Non-motoring > Egyptair missing	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: sooty123	Replies: 53

Thu 19 May 16 08:23   Egyptair missing - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36309492 Seems to have gone down just short of the coast. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 08:53   Egyptair missing - smokie

My thoughts are with all who are directly involved, but also with the people dependent on the tourist trade in Egypt, for which it is a further nail in the coffin. I was there in April and the place is becoming desolate and desperate. My "5 star beach hotel" was half closed, and the remaining half was only half full. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 09:04   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

Ships diverted to search area approx 200km due N of Alexandria www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:152380/zoom:10 If you check the cluster of ships close to the SofiaExpress you will find one that is stationary (Oceanus. If you use the Track option you will find that the closest ships have all change course significantly to converge towards where Oceanus is currently stationary. Last edited by: sherlock47 on Thu 19 May 16 at 09:05 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 09:34   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

Who is Beamender99 who copied and pasted above to pprune? Complete with spelling mistakes. You might give credit to this Forum - you never know we may end up with some new members! Is it Zero - lurking? Last edited by: sherlock47 on Thu 19 May 16 at 09:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 10:05   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

Better link... pbs.twimg.com/media/CiziQg1WgAA6CA0.jpg:large Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 10:39   Egyptair missing - smokie

So what are the distances shown on the second link? Presumably distances from the spot they've been asked to congregate at? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 15:24   Egyptair missing - Dutchie

It is happening regulary now air plane crashes.It is a safe way to travel except if the bluming things go down or are sabotaged. Condolences to the people and families if they are gone. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 16:14   Egyptair missing - Armel Coussine

My first long Africa trip was arranged by a London broker, and was very largely on Egypt Air carriers. There was a lot of waiting around in odd places, Tamanrasset, Ndjamena, milling about on the tarmac before going up the tail ramp into a DC somethingorother set up for paratroops. Kit clips surrounded every sideways-positioned seat and they jangled deafeningly throughout with the steady vibration. They don't always coddle the military, just sometimes. For dilettante hacks like me it was all a bit of a party and great fun. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 19 May 16 at 16:15 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 May 16 16:33   Egyptair missing - Armel Coussine

>> waiting around in odd places, Tamanrasset, Ndjamena, milling about on the tarmac before going up the tail ramp into a DC somethingorother set up for paratroops. And in Lagos itself, which looked cold under a grey drizzle from the airconditioned plane. Emerging from the aircraft was like stepping into the steam room of a Turkish bath, a jarring crossed set of signals causing instant muck sweat. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 15:23   Egyptair missing - Bromptonaut

Looks as though technical issues might be a possible cause: www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/21/egyptair-flight-ms804-smoke-detected-in-minutes-before-crash As article points out an incendiary device could produce similar results. OTOH if a terror organisation was responsible then they're tardy in claiming responsibility. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 17:41   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

I read from Sky News this afternoon about the smoke detection, also other temperature sensors in the flight deck area reporting high temperatures. It also said that a 90° turn is standard procedure before a rapid descent to avoid aircraft which may be below you in the air corridor. Also a spiral is a method of rapid descent. news.sky.com/story/1699713/egyptair-crash-data-shows-smoke-near-cockpit Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 17:45   Egyptair missing - Cliff Pope

OTOH if a terror >> organisation was responsible then they're tardy in claiming responsibility. >> Change of advertising tactics perhaps? Once your brand becomes sufficiently well known you can leave others to make the connection. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 20:19   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

Worrying for Airbus if it was a fire in the avionics bay without terrorist assistance. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 20:27   Egyptair missing - sooty123

Possibly, it depends on what caused the fire. If there was a fire at all. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 20:41   Egyptair missing - rtj70

The sensors that went off in sequence started with problems with windows. But it's too early to speculate. We'll know a lot more very quickly. Some poor reporting. One suggested it could take a long time to find the flight recorders and compared it to the Air France plane that crashed into the Atlantic. But nobody knew where that went down in any accurate way and the beacons on the flight recorders were long stopped. They have 30 days to fairly easily find these in a relatively small area. Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 21 May 16 at 20:41 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 20:57   Egyptair missing - Duncan

With the technology available today, why can't aircraft download a constant stream of data to a land based series of computers? The technology we are using nowadays is so 1940s. Last edited by: Duncan on Sat 21 May 16 at 20:58 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:04   Egyptair missing - smokie

I was about to post something similar Duncan. They shoot back some data so that the ground knows the smoke alarm has gone off in the loo but nothing to do with the location, or anything else important. I know we had these discussions when the Malaysian one went missing, and they still have no idea where that one is. I have to say I was surprised how long it took them to find out where this one might have gone down. I'm not sure they really know now, but obviously the debris will help define that. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:08   Egyptair missing - sooty123

As above, it's been covered before. It's down to cost, some do send info, however there's so much information to send that would need to be sent from every aircraft flying. Alot of the info is collected anyway just later on, the chances of needing every bit of data that the a/c collects live is so small it just doesn't work out costwise. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:16   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> I have to say I was surprised how long it took them to find out >> where this one might have gone down. I'm not sure they really know now, but >> obviously the debris will help define that. >> Just because you know roughly where radar contact was lost it still leaves a lot of ocean to search. The aircraft was travelling at about 500 mph, and altering course. I am amazed that they have located the black boxes already. Probably down to there being a lot of military hardware in the area. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:47   Egyptair missing - smokie

I don't think they have located the black boxes have they? And it was at least a day if not two or more before they found anything at all. I know it's a lot of sea to search but what with satellites, radars and all other kinds of info you'd have thought they could pinpoint it at any point in time. After all, I can do that with a flight on my phone... Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:51   Egyptair missing - sooty123

The seas and oceans are very large, it's not like in the films ;-) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 21 May 16 22:15   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

How many maritime searches have you conducted Smokie? I would not be surprised if the aircraft logo on your phone covers several square miles of water. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 21 May 16 at 22:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 00:37   Egyptair missing - smokie

None, obviously. Of course you are correct re the aircraft logo but I wouldn't expect a maritime search to be carried out using a mobile phone app, you must know that wasn't my point. My phone location is reported accurately to within a few yards. They already send the time stamp and a host of other info and as the aircraft already knows exactly where it is all the time I doubt it'd be much effort or cost to add to the current location coordinates to the data burst. That would narrow the search area considerably, or at least would give improved knowledge of where the impact happened, with obvious benefitsre Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 01:12   Egyptair missing - rtj70

Anyone who has used an app like FlightRadar24 will have benefitted from aircraft broadcasting current location (GPS accurate I guess), speed, altitude etc. Planes broadcast this all the time. So for this Egypt Air aircraft, providing there were people running an app listening to the aircraft broadcasts.. we'd know accurately where it was up until it stopped broadcasting it's location. Clearly this app relied on picking up broadcasts. So if a plane was over say central Niger then you'd probably think the plane had vanished. I think the issue is how the data is currently sent - a radio transmission. A more specifically the data needs to be received. Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 22 May 16 at 01:14 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 09:03   Egyptair missing - Bromptonaut

Suspect the kit in use gives a highly accurate report of where it was until it stopped sending data and disappeared from radar. The difficulty is tracking or calculating the trajectory of the debris after a mid air break up. Modern radar incidentally is a very different animal from the direction finding technology of the forties. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 09:46   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> After all, I can do that with a flight on my phone... >> You should contact the AAIB immediately, I am sure they will want to examine your phone to retrieve this vital and precise information. :-) Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 22 May 16 at 09:47 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 10:14   Egyptair missing - rtj70

Planes locations are on systems like Flightradar24 etc. So I think they already know. But you know that already too. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 12:48   Egyptair missing - R.P.

Aircraft that disintegrate in the air don't drop like stones. Bits will be scattered over 10s of square miles. The Jumbo that cam down over Lockerbie was scattered over hundreds of miles. Factor in sea currents and the such like and Flight Radar data is worth bugger all. Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 22 May 16 at 12:49 Reply to this message | Report message       2

Sun 22 May 16 13:21   Egyptair missing - smokie

Yeah, I've been thinking exactly that and agree it's absolutely true. But this morning's Times said a 5000 sq mile search area which is (say) 200 miles by 25 which seems a particularly large area. Well over a day to find anything at all still seems a long time but I guess it's just the way it is. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 13:26   Egyptair missing - Bromptonaut

How does 200*25 compare with Lockerbie? Actually the lack of large amounts of floating debris may suggest the hull, with or without wings, entered the water substantially in one piece. Still a pretty large area of uncertainty both as to where it entered the water and it's trajectory after doing so. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:11   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

As they found out with MH370 if you don't find, or are not looking in the right place for the black boxes before the pinger batteries run out it turns into a very long job. On a maritime scale you still have to get close to the pingers to detect them. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 22 May 16 at 14:13 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:19   Egyptair missing - sooty123

. On a maritime scale you still have to get close >> to the pingers to detect them. >> I think it's a mile, at what depth of water i don't know. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:25   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> I think it's a mile, at what depth of water i don't know. >> Exactly, a plane travelling at 500 mph, no exact position, no impact position, it will not sink vertically, floating wreckage will move. A mile is insignificant in a search area even if you have a rough area to start with. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 22 May 16 at 14:30 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:37   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> I think it's a mile, at what depth of water i don't know. >> Assume the pinger produces a detectable sphere one mile in diameter. If the water is three miles deep you have to get your sensor two miles down to skim the top of the sphere, two and a half miles down to be well in it. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:40   Egyptair missing - sooty123

Don't know much about below the surface, is the signal dampened or amplified by water? Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:50   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> Don't know much about below the surface, is the signal dampened or amplified by water? >> Water conducts sound far better than air, but does attenuate the sound over distance. Also you have to pick out the sound you want from ambient, biological, geological, and traffic noise. These can dramatically reduce the detection range. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 22 May 16 at 14:52 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 14:55   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

>> Assume the pinger produces a detectable sphere one mile in diameter. If the water is >> three miles deep you have to get your sensor two miles down to skim the >> top of the sphere, two and a half miles down to be well in it. Correction - It is a mile radius. Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 22 May 16 at 18:49 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 15:13   Egyptair missing - rtj70

>> .********* I wouldn't say its worth nothing. From this they have a rough idea where it went down. They also know it dropped over 20,000 feet before any positional information ended. The search area will be large but nothing like that for the missing Malaysian flight where they guessed where it must have been. I would think they'll have to get the right equipment/ships to the location to find the flight recorders. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 22 May 16 15:53   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

I agree, a rough area of search is helpful, but it is still a long process even after you get the appropriate resourses to the area and the Med is small as oceans go. You still have to get very close to find anything though. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 21:10   Egyptair missing - sooty123

The technology we are using nowadays is so 1940s. >> Really, try a 1940s flight around the world compared to now. ;-) Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 21 May 16 at 21:10 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 21 May 16 22:25   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

Black box update. www.foxnews.com/world/2016/05/21/sensors-indicated-smoke-in-front-egyptair-flight-before-crash-reports-say.html Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 1 Jun 16 15:23   Egyptair missing - CGNorwich

French have picked up signal from flight recorder. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36427053 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 10:37   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

The current thread on Pprune has explored a multitude of options (both hitech and lotech!) for the location of aircraft missing but as yet not found. One of the simplest 'outside the box solutions' so far is the addition of dye (fluorescent?) to the fuel. As I am not a poster on that site - perhaps whoever copied my previous comments made here could post the questions/reservations shown below. Do aircraft still jettison fuel when over land - presumably to meet landing weight criteria?- in order to make an earlier than scheduled landing? Just imagine the effect of a highly concentrated fluorescent long lasting dye hitting a wide area of 'airing washing' in back gardens! Or staining the carefully manicured lawns of Wimbledon, Lords or Hurlingham:) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 14:15   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

Submarines have bright green emergency fluorescein dye markers, they are also used to indicate their position during exercises, the surface navy would never find them otherwise. Submarines don't fly well so ruining someone's garden or games field is not a problem. Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 3 Jun 16 at 14:18 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 14:26   Egyptair missing - Old Navy

Missed the edit- It is possible to have a water soluble release for dye. It would need to be fitted somewhere dry unless the aircraft was immersed. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 22:47   Egyptair missing - rtj70

>> It is possible to have a water soluble release for dye. It would need to be fitted somewhere dry >> unless the aircraft was immersed. An aircraft probably doesn't need anything to identify a crash site on land. But at sea it would be useful. So a water soluble dye might be very useful. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 14:24   Egyptair missing - No FM2R

>> perhaps whoever copied my previous comments made her Somebody copied your comments? Did they give you credit or claim them as their own? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 17:40   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

No FM2R see my post of 19/5.... "Who is Beamender99 who copied and pasted above to pprune? Complete with spelling mistakes. You might give credit to this Forum - you never know we may end up with some new members! Is it Zero - lurking? " Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 14:27   Egyptair missing - CGNorwich

Some but not all aircraft have the ability to dump fuel. The intention is, as you say, to save weight on landing and thereby incurring possible damage to the aircraft due to it exceeding its recommended landing weight. I think that proviing the full is dumped at a reasonable altitude it would evaporate long before it reached the ground. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 3 Jun 16 at 14:29 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 17:38   Egyptair missing - sherlock47

>>> think that proviing the full is dumped at a reasonable altitude it would evaporate long before it reached the ground.<<< But surely the dye would remain as a sediment? or not? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 17:50   Egyptair missing - Armel Coussine

Aviation fuel is dangerous stuff. In the rain past Orly airport* it makes a very slippery amalgam with the rainwater, cars can get dangerously out of shape even on a straight bit of dual carriageway (I managed it anyway, and it was hairy, what you cats call brown trouser). *There's a takeoff path that passes across the autoroute. Big jets taking off under full throttle throw out a lot of unburnt fuel which drifts down to the road. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 3 Jun 16 at 17:54 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 3 Jun 16 18:36   Egyptair missing - sooty123

> >> But surely the dye would remain as a sediment? or not? >> Dumped at altitude though it would be diluted as to be useless. The dye itself might well affect how it burns inside the engine or when it's used as a coolant. Or it may affect other components it comes into contactb with. That's before you think how much use it would be. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 15 Jun 16 22:26   Egyptair found. - henry k

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36543969 Wreckage of the EgyptAir flight that went missing over the Mediterranean last month has been found, Egyptian investigators say. A statement said "several main locations of the wreckage" had been identified. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 8 Jul 18 10:02   Egyptair Crash Report - Bromptonaut

The French accident investigation service have issued a press release concerning this accident: www.bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/BEA_-_Press_Release_060718_18H15.pdf Fire on board, cause unknown. Egyptians claim evidence of a bomb so transfer case to domestic criminal inquiry. Result is that a fire on board one of the most numerous airframes in worldwide service has not been traced back and possibility of mechanical/electrical failure or vulnerability to fire from a runaway LiOn battery eliminated. Don't think I'll fly Egyptair any time soon... Reply to this message | Report message