut ourselves off from the Single Market.
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>> The Out side seems to be disintegrating under the weight of its own muddled thinking
>>
>> Remain is no less muddled,
>>
Anybody who expected balanced, logical, factual debate was always going to be disappointed, just as with the Scottish Independence referendum.
In either case people can quote a select group and view of historical "facts" as part of an argument, but any forecast or "this will happen" arguments are always going to be opinion / guesswork / hopes / fears.
The only real basis for a decision that I can see is
1. whether or not you are happy with things as they are now (and however you believe we have got here)
and
2. on "principle", do you want to be part of a group of countries or do you believe we should not be part of any legal partnership with any other nation.
FWIW despite being part of the "oldie" but still working group in this place, I will be voting to remain, and I have believed all along that the national vote will be to remain.
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>> I do however think that the status quo bias will win out on the day.
I get the gut feeling that there are a lot of silent "Leaves" out there. It mat not be as clear cut as the polls suggest, and the increasingly ridiculous claims of the Remain campaign may become counter productive.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 24 May 16 at 12:41
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From end of this week officials will be subject to 'purdah' and there should be no further interventions using Treasury etc resources.
Will be interesting to see how, if at all, that changes the tone etc of remain.
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My gut feeling is that if we leave we are running away from the problems which excist at the moment in Europe.
Refugees on the move due to the Middle East wars.Nigel Farage shouts we want our country back.
What he means by that I don't know this country has never have gone anywhere.
Immigration is there trump card.Closing boarders has never worked anywhere in a democratic society.
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>> My gut feeling is that if we leave we are running away from the problems
>> which exist at the moment in Europe.
>>
>> Refugees economic migrants on the move due to the Middle East wars perceived benefits and false promises.
Nigel Farage shouts we want our country back.>>
>> What he means by that I don't know this country has never have gone anywhere.
He wants us to control our own destiny, nt to be subject to the rules of a supranational United States of Europe.
>>
>> Immigration is there trump card. Closing borders has never worked anywhere in a democratic society.>>
What is wanted is the unfettered ability to CHOOSE who comes to live here and work.
See many, many, other countries who do this - Australia, New Zealand, the USA ..................(Whether from the E.U does not matter as long as they are qualified and needed for specific types of job.)
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>>>> >> Refugees economic migrants on the move due to the Middle East wars perceived benefits
>> and false promises.
I don't remember 8000 strong refugee camps on the Greek/Macedonian border before the Syrian civil war. Were these "benefits and promises" simultaneously launched with the commencement of hostilities in Syria? If not, you're talking out of your hole again.
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>> >> Refugees economic migrants on the move due to the Middle East wars perceived benefits
Anybody who believes the biggest refugee/DP crisis since 1945 to be 'economic migration' is either deluded or on ra*ist mission.
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>>See many, many, other countries who do this - Australia, New Zealand, the USA ..................(Whether from the E.U does not matter as long as they are qualified and needed for specific types of job.)
I salute you sir, for continuing in your efforts in trying to help these clowns see some sense, but there are none so blind as those who will not see, although I suppose it passes half hour and stimulates discussion.
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To see what, Dog? All I can see is straight through the Outies' deluded promises of free access for the UK to everything we might want, while keeping our drawbridge securely pulled up.
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>>To see what, Dog? All I can see is straight through the Outies' deluded promises of free access for the UK to everything we might want, while keeping our drawbridge securely pulled
It certainly looks like the fear factor has done it's job alright Will, to be expected really I suppose, as society is schooled to mistake.
I may well not bother to vote anyway, even though I have a postal vote, but I await the consequences of once-great Britain voting to remain shackled to the money-squandering, over-bureaucratised European superstate.
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>>I may well not bother to vote anyway
Wow! Some commitment. Even you don't think leaving is important enough to bother with.
Perhaps once-great Britiain is suffering from the malaise of whining racists who can't be bothered to get off their butts to vote.
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Fear factor? I do business all over Europe and outside. I know what a difference our EU membership makes to the ease of doing that business, and hence the importance of that membership to the decisions other countries and companies make to invest and employ people in the UK.
Meanwhile the Outies want to pull the rug from under all that, in return for a vague idea that they might be able to buy us a new rug that's almost as good. Maybe. And they don't know when, or how, or what it'll cost us.
That's not fear; it's reasonable supposition. And the Outies have given us no reason to suppose anything different.
As for
...once-great Britain...
Britain is as great as it's ever been. It's still bigger than Brittany, which is all the name ever meant. You did know that, didn't you?
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See I've got a mate who does business across the world including quite significant work in Europe and he's a confirmed outie. He reckons it will make little difference if we leave.
And it's important to him, it's a small company and he's the sales director and depends on sales for the bulk of his income!
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>>
>> Immigration is there trump card.Closing boarders has never worked anywhere in a democratic society.
>>
I saw this and it struck a chord given the way I perceive Brexiters choose to denigrate any argument which inconveniences their cause.
goo.gl/903D83
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>> I saw this and it struck a chord given the way I perceive Brexiters choose
>> to denigrate any argument which inconveniences their cause.
>>
>> goo.gl/903D83
Link to FT. Seems to be paywalled.
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>>
>> Link to FT. Seems to be paywalled.
>>
Indeed, it's an opinion piece and may be accessible here:
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1fe4e0ec-1e96-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15.html#ixzz49ZdnmPBq
To quote from it.....
There is bespoke invective for any third party who speaks against their cause, always on the theme of elite collusion. .......... No one, in this desert of goodwill, is credited with sincerity.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Tue 24 May 16 at 13:11
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>> I get the gut feeling that there are a lot of silent "Leaves" out there.
Possible. I'm sure there are some who see no purpose in popping their heads up to be called racists/little Englanders/senile OAPs by stoat-danced EU adorers, and who will just vote their mind when the time comes:)
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>> I get the gut feeling that there are a lot of silent "Leaves" out there.
>>
and probably just as many silent "remains"
Anyone who thinks the polls provide a reliable view of the likely outcome does not trust past experience.
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>> stoat-danced EU adorers
I don't think I've come across anyone, in my private life or in the public sphere, who is in favour of Remain but hasn't conceded that the EU isn't perfect and could do with a refresh.
However, it appears that just about everyone on the Leave side seems to believe in some fantastical vision of the UK's democratic perfection and lack of internal corruption. When it suits them to do so in terms of the this referendum, of course. They're usually the first to scream that the country's going to the dogs and that Diana's house prices will give you cancer, usually blaming this perceived malaise on brown and black people, the end of rationing, noisy tuneless 'pop' music and youths hanging round under street lights, and maybe Hitler was right, all of which they then manage to conflate with EU membership somehow.
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Well that about says it all......
Racist and Hitler all within 16 minutes just when I thought we had some sensible discussion to read.
Off to talk to the plants, I'll get more sense.
Pat
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I'm sorry that Roger's complete and utter drivel has upset you, Pat. Good luck with the begonias.
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Sorry Pat, I seem to have set Al. off with my tease - despite the inclusion of the smiley, he not only bit, but obliged with the racist part.
I'll try to behave.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 24 May 16 at 13:34
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Yum yum. Burp.
BTW, I like the "stoat-danced" expression. Not sure where it comes from, not being an expert on stoats (although weasels are weasily identifiable - stoats are stotally different). I have assumed the meaning to be similar to hypnotised or mesmerised.
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I assumed that was just some artefact of autocorrect. Is stoat dancing an actual thing, then?
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They are said to bamboozle prey. I don't know whether it's true, or whether it's related to the weasel war dance!
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>> They are said to bamboozle prey. I don't know whether it's true....
The do indeed. Take a look at this video from National Geographic. It's a lot more interesting thatn the EU debate.
video.nationalgeographic.com/video/worlds-deadliest-ngs/deadliest-stoat?source=relatedvideo
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Ah, very good CG. I had imagined it to be more of a 'look into my eyes' , snake charming sort of thing.
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>> However, it appears that just about everyone on the Leave side seems to believe in
>> some fantastical vision of the UK's democratic perfection and lack of internal corruption.
Somewhat sweeping statement that lacks any credibility. Do you really believe that 'just about everyone' thinks that... or have you posted it just to make a silly point?
The 'just about everyone'... do they all think this, or
>> and maybe Hitler was right, all of which they then manage to conflate with EU
>> membership somehow.
>>
Ah, the old Hitler reference.
What Boris said was that Hitler and Napoleon had tried to go for the US of E route... and failed.. and now the EU was trying the same.
There's no relevance to Hitler's atrocities, none whatsoever, it was just a comment about past leaders wanting a European State... if those of a rabid mind on the 'in' campaign wish to deliberately fog the issue by trying to make it something it isn't, then they are just showing themselves up.
What Boris said, a learned man of some note, is factually correct.
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Boris knew what he was saying, and knew the inferences that would arise and knew it would be a controversial thing to say. I expect he was very careful about how he said it. He may seem a bit dozy and bumbling, but he really really isn't.
More difficult to understand is his purpose and aim.
I suspect that Manatee (I think) had it correct in that Boris may well be expecting an "In" vote and then will put himself forward as the sceptic to be trusted with managing our "in-ness"
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 24 May 16 at 14:38
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The most disturbing thing about this whole sorry mess is that the outcome will be decided by the undecided.
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...was it Frankie Boyle who surmised that we were going through a painful EU referendum as a means of deciding who is going to be leader of the Conservative party?....
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>> Do you really believe that 'just about everyone'
>> thinks that... or have you posted it just to make a silly point?
What I believe is that just about everyone on the Leave side is making that argument, whether they believe it or not, presenting a retreat to UK-only governance as some potential return to a never-existing golden age of British Freedom and Democracy, which is by some spurious definition purer and more righteous than the version offered by the EU - a version which is in point of fact very similar to the UK's. For example, Outies bemoan the appointment of the European Commissioner as some kind of undemocratic dictatorship. Well, he's appointed by elected representatives, in very much the same way as the UK's Prime Minister isn't elected by the people, but by the consent of our elected representatives. All points made by "Out" saying EU = Undemocratic whilst UK = Gold Standard Democracy are facile. And wrong.
>> Ah, the old Hitler reference.
I wasn't referring back to Boris's dropped testicle. It was just a casually prejudiced swipe at the sort of person who I mainly recognise behind the "Out" argument. You know, Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, Daily Express Reader-in-Chief.
Boris has somehow managed to lift himself to a previously unimagined level of self-parody. He is doing the job of torpedoing himself far better than I could ever do with my hackneyed, amateurish stick-poking.
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>> What I believe is that just about everyone on the Leave side is making that
>> argument, whether they believe it or not, presenting a retreat to UK-only governance as some
>> potential return to a never-existing golden age of British Freedom and Democracy, which is by
>> some spurious definition purer and more righteous than the version offered by the EU -
>> a version which is in point of fact very similar to the UK's.
No, that's just your take on it. You don't understand their angle (or don't want to) so you've put that label on it.
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Britain once built an Empire without the E.U, we CAN do it again, our Country is strong and viable enough to stand on it's own two feet, people just need to believe! ( and not in Camerons twaddle and scaremongering).
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>> Britain once built an Empire without the E.U, we CAN do it again, our Country
>> is strong and viable enough to stand on it's own two feet, people just need
>> to believe! ( and not in Camerons twaddle and scaremongering).
>>
Our country's strength should be deployed in leading Europe, from within. The days of Empire building are, rightly long gone.
The over-riding impression that people in other EU countries have about the UK is that we do lead, and others follow. And they still want us to Remain. The coward's way is the bottle of whisky + revolver.
The remain argument is the argument of national strength and pride. It is the properly patriotic argument.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 24 May 16 at 14:58
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Our country's strength should be deployed in leading Europe, from within.
If that were to be possible I would probably opt in, but we won't be given the chance to be "Leaders" that will be the job of the "un-accountables", we will simply be Minions dictated to by the "Faceless ones".
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Well, you see, that's unsubstantiated prejudice, devonite. If what you say is true, we'd be in the Euro, and Schengen, by now.
We aren't. We lead, we veto. We have it right and others look on enviously, and with incredulity that we stand to throw it all away.
Try to see us how others see us - it's quite enlightening and broadens the mind.
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That's the only problem I have with Enlightenment, it breeds realisation and then disillusion - Hey-ho that's me I'm afraid! ;-)
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Dev, you do realize you're making no sense at all, don't you?
Britain once built an Empire without the E.U, we CAN do it again...
No, we can't. The British Empire was built (mostly) by conquest and coercion - much as Hitler and Napoleon built theirs. That's an age we're pleased to have left behind. The nations of modern Europe are working consensually to create a peaceful framework for trade, cooperation and social mobility. I'm not sure which part of that you object to.
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>> a peaceful framework for trade, cooperation and social mobility. I'm not sure which part of that you object to<<
I object to the cost of this and can't see that the benefits outweigh the cost to us.
We had a peaceful framework for trade before we joined the Common Market.
We also had a good level of co-operation built on trust.
By social mobility, I appreciate it makes business and leisure travel easier but along with that it also brings open borders which as a small country we can't sustain with our level of benefits if UK citizens are not to suffer even more than we are now.
With a strong leader there would be a deal to be had, but with Cameron his interests are on his own future and advancement after his resignation, and his electorate are the last of his considerations at the moment.
The EU needs us, they want us to stay, what better time to do some hard bargaining?
I clearly remember the last referendum to join the Common Market (or not) and there was never any b******* from either side, they sat down and debated it point by point and it was easy to make a decision.
This time, I fear, so many will not bother voting at all because the whole thing is based upon fear and horror lies.
It's bitter and twisted and even discussions on here go that way too.
Pat
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>> This time, I fear, so many will not bother voting at all because the whole
>> thing is based upon fear and horror lies.
I fear you are right.
I sometimes think that we get the leaders we deserve though, in the same way that popular media are carp because that's all that many people can be bothered with. Thinking is too hard.
It could be my perspective - perhaps my dad said the same thing 30 years ago - but I feel that attention spans are now too diminished for people to get stuck into this sort of thing. I was in a fairly serious meeting the other day when I noticed that 3 of the 6 people there were checking their phones.
Our politicians are accountable only to us, but how many can be bothered even to vote, let alone engage with the actual issues?
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>> The nations of modern Europe are working consensually to create a peaceful framework for trade,
>> cooperation and social mobility. I'm not sure which part of that you object to.
>>
You forgot political.
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>> Our country's strength should be deployed in leading Europe, from within.
>>
>> If that were to be possible I would probably opt in, but we won't be
>> given the chance to be "Leaders" that will be the job of the "un-accountables", we
>> will simply be Minions dictated to by the "Faceless ones".
>>
I respectfully disagree, there is a rather crude adage about tents and urinating out(wards) rather than in(wards) which springs to mind. Outside the EU the UK will have to tow the EU line without any influence and will likely have to pay just as much into the budget for that pleasure.
On accountability, do you think the Civil Service, Quangos, House of Lords etc are more democratic than the EU ? (and no, I'm not a republican or overly bothered about the makeup of the upper house). We are minions, get over it unless you can point to a workable alternative.
The UK was indeed 'once great' in its own right, but 2 world wars unravelled that, this is not an unpatriotic view as I see the modern UK as being 'still great' in so many ways which I'd argue are tied to influence and membership of the EU. I don't see isolationism as contributing in any way to that current or potential future greatness.
The more I see of Brexiters' arguments the more I find myself thinking of them as harmful and damaging and perhaps even unpleasant, certainly not pragmatic or realists. The best I can say is that Brexiters are hankering after an alternative that just cannot exist and ignoring logical economic arguments. I take exception to the labelling of any intellectual/academic analysis as biased or not from 'grass roots' opinion, a very dangerous approach IMHO reminiscent of the very worst political movements.
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>> No, that's just your take on it. You don't understand their angle (or don't want to) so you've put that label on it.
Righto. Sounds legit.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 24 May 16 at 14:54
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>>presenting a retreat to UK-only governance as some
>> potential return to a never-existing golden age of British Freedom and Democracy, which is by
>> some spurious definition purer and more righteous than the version offered by the EU -
>> a version which is in point of fact very similar to the UK's. For example,
>> Outies bemoan the appointment of the European Commissioner as some kind of undemocratic dictatorship.
Well, yes, although every country gets one Commissioner regardless of size. But I'd accept that the EU has a democratic structure, even if nobody can quite remember what it is.
The point at issue though is that it isn't our democracy. Any more than Westminster is Yorkshire's democracy. British MEPs have 8% of the vote in parliament, so whilst the British electorate can chuck out the UK government, they can't chuck out the European one. And as the UK government, in theory at least, makes decisions for the good of the country, not for Yorkshire, the European parliament will (we must hope) do that for Europe as a whole, rather than any individual country within it.
That's not good, or bad, it's just a fact and one of the things that we are making a choice on.
I wish I could believe that Britain would have more influence on Europe from within than without, but I don't. In, we have a vote but little leverage as has been demonstrated perfectly by Cameron. It's easy to see why the EU on the whole would rather have the UK inside the tent, widdling out, rather than outside, urinating into it.
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The 8% figure is obviously right but it's the same as other countries of equivalent population and nobody else is in position to chuck out a European govt single-handed. If however they recognise common interests and form alliances they can wield considerable collective influence. Cameron's problem in part is his failure, both now and in coalition era, to work at those alliances. Whether as a result of the laziness he allegedly has or a desire to look macho to his sceptic colleagues the result is counter productive.
That showed when he tried to get concessions for the City during the Euro crisis and failed, resorting to a veto. And again when 'renegotiating' terms before kicking off next month's referendum. One could even hark back to his opposition time when he set his Euro MP's up with right wingers rather than the centre-right group with which they'd previously allied.
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>> Cameron's
>> problem in part is his failure, both now and in coalition era, to work at
>> those alliances.
>> That showed when he tried to get concessions for the City during the Euro crisis
>> and failed, resorting to a veto.
Which in a way illustrates the problem. The City is an almost uniquely British interest in the EU. Stand by for more fireworks when the Financial Transaction Tax comes back on to the agenda.
www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/08/decision-financial-transactions-tax-june-eu
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Possible. I'm sure there are some who see no purpose in popping their heads up to be called racists/little Englanders/senile OAPs by stoat-danced EU adorers, and who will just vote their mind when the time comes:)
Er hmm, leave the stoats out of it! Or I'll set my weasels on you... :o)
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Tue 24 May 16 at 16:09
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>> Er hmm, leave the stoats out of it!
Still an hour or so before I can start getting as ripped as one.
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The sun is always over the yardarm in some part of the British Empire - Major Bloodnok...
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Haywain
