This week's radio performance showed he was short of facts. Now he shows himself short of political judgment - and taste - as well.
EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208
Priceless. Thanks, Boris.
But now we see Nige is on board and wants him for PM. So that's all right.
(Can't scowly myself to save Roger, Skip and Westpig the trouble, but the button's down there, chaps.)
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I think he has the balls to say what a lot of people are thining. There is nothing like the truth to wind up the PC brigade.
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Ahh good old Godwin's law... usually restricted to forums though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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So you're saying 'EU is like Hitler' is what the whole Out campaign really thinks? This is better than I thought.
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Not specifically Hitler, he was just the most recent attempt to unite Europe by force. This is the political class attempt, same idea, different approach.
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Full item here:
tinyurl.com/jldfluc (telegraph on line).
Not only invoking Hitler but also making clear that he believes Germany at forefront of domination.
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>> he believes Germany at forefront of domination.
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And you don't ?
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>> And you don't ?
A country of 80 million with productive and successful economy is obviously the big beast in the pack.
Boris's stuff about conspiracy against Italy and Greece and the dog whistle about Germany pursuing it's WW2 aim of 'ruling' Europe by other means is a different question.
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Hitler seems a good inspirational comparative source for people from all points on the political spectrum, left and right. Also, by stretching a point and conflating nazism with facism, he becomes a handy though mindless weapon for pushing a range of current PC agendas.
"It mustn't happen here" seems so useful a mantra one wonders how people would have argued these points if Hitler had never happened.
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Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. ... though the world has stood up and stopped the b******, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. - Brecht
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>> This week's radio performance showed he was short of facts. Now he shows himself short
>> of political judgment - and taste - as well.
>> EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208
>>
>> Priceless. Thanks, Boris.
>>
I thought that was pretty obviously aimed at Cameron's utterly ludricrous suggestion that we will have another war if Britain leaves the EU.
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>> I thought that was pretty obviously aimed at Cameron's utterly ludricrous suggestion that we will
>> have another war if Britain leaves the EU.
What he actually said was rather diferent.
His theme was that the EU has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. He illustrated that with reference to the Balkans as well as to the conflicts in the first half of the 20th century and before. He further emphasised the role of the EU in managing the migrant crisis and ISIS (though he called it Daesh) and other threats to our collective security.
Exit, with possibility also welcomed by some Brexiters that UK might trigger breakup of the whole edifice, puts all that at risk.
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-the-uks-strength-and-security-in-the-eu-9-may-2016
The Brexit = WW3 interpretation was the spin put on it by the Outers and their friends in the media.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 15 May 16 at 10:27
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Come off it Bromp. I said suggestion, and it was an unmistakeable one.
"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly-tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.
"Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt?
"Is that a risk worth taking?
"I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."
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Gordon Brown has been on the Remain circuit, albeit partly promotong his book on the subject.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/battle-brexit-gordon-brown-boris-johnson
Brown v Boris would be a debate worth watching though I suspect the latter would wriggle out of any offer.
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>>>"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly-tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament
>> to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.
>>
They mostly derive from WW1. Does anyone seriously think that those deaths were the best way of securing a peace and order that lasted a mere 20 years?
One could perhaps make a better case for arguing that it was the serried rows of Soviet graves in 1945 that resulted in the global stalemate that has secured a more lasting peace since then, and has through common cause as expressed through NATO aligned the western countries of Europe so securely.
It is the big European idea to push eastwards that is now endangering stability in Europe.
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The peace didn't last twenty years Cliff. WW2 was a continuation of WW1. What drove Germany to war in 1938-9 was the fact that the Governments of the Western allies mismanaged the peace. In particular a vengeful France and the rising star of US imperialism compounded by their isolation in the 30s.....The Americans fired the first shots of WW2 in 1917. God's sake the Americans even stripped the French of their vineyards in 1919.....!!!
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No one should mention the gibbering lunatic just as a reference to fascism. Any mention of Hitler should be specific to the man himself. Otherwise it just upsets people for no good reason.
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That gibbering lunatic ended up with a lot of followers A.C.It is surprising how het volk easily follow leaders who say what they want to hear.That is not only Germany.Geert Wilders in Holland and Farage can't go wrong in the UK by some people.
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>> not only Germany.Geert Wilders in Holland and Farage can't go wrong in the UK by some people.
Yes Dutchman, people are strangely dumb and nasty sometimes, and they have very short memories.
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>>That gibbering lunatic ended up with a lot of followers A.C.It is surprising how het volk easily follow leaders who say what they want to hear.
That gibbering idiot was actually voted in democratically by the volk - unlike the gibbering Brussels bureaucrats.
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Nice work, Dog! 'Brussels worse than Hitler', indeed. You've managed to out-Boris Boris.
On Cameron's supposed 'World War 3' speech, what he actually said was this. It's about the healing of Europe since WW2 and suggesting it would be unwise to even begin to reverse the process.
And in the post-war period [Churchill] argued passionately for Western Europe to come together, to promote free trade, and to build institutions which would endure so that our continent would never again see such bloodshed.
Isolationism has never served this country well. Whenever we turn our back on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it.
We have always had to go back in, and always at a much higher cost.
The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly-tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price that this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.
Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
I would never be so rash as to make that assumption.
It’s barely been 20 years since war in the Balkans and genocide on our continent in Srebrenica. In the last few years, we have seen tanks rolling into Georgia and Ukraine. And of this I am completely sure.
The European Union has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries.
And that requires British leadership, and for Britain to remain a member. The truth is this: what happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain.
That was true in 1914, in 1940 and in 1989. Or, you could add 1588, 1704 and 1815. And it is just as true in 2016.
Either we influence Europe, or it influences us.
And if things go wrong in Europe, let’s not pretend we can be immune from the consequences.
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>> Priceless. Thanks, Boris.
I was under the impression he is a particularly learned man, especially when it comes to history....
.... and what he has said is factually correct.
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>> I was under the impression he is a particularly learned man, especially when it comes
>> to history....
He reportedly excelled in Classics at school and his Oxford Degree is in that subject. While he's certainly a published historian he's very much at the popular rather than academic end of the spectrum. He has repeatedly shown what is, even by politician's standards, a highly selective choice of facts and at times a careless relationship with the truth.
>> .... and what he has said is factually correct.
In he sense that Italy's car industry is not what it was and Greece is an almighty economic mess then he may be. His interpretation of a German conspiracy is just that, interpretation.
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Bromp and WdB protest altogether too much.
Cameron knew very well what he was suggesting, or why use the words?
"Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries."
I can imagine the discussion when that was written - "of course we can't actually say that leaving will cause a war, but we can scare people with the idea".
If you're looking for straw men and false dichotomies Bromp then look here. It is not necessary to reject common purpose, or to have a war if we do.
On the other hand, disagreements between countries within the EU seem only to increase.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 15 May 16 at 15:35
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Not at all, Manatee. I've said this at least twice here before: shared values and prosperity have taken Europe a long way from the fractious, warlike mess it was for centuries before 1945. Some Outers have suggested that they would like to see the UK's exit trigger the unravelling of the whole structure of the EU. My point - and Cameron's - is that they should be careful what they wish for; the first step back towards the way Europe used to be is a highly dangerous one. Of course no-one is suggesting it will lead straight to war, but even if it might take 50 years it's not a road we should risk starting along.
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>> Not at all, Manatee. I've said this at least twice here before: shared values and
>> prosperity have taken Europe a long way from the fractious, warlike mess it was for
>> centuries before 1945.
I wouldn't argue with that but was it anything to do with the EEC/EU? The Marshall Plan and the Cold War must have been significant factors. And the EU does not seem to be holding countries together at the moment, rather the opposite.
I shall probably vote remain, but that is more to do with minimising boat rocking in the short term than any faith in it as an institution. Unless the eurozone problem is resolved with a soft landing, it will end in a crisis and take confidence in the EU with it.
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>> I wouldn't argue with that but was it anything to do with the EEC/EU? The
>> Marshall Plan and the Cold War must have been significant factors.
My point precisely.
There's a coincidence of prosperity and unity of purpose in Europe, and there's the EU, but it doesn't follow that the latter created the former.
You could even argue that the former created the atmosphere in which ambitious eurocrats could look eagerly around for more things to interfere in. They just can't bear to say "You've got peace and free trade and democratic freedom, just get on with enjoying it and we'll bow out now"
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We don't need to prove causation, merely to understand the strong association, and the EU's role in ensuring that no one country's interest (no, Germanophobes, not even that one) trumps all the others. The Marshall Plan certainly helped with the physical and economic regeneration of Western Europe but we've come way beyond that now and have much more to protect.
That framework helps to protect Europe against some of its own nastier elements; there are parties in France, Austria and elsewhere every bit as unsavoury as what Ukip tries to conceal but with competent leaders and organizers. Some of those could knock a country badly off course, and the buffering effect of EU membership keeps that from happening.
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Looking at Boris with his blond hair he would have fitted in ok with the Hitler Youth.
Hitler liked the blond hair blue eyes Germanic look.>:)
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>> Looking at Boris with his blond hair he would have fitted in ok with the Hitler Youth.
Although Boris is of Turkish antecedents as well as English ones.
Had a vivid dream the other night featuring a boy and girl, each with well-coiffed long golden hair, very bright gold. As nearly always in dreams nothing actually happened, but those sort of non angeli sed angli (or was it the other way round?) totemic figures have remained vivid for several days now.
I myself am dark, saturnine and usually scowling.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 15 May 16 at 16:46
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>> In he sense that Italy's car industry is not what it was and Greece is
>> an almighty economic mess then he may be. His interpretation of a German conspiracy is
>> just that, interpretation.
>>
Funnily enough I wasn't talking about the German conspiracy side of things, I'm not one for conspiracies... I was more thinking the wish for the European State.
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What Boris said was essentially true. The aim of the EU is a European Federal state. Invoking the name of Hitler was always going to have people frothing at the mouth, but the goal is the same if the method is rather different.
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>> What Boris said was essentially true. The aim of the EU is a European Federal
>> state. Invoking the name of Hitler was always going to have people frothing at the
>> mouth, but the goal is the same if the method is rather different.
No Caesar/Napoleon/Hitler were bent on domination. Completely different to a community of democratic nations agreeing to pool some aspects of sovereignty for the common good.
The simple fact that we're having a referendum shows Boris's analogy for the nonsense it is.
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>> >>
>> No Caesar/Napoleon/Hitler were bent on domination. Completely different to a community of democratic nations agreeing to pool some aspects of sovereignty for the common good.
>>
>> >>
Or a community of democratic nations having their individual democracies steadily eroded by a lumbering bureaucratic monolith controlled by unelected and unaccountable quangos and committees.
Depends how you look at it I suppose.
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We were fooled in the first place about Europe, the claim being that it was going to be a giant co-operative. Nothing was further from the truth.
America got the better of Russia by economic means (i.e. Star Wars, space travel etc) during the Cold War and The EU seems bent on what seems a similar method for the UK and other countries.
But perhaps I'm being somewhat cynical.
Even so, I persoanlly think we are best out of the EU in view of our position as the fifth biggest economy in the world. I know quite a few businessmen and they state that although it would be easier to remain in the EU as far as dealing with member states is concerned, in the end it would basically come down to somewhat more paperwork than usual and that few, if any other countries, would turn down trade with us.
We would also be able to trade, as we have over many decades, with the rest of the world with far fewer hindrances or interference from Brussels.
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And let's not forget, when it comes to bloodshed and death, the EU were totally ineffective in trying to solve the crisis in the Balkans 20 years ago, right on their doorstep. We needed NATO and the US to intervene whilst the EU dithered.
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I'd be interested to know what 'hindrances from Brussels' prevent us from trading with other countries today.
As for the wars in Yugoslavia, they were essentially an external security matter, which is precisely what Nato is for. The EU may have failed to resolve the conflict by diplomatic means, but so did everyone else - hardly the first time that had happened in the Balkans. (We might even take the view that that lack of a common foreign policy indicates that the EU is not the 'superstate' its detractors claim.) Since then, however, EU membership has been the incentive for Slovenia and Croatia to improve their internal positions on human rights and freedom of trade, and Serbia and Montenegro are working towards membership now.
The Balkan region is more stable now than at any time since it had Tito to sit on the lid, and common interests as EU members and aspirants have played a positive role there.
Incidentally, I'm meeting one Balkan customer on Friday and working on a deal with another. Both would have been far harder to set up if the UK weren't a member of the EU.
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>> I'd be interested to know what 'hindrances from Brussels' prevent us from trading with other
>> countries today.
I believe trade deals are dealt with at a central level for those countries outside the eu. Some believe that we would be better off setting those deals up ourselves.
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America got the better of Russia by economic means (i.e. Star Wars, space travel etc)
Missed this earlier. Been smoking Roger's fruit cake?
}:---)
Probably the biggest driver towards the collapse of the Eastern Bloc was Germans and Poles seeing the greater freedom and prosperity their near-neighbours enjoyed and ceasing to believe what their masters in Moscow told them.
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>> Probably the biggest driver towards the collapse of the Eastern Bloc was Germans and Poles
>> seeing the greater freedom and prosperity their near-neighbours enjoyed and ceasing to believe what their
>> masters in Moscow told them.
>>
Surely most of the population of the Eastern bloc had been "disillusioned" with the Soviet Union from very shortly after their troops arrived. That's why they were kept from the West by walls, minefields and electrified fences.
What changed over the years was the Soviet Union's economic ability to maintain a vast military force necessary to suppress dissent and indeed the will to use it as had been done in 1956 Hungary or later in Czechoslovakia
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News Thump take on Boris:
(Gobs *ite with ambition for power abit like Hitler)
tinyurl.com/hqfpf7q
Tiny url because swear filter objected to word in direct link.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 16 May 16 at 10:29
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>> Tiny url because swear filter objected to word in direct link.
>>
...has somebody finally got round to filtering Boris out then?..... ;-)
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Boris's Hitler speech is as silly as Brompton says Cameron's WW3 speech was. (And TBH I haven't read that one.)
Both silly because neither said what the media reported. Boris did not compare Hitler and the EU. Just read the speech.
I write as a remainer. (probably)
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>> Both silly because neither said what the media reported
Misreporting by the media doesn't make the original speeches silly, does it Maps?
Anyway you're quite right about staying in, just as I am.
I don't really understand Boris Johnson's position on leaving the EU. I would have expected him to be a remainer. Perhaps he just has to distinguish himself from the PM and that's all there is to it. The voters will forget everything inside five minutes or so. He doesn't have to worry about those idiots.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 16 May 16 at 13:30
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Well isn't this interesting. I could have sworn that a few days ago I was roundly bashed up by Outie/Thatcherite types for bringing Hitler and his democratic election in to the debate vis a vis Thatcher's dictatoresque policies during the miners' strike, and now all of a sudden Hitler is a perfectly valid comparator for the EU, it's a perfectly valid point in the debate and it's simply telling the truth to say so, and Hitler's Nazi government was actually more democratic and valid than the EU.
Tut tut, fellas. Rolly-eye smilie.
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>> Well isn't this interesting. I could have sworn that a few days ago I was
>> roundly bashed up by Outie/Thatcherite types for bringing Hitler and his democratic election in
>> to the debate vis a vis Thatcher's dictatoresque policies during the miners' strike
>
Oi, I am not an "Outie" or a Thatcherite, despite thinking, both now and at the time, that she was doing many of the things that needed doing.
It was still wrong, just as Boris is wrong to bring Hitler anywhere near this or any other discussion/debate
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Boris goes Hitler! - Old Navy
