Non-motoring > Talking about trains and Silver Fox	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Vicar of Bray	Replies: 39

Tue 2 Mar 10 04:46   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Vicar of Bray

Don`t you think these magnificent machines are the 1930`s personified? I used to watch them as a kid, on the LNER line that runs down to London. I was wondering what sort of job they would do now if the remaining engines were restored and used on the same run. Let`s imagine that (for the sake of it) that electrical and diesel power is not available and Yorkshire, built on coa,l runs the engines out of York Railway Museum for main line use. I`m making the case for not much progress in 80 yrs on (British) railway speeds when looking at the A4 Pacifics`. What do you think? www.lner.info/locos/A/a4.shtml Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 08:00   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

A bit OT but I think someone posted this on the BR a while back - it tells you where all the steam trains are going to be for the coming week, and you can personalise it to only tell you about your 'favourite' stations: www.beholder.co.uk/steam/ Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 09:29   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - kb

Not seen that site before. Not a steam buff but do enjoy seeing steam passing by Starcross Teignmouth etc. Usually miss it, so thanks. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 08:19   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - BiggerBadderDave

Streamlined locos are hideous. I like to see brass, pipes, knobs, bells, whistles, hatches, flanges, valves, wheels and smokestacks on my steam engines. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 09:47   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

>> Streamlined locos are hideous. I like to see brass pipes knobs bells whistles hatches flanges >> valves wheels and smokestacks on my steam engines. >> sounds like a 'big boy' :- tinyurl.com/yhp4s3f Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 17:23   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

If its got a "cow catcher" on front, BBD will like it. Good to see you made it over the dark side dave. bigger and badder. Last edited by: Zero on Tue 2 Mar 10 at 17:25 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 09:30   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

I suppose the nearest benchmark you could use would be the recently built A1 pacific 'Tornado' which I would think is pretty similar in tractive effort and maximum drawbar horsepower to a Gresley A4. In terms of running to a schedule on today's railway infrastructure the biggest challenge would probably be braking efficiency rather than maximum speed. Plus the current ECML electrics are probably something like double the horsepower so can accelerate much more quickly than an A4 I would think. Plus the A4s did tend to break if you did over a ton in then. Agree that on the face of it many of today's long distance schedules aren't that much feaster than the 'streaks' managed, but the loads are much heavier today and there are often more intermediate stops. Thanks for the link above, not seen that before, I usually use:- www.uksteam.info/tours/trs10.htm Last edited by: spamcan61 on Tue 2 Mar 10 at 09:31 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 2 Mar 10 10:02   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> Thanks for the link above not seen that before I usually use:- >> >> www.uksteam.info/tours/trs10.htm From the blurb on the beholder site: "It's regenerated automatically every night using the latest information from UK steam info." So same info, just different presentation. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:17   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Britains most powerful express locomotives were Sir William Stanier's Coronation class pacifics. With a heavy Scotch express they could crest the summit at Shap at about 15mph...and that was with the help of a banking engine pushing from Tebay. When the class 81, 25KV electrics were introduced around 50 yrs ago, the same train was going over the summit at 90 mph with no second engine. ! Impressive ? Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:22   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> When the class 81 25KV electrics were introduced around 50 yrs ago the same train >> was going over the summit at 90 mph with no second engine. >> ! >> Impressive ? Indeed - do you have any figures for the sort of motors they use in trains? Eg. what do they use in the 125s that whisk me from Reading to Bath and back 3 times a week? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:27   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

I'll have a look in my rail library, Focus. I've not many books on Electric/diesels though. out of my 140. Meanwhile here's one of Bill Stanier's masterpieces for the West Coast Main Line. No 6229 Duchess of Hamilton. Part of the national Collection and re-streamlined with a Lottery grant. tinyurl.com/ycf89vh Better paint job than some new cars ! Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:34   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

Two 12 cylinder paxman valenta diesel engines, running at 1500 rpm, capable of 2250 bhp driving Brush Traction BA1001B alternators driving GEC G417AZ or Brush Traction TMH68-46 traction motors. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:37   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> driving Brush Traction BA1001B alternators driving GEC G417AZ >> or Brush Traction TMH68-46 traction motors. Thanks, but what are the specs for those? I've found the tractive effort for the whole unit, but how does one motor compare with, say, the 1800 watt thing in our hoover? (I'm guessing it's more powerful.) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:42   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

That would be a 1,320 kW (1,770 bhp) hoover as opposed to your 1.8kw 1.5 bhp hoover Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:43   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

>> Thanks but what are the specs for those? I've found the tractive effort for the >> whole unit but how does one motor compare with say the 1800 watt thing in >> our hoover? (I'm guessing it's more powerful.) >> 1800W is about 2.5 bhp so broadly speaking one coronation class loco is about 700 hoovers, a HST twin set about 1800 hoovers. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:49   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

Thanks sc and Z, that's exactly the sort of info I was after. Wow, think how much more housework SWMBO could do if we had one of those in the hoover! :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:50   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

It would suck my dog up the pipe Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:37   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

wapedia.mobi/en/British_Rail_Class_43_%28HST%29 Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:41   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> wapedia.mobi/en/British_Rail_Class_43_%28HST%29 Thanks Ted, I'll bookmark that. But again, not much info on the actual motors. BTW don't know if you heard but the plans announced last year to electrify at great cost the west main line that goes out of Paddington which I pick up at Reading have been shelved. Hopefully the money they save will keep the excellent 125s running for quite a while longer... Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:38   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

You beat me to it.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxman_Valenta Not many Valenta engined ones left now. So a twin set of HST power cars has a bit less bhp than one class 90 electric. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:49   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

A Coronation, with a 600 ton train had a derived reading of 3333 horsepower at the cylinders. The class held the world steam speed record for a while at 114 mph. However a too-fast entry over some points into Crewe made the management decide to stop the record seeking. Fortunately, due to good trackwork and good riding of the loco, a disaster was averted ! It was one of the class, the ' City of Glasgow ' which caused the disaster at Harrow and Wealdstone in October '52 where over 112 lives were lost. Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:51   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> due to good trackwork and good riding of the loco ? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:55   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Spammie, Are you an enthusiast of ' 73 Squadren ' or is 61 just your age....:-) Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:57   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

I'm a mere spring chicken that was born in 1961 ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:01   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Focus, The train entered Crewe station over pointwork that had a speed restriction of about 15mph at ac much greater speed......it could have been as much as 60 mph, I'll look it up. The quality of the permanent way and the balance of the engine's wheels saved the day, unlike earlier examples of high speed derailments on curves and points, such as at Shrewsbury and Salisbury where many lives were lost. Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:06   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> The quality of the permanent way I see - when you said 'trackwork', I assumed it was something to do with the way the driver drove the train eg. he made corrections to the steering. Which didn't seem likely. >> and the balance of the engine's wheels ...and that explains the other bit, thanks. I've never stood on platforms taking train numbers, but I do find a lot of this stuff very interesting. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:55   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

I didn't realise they got that much horsepower out of a Coronation, I'd better up my hoover rating! Wouldn't want to be the fireman trying to shovel coal fast enough to sustain 3333hp. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 16:59   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

thats 3333 hp at the cylinders, not the rail. Plus dont forget the BHP per tonne. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:02   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

2500 at the drawbar I think. Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:05   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

>> 2500 at the drawbar I think. >> >> Ted >> Yeah that sounds reasonable, IIRC on the '48 locomotive exchanges a (light) spamcan managed about 2100 edhp so 2500 sounds reasonable for a bigger engine. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:10   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Somones going to ask what a Spamcan is in a minute, Spammers....post them a picture . Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:19   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Shrewsbury 1907. tinyurl.com/yea4z4a Something to look at while I go and have me tea ! Ted Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:23   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Focusless

>> Shrewsbury 1907. More info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrewsbury_rail_accident Doing 60 in a 10 zone - driver dozed off allegedly, which must take some doing in the cab of a steam engine going full tilt. www.darwincountry.org/explore/021778.html?sid= www.gettyimages.com/detail/75930232/Hulton-Archive Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Mar 10 at 17:26 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:31   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

I think 'driver dosing off' is also considered the cause of the Salisbury derailment, although this still seems dubious to me given, as stated, the environment of the footplate, and the fact there's the fireman there as well. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:39   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

given the fact there was no working time directives, double shifts were common. The beat of an engine, the regular movement, the heat, its quite a hynoptic place. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:58   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

Yes, fair enough. I did read a book recently which looked at the incident in detail, given that wikipedia for one gives 'driver speeding' as the cause, and their conclusion was that dozing or possibly narcoleptic driver were much more likely. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:28   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - spamcan61

Ok... www.wadebridge34007.co.uk/PicsFiles/063.html A spamcan sitting almost exactly where my mum's house is now. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 17:35   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

well it beats a pond and a garden gnome fishing. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 20:45   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Zero

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/8537539.stm Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 4 Mar 10 21:15   Talking about trains and Silver Fox - Ted

Similar accidents on the curves at Grantham and Preston. At Harrow, the driver and fireman of the City of Glasgow were both witnessed by a signal man. They were both standing looking out of the spectacle plate on each side of the cab before it ploughed into the back of the Euston commuter train at high speed. There was no evidence of alcohol or of a fight or disagreemant between them. It remains a mystery why they ran through signals. I have the book published later about this event and several others on UK accidents. There were many ! Ted Reply to this message | Report message