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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 17 May 16 at 01:29
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More grist for your mill fluffy.
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/01/leaked-ttip-documents-cast-doubt-on-eu-us-trade-deal
Unfortunately Cameron and Merkel both claim that they still want TTIP, but there are plenty in the EU who are opposed.
Boris might have a point about the EU being more divisive than harmonious; but I'll be more inclined to vote Remain if TTIP looks likely to founder.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 10 May 16 at 10:10
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>> Boris might have a point about the EU being more divisive than harmonious; but I'll
>> be more inclined to vote Remain if TTIP looks likely to founder.
There's a certain irony in somebody who, over the years, has generally posted anti EU views here relying on a French veto to protect them from something the UK government favours
:-P
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 10 May 16 at 10:10
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>>> Now please stop trying to twist my words.
>> You wrote:
>> "In all seriousness, this appears to be what has actually happened in North Wales, with >> them returning some UKIP assembly members.
>> Jesus wept".
> If you weren't' criticising some people's voting choices, what were you doing then?
Since when did criticising something imply a desire to prevent people from doing something? Of course people are allowed and should be allowed to vote for whoever the blooming 'ell they like. And I'm allowed to laugh at them and criticise them if they make idiotic choices in my opinion.
Is that so hard to understand? Now please stop trying to twist my words. Thanks.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 10 May 16 at 10:16
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>> Since when did criticising something imply a desire to prevent people from doing something? Of
>> course people are allowed and should be allowed to vote for whoever the blooming 'ell
>> they like. And I'm allowed to laugh at them and criticise them if they make
>> idiotic choices in my opinion.
Surely if you criticise someone as strongly as you did, when it comes to an act like voting... you imply that they ought to have done something else... or at the very least leave it open to someone else to infer that.
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That is rather an odd argument.
Surely you can support the fact that everyone has a right to vote but at the same time have a perfect right to express an opinion that you believe that those people who have voted for a particular party are idiots and have made a mistake in as strong terms as you wish.
Is that not known as freedom of speech?
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 10 May 16 at 18:25
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>> Is that not known as freedom of speech?
I agree.
Alanovic pointed out the 'idiots'... and I pointed out they were free to vote for whoever they wished.
So Alanovic exercised his freedom of speech in highlighting the UKIP voters... and I exercised mine in pointing out their opinions are no different to his.
I would imagine that there are plenty of people out there who would think Alanovic is an idiot for voting for whoever he votes for...and the same applies to me and my vote...and of course, yours.
Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 10 May 16 at 18:25
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Another day of chaos in the E.U Referendum debate.
When will the debate turn normal.
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>>When will the debate turn normal.
Bwahahahahahaaaaaaaaa......
Ahahahaaaaaa......
etc
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That is the very essence of debate - 2 sides spouting crap to support their side and denounce the opposing side - very much like a court case.
It has little to do with finding a reasoned and sensible outcome.
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At least one forum member is talking sense.
We have six weeks of this debate.
How depressing.
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What way do you think we should vote then Fluffy. You seem to be giving it a lot of thought.
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>> That is rather an odd argument.
>>
>> Surely you can support the fact that everyone has a right to vote but at
>> the same time have a perfect right to express an opinion that you believe that
>> those people who have voted for a particular party are idiots and have made a
>> mistake in as strong terms as you wish.
>>
>> Is that not known as freedom of speech?
>>
Thank you, CGN. When talking to Westpig I start to doubt my own sanity. Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not going clean out of my mind.
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>> Thank you, CGN. When talking to Westpig I start to doubt my own sanity. Thanks
>> for the reassurance that I'm not going clean out of my mind.
>>
For heaven's sake. You are so literal.
Oxford Dictionary: Allowed
Declare or decide that an event or activity is (legal or) acceptable..... my brackets.
Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 11 May 16 at 17:55
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And, again, of course the mooted activity is acceptable. I maintain, though, the right to say it's idiotic. However, I'd never suggest is isn't "allowed", which was your word - not mine.
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>> And, again, of course the mooted activity is acceptable. I maintain, though, the right to
>> say it's idiotic. However, I'd never suggest is isn't "allowed", which was your word -
>> not mine.
You knew what I meant though, didn't you.
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Evidently not.
Anyway, it's kebab day, and Eurovision weekend (can't wait, up the Malta).
Peace and love.
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>> Surely if you criticise someone as strongly as you did, when it comes to an
>> act like voting... you imply that they ought to have done something else...
Of course. However, that does not equate to my saying that people shouldn't be "allowed" (your word) to vote however they like. That's the difference, and I am at a loss as to how you're still trying to argue such an obvious point and can't accept the simplicity of what I'm saying.
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What a poorly written article. Any hack with a GCSE in physics could explain that the main objection to these plans - and the reason they won't be enacted - is that a kilogram of water will take the same amount of energy to raise to boiling point regardless of whether the energy is supplied at a rate of 2kW or 3kW. If anything, the 3kW kettle will waste a little less because it will have less time to lose heat to the environment.
Toast is much the same: bread will brown when it's received the necessary amount of heat, regardless of the rate. Although it makes a change to read about a Kipper complaining something in his life is too white and not brown enough.
File this one with the straight cucumber stories.
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"File this one with the straight cucumber stories."
Did they manage to restrict the power of vacuum cleaners, or was that a myth as well?
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Different question: you can design a vacuum cleaner - as you can a car - to do more with less, so brute force is an inappropriate and inefficient solution.
Helpful consumer - not political - advice here:
www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-appliances/vacuum-cleaners/1401100/dont-be-a-sucker-eu-vacuum-cleaner-ruling-explained
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"so brute force is an inappropriate and inefficient solution. "
The same general principle applies to vacuum cleaners as applies to centre-forwards i.e. 'A good big 'un is better than a good little 'un'.
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>> Did they manage to restrict the power of vacuum cleaners,
Yes
>> or was that a myth
>> as well?
No
There is an efficiency case with vacs as WdB says but it is still a restriction on effectiveness. An efficient 2000W machine would not be allowed under the regulation so it is a blunt instrument.
Perhaps 'commercial use' machines escape the regs so it might be possible to buy one of those.
The power of domestic kettles may be restricted in future, we don't know. There is actually a case for that, which is that the combined effect of replacing everybody's kettles with 700W jobs would be to reduce peak loads when the 10 o'clock news comes on, and therefore the necessary generating capacity by 3/16 of a power station.
The 20,000 EU bureaucrats who are responsible for the attack on traditional British 3 horsepower vacs didn't try to set an absolute efficiency limit instead so will they try it with hairdryers? I doubt it, so prepare for a power restriction. This will lead to thousands of people with bouffant coiffures setting fire to their hair after trying to defeat the regulations by using heat guns from Screwfix.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 11 May 16 at 09:37
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This chatter has reminded me that at this time of year I usually break out the travel kettle for use at home, as when my panels are generating well I can boil it up for free, unlike the high power jobby which even when I am at max PV output will take a few watts from the grid.
One side effect of solar panels is a greater awareness of ways to save energy. That example is a bit extreme but our usage has gone down over well 30% since getting the panels - and that's not just down to making use of the energy I generate.
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Toast is much the same: bread will brown when it's received the necessary amount of heat, regardless of the rate.
Actually, a higher powered toaster could be argued to make nicer toast. Because, if you brown the outside of the bread faster, there is more moisture surviving in the inside of the slice of bread. Admittedly, not much moisture survives, but does make a difference.
Also, like the kettle, make toast slower with a lesser powered element, you use more - not less energy.
Years ago, there was a report produced in the EU as the first step to producing a directive on the subject of radio transmitter powers. At the time, the electromagnetic field intensity proposed would have banned mobile phones, the use of police radios if anyone was in sight, and the Crystal Palace TV transmitter would have been illegal even 20 miles away. The report was discarded thankfully, I was on one of the committees that objected, we never had to mention our interest as TV transmitters, Police radios and mobile phones were a big enough issue on their own.
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>> Toast is much the same: bread will brown when it's received the necessary amount of
>> heat, regardless of the rate.
>>
>> Actually, a higher powered toaster could be argued to make nicer toast. Because, if you
>> brown the outside of the bread faster, there is more moisture surviving in the inside
>> of the slice of bread. Admittedly, not much moisture survives, but does make a difference.
>>
>>
>>
Quite true, which is why toast in a decent café on their high powered machine tastes so much better than it does out of the ten quid job you got in Argos.
On the subject of responsible power usage in domestic equipment, we do not need the EU for that. We have elections every five years and there is nothing to stop the politicians who claim we need the EU to protect us from our vices to introduce similar legislation themselves.
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"Actually, a higher powered toaster could be argued to make nicer toast."
The sad thing is that there won't be a choice. It's the same with lightbulbs - it has been assumed that everyone is uneducated and incapable of thinking for themselves.
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Interesting debate about the European Union on Radio 5 Dead this morning. Worth listening to IMO.
Starts about 6 mins in: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b079mg4r#play
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>> Interesting debate about the European Union on Radio 5 Dead this morning. Worth listening to
>> IMO.
>>
>> Starts about 6 mins in: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b079mg4r#play
>>
Does "worth listening to" translate in to English as "supports my preconceived ideas?"
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Hard to imagine any radio phone-in being worth listening to.
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... and if it did you wouldn't listen because it doesn't support yours? :-) (@ Al)
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 11 May 16 at 11:51
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If it's a debate it doesn't support anyone's point of view. But if it's just the usual collected rantings of van drivers, it's not a debate.
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>> rantings of van drivers<<
Those van drivers have one vote each, just like you and at the moment have some very strong views on which way that vote will go.
Pat
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So what? There's plenty of good information out there. Why would I bother listening to the ignorant and inarticulate?
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"Why would I bother listening to the ignorant and inarticulate?"
Spoken with true righteousness. Let me guess ............. The Grauniad!
;-)
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As you well know, the point I'm making is these 'rantings' have an equal vote with your logical and balanced rantings when it comes to the vote!
On the day whether the vote comes from the 'inarticulate' or the 'educated' won't matter a jot.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 11 May 16 at 13:56
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And I understood you the first time you said that. My disagreement is with Smokie's idea that it's worth listening to some phone-in. If I want to hear what van drivers think I'll drive home with the windows open.
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>>If I want to hear what van drivers think I'll drive home with the windows open<<
As put down's go, you'll have to do better than that if you're taking on white van man:)
Pat
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I had an encounter with red van man this morning. Waiting to turn right out of my children's school car park on to a busy A road in the rush hour. Parents turning right in to the car park often stop to allow cars like me to pull out, as gaps are hard to come by. I thought I saw one such driver about to extend this courtesy to me, and started to edge out, when they changed their mind and stopped across my bows. I had poked a bumper in to the road before stopping, and this left enough space for traffic passing from my right to get through. However, red van man came along and he obviously wanted more room, even though he didn't need it. He stopped right in front of me and started shouting and waving his fists. I raised my hand in (unnecessary) apology, but the spittle-flecked rant continued, whilst others waited behind him. Then off he went, managing not to hit anyone as he had plenty of room.
I'm starting to think people around here are just waiting for opportunities to vent their anger on someone, even when it's not warranted.
It really is quite an exercise in one's capacity for tolerance to drive in the rush hour in these parts.
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"I had an encounter with red van man this morning."
You seem to encounter a lot of bad drivers, Alano. Or is it that the roads are becoming rather over-crowded? Maybe the country is becoming overcrowded? Mmm - I wonder why that is?
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The South East's roads are getting overcrowded, because that's where the jobs are, disproportionately to the rest of the country.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Last time I looked, the town with the most EU migrants, Boston, isn't in the South East.
But you don't want to get it, that's fine. I know where you want to stand. At Dover with a trowel in your hand building big wall, as if that's the answer to everything.
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>> At Dover with a trowel in your hand building big wall, as if that's
>> the answer to everything.
>>
No, the real answer is to take a leaf out of Trump's book and get the French to pay for building a big wall :-)
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"But you don't want to get it, "
Maybe these good folks are driving around your local roads just to annoy you?
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/11/the-missing-million-are-we-undercounting-britains-immigrants/
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Yeah. I'm sure Victor Spirescu can stretch to a 64 plate Lexus SUV.
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"Victor Spirescu can stretch to a 64 plate Lexus SUV."
Oh, right - I though Victor drove a red van; maybe the Lexus is his second car?
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How would I have changed my mind about the EU if I hadn't listened to both sides, smokie?
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Well Gordon Brown reckons that we should stay. That's just given a massive boost to the leave campaign !
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Might have a mitigating effect on Boris Johnson's yeah-but-no-but-yeah-but-temerarious-but car crash on Today this morning. Otherwise it's just Experienced Politician with In-Depth Knowledge Recommends Staying. Hmmm.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Wed 11 May 16 at 14:23
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>> Might have a mitigating effect on Boris Johnson's yeah-but-no-but-yeah-but-temerarious-but car crash on Today this morning.
Not just me shaking my head at BoJo's ranting about the 'so called single market' then? I'm sure there are some possible reasons why we might be better off out (though I doubt they're clinching) but just going on about the 'foreign interference' but doesn't cut it.
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>> Otherwise it's just Experienced Politician with In-Depth Knowledge Recommends Staying. Hmmm.
>>
I apologise I had forgotten what a fantastic job GB did as chancellor and prime minister - not !
Last edited by: Skip on Wed 11 May 16 at 17:21
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No doubt you know better, Skip.
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I didn't actually say it was worth listening to.
I responded to Al's implication that Dog enjoyed it because it aligned with his own opinion.
Due to the way the software works, and/or my slowness of thought/typing, it came out under your post, which is why I quickly edited it to say it was @ Al.
And while I'm here - again @ Al - my post ended with a smiley. I don't remember which way you are voting or that you'd changed your mind, that wasn't relevant to the only-slightly serious point I was meaning to make.
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Sorry Smokie, my mistake. It was the Hound, not you that brought it up.
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Tricky, this internet forum game, isn't it? Your post with the @Al in it came across as a sarcastic attempt to accuse me of the same failing I was aiming at Dog. Evidently not meant that way.
Peace and love.
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>>Peace and love<<
Said by the ageing hippy masquerading as Alanovic;)
Pat
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>>Said by the ageing hippy masquerading as Alanovic
Um, said by Alanovic masquerading as an ageing hippy.
;-)
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That's more like it really, Gospodin Sobaka. I used to hang out with some hippy types when I was in the university arts faculty, but I was always more of a metaller/real ale tw@ in my youth.
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>>Gospodin Sobaka
Like it :)
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Mmmm, that brings back a memory of my misspent youth!
I was once thoroughly checked over by a plod on a motorbike at the railway crossing gates in the middle of Oakham.
My crime? I had ridden up the ouside of the queue on an Aerial Leader wearing a bright yellow short kaftan with a leather jacket over it with a bell on the zip. Everything was flying open in the warm breeze of a summer evening and of course, he had to try and burst my bubble.
Bike ok
Docs ok
....so I got a lecture on 'wearing suitable attire' to ride a motorbike and made to go back to the back of the queue!
Once a rebel, always....:)
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 11 May 16 at 15:54
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>>Once a rebel, always....:)
Tell me about it!! .. Rebel without a pause :o)
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Or maybe Rebel without Paws.
8o)
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Rebel is a good name for a Dog - I've renamed my Beauceron, Gnasher, for a good reason!
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Major US banks have bankrolled the campaign to keep Britain within the European Union to the tune of £1.5 million, prompting critics to label the referendum a “David vs Goliath†battle.
Major banking firms Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Citibank have between them handed £1.5 million over to the official Remain campaign, Britain Stronger In Europe (BSE), according to official figures published yesterday.
The banks were at the heart of the 2008 global credit crunch which saw countless people worldwide lose their life savings, their pension pots and even their homes, between them having to pay nearly $30 billion in fines to the US government for mis-selling mortgages and other failings.
HE WHO PAYS THE PIPER..........................................................
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Multinational businesses that profit from UK's position as Europe's banking capital avour IN? Ooodathortit?
Seriously, £1.5 million split four ways between billion dollar companies is pretty small beer.
My irony meter is bent against it's stop when 'righty-tighties' are fulminating about the influence of big business.
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Citizens Advice spent a million quid on re-branding Roger. "Bankrolling" is a bit of an exaggeration...
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...what did they re-brand Roger as....?
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That would cost quite a lot more..
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This is what the in crowd will most certainly get more of if we stay in the European Union, and one-of the reasons why I will be voting OUT
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7146885/Car-park-migrant-camp-hidden-in-heart-of-London.html
Last edited by: Dog on Fri 13 May 16 at 08:32
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More what, car parks in London?
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>> This is what the in crowd will most certainly get more of if we stay
>> in the European Union, and one-of the reasons why I will be voting OUT
I think there'd still be that sort of thin if we'd never joined the 'free movement' thing. The issue is difficulty finding/cost of keeping a roof over one's head. Lincoln's Inn Fields was a 'squatter camp' in the early nineties.
Another question is are these people Roma as well as Romanian? There's a long history of discrimination/exclusion against Roma people across Central Europe forcing them into margins of society. Papers like the Sun are happy to conflate Roma & Romanian in order to promote sales of their grubby sheet.
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I rarely if ever read the Sun, it's just that I picked the story up via a national radio program earlier this morning.
I know that area well as it's within walking distance of where I used to live in a previous life.
Sure, 'that sort' of thing has always gone on, but there is more of it these days thanks to the EU, and there will be more to come unless we leave the EU - especially with more and more poorer countries looking to sign up for a slice of the £10billion which we hand over the EU every year.
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>> more and more poorer countries looking to sign up
>> for a slice of the £10billion which we hand over the EU every year.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
The whole point of the EU is to distribute a bit of bunce around the continent in order to level up standards and hopefully ensure a bit of peace and prosperity for everyone, in contrast with the previous 2000 years of self-interest and conflict.
I suppose you'll just never get it.
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Dog did get it when I expressed it that way the other week. Trouble is, when Cameron makes quite a temperate speech about shared prosperity being better for long-term security he gets caricatured by the Brexiters as saying exit will cause World War 3. Cause, no, but undo one of the safety catches preventing is heading that way again? I think so.
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>> I suppose you'll just never get it.
That's one way of looking at it. The other is that well run countries like GB are having to hand over cash to countries like Greece who will then piddle it up the wall by deciding to retire on nearly full salary when they are barely middle aged.
I suppose you'll never get that bit.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 13 May 16 at 12:43
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>> I suppose you'll never get that bit.
>>
I would think those in favour of the eu would consider it 'acceptable leakage' in the grand scheme of things.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 13 May 16 at 12:43
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>> I suppose you'll never get that bit.
>>
Nice work if you can get it, ROR. Plenty of piddling of walls being done internally also, in our greedy, prestige and power fuelled, 'well-run' UK Establishment. It's just that the money goes to those who already have plenty, so it's not so visible. It's just in Panama rather than in the accounts of retired, lowly functionaries and workers, in a higher quantity of far smaller slices.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 13 May 16 at 12:44
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>>I suppose you'll just never get it.
What I do get is the fact that Germany who appear to run the show, do very well out of the EU and the single currency thank you very much, whereas many other EU members just seem to get more and more austerity, leading to social unrest in those countries.
I also see 2 - 3 week waiting times to see a GP, due in part to the mass immigration to this country from the EU.
I also see underfunding of the NHS and feel sure that the odd £10billion could buy a few swabs at the very least.
Another thing I see is the sun (not that one) shining, and two dogs chomping at the bite bit.
Tootle pip!
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Full Fact puts the UK's net contribution at £8.5bn - rather less than half the Outies' headline figure. The NHS has an annual budget of about £120bn, but of course most of any 'saving' we could make in EU contributions would be eaten up in trying to create home-made solutions to problems currently handled at EU level long before it could be spent on the NHS.
When I make one of my occasional visits to my GP, the others in the waiting room are not generally EU immigrants but British people of retirement age. GPs themselves say that elderly patients with multiple problems are the greatest load on their practices.
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Then, quite obviously, Logan's Run is the answer.
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>> Then, quite obviously, Logan's Run is the answer.
>>
Soylent Green, more like
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>>The NHS has an annual budget of about £120bn
Christ that's a lot of money - pity they don't spend more of it on NHS dentistry which has been shockingly underfunded for the last 10 years.
I am in favour of the European Union, and think it's a great idea - for Europe, which is why the project was first proposed after Europe tore itself apart during WW2. But I sincerely believe that Great Britain would be better served being outside of the proposed European superstate - others countries can manage to scape by, so why can't the 5th largest economy in the world have a go.
Sure, some more foreigners ;) one from France, and one from Cananda, have stated Brexit 'could' lead to a technical recession - bring it on then, we'll get over it sooner or later, and then The World will be our oyster.
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Fortunately, there are more GP centres dotted around than there are hospitals, so my GP's is currently not too badly utilised by immigrants.
However, when I make one of my occasional visits to my local hospital(s), the others in the waiting rooms or on the maternity wards ARE generally immigrants, but not from the EU.
Legacylad will know what I mean.
"Coming to a town near you", eventually. And probably sooner than one might think.
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Our surgery has become busier because we are far less efficient at killing off oldies than we used to be.
Immigrants (esp. Eastern Europeans) tend to be in the healthy but fertile group, so GP surgeries don't see so many, but maternity units do.
They are still in the minority so to say "ARE generally" is a tad OTT.
My experience of the younger people in acute/emergency hospitals is a large proportion are social class 4/5 with social/substance problems, independent of immigration status, but that's always been the case.
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Strange thing is, there aren't many immigrants in Cornwall, except for the likes of me but, I hear through the grape vine that the waiting time to see a GP is no better than many other areas of the UK. So 'the problem' clearly must be down to a lack of GP's in this neck-of-the-woods.
The last time I visited a GP was back in 1992 when I could see my GP, a Dr Ahmad, in a day or two. I have read reports in the local rag of peops not bothering to make an appointment to see their GP due to the faffing about with the phone system in place, or the amount of time they'd have to wait to actually see said dealer in all things pharmaceutical. Not An ideal state of affairs me thinks.
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No, but it should be self-limiting (like, ironically, many of the ailments we do bother our GPs with) as the ones who give up without making an appointment die of Patagonian farting fever or scurvy and so remove themselves from the register.
Of course, whether that's enough to counteract the pushy hypochondriacs, or the pensioner who calls his £85,000 a year GP about his blocked sink because his £25,000 a year social worker was axed in the pursuit of 'efficiency' is another matter.
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>> social class 4/5 with social/substance problems, independent of immigration status, but that's always been the
'social class 4/5' must mean what we used to call DE in market research in the sixties.
The system went A, B, C1, C2, D and E. It was supposed to be based on income but there were other factors. C1 and C2 greatly outnumbered the other classes.
When asked, many, perhaps a majority, are inclined to promote themselves socially. There's no malice in it, it's usually quite innocent as most people are when you get down to it.
(I hope that isn't just tedious faffing...)
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You are what you are.The class system is strange anyway I never understood I know my place system.Always have been a bit of a rebel often to my cost.>:)
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I find it sad that DCameron won't have a debate with a member of his own political party who is pro Brexit.
Cowardly to say the least
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>> I find it sad that DCameron won't have a debate with a member of his own political party who is pro Brexit.
He's party leader, he can just tell them to shut up. Discipline it's called.
>> Cowardly to say the least
Tsk... cowardice is one of the lesser political vices.
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At least our PM does not take $1 B bribes from the Saudis..tinyurl.com/h4lcgjk
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When's this bretbort film coming out on general release, how are ticket sales going?
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>> When's this bretbort film coming out on general release, how are ticket sales going?
>>
Free. Paid for privately.
Unlike this one, paid by your taxes.
order-order.com/2016/05/16/eus-taxpayer-funded-referendum-intervention/
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>>"Coming to a town near you", eventually. And probably sooner than one might think.
Coming to a bar near you? www.rt.com/news/342718-copenhagen-bars-sharia-patrols/
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>>The system went A, B, C1, C2, D and E. It was supposed to be based on income but there were other factors.
They are called socioeconomic grades because they are based on work category as well as income. There is a broad division between white collar workers A, B, C1 and blue collar workers C2, D, E. There must be a great many skilled C2 workers earning more than those ion C1.
The same six-way distinction is used in the USA but with different labels. Our own government uses it sometimes instead of the more complicated one used for the Census.
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Manatee
