In my previous employer, a team of about 150 clerical and admin staff were transferred a year and a day ago to an outsourcing company. All their terms and conditions remained the same and they were assured that nothing would change. I guess their salary range was between £16k and £25k depending on experience.
Yesterday they were told that their jobs are being off-shored to India.
There will be no redundancy pay as the employees have only worked for the new company for 1 year.
The employers previous policy was generous at 1 to 2 months pay for every year worked and some of the staff there had been there for 30 years though the average was about 5.
Most of the staff were very good at what they did.
This is sharp practice at best especially as the previous employer is partly state owned!
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Who is outsourcing to India?
Crapita? Serco? G4s?
Just had a bad experience with Scottish Power & their computer system / India call centre.
With almost 3 hours work I got a rebate of £54 - faulty software & poor customer service when the error was pointed out!
Between Tesco & SP I have had £79 back in errors & compensation for errors - not bad in a month BUT my youngest son regularly gets rebates of £ Hundreds!
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Don't TUPE regs apply in the OP's situation?
www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655
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>> Don't TUPE regs apply in the OP's situation?
>>
>> www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655
TUPE has no protection against redundancy later down the outsource path*, merely says you can't sack people as part of the transfer.
*if it did, outsourcing would not exist.
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>>TUPE has no protection against redundancy later down the outsource path
The TUPE regulations apply in the following situations:
•a contractor takes over activities from a client (known as outsourcing).
•a new contractor takes over activities from another contractor (known as re-tendering).
•a client takes over activities from a contractor (known as in sourcing).
When TUPE applies, the employees of the outgoing employer automatically become employees of the incoming employer at the point of transfer. They carry with them their continuous service from the outgoing employer, and should continue to enjoy the same terms and conditions of employment with the incoming employer.
I'm not an employment lawyer, but I'd be seeking ACAS/legal advice to clarify the position.
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>> I'm not an employment lawyer, but I'd be seeking ACAS/legal advice to clarify the position.
Nothing there says you can't make people redundant down the line. ACAS wont change it, thats how outsourcing works. You have to prove that company B always intended to make company A's employees redundant after a period of time. Good luck with getting hold of that little nugget
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 12:58
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>>Nothing there says you can't make people redundant down the line
Absolutely, but my understanding is that if TUPE applies for a transfer, an employee's continuous length of service includes the period prior to transfer.
Certainly applies in NHS employment when staff change between organisations.
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>> >>Nothing there says you can't make people redundant down the line
>>
>> Absolutely, but my understanding is that if TUPE applies for a transfer, an employee's continuous
>> length of service includes the period prior to transfer.
>>
>> Certainly applies in NHS employment when staff change between organisations.
Indeed, BUT redundancy terms can be changed (because they were never in your CoE) to, say one week for every year to a maximum of £10,000, or 6 months pay or whatever. In effect the new company dictates what redundancy terms are. They make your continuous employment years valueless.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 13:05
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>>Indeed, BUT redundancy terms can be changed
If they weren't in the contract then there's nothing to change.
The OP's comment was:
"There will be no redundancy pay as the employees have only worked for the new company for 1 year.""
My understanding is that there will be redundancy pay, and continuous service applies, so no-one was cheated out of anything.
If it wasn't in the contract, the original company could have offered exactly the same terms as the new one.
Statutory redundancy pay I expect would still apply (as a minimum), with continuous service applied - 0.5wk/yr worked to age 22, 1wk/yr between 22-40, and 1.5wk/yr age 41+ (capped at £460/wk)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 13:12
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SQ again for Mr Lazy. If you keep quoting everything in full, then I'll just delete the post as it's quicker!
>> "There will be no redundancy pay as the employees have only worked for the new
>> company for 1 year.""
The original post was wrong, because as we agree, there is no entitlement to redundancy pay except statutory terms in sourced or outsourced.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 17:06
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>> The original post was wrong, because as we agree, there is no entitlement to redundancy
>> pay except statutory terms in sourced or outsourced.
>>
I'm not sure we do agree that. Take sick pay as an analogy. While Statutory Sick Pay is a minimum some employers offer more up to and including weeks or months on full pay. Some, my former employer included, offer 'better than statutory' terms for redundancy.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/work-comes-to-an-end/redundancy/redundancy-pay/
Question here is:
(1) Does TUPE protect length of service for statutory redundancy pay?
(2) Can the employer resile from the terms in the contract?
I suspect (2) can be achieved by 'negotiation'. (1) is more difficult to deny.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 13:40
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Your contract can be changed if business reasons justify it. There's a process to go through, but anybody who thinks that their contract is inviolate is wrong.
You can make people redundant despite TUPE provided only that you can show the business justification. The transfer itself is not justification.
Redundancy terms can be changed, provided that they are not changed within a single round. It must be seen as a separate redundancy process.
I was pretty sure that length of service was protected, but it may not be. That'd need to be checked.
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i.e. your "entitlement" is to statutory redundancy pay ONLY unless you can show that you are part of a single redundancy campaign involving others who were offered increased terms.
Then you are entitled to the same.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 13:45
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>> I was pretty sure that length of service was protected, but it may not be.
>> That'd need to be checked.
FWIW I'm getting my 10 year service award later this year with the company that took us over 2 years ago (3 companies in total over that 10 years).
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>> or whatever. In effect the new company dictates what redundancy terms are. They make your
>> continuous employment years valueless.
Edit - they do have pension value tho if you are part of a defined benefit final salary scheme. One of the reason why
a: you were outsourced from company a: in the first place
b: First out the door from company b: and your job off shored to pensionless mumbai.
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>> TUPE has no protection against redundancy later down the outsource path*, merely says you can't
>> sack people as part of the transfer.
>>
>> *if it did, outsourcing would not exist.
The issue here is not redundancy itself but employees' statutory or contractual entitlements to compensation in a redundancy situation.
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>> The issue here is not redundancy itself but employees' statutory or contractual entitlements to compensation
>> in a redundancy situation.
I defy most people to find enhanced redundancy terms in your contract of employment (including your old one before outsource), of course golden handshake terms exist, but not for ordinary jo punter.
Looking at the employee COE is part of the outsource planning/costing/viability/RA
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 17:06
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>> Looking at the employee COE is part of the outsource planning/costing/viability/RA
>>
Having been through this crap myself in the not so distant past (2010) then the key phrase is "custom and practice" - if the original employer paid out enhanced redundancy packages then the new employer is obliged to do so, as it is an inferred contract term. Caveats:-
1 - As stated this was in 2010, so HMG might have changed the rules subsequently
2 - You'll need a way of proving the old company paid out enhanced redundancy packages
3 - The new employer is unlikely to roll over and just do this, so proper legal advice and representation will be needed.
4 - The new employer may decide it's cheaper to liquidate the company than pay enhanced redundancy, a game of poker may ensue.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 17:06
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>> I defy most people to find enhanced redundancy terms in your contract of employment
My team and I managed to get them written into our contracts before transfer.
I was paid the terms when I was made redundant about 5 years later.
I was fortunate in working for two decent employers - both played fair.
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>>My team and I managed to get them written into our contracts before transfer.
Good for you, I assume some kind of compromise agreement? It'd be surprising if you got them into the normal contract because of the precedent it sets..
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 3 Apr 16 at 21:18
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>> Don't TUPE regs apply in the OP's situation?
>>
>> www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655
Looks as though the employer thinks a year +1 day is enough to change the rules.
If this query came to CAB I'd be 'signposting' to ACAS. Also, if the original employer is a large outfit with Govt involvement there's likely to be a Trades Union.
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>>Crapita? Serco? G4s?
Some American outfit. I can't recall their name at the moment.
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>> >>Crapita? Serco? G4s?
>>
>> Some American outfit. I can't recall their name at the moment.
Perm any one of them, add Atos, HP, IBM tot he list, they all behave the same way.
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Being made redundant years ago was oddly enough one of the best things I think ever happened to me. It didn't feel like it at the time but it forced me to take stock of my life, re-appraise what I wanted from it and to take commercial and financial risks I certainly wouldn't have otherwise.
So many of us find ourselves trapped in a comfort zone, frankly not enjoying it much but too scared to break free.
I feel really sorry for anyone going through it of course, it's a scary place. Modern life revolves around monthly incomes financing monthly payments and when that cycle is broken it causes countless problems. However, it's also a stark reality of the modern world that there are fewer and fewer jobs for life.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 13:18
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You [they] need proper advice.
ACAS 0300 123 1100
www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655
However, the position is not great and whilst it is obviously sharp practice, unless you can prove it was pre planned that way, I'm not sure what can be done.
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The OP refers to previous redundancy being compensated at 1-2 months per year worked - this must surely have been for voluntary redundancies at that time rather than a typical business approach.
I think we have a consensus (more or less) that:
1. TUPE very likely protects the length of service of these employees
2. TUPE offers no protection whatsoever against being made redundant (it's a business decision)
3. It is entirely up to the organisation what their terms of redundancy are (with the minimum being the statutory requirement I mention above - only whole years of service apply so if someone has worked less than 12 months they get squat)
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>> You [they] need proper advice.
>>
>> ACAS 0300 123 1100
>>
>> www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655
>>
Thanks, I was looking for that number, we involved ACAS in the shenanigans I described above, from memory a half hour consultation was free.
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I expect their service will count but the redundancy terms will be statutory, i.e. one weeks pay for each full year if under 41, one and a half weeks for if 41 or over, capped at £475 per week and 20 qualifying years. Maximum redundancy pay therefore is £14250. The new employer will simply adopt a different policy. 1 or 2 months pay for every year worked is incredibly generous by any standards and I would think highly unusual now - no chance that any battery farming outsource supplier will offer it.
My last employer's practice was to pay the statutory number of weeks but with no cap on the amount. But there was talk of changing that practice to statutory only, and nothing to stop them doing it - the redundancy terms were never in the contracts.
I had a notice clause in my contract, dating back to 1998 when I joined - 3 months from me or 6 months from them. On at least three occasions, once when being promoted, and also when the grading system was tinkered with, a new contract was issued with 3 months either side. On each occasion I asked for the original terms to be reinstated, which they were (easier to argue about when they aren't actually making you redundant was my reasoning!). Point being that employers can basically change contracts any time they want and by continuing to work there you are deemed to have accepted it.
One of the reasons I was not unhappy to go in 2012 when they decided I had worked myself out of a job was that at 59 they were bound to get me before too long, and at some point in the future they could well have been less generous. I wasn't required to work my notice and was glad of the extra 6 months wages.
Still worth a go at ACAS though, and make sure they know there are 150 people involved.
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On a similar note, B&Q are apparently now saying "here's your new minimum living wage thingy, but obviously that means you need to sign a new contract reducing your pay and perks everywhere else, sign it or you're sacked".
All over various tabloids. Here's an example.
www.diyweek.net/news/news.asp?id=19526
No idea how legal or otherwise that is, but it feels very Victorian from those of us lucky enough not to be directly involved.
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>>B&Q
More sharp practice.
I always wonder about companies that do this - where else and what else are they cutting behind the scenes - in product quality, service etc?
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A shop I have gone into less and less, never had a good experience in there, the staff didn't know where things were and the selves seemed to have had the items chucked at them and were frequently in the wrong places.
'Pay peanuts get monkeys'
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>>I always wonder about companies that do this - where else and what else are they cutting behind the scenes
I agree.
However, in my experience its usually shocking incompetence rather than a deliberate act. It is truly worrying how little some HR groups know about the law, normal behaviour, or even the basic managing of people.
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It came around the time that employees became a resource.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 4 Apr 16 at 01:40
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>>It came around the time that employees became a resource.
I always liked the way that a truly idiotic HR Manager can use the phrase "We want to have the best employees in the industry" and then follow it with "we want to level our remuneration package in line with all the other employers in our sector"
t***s, of the very first degree.
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I've just received the Annual Report and Invitation to Stockholders meeting for my previous employer.
The Annual Report is 151 pages of double column per page. The Invitation to Stockholders is 64 pages of double column, so it's pretty close to 430 pages of regular type.
The section entitled "Employees and Related Workforce" amounts to a one column paragraph of nine lines.
I'm still reading the pages and pages about "Executive Compensation".
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HR - Know the cost to the £ of everything and the value of nothing.
e.g.
Off shoring IT to save money on paper - the reality may be something different.
RBS/Nat West / Ulster Bank had companies & people locked out of their money for up to a month just a few years back.
Sacked employees being hired as contractors to sort out the mess - lessons learned?
No - RBS IT still done in India - no alternatives - you cannot put things back after sacking 10's of thousands.
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Cheated Out of Redundancy - Falkirk Bairn
