Who was the Budget 2016 for. We are an open economy that trades with the entire world.
I have no doubt as a country we can whether the global storm.
I wish the poor did not have to pay the biggest burden whereas the rich get the largest hand out.
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>> I wish the poor did not have to pay the biggest burden whereas the rich get the largest hand out
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
It's the poor what gets the blame:
It's the same the whole world over.
Ain't it all a bleeding shame?
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Its the poor paying for the rich.
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Whats a troll.
Please explain.
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"Whats a troll.
Please explain."
Here you go, Fluffo:
tinyurl.com/beocen
Last edited by: Focal Point on Fri 8 Apr 16 at 18:36
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Are you from the South of England, Fluffy? Only i thought I heard someone mention Kent.
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>> I thought I heard someone mention Kent.
>>
....Either your hearing or your spelling have gone to pot........
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>> >Either your hearing or your spelling have gone to pot........
That makes sense, because i couldn't work out how a county could be stupid and boring.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 8 Apr 16 at 18:57
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That was what that robot said to the guy with the hockey stick wasn't it?
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>> No comment.
>>
You just did.
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>> No comment.
Not like you to be lost for words ;)
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I have no doubt as a country we can whether the global storm.
Weather, fluffy, not 'whether'. Sorry, no offence.
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Whether we can or not that is the question.>:)
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>>I wish the poor did not have to pay the biggest burden whereas the rich get the largest hand out.>>
If you keep repeating the same mantra, eventually people will sadly begin to believe it.
Without the private sector wealth creators, there is no future for the public sector or any other for that matter.
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If you keep repeating the same mantra, eventually people will sadly begin to believe it.
>>
Without the private sector wealth creators, there is no future for the public sector or any other for that matter.
Both need each other, you can't have one without the other.
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Then why not have a 100% private sector.
Who advocates privatising the health service.
What about education. Are not school academys private schools. More for the private sector.
Is not our local government slowly being privatised.
Thats another notch for the Adam Smith Institute.
I could go on and on.
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>> I could go on and on.
I have an awful feeling that you will :-(
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>> >> I could go on and on.
>> I have an awful feeling that you will :-(
Tee hee... :o}
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>> I wish the poor did not have to pay the biggest burden whereas the
>> rich get the largest hand out.
>>
>>
>>
The poor exist on handouts from tax revenues. Just now they are lower.
The rich pay taxes: maybe not as much as they should but something like 1% of taxpayers pay 27% of all income tax receipts..
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Worth repeating - often.
It is not the government's money, (aka "funding") it's taxpayer's money.
Pay more: get more.
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Or even taxpayers' money.
};---)
But that's specious anyway. Government in a democracy is by consent, so we also consent to give our money to the government we've elected and trust them to spend it wisely. We may campaign but not control - until the next election (and provided we live in a marginal constituency.)
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Its the Government that decides how our tax revenues are spent
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>>on handouts from tax revenues<<
What's the difference between paying for fully comprehensive insurance for 20 years and then having a bad day and being involved in an 'own fault' accident.
You would make a claim on that insurance and expect it to pay out.
Would you call that a 'handout'?
Pat
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We dodge along pretending things are getting better!
We have a massive trade debt - every month. The £ is down against lots of major currencies.
We have a booming London & the South East - busy, busy - house prices out of reach of many. We have struggling services - NHS, Police,........
The country is flooded with Chinese consumer goods, French & German cars everywhere and our own manufacturing sector bumps along the bottom. OK we can point out star manufacturers & exporters but we do not make enough, invent enough, sell enough to pay our way in the world.
When I was a boy 60+ years ago there was manufacturing industry everywhere - Steel, boat building, textiles, engineering on the grand scale..............everything we seem to buy on the High Street comes from anywhere BUT the UK.
I did not see that much in the Budget that set a course to resolve the problems we have just now and the deeper problems down the line.
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I think there are a lot of mistaken assumptions there, FB. manufacturing has declined as a share of UK GDP but mainly because of growth in other areas. In the 50 years to 2007, the UK roughly doubled its manufacturing output in terms of Gross Value Add.
In terms of motor vehicles, the UK produces almost as many now as it did at its numerical peak in around 1970. It's been fashionable to blame unions and workforce for the loss of British brand names since then, but the success of the likes of Nissan, Toyota, BMW and even Jaguar-Land Rover under foreign ownership suggests that the overriding problem wasn't the workforce but the management; get that right and British workers are the equal of any.
What we can do here is the high-value development and design work. I have some expensive audio equipment at home; some of it was built in Taiwan, but all of it was designed in Wembley, Huntingdon, Salisbury or Glasgow, and the firms that made it do good export business too.
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I did mention
>>OK we can point out star manufacturers & exporters but we do not make enough, invent >>enough, sell enough to pay our way in the world.
We have currently a run on the pound - down from $1.70= £1
20 months ago to about $1.40 to the £1.
We are £billions owed every month as we import masses of consumer goods, cars, food.......
When I was a boy it was $2.80 to the £1 - we had problems but if we lose another $1.40 the £ would be worth Zero
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Hardly a run but the pound's drop in value is mostly attributable to the EU referendum. Exporters won't mind it, of course.
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>> but the success of the likes
>> of Nissan, Toyota, BMW and even Jaguar-Land Rover under foreign ownership suggests that the overriding
>> problem wasn't the workforce but the management; get that right and British workers are the
>> equal of any.
The two have to go together. A sensible workforce and a sensible management.
Our current car workers have a right to be proud of their achievements, they've done well.
The taming of Unions helped, of course.
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>> The taming of Unions helped, of course.
>>
It's worth pointing out that both Toyota and Nissan are highly unionised; I don't know about others.
The Japanese have a less confrontational and more inclusive attitude towards unions than the old British firms ever did; I do however think that in some ways unions have learned from their past mistakes, in the car manufacturing sector at least.
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>>
>> >> The taming of Unions helped, of course.
>> >>
>>
>>
>> It's worth pointing out that both Toyota and Nissan are highly unionised; I don't know about others.
Likewise i can think of a couple of other big firms that have very strong unions and have work practices that would make a 1970s shop convener feel all warm and fuzzy.
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>> Likewise i can think of a couple of other big firms that have very strong
>> unions and have work practices that would make a 1970s shop convener feel all warm
>> and fuzzy.
>>
I'm tempted to suggest that it'd more likely make them die of frustration. Keeping the workers happy and productive is anathema to most of the Trotskyites who inhabit the upper echelons of the union movement. They require the peasants to be revolting, not rejoicing.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 29 Mar 16 at 23:53
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> I'm tempted to suggest that it'd more likely make them die of frustration.
not from what i saw, they all seemed most content. They were the ones using and doing said practices and not a union rep to be seen.
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>>
>>
>> When I was a boy 60+ years ago there was ....
>>
Rose-tinted National Health spectacles I suspect.
There were massively inefficient coal, steel, motor industries, lamentable labour relations (remember I'm All Right Jack ?), constant balance of payments crises, runs on the pound, currency controls, hire purchase controls, high taxation, ...
and delusions that nationalising everything would make it all wonderful.
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>>Both need each other, you can't have one without the other.
No. The rich need the workers. They do not need the unemployed, lazy and unemployable.
The poor always need the rich to subsidise their lives.
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>> >>Both need each other, you can't have one without the other.
>>
>> No. The rich need the workers. They do not need the unemployed, lazy and unemployable.
>>
>> The poor always need the rich to subsidise their lives.
>>
I never said anything about rich or poor people.
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>> The poor always need the rich to subsidise their lives.
Subsidise is not the word I would use. It's the mass of people who "create" the wealth, the system in which it is created means that the rich stick on to more of it. "The surplus accrues to the capitalist".
The rich get richer because that's how capital and markets work, not because they are much brighter than everybody else. Marx might not have had the solution, but he certainly understood the problem.
Take the top 100 rich people and put them all together on their own and see how much money they make.
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Can someone please list in simple terms
1. Definition of rich and poor
2. How riches will be benefited by the budget
3. How poors will suffer because of budget
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I have noticed more people begging on our streets.Poor housing low wages and general discontent with politicians.
If you pay less tax you will benefit or don't pay any tax that is how the riches benefit.
Taking money of people with severe disability's or making the criteria in such a way that they are not classed as disabled is mean and dishonest.
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I'm in favour of welfare cuts if it prevents someone being given the equivalent of my annual salary for sitting on their 4rse.
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>>
if it prevents someone being given the equivalent of
>> my annual salary for sitting on their 4rse.
>>
But it doesn't:)
The serial 4rse sitter will find a way to do that and make a bit cash in hand for beer and fags whatever cuts are made.
Pat
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It is easy to generalise regarding welfare.Anybody who can work should but attacking people on genuine disability is a no no.
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I agree, the genuine cases shouldn't be penalized. Unfortunately there are a lot of shysters out there and one of the biggest areas of fraud with regard to state benefits and local authority discounts is from the self-employed.
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The Squirrel & The Grasshopper
The real world version
The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building and improving his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The Grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.
The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
The politically correct version
The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.
A social worker finds the shivering grasshopper, calls a press conference and demands to know why the squirrel should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like the grasshopper, are cold and starving.
The BBC shows up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper; with cuts to a video of the squirrel in his comfortable warm home with a table laden with food. The British press informs people that they should be ashamed that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so while others have plenty.
The Labour Party, Greenpeace, Animal Rights and The Grasshopper Council of GB demonstrate in front of the squirrel's house. The BBC, interrupting a cultural festival special from Notting Hill with breaking news, broadcasts a multi cultural choir singing "We Shall Overcome".
Ken Livingstone rants in an interview with Trevor McDonald that the squirrel has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the squirrel to make him pay his "fair share" and increases the charge for squirrels to enter Inner London.
In response to pressure from the media, the Government drafts the Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti Discrimination Act, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
The squirrel's taxes are reassessed. He is taken to court and fined for failing to hire grasshoppers as builders for the work he was doing on his home and an additional fine for contempt when he told the court the grasshopper did not want to work.
The grasshopper is provided with a council house, financial aid to furnish it and an account with a local taxi firm to ensure he can be socially mobile.
The squirrel's food is seized and re distributed to the more needy members of society, in this case the grasshopper. Without enough money to buy more food, to pay the fine and his newly imposed retroactive taxes, the squirrel has to downsize and start building a new home.
The local authority takes over his old home and utilises it as a temporary home for asylum seeking cats who had hijacked a plane to get to Britain as they had to share their country of origin with mice. On arrival they tried to blow up the airport because of Britain's apparent love of dogs.
The cats had been arrested for the international offence of hijacking and attempted bombing but were immediately released because the police fed them pilchards instead of salmon whilst in custody. Initial moves to then return them to their own country were abandoned because it was feared they would face death by the mice. The cats devise and start a scam to obtain money from peoples credit cards.
A Panorama special shows the grasshopper finishing up the last of the squirrel's food, though spring is still months away, while the council house he is in crumbles around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain the house. He is shown to be taking drugs. Inadequate government funding is blamed for the grasshopper's drug 'illness'.
The cats seek recompense in the British courts for their treatment since arrival in the UK.
The grasshopper gets arrested for stabbing an old dog during a burglary to get money for his drugs habit. He is imprisoned but released immediately because he has been in custody for a few weeks. He is placed in the care of the probation service to monitor and supervise him. Within a few weeks he has killed a guinea pig in a botched robbery.
A commission of enquiry, that will eventually cost £10,000,000 and state the obvious, is set up. Additional money is put into funding a drug rehabilitation scheme for grasshoppers and legal aid for lawyers representing asylum seekers is increased. The asylum seeking cats are praised by the government for enriching Britain's multicultural diversity and dogs are criticised by the government for failing to befriend the cats. The grasshopper dies of a drug overdose.
The usual sections of the press blame it on the obvious failure of government to address the root causes of despair arising from social inequity and his traumatic experience of prison. They call for the resignation of a minister. The cats are paid a million pounds each because their rights were infringed when the government failed to inform them there were mice in the United Kingdom.
The squirrel, the dogs and the victims of the hijacking, the bombing, the burglaries and robberies have to pay an additional percentage on their credit cards to cover losses, their taxes are increased to pay for law and order and they are told that they will have to work beyond 65 because of a shortfall in government funds.
Oh and the Squirrel? He moved abroad.
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Excellent, I can't be entirely thick as two short planks as some would have me believe, because I understood every bit of logic behind that!
Pat
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b***** grasshoppers coming over here and pinching our jobs.
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What everybody seems to forget is that whatever system is put in place changes behaviour. If you identify a need that will cost £1bn to satisfy, you can guarantee it will end up costing a multiple of that. Imagine what would happen to the number of people becoming homeless if homeless people automatically qualified for a council flat.
From 1m DLA claimants in 1992, there were 3m by 2011, a trend well ahead of any measures of the levels of sickness and disability (not helped by the fact that 60% or more had lifetime entitlement so would never lose it even if they got better).
The main beneficiaries of housing benefit (a far more serious racket than most people realise) are landlords whose business plans are built around it, and their actions raise rents and property prices at homebuyers' and taxpayers expense.
So the changes have to be rung continually to shake the gamers out of the system for a bit. That's a crude way of putting it but that's what it amounts to.
I don't say that people in need should be left to rot, I'm just pointing out that there is a continuous need to chip away at the costs of welfare to offset the natural growth caused by behaviours; and that is before you have to deal with any budgetary coat cutting.
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Interesting example Manatee. Do you mind revealing the source?
Taking 1992 as start year will inevitably show a significant growth as there was no DLA before then. Number claiming in that year would be those migrated from previous benefits of Mobility Allowance and Attendance Allowance in payment to those under pension age. DLA introduced new lower rates for people with either Care and/or Mobility needs at a lower level than significant help by day, night or both with bodily functions or being unable or virtually unable to walk. In doing so it gave something to those, particularly the young and mentally impaired who, though mobile needed looking after outdoors and those who had low level care needs - unable for example to safely prepare a basic meal.
Lifetime awards were to release the official time and claimant humiliation involved in repeatedly proving that amputated limbs had not regrown, congenital conditions were not cured or the effects of medical negligence suddenly reversed. They were a deliberate policy decision by a decent and humane minister (Tony Newton) after intensive lobbying by disability charities.
Although there were no new awards for Mobility after pension age those getting it before keep it. The ageing population means more in that group too.
Sure there are/were problems, not least fraud around Motability cars - reported a particularly prevalent in Northern Ireland.
Replacing DLA with Personal Independence Payment was intended, in part at least, to address the benefits>behaviour link you highlight. The conversion of existing awards is far from complete and producing all manner of egregious results:
tinyurl.com/zfbdq4m (Northants Chron and Echo).
Govt is now proposing further cuts without waiting to see the evidence on how current phase are panning out. Will be interesting to see how those play on the Tory backbenches. Those who voted a £30 cut in another disability benefit, Employment Support Allowance, are presently suffering a sheet storm in social media. I'm just about to write to my MP asking him how he justifies himself to his conscience.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 17 Mar 16 at 15:10
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Something that often irks me is the regular declaration by otherwise sensible people that "I've paid my stamp for X years and now they're cutting MY pension."
No, sorry dear. It ain't YOUR money that's paying for YOUR pension; your money is paying for today's pensioners, your children and grandchildren are paying for yours.
My reasoning as follows; old age pensions started in 1908, and as far as I'm aware were immediately available to everyone over 70 who qualified under means testing; in other words, the poor. Unlike a personal private pension, there was no measure to accumulate a fund byinvoking a staged qualification period; in other words, people of working age in 1908 were paying for their parents, and so it continues to this day, permanently in hock.
As has been made abundantly by many learned sources for some years, as the number of retired as a percentage continues to grow, so the money supply into the pension pot will continue to shrink. Personally I'm surprised that the move towards a higher qualifying age for state pension didn't happen a generation ago, or at least the equalising of mens and womens pension ages, it having been a given for decades that women outlive men.
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Indeed - but as an age group, olds are more likely to vote so Politicians don't like to upset them. That's why we have all this extravagance such as free bus passes, triple-lock pensions, heating allowance etc.
Last edited by: The Melting Snowman on Thu 17 Mar 16 at 21:15
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>> Indeed - but as an age group, olds are more likely to vote so Politicians
>> don't like to upset them. That's why we have all this extravagance such as free
>> bus passes, triple-lock pensions, heating allowance etc.
>>
Let's not stop it now though. Most of us here are at or approaching the time of life when we cop for the lot. I qualified for the heating allowance this winter.
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Yes leave it a while! I've got nowt yet except a reduction on my National Trust membership.
Those looking forward to the bus pass like me can check their eligibility date here
www.gov.uk/state-pension-age/y/bus_pass
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Our state pension is one of the lowest in Europe and is not linked to salaries.
Not everybody has or is lucky enough to have a company pension.My wife after caring all her working live for old people and folks with learning difficulties receives the pricely sum of $400 a month state pension.
Yes older people vote so should the young.Make it compulsory to vote and all this nonsense will stop that a party with minority votes rules a country.I am not a UKIP fan but they had over 4 million votes and one MP?
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Do you mean the retirement age increases? As far as I know, nobody has had their pension in payment, or occupational pension benefits accrued, cut.
Whilst public sector schemes generally and the state pension, there is no big pot of saved up contributions, but there is a contract, morally at least, when you have been told that your pension will come at 60 (as women were) and now it will be 67.
I think the life expectancy increases have been more of a problem than the dependency ratio.
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>..it having been a given for decades that women outlive men.
I keep getting those threats too.
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I was channel flipping on TV last night and caught a program on C5 about High Court bailiffs.
One segment was about three evictions being carries out in one small close of houses in High Barnet.
All three properties were owned by the same landlady and none of the tenants was in arrears - just at the end of the contracted lease period.
All the tenants were single mothers with young children, all seemingly on benefits, and during the program it was suggested that because of the housing benefits cap the owner of the properties was being limited on the rent that could be obtained.
Furthermore, it was also suggested that landlady was likely to be turning the properties into council funded emergency accommodation for the homeless, as the council paid a damn site more than the maximum "ordinary" rent.
Irony doesn't come near it, if the emergency homeless tenants turned out to be the self same folk just made homeless by the landlady concerned.
If this IS true there is something seriously wrong in the system.
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I was surprised by one of those tables showing the effects on different age and income bands. It showed that for exactly the same level of income at higher levels, that the over 75s benefit from the budget much more than a working couple with children. That cannot be right. I am myself retired, although not yet state pension age, and I don't see why us well-off pensioners are treated better than working people. Poor pensioners are a different matter and need protection. The tables I am referring to are not about the poor, they included incomes up to £75k (or was it £100k? It was a lot anyway).
I can see the political expediency in not excessively taxing the grey vote but favouring us goes against my sense of fairness.
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It's politically popular to support the pensioners. every year there seems to be a race to who can offer the most. Mind you some women coming upto retirement age haven't done very well out of the latest changes.
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Exactly what are these amazing benefits you receive as a pensioner? I seem to be missing out.
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>> It's politically popular to support the pensioners.
Only because there are a lot of us and we are more likely to vote. If you lose the grey vote you lose your job.
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>> I was channel flipping on TV last night and caught a program on C5 about
>> High Court bailiffs.
>> One segment was about three evictions being carries out in one small close of houses
>> in High Barnet.
1. In a capitalist society, a landlord should be able to let their property to whom they choose, for as much rent as they choose.
2. Who were the tenants? Why were they not in stable relationships? Where were the fathers? Why were the women having children that they could not afford to house?
3. And so on.
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>> 1. In a capitalist society, a landlord should be able to let their property to
>> whom they choose, for as much rent as they choose.
The tenant is not the one who pays, so the market in that sense doesn't work.
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Some landlords and service providers have fallen foul of equal rights legislation regardless of their own views. Nowhere near a level playing field.
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>> 1. In a capitalist society, a landlord should be able to let their property to
>> whom they choose, for as much rent as they choose.
We don't live in a free for all, there are rules and restrictions placed on people for all many of reasons.
>> 2. Who were the tenants? Why were they not in stable relationships? Where were the
>> fathers? Why were the women having children that they could not afford to house?
No-one has a crystal ball.
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Breaking news is that Iain Duncan Smith has resigned over handling of proposed changes to PIP.
The politics of that and relationship to his Euroscepticism will be 'interesting'.
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>> Breaking news is that Iain Duncan Smith has resigned over handling of proposed changes to
>> PIP.
>>
>> The politics of that and relationship to his Euroscepticism will be 'interesting'.
IDS is not a well loved asset to any campaign. Unless you are an SEL in the party. Even then he is peripheral.
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With other words he comes across as a selfish t w a t.
The quiet man.Is it still waters have deep grounds.?
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Resignation letter suggests issue was Gideon's tanks on his lawn.
If that's case then chapeau to him. The disability benefits stuff was a least third time this year I've though what the *uck has that policy announcement to do with HM Treasury.
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what the *uck has that policy announcement to do with
>> HM Treasury.
>>
They think everything is to do with them.
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An extract from IDS's resignation letter...
"I have for some time and rather reluctantly come to believe that the latest changes to benefits to the disabled and the context in which they've been made are, a compromise too far. While they are defensible in narrow terms, given the continuing deficit, they are not defensible in the way they were placed within a Budget that benefits higher earning taxpayers. They should have instead been part of a wider process to engage others in finding the best way to better focus resources on those most in need."
Well I fell of my chair!
I recall that in last years budget he "punched the air" when cuts to working tax credits were announced.
I benefit from this budget to the full and knowing the impact it has on disabled people left me with a very uncomfortable feeling. I have not yet decided what I am going to do about it on a personal level. My partner is disabled but can't claim any benefits due to my income.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 18 Mar 16 at 22:03
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>>My partner is disabled but can't claim any benefits due to my income.
PIP is non-means tested - can apply for it if you work or not.
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>> PIP is non-means tested - can apply for it if you work or not.
Was just about to point that out myself. Some aspects of ESA are also based on NI conts rather than being income based but the interactions there are quite complex.
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>> Resignation letter suggests issue was Gideon's tanks on his lawn.
>>
>> If that's case then chapeau to him. The disability benefits stuff was a least third
>> time this year I've though what the *uck has that policy announcement to do with
>> HM Treasury.
Good for IDS. I've mostly felt respect for him because he has clearly been trying for years to ensure that benefits go to people who need them without them being a lifestyle choice, which is the only way to make decent benefits affordable and sustainable. That is really difficult, and a long way from solved.
The Treasury's role may be to define the total budget but it is not AFAIK unilaterally to say which departments get what and not to say how they will spend it. Osborne has also anounced the academy plan which seemed rather odd to me.
I'm convinced he's another one with low EQ, or if he does actually have a sense of how others feel then he just doesn't care. Either way, he doesn't look like PM material to me.
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The charity I'm a part of had their first casualty of the changing benefits system yesterday afternoon. The first of many I suspect.
Last summer a lorry driver on his way to work on his motorbike had a car pull out of a side road. Two broken knees, I broken leg, cracked ribs, dislocated shoulder, amputated thumb and half an index finger later, all of which has involved many operations.
He'd been on SSP for 6 months and should have gone on to ESP in late January but apparently, his local benefit office wasn't aware that he now has to make a new application for it.
He hasn't had any money at all from anywhere since the end of January and after going to see them yet again yesterday to plead for a payment of some sort he was told 3rd April would be the earliest he would get any.
He'd been turned away by two food banks as he needed tokens to get any food and had no money in his electric meter.
We managed to check him out and make an emergency payment into his bank within 2 hours but this is a proud man who has worked all his life, and still is employed, who had a no fault accident and should never find himself in this position.
Those who change the system but cannot get it working properly have never been hungry in their life.
Pat
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Sounds as if there should be a substantial personal injury claim there Pat, it's a bit more than whiplash.
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There will be Manatee but that won't feed him in the meantime.
I hope he remembers though and makes a charitable donation when it finally happens....so few do.
Pat
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It's very easy to say we should ensure that benefits and social services are targeted on those in real need - because it's the bleedin' obvious. Trouble is, any large and complex system will have errors and waste. It's the civil servants' job to keep these to a tolerable level, of course, but politicians of both sides who promise that by 'reducing waste' they can deliver improved services without higher taxes - or lower taxes without damaging services - are, and know they are, P***ing in the wind unless they somehow know something that no government before has even thought of looking for.
So if the error is always there, we have a decision to make: where to set the margin for that error. You can err on the side of safety, so that no-one in need misses out. But up pops the Daily Mail with a couple of carefully chosen extreme cases and suddenly we're 'living beyond our means' and it's all the fault of these 'feckless benefit scroungers'. So we go the other way and (try to) make sure no-one gets more than they're entitled to - and people like Pat's injured driver lose out. (Although presumably there are some here who would point to his week in Skegness in 1991 and suggest he should have put away the money it cost for a rainy day.)
I know I've used the word a lot recently but this is the problem with simplistic thinking, otherwise known as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Better to understand that the system is intrinsically and unfixably flawed, but that it's the best we're going to get, and to err on the side of generosity, even if we can't stop a few people playing it for unfair rewards.
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IDS resignation has nothing to do with how he actually feels about benefits payments, and everything to do with IDS making another bid for leadership at the the end of DCs term.
As he was primarily the driver for benefits cuts, this is clearly a demonstration of a what a two faced git he is.
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I don't for a second believe IDS has leadership ambitions. If he does, I have completely misread him because he'd be utterly deluded to think he had any chance at all.
But then, the same could have been said of Corbyn!
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>> I don't for a second believe IDS has leadership ambitions. If he does, I have
>> completely misread him because he'd be utterly deluded to think he had any chance at
>> all.
Deluded is trade mark of certain ports of the party. Look at the next leadership race, Buffoon Bojo and Osborne as contenders? They both think they are electable, no wonder IDS thinks he has a chance.
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I think I'd agree with manatee, i think it's about what he says he's resigning for. I think he had enough last time plus Westminster leaks like a sieve.
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>> I think I'd agree with manatee, i think it's about what he says he's resigning
>> for.
Nope he is a rabid anti "benefits on any level" attack dog. The disabled is a long way down his list of thoughts.
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>> >> I think I'd agree with manatee, i think it's about what he says he's
>> resigning
>> >> for.
>>
>> Nope he is a rabid anti "benefits on any level" attack dog. The disabled is
>> a long way down his list of thoughts.
>>
I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
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>> Nope he is a rabid anti "benefits on any level" attack dog. The disabled is
>> a long way down his list of thoughts.
I agree he supports cuts overall, but that goes back a long time and the rationale is to protect and make sustainable the principle of a welfare state.
You can have a separate debate about whether the premise for that rationale, that without cuts it would have been unaffordable, was correct. I believe it was.
From the BBC news:
Baroness Stroud, who worked with Mr Duncan Smith in government and now heads the Centre for Social Justice think tank, which he founded, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Iain came into government... in order to deliver a social justice agenda, a reform agenda of the welfare state.
"He always used to say to me, 'I'm here in order to deliver reform and to protect the poorest'.
"Yesterday he felt that he could no longer protect the poorest... This is a step too far."
...
Frank Field, who chairs the Commons work and pensions committee, said: "Behind this is a much, much bigger drama of which Iain was the driver... What he crucially cared about was the balance of resources going to families and children and older people.
"The pensioner element, the biggest part of the Budget, was safeguarded and in fact increased.
"And therefore all these cuts were on people of working age and it's this point that Iain thinks the social contract between generations is being broken."
...
In his resignation letter, Mr Duncan Smith said that "because of the perilous public finances we inherited from the last Labour administration, difficult cuts have been necessary".
"I have found some of these cuts easier to justify than others but aware of the economic situation and determined to be a team player I have accepted their necessity.
"You are aware that I believe the cuts would have been even fairer to younger families and people of working age if we had been willing to reduce some of the benefits given to better-off pensioners but I have attempted to work within the constraints that you and the chancellor set."
A bit of spin and self-promotion in IDS's letter no doubt; Frank Field is an odd bod but knows his subject, and IDS, very well.
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Dunkin' Donuts's resignation reasons was (I think) discussed on Any Questions last night, to be repeated at BBC R4 13.10 today and on BBC Radio iPlayer. Certainly the cuts were.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b073bb5h#play
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 19 Mar 16 at 13:07
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>>Dunkin' Donuts's resignation reasons was (I think) discussed on Any Questions last night
Actually I'm not sure about that but it will presumably come up on Any Answers afterwards.
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"IDS resignation has nothing to do with how he actually feels about benefits payments, and everything to do with IDS making another bid for leadership at the the end of DCs term. "
I can't think why he'd want another go at leadership after he didn't prove very good at it first time round. I suspected at the time that his conscience wouldn't allow him to be sufficiently ruthless and thick-skinned.
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Another PoV says he's jumped ahead of being pushed over the Universal Credit shambles.
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Thing is with things like this the journos in the Westminster bubble love it, they can make everything sound like some sort of byzantine like plot.
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>> Better to understand
>> that the system is intrinsically and unfixably flawed, but that it's the best we're going
>> to get, and to err on the side of generosity, even if we can't stop
>> a few people playing it for unfair rewards.
If you don't mind me turning that back on you WdB, I think that is too simplistic. It's only the best you are going to get at the point when you implement it because the equilibrium shifts thereafter.
I completely agree there is always a trade-off and you will have some deadweight with any solution, which it is foolish to think you can eradicate without chucking the baby out - and I agree that is is better that some money misses the target, than that honest people suffer homelessness or starvation.
But as soon as you put that system in place (which we should) the nature of things is that the deadweight will increase substantially over time, like a sort of reverse (or perverse) invisible hand effect that I'm sure Adam Smith must have had a name for - for example -
- an industry grows up around the benefit, the best example being housing benefit, and the beneficiaries of the vast increase in bathwater needed are not the claimants but the landlords, many of whom have targeted HB tenants specifically and "promoted" the benefit.
- the wrong kind of behaviour change. We want the system to incentivise 'good' behaviour change, but that is difficult to achieve. If the safety net for unmarried mothers was the workhouse or the Magdalene laundries, there would clearly be fewer teenage pregnancies than there would be if it conferred an automatic right to a council flat, housing benefit and enough money to live on (for the sake of the example - I don't know whether that is still the case). But who wants the Magdalene laundries back?
- in work benefits must depress wages if you believe that there is such a thing as a market. I won't rehearse Speenhamland again, but if a man (or woman) will only work for £300 a week, he'll work for £250 a week and £50 in benefits, saving the employers £50. Take the benefit away, and one of two things happens - the employers take up the slack, or the job disappears and the man then needs a lot more than £50 in benefits. Not easy to resolve, and not simply a matter of accepting the trade-off which could completely change the shape of the economy - wages should be paid by employers. I wonder whether GO's 'living wage' wheeze is linked to this problem and the proposed cuts in benefits.
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I don't mind at all, Manatee, and your point about the problem of creating perverse incentives is a good one. I don't suppose anyone in the Thatcher cabinet 30 years ago anticipated the ghastly buy-to-let industry that right-to-buy created.
Perhaps that's the point, that we need to address this at two levels: the strategic, long-term concept of what the social security system is for, and the tactical adaptations required to keep or serving the right people in the right way. Sweeping generalisations - "Everyone must have benefits" or "Benefits are only for scroungers" - are no use to anyone.
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Quite. And easier said than done, but it should be. The fact that there are always losers (that is the point) when you shake the bag periodically to reduce the outflow of bathwater means that the government of the day will invariably get a kicking.
How many metaphors can you get in one sentence? Sorry.
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People wouldn't need any benefits if wages where sufficient to pay their way.
Make big companies pay the fair taxes they should pay.The buy to let industrie should have never been allowed to flourish.But if there are not enough houses for people to live in what is the answer?
If governments are not prepared to build houses from our tax payers money nothing will change.It is all very well to own your home but if people can't pay you will create a divided society.
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>> Make big companies pay the fair taxes they should pay.
You can see the direction of travel which is that corporation tax will eventually disappear altogether, or settle at a much lower level than the 17% announced by GO as the target for 2020.
I don't think a Labour, or any, government could do much to change that either.
Companies are far too global now and it's just too easy to decide which bit of the chain is going to make the profit. They can shift value around faster than any international agreements could ever keep up (e.g. Amazon, Starbucks, Google) and every time we squeeze the balloon in one place it will bulge out somewhere else.
The tax regulations are already far too complex and more complexity to plug loopholes just facilitates the next wheeze. HMRC now actually asks on company tax returns whether any tax avoidance schemes are being used! Presumably that is to try and get ahead of the game, as well as to check the validity of the returns.
>>The buy to let industrie should
>> have never been allowed to flourish.But if there are not enough houses for people to
>> live in what is the answer?
Well the shortage, the buy to let explosion, and the price inflation are not unrelated are they.. When a new block goes up in Cambridge where my daughter lives, they are marketed directly at foreign investors and landlords.
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>>Companies are far too global now and it's just too easy to decide which bit of the chain is going >>to make the profit. They can shift value around faster than any international agreements could >>ever keep up (e.g. Amazon, Starbucks, Google) and every time we squeeze the balloon in one >>place it will bulge out somewhere else.
They are and they don't have the pressures that some of their predecessors had - remember ITT, Gateway, Poly Peck, Texaco (resurrected by Chevron) - with low interest rates and govts. that roll over when profits are moved around the world.
Like others before them, I expect several of the large corporations that we see today will no longer exist in 15 to 20 years. I wonder if Amazon will still be here with the losses it has been making?
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>> Like others before them, I expect several of the large corporations that we see today
>> will no longer exist in 15 to 20 years. I wonder if Amazon will still
>> be here with the losses it has been making?
Yes it will, its losses are part of its tax structure. I suspect it will split however, its IT services arm AWS from the Retail business.
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>>The tax regulations are already far too complex
Coincidentally, one of the panellists on Any Questions just said that the Hong Kong tax code is 276 pages, which sounds a lot to me, and the UK's is 21,000 pages. And we think the EU is overly bureaucratic!
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 19 Mar 16 at 13:38
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The BTL movement has got out of control. I was speaking to an estate agent only yesterday who said that almost everything he sells under £300,000 is BTL. He admitted 'the young' are effectively priced out now unless they have significant parental assistance. Those who are lucky enough to get started are taking on colossal debts. This cannot be healthy for the economy.
We must build more council housing, paid for in part from the huge subsidies the BTL market gets.
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>> The BTL movement has got out of control.
The BTL sector is booming because of long running very low (i.e. zero) interest rates.
The average yield for buying and letting is 5% of capital p/a. From that you need to pay tax and management fees and capital gains tax on resale.
Only needs an interest rate on savings of 4% tax free for everyone to leap out of property.
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True - but I don't see that happening. The Govt. will do everything in its power to keep interest rates low as it knows the political damage that was caused during the high interest period of the early 1990s. The fact the country would struggle to pay the interest on its debts might also feature in its mind too.
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>> True - but I don't see that happening. The Govt. will do everything in its
>> power to keep interest rates low as it knows the political damage that was caused
>> during the high interest period of the early 1990s. The fact the country would struggle
>> to pay the interest on its debts might also feature in its mind too.
>>
It is a weird situation.
High inflation leads to high interest rates and high inflation reduces, in real terms, the value of the original loan, so in some terms a Govt. might like high inflation to reduce the true value of the national debt.
Because inflation is low and there are many zombie businesses out there that would likely be loss making with higher interest rates the Govt. has had to use quantitative easing to reduce the true value of its debts and at the same time our personal investments - without the quid pro quo of high interest rates.
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>> Only needs an interest rate on savings of 4% tax free for everyone to leap
>> out of property.
There was plenty of property let while interest rates were far higher than 4%, particularly amongst owners more interested in rising property values than rental income.
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>>owners more interested in rising property values than rental income.
Wouldn't that be most of them? 5% yield in itself can be obtained more easily in the stock market, although with sacrifice to much of the capital growth that can come from investing in property.
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>> 5% yield in itself can be obtained more easily in the stock market, although with sacrifice to much of the capital growth<<
Indeed it can. I've had a little yield from a share ISA bought a couple of years ago, but as for capital growth...
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>> The average yield for buying and letting is 5% of capital p/a. From that you
>> need to pay tax and management fees and capital gains tax on resale.
Today's capital value or value at time of purchase? If you're making 5% of current value on a place bought three years ago then you're probably in the black.
Capital gain only arises on sale and is paid from the gain on capital value after allowances exemptions etc. And didn't Gideon increase those allowances in his budget?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 20 Mar 16 at 10:24
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>>And didn't Gideon increase those allowances in his budget?
For shares, etc, but not property. As far as I am aware.
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Yes residential property is still taxed at the old rate.
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The latest with all this PIP fiasco the Tories are now like rats in a sack killing each other.
One nation the joke of the day.
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I find it hard to believe that IDS has any principles whatsoever, but the great thing about this is that it's stabbed George Osborne so hard in the back his hopes of becoming prime minister are ruined. :-D
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Probably, FF, but the worry about stirring the Tory pond is always what might rise from the slime at the bottom.
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>> Probably, FF, but the worry about stirring the Tory pond is always what might rise
>> from the slime at the bottom.
>>
Would that not be a problem with any political party... or is it just the Tories in your eyes?
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I don't think you'd find a Michael Howard or a Norman Tebbit in Labour, the Lib Dems or the SNP.
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How about a George Galloway or a Cyril Smith?
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Neither was ever a significant influence on his party. It's slimy politics I'm concerned about, not personal repellence.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 10:41
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"It's slimy politics I'm concerned about, not personal repellence."
The Hackney Hippo has it covered on both counts.
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>> I don't think you'd find a Michael Howard or a Norman Tebbit in Labour, the
>> Lib Dems or the SNP.
Tories do seem to feature more than their share of what at some point became known as swivel eyed loons. John Redwood is one example. Locally we have the duo of Peter Bone and Phillip Hollobone and for many years provided a perch for Tony Marlow.
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>> I don't think you'd find a Michael Howard or a Norman Tebbit in Labour, the
>> Lib Dems or the SNP.
>>
Yes, but as difficult as it may seem to you... other people might well see things differently.
Other parties have their politicians that other people really don't like.
It's the way it is.
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The welfare cuts will no longer take place.
The cuts to PIP of £1.3 billion a year are no more.
Somewhere the Government have to find £4.4 billion in a black hole. These cuts will not be carried out from the welfare budget.
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Still waiting for them to rescind the £30pw cut for folks in the ESA Work Related Activity Group Fluffers. Albeit put together before he was Minister, Stephen Crabb's defence of this is stunningly ill-informed.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 19:49
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Why should the poor on welfare face the brunt of the Government cuts.
The rich are doing very well from this Government.
In the Autumn statement last year the government found a surplus of £27 billion.
In the Budget last month there was a deficit of £13 Billion.
As a consequence Government wanted to cut welfare from the poor.
It was welfare cuts rather than rises in taxes from people in work.
A final point is.
We are a rich and successful country, we can afford the welfare state in its entirely.
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>> We are a rich and successful country, we can afford the welfare state in its
>> entirely.
If we were to rely on your contribution, the welfare state would be entirely non existent.
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OK, WP, but the Tories for the time being are the governing party, so any swamp monster that does benefit from this upheaval will have a more immediate effect on the country's wellbeing.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 20:25
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I have no idea whatsoever why Osborne decided to be the man to put forward both the plans for disability benefits being cut and schools being turned into Academies.
Normally I would expect these titbits to come from their respective Ministers.
Sure GO didn't think he'd cover himself with glory cutting disability benefits at the same time as tax cuts?
What a knob.
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"Sure GO didn't think he'd cover himself with glory cutting disability benefits at the same time as tax cuts? What a knob"
About as knobbish as the grinning G Broon when he got rid of the 10% tax band.
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>>About as knobbish as the grinning G Broon when he got rid of the 10% tax band
Tax bands are what the chancellor does though.
Hands up who thinks Osborne will be next leader of the Conservatives.
(and I think Broon hawking our gold reserves was significantly more knobby)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 21 Mar 16 at 20:48
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>> (and I think Broon hawking our gold reserves was significantly more knobby)
Gold had been bumping along the bottom for twenty years or so, selling it in accordance with market rules and investing in other assets made perfect sense.
If of course he'd had advance notice of 9/11 and subsequent uncertainty he have been stupid to sell gold but .........
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>>If of course he'd had advance notice of 9/11 and subsequent uncertainty he have been stupid to sell gold but .......
Yeah - not like he could have postponed or stopped the sale, was it?
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Sure GO didn't think he'd cover himself with glory cutting disability benefits at the same time as tax cuts?
Its perfectly possible he thought that, it's been done plenty of times before and without ids resigning it'd be another one.
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>> Its perfectly possible he thought that, it's been done plenty of times before and without
>> ids resigning it'd be another one.
His problem was not watching the wind changing. Strivers v scroungers/skivers was popular politics until the reality impacted real people voters knew or hit real headlines.
GO wasn't watching the windsock.
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> > His problem was not watching the wind changing. Strivers v scroungers/skivers was popular politics until
>> the reality impacted real people voters knew or hit real headlines.
>>
>> GO wasn't watching the windsock.
>>
I'm not so sure, i think I'd be a done deal without ids resigning.
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Had I been in GO's shoes, my statement three minutes after IDS's resignation would have been.
"Now IDS has resigned from Cabinet, we can reverse the swinging cuts to Disability Benefits he and this department had been forcing on the Treasury"
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> "Now IDS has resigned from Cabinet, we can reverse the swinging cuts to Disability Benefits he and this department had been forcing on the Treasury"
Do you think that would have worked though? I'm not sure many people would have bought a government dept forcing the treasury to do anything it didn't want. Public pressure yes, but internal pressure?
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>> > "Now IDS has resigned from Cabinet, we can reverse the swinging cuts to Disability
>> Benefits he and this department had been forcing on the Treasury"
>>
>> Do you think that would have worked though? I'm not sure many people would have
>> bought a government dept forcing the treasury to do anything it didn't want. Public pressure
>> yes, but internal pressure?
Well its about as believable as IDS claiming his resignation had nothing to do with his Europe Out stance, and everything to do with his caring attitude.
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Well its about as believable as IDS claiming his resignation had nothing to do with his Europe Out stance, and everything to do with his caring attitude.
>>
So it's a no, it wouldn't have worked then?
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"His problem was not watching the wind changing. Strivers v scroungers/skivers was popular politics until the reality impacted real people voters knew or hit real headlines."
Now you're imagining things, Brompt; the British people have always had a sense of fairness and will protest when things go too far. Too many people with genuine needs were being badly affected.
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In the Conservative Party manifesto for the 2015 General Election there was a policy to cut welfare spending by £12 billion.
That welfare spending cut still stands.
These welfare spending cuts announced in the 2016 Budget was for an extra £4.4 billion by 2020.
These cuts of £4.4 billion was not in the Conservative Party manifesto.
The cuts to Personal Independence Payment was cutting into bone not just flesh.
Disabled people are facing cuts they cannot cope with.
Disabled people who are genuine are facing cuts not just "disabled" people that are not genuine.
The attack on disabled people has to stop.
Welfare spending is at a 40 year low.
The government is saving £30 billion a year from the welfare budget.
Please,please please stop the attack on the disabled.
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I haven't bought tEh grauniad for a while, must get a copy tomorrow.
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>>Or to put it in plain English:<<
..but far more to the point by Fluffy.
Pat
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The welfare cuts are real.
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The £12 billion cuts have taken place.
It is the extra £4.4 billion cuts that have been scrapped.
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Why should the poor have to pay for the tax cuts for the rich.
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>> Why should the poor have to pay for the tax cuts for the rich.
Why should the rich pay the benefits for the poor?
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I would rather be rich than poor.
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>> Why should the poor have to pay for the tax cuts for the rich.
>>
To ensure the rich are successful and earn enough to pay sufficient taxes to pay for the poor.
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Whilst some benefits may have go out of hand, the nasty side of the Conservatives was most in evidence when they blamed the poorest people for the budget deficit.
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Well that's the mantra that's been trotted out for decades but I've yet to find any evidence that it's true.
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Income tax is only a small proportion of the total tax take in the public finances.
It is the same excuse from the rich that the rich pay taxes in order to fund the lifestyle of the poor.
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>> Income tax is only a small proportion of the total tax take in the public
>> finances.
>>
>> It is the same excuse from the rich that the rich pay taxes in order
>> to fund the lifestyle of the poor.
Fluffy, income tax is the single largest source of income for the government, over 25%.
I'd lay a bet here, that you contribute very little financially to government spending. I'd lay a bet that your social bank account is overdrawn.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 25 Mar 16 at 21:14
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A Conservative Government has no interest in helping the poor.
They are a political party for the rich and not the poor.
The last person to talk about compassion conservatives was George W Bush.
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>> Fluffy, income tax is the single largest source of income for the government, over 25%.
Or to put it another way 75% of revenue is from sources other than income tax. Which makes the all to common gibe about 'non tax payers' for those outside the income tax net look pretty silly.
Second up in the revenue league table is National Insurance, about 17% of govt income. While Income Tax rates under Chancellors since Howe have been a one way bet NI has become a regressive trap. Work 40hrs/week at min wage and you'll get £268 gross and pay £11 tax but £14 NI.
Meanwhile you and I, both still of working age, pay no NI at all until we top up our final salary pensions by working.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 26 Mar 16 at 16:36
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>> >> Fluffy, income tax is the single largest source of income for the government, over
>> 25%.
>>
>> Or to put it another way 75% of revenue is from sources other than income
>> tax. Which makes the all to common gibe about 'non tax payers' for those outside
>> the income tax net look pretty silly.
And of the the 75% of revenue, it comes from those who go out to work and pay NI, those buy houses, those who get share dividends, IE those who earn the most and spend the most.
I would be a lifetimes contributions that fluster has put eft all in the pot.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 26 Mar 16 at 17:52
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>> And of the the 75% of revenue, it comes from those who go out to
>> work and pay NI, those buy houses, those who get share dividends, IE those who
>> earn the most and spend the most.
Exactly. Without people generating income, there wouldn't be any money to pay for the poor... or anything else like the NHS, police, fire service, teaching, etc.
Encourage those with an entrepreneurial spirit to do more, to do better.... so we can earn more for the country as a whole.
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I believe we should have a flat tax of 15%.
V.A.T should be no more than 5% on all goods and services.
We are getting towards public spending as a % of G.D.P of 30%.
Welfare spending is at a 40 year low.
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>> I believe we should have a flat tax of 15%.
>>
>> V.A.T should be no more than 5% on all goods and services.
>>
>> We are getting towards public spending as a % of G.D.P of 30%.
>>
>> Welfare spending is at a 40 year low.
Fluffy, do tell, what have you contributed to the coffers?
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I pay a lot of value added tax
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What do you contribute to the tax coffers, Zero.
I am curious to know.
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>> What do you contribute to the tax coffers, Zero.
>>
>> I am curious to know.
As I was working for 36 years, and for most of them in the higher tax bracket, and whilst retired still paying tax, having paid rates / community charge call it what you like for 30 years, and have never claimed benefits or the dole I would venture it is considerably more than you. Now having thrown a shed load of money in, and taken not much out, I guess that gives me some right to say how its spent.
Now your credentials on your share of the pot are? Oh yes Value added tax.
So Fluff me ole mate, how the hell do you think you have earned the right to spout about how much money I should put in, and who should get it, when your share of input has been, well diddly squat.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 26 Mar 16 at 21:16
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You are attacking fluffy for his opinion what he believes the tax system should be.
The Royals pay diddly squat and what they pay comes form our tax pay.
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I'm not sure why it's of sudden interest into how much tax people have paid, measuring how far we can pee up the wall next?
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>> I'm not sure why it's of sudden interest into how much tax people have paid,
Its not interest, its entitlement and credibility specially when someone who pays nothing, is constantly and repeatedly whining about where it goes.
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Well I'd say people asking and answering about tax paid each other had paid is a sudden interest. I'm sure everyone here pays/paid tax on some level, there's no requirement of it to have an opinion anyway.
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>> Well I'd say people asking and answering about tax paid each other had paid is
>> a sudden interest. I'm sure everyone here pays/paid tax on some level, there's no requirement
>> of it to have an opinion anyway.
I'm sure someone doesn't, and I think that if you repeatedly push your views about it I would say there is.
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> I'm sure someone doesn't, and I think that if you repeatedly push your views about
>> it I would say there is.
>>
It doesn't bother me but obviously does you so I'll leave you to your personal tax investigations then.
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And I'll leave you to your ability to completely miss the point for effect.
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>> I'm sure everyone here pays/paid tax on some level
I paid tax for a 31 year career, quite a lot in fact.
Trouble was, the State paid my salary in the first place.. then took a bit back again in the form of tax/NI.
I think many people fail to see the concept of private individuals or companies having to be successful enough to generate income... that then pays for all the stuff the State needs to pay for... inc the poor.
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> I think many people fail to see the concept of private individuals or companies having
>> to be successful enough to generate income... that then pays for all the stuff the
>> State needs to pay for... inc the poor.
>>
Some people probably do. I think of it more of a two way thing, in an economy. No one lives in a vacuum, no one can manage things on their own. We need the correct environment for companies and people to work. Think of it as chicken and egg.
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I think many people fail to see the concept of private individuals or companies having to be successful enough to generate income.
We get that, which is why those of us who do earn well shouldn't begrudge the tax we pay. But favouring the top end, as Fluffy's 15% would do, is just trickle-down Reaganomics, which was only ever a pretext for doing what the rich wanted. Tried and failed in the 1980s; it widened inequality and increased all the social and health problems associated with it.
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>> I think many people fail to see the concept of private individuals or companies having
>> to be successful enough to generate income... that then pays for all the stuff the
>> State needs to pay for... inc the poor.
It's labour that generates income, and conversion of resources that should belong equally to all of us. The rest (including every day middle managers, who get clobbered for tax too) just live off the proceeds. That's why it's fair as well as necessary to pay tax to provide infrastructure etc.
From an economic point of view we don't need the old, the halt and the lame. That is simple humanitarianism.
The perfect system of welfare will never be devised. We just have to do the best we can.
One thing I can't explain is why, in a less wealthy period by far, we had seemingly no trouble affording libraries, plenty of policemen, decent bus services, mending holes in the road, all the things that now seem to be so difficult.
The only theory I can come up with is that politicians generally just want to do things, and spend money. They don't start from the point of view of saving it. The war cleared the decks, was followed by a necessary period of fiscal responsibility, and now it has all got out of hand. Analogous to the oft-quoted 'fact' that the post was diet was the best we ever had as a nation.
Jut a bit of pre-breakfast rambling there.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 27 Mar 16 at 09:35
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>> It's labour that generates income, and conversion of resources that should belong equally to all
>> of us. The rest (including every day middle managers, who get clobbered for tax too)
>> just live off the proceeds.
Oh, couldn't agree more.
It's the working man who does the actual labour.
Trouble is, the stress and hassle of running a business is completely different to doing your bit and taking a pay check every week/month, then not having to think about it.... and there needs to be an employer for the working man to have work.
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>> I'm not sure why it's of sudden interest into how much tax people have paid,
>> measuring how far we can pee up the wall next?
>>
My take on what he has posted is:
There are plenty of people out there who have a mindset of entitlement and do not consider it their role to have to 'pay in'.
They allow themselves to believe that the 'rich' should cater for them.
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>> You are attacking fluffy for his opinion what he believes the tax system should be.
Yes when you have contributed nothing, you have not much right to say how much others should pay and who is should be paid to.
>> The Royals pay diddly squat and what they pay comes form our tax pay.
Nothing to do with it, they dont even get to vote.
>>
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 26 Mar 16 at 22:03
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And there's me thinking we were all champions of human rights here... Don't we live in a democracy where everyone has a say anymore?
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>>Don't we live in a democracy where everyone has a say anymore?<<
Only if Zero, Mark, WdeB and Mappy agree to let you!
Pat
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I absolutely believe in and am proud of living in a society where the strong are obliged to support the weak.
But then, we can all think of examples where it seems at least difficult to fully reconcile.
Mine is the case of two boys who grew up next door to each other, identical houses, similar sized families, fathers worked in the same large factory on similar incomes.
The children went to the same schools, had much the same opportunities, one worked hard at school, got himself qualified and went on to get a good job. The other wasted his time, got his girlfriend pregnant while they were teenagers, never worked and ended up on benefits.
In very simple terms his neighbour who made something of his life is paying taxes to subsidise him.
That is the way it has to be I suppose, but it doesn't stop it being at least irritating to me anyway.
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>> I absolutely believe in and am proud of living in a society where the strong
>> are obliged to support the weak.
>>
>> But then, we can all think of examples where it seems at least difficult to
>> fully reconcile.
Your view echoes mine.
There's a balance to be had, somewhere.
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Only if Zero, Mark, WdeB and Mappy agree to let you!
That's a cheap shot, Pat. Inaccurate too. You, WP and others continue to express your views here and no-one's tried to stop you - we just say when we disagree and point it out when you oversimplify. That's the bit that upsets you, so if anyone's tried to curb anyone else's freedom of expression it's been you!
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sun 27 Mar 16 at 08:48
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>>you oversimplify. That's the bit that upsets you, so if anyone's tried to curb anyone else's freedom of expression it's been you! <<
Not at all.
The difference in views comes from the 'bubble' we live in.
There is a majority on here who live in their own very similar type of bubble and agree with each other.
There are a few of us who's bubbles are entirely different, whether it be financial, past experiences of work and life, or even present circumstances.
To accuse anyone with a different view as 'over simplifying' is wrong and what politicians do all the while.
It's why the recent budget ended up as such a shambles.
I's so easy to think our own personal bubble is the majority one, in fact...the only one that exists.
Like it or not there are a lot of people around with the simplistic view.
They're all voters and they all have a choice as well as an opinion.
To dismiss that opinion out of hand is >>>>curb anyone else's freedom of expression it's been you!<<<
Pat
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>> >>Don't we live in a democracy where everyone has a say anymore?<<
>>
>> Only if Zero, Mark, WdeB and Mappy agree to let you!
>>
>> Pat
>>
Get out of it, you know you need your bogey men, your oppressors to kick and fight against
We are doing you a favour really keeping you active and angry.
No need to say thanks.
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Can we talk about the issues.
Tax cuts for the rich welfare cuts for the poor.
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>> Can we talk about the issues.
>>
Fluffy - please see above for some fairly serious discussion which has been taking place while you were away.
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As I wrote at the beginning there is tax cuts for the rich and welfare cuts for the poor.
A political party that proclaims One Nation is playing with fire when it attacks part of our society.
Want there riots one our streets a few years ago.
Look at the beginning of Thatcherism in 1981 when there was riots in Brixton.
I would say this government has to be careful with about 60% of our population.
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>> I would say this government has to be careful with about 60% of our population.
Ah at last I can see you have grasped the fact that 60% of the population is supported by the other 40%
is that fair?
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 27 Mar 16 at 18:45
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If I was in charge I would triple the amount of tax the Royal Family pay.
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If we leave the European Union will taxes go up and welfare spending be more deeply cut.
I do not know.
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A person I know in a wheelchair picked up a pen and as a consequence was told they were fit for work.
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The poor will always be poor wheras the rich will always be rich.
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A successful economy requires entreprenuers that create wealth.
If there is no wealth creation there is no money for our tax and spend economy to grow.
We need wealth creators.
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>> The poor will always be poor wheras the rich will always be rich.
>>
Try telling that to any of the self made millionaires of which there are quite a few
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11251904/Wealth-is-good-and-the-UK-has-lots-of-it.html
According to this article 75% of the UK's ultra wealth individuals are self made
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I have nothing against people who create wealth.
At the moment the top rate of tax is 45%.
I would cut the top rate to 40& and cut the bottom rate of tax to 10%.
I would leave National insurance contributions as they are.
I would reduce top rate corporation tax to 10%.
I would abolish what is left of stamp duty.
I would abolish insurance premium tax.
Every other form of tax I would look at.
I would triple the tax paid by the Royal Family.
I would abolish council tax for homes below £2 million.
Above £2 million I would increase council tax fourfold.
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I'm pretty certain, that, given that Income Tax is such a huge income generator for the government, your reduction of it and of Corporation Tax, and the other reductions you mention, would create a hole much bigger than could be filled by taxation from the royal family and council tax on homes above £2m.
It's not a realistic suggestion.
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>> I would cut the top rate to 40& and cut the bottom rate of tax
>> to 10%.
.
.
.
.
.
>> Above £2 million I would increase council tax fourfold.
Fluffy, could you tell us what the total government income per annum would be based on these changes, and the total government expenditure.
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We have a debt to G.D.P ratio of 83%.
In Japan it is approaching 200%.
Our debt burden is dangerously high.
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>> We have a debt to G.D.P ratio of 83%.
>> In Japan it is approaching 200%.
>>
>> Our debt burden is dangerously high.
>>
It's been alot higher before and we're all still here.
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>>What Fluffy would do
Well that's the deficit sorted.....
On a more realistic note, if you increased Inheritance tax to 100%, and nationalised the assets in all family trusts you might just make ends meet for the country's finances.
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>> On a more realistic note, if you increased Inheritance tax to 100%, and nationalised the
>> assets in all family trusts you might just make ends meet for the country's finances.
Families would of course ensure it was all gone, prior to death (out of the country probably)
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I'm still waiting for a link to a Gruinaud article explaining how 75% of govt. income would keep rolling in if everyone in the private sector suddenly decided they'd rather stay at home and watch Jeremy Kyle all day.
Any help with that Bromp?
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>> everyone in the private sector suddenly decided they'd rather
>> stay at home and watch Jeremy Kyle all day.
Funnily enough, some our work meetings...........
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I'm doing my best Zeddo!
Last edited by: legacylad on Sun 27 Mar 16 at 21:58
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On Saturday you wanted everyone taxed at a flat rate of 15%, now it's this plan. It's OK to admit you haven't a clue how to run the UK's finances; none of us could, either.
But to keep changing your mind just makes you look a bit silly, Fluffy...
...or should I call you...
...George?
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Were near a buy to let bubble in the housing market
Were near a average price of a house above £300 000.
In London it is above £500 000 for an average price of a house.
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Can we have a vol 2 mods? This one is getting a bit big.
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Fluffy relax it is Easter let's talk about Bunnies or what ever my head hurts.
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let's talk about Bunnies or what ever my head hurts.
>>
Fluffy bunnies?
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....no, Fluffy Rabbits................... :-(
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We have the worlds 5th biggest economy. Our unemployment rate at 5.1% is at a decade low.
Our employment rate 74.1% is at the highest level since records began in 1971.
What more do you want me to say.
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>> What more do you want me to say.
>>
Nothing - PLEASE !
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I will say what I think.
Thank you.
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Tell us a bit of your backstory "fluffy" Where do you come from, where do you live, what do you for a living , where did you going your insight into the workings of the economy?
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I went to university and studied economics and politics.
I also read widely like The Economist and The Spectator.
I also use the internet and do a lot of research online.
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>> I went to university and studied economics and politics.
University of Poundland?
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Fellow alumna were you Zero?
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>> Fellow alumna were you Zero?
These moderns halls of learning were before my time, FW Woolworths College, was my old alma mater
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Mar 16 at 15:39
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I prefer to learn on-line. So much quicker and cheaper..
cheaper-than-tuition.com/fake-diplomas/
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>> I will say what I think.
>>
That'll be nothing then.
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The budget of 2016 was simple in its outcome but deadly in its result.
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Why the critisicm what university I went to.
I worked hard to pass my university exams.
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I'm sure you did "Fluffy". We're just jealous of your achievements really. Which particular University was was it and when did you go?
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I went to University of Hull in the early 1990s
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A great thing education eh "Fluffy"? I bet you got a great job with that degree. What do you do for a living?
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>> I went to University of Hull in the early 1990s
So that puts you into your early 40's?
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>> Why the critisicm what university I went to.
>>
>> I worked hard to pass my university exams.
Lets just say that you are not showcasing your educational credentials in the best possible light.
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I enjoy the simple things in life.
I live on my copyright that I have written.
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>> I live on my copyright that I have written.
>>
Great. What sort of stuff. This is fascinating.
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The copyright is my secret.
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Copyrights aren't secret.
That's the point of them.
I still call Asperger's.
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Off the subject of copyrights I would like to talk why the rich pay less tax than the poor in the 2016 Budget.
Surely the bottom 10% should have gained from the 2016 budget and not the top 10%.
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E>> Off the subject of copyrights I would like to talk why the rich pay less
>> tax than the poor in the 2016 Budget.
>>
>> Surely the bottom 10% should have gained from the 2016 budget and not the top
>> 10%.
>>
In economic terms explain why. You have been to university. Let's hear a cogent and informed argument.
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"You have been to university."
Eh? What have I missed
Ah - found it.
Well, knock me down with a feather.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Tue 29 Mar 16 at 23:20
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>> I still call Asperger's.
Brain injury?
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>> Brain injury?
>>
Tempting, but you'll have to offer me a cast-iron alibi and hide the evidence. ;-)
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I can produce 50 witnesses who will swear you were in Coctel Catedral, Barrio Lastarria for the whole evening. Will that do?
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>> I can produce 50 witnesses who will swear you were in Coctel Catedral, Barrio Lastarria
>> for the whole evening. Will that do?
When you fly us out, can you make sure it doesn't clash with my Cuba trip?
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Beats working fluffy work smart not hard.>:)
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>> The copyright is my secret.
>>
How does that work then? What sort of thing have you written that pays you sufficient to live on? Would welcome a hint so I can have a go myself.
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>>
>> >> I live on my copyright that I have written.
>> >>
>>
>> Great. What sort of stuff. This is fascinating.
Well its not on the level of "Adam Smith - An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" I know that much
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What the present Conservative Government is trying to do to the economy and public sector is laudable.
I can condemn what they are doing not what they are trying to do.
To cut public spending as a % of G.D.P is what I would do.
The problem is where to do the cuts. Taxes are not part of real G.D.P.
The deep cuts to welfare spending have already occured. The welfare cuts amount to £30 billion pound a year of cutbacks. That is at present ( and not the future) cutting of welfare spending.
Future cuts to welfare are hitting genuine disabled people.
The cuts to disabled people that are not genuine have already happened.
That is why future cuts to disabled people are causing uproar.
We are approaching welfare spending at a 40 year low.
Also public spending is approaching 30% of real G.D.P.( real G.D.P is all the goods and services that are produced in the economy).
In other words we as a society have to make a decision. Do we want a low welfare low tax economy or not.
If we do, carry on with the welfare and disabled cutbacks.
If not stop complaining.
Thats the decision Iain Duncan Smith knew he had to make.
His decision was to quit the cabinet.
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Have your benefits been cut?
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The last Labour Government introduced tax credits for the working age poor.
Labour also introduced the winter fuel allowance and free license fee for the over 75 years old.
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"The last Labour Government introduced tax credits for the working age poor.
Labour also introduced the winter fuel allowance and free license fee for the over 75 years old."
These words are a reply to ON's post. ("Have your benefits been cut?")
Fluffy, I can't see the connection. What is your point?
Last edited by: Focal Point on Tue 29 Mar 16 at 18:34
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I don't think he has "points".
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What I earn is nobody business other than mine.
Why an interest in where my money comes from.
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You do not "earn" benefits.
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>>Why an interest in where my money comes from.
Because you have many, varied and conflicting opinions about what should happen to other people's money, and to company money, so why shouldn't we take an interest in yours?
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Peoples private finances are non of my business.
I am not asking anybody to talk about private finance.
Thats up to the individual concerned.
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>> Peoples private finances are non of my business.
What apart from the fact you are telling them how much tax they should pay on how much they earn?
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Let's forget about taxes there be plenty of people soon in Wales who be claiming benefits.The way the Steel industrie is going and has gone there won't be much left.
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There are 40 thousand jobs at risk in the U.K. steel industry.
I find a great sadness what is happening in Port Talbot in South Wales.
At this moment steelworkers in Port Talbot do not know if they still have a job.
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With TATA losing £1M a day in the UK what is your solution fluffy?
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If I was Tata Steel I would not sell any part of the U.K.Steel industry they already own.
Eventually the price of steel will go back up. When the price goes above the cost of production the industry will be viable again.
If Tata Steel can hold their nerve ( if they want to sell later on) at least the steel industry can be profitable again when the price of steel goes back up.
Parts of our steel industry are profitable and succssefull at making steel.
I am pro British. If we can save one job then to fight for our steel industry has to be priority.
It is through the Baltic Cargo index that the world price of commodies such as steel are traded.
At the moment the world price of steel is below the cost of production. In China the surplus steel is over 400 million tonnes. That surplus steel is being dumped on world markets.
As a consequence the globally traded market for steel is being held down by market traders that trade on the Baltic Exchange.
As well as the price of steel the price of iron ore is important as well.
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>> Parts of our steel industry are profitable and succssefull at making steel.
So how come TATA are losing £1M a day in the UK?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 30 Mar 16 at 21:10
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I do not know why Tata Steel are losing money.
I agree with you Old Navy, where the losses come from I do not know.
To blame energy prices or the price of steel or the exchange rate is just an excuse to close Port Talbot and lose 15 thousand jobs.
There is a lot of jobs here at stake.
I would not like to be Tata Steel at the moment.
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>> To blame energy prices or the price of steel or the exchange rate is just
All perfectly valid fiscal reasons that contribute to the cost of production and sale of steel product.
>> an excuse to close Port Talbot and lose 15 thousand jobs.
If it was a profitable business, why would you close it?
>> I would not like to be Tata Steel at the moment.
They are not happy bunnies either.
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>> Eventually the price of steel will go back up. When the price goes above the
>> cost of production the industry will be viable again.
When will that be? If its in 18 months time, where do you get the 500million pounds you have lost?
>> If Tata Steel can hold their nerve ( if they want to sell later on)
>> at least the steel industry can be profitable again when the price of steel goes
>> back up.
Its not been profitable int he UK for the last 18 months, Its not profitable in China where its losing 7.8 BILLION dollars a year.
>> Parts of our steel industry are profitable and succssefull at making steel.
No its not.
>> I am pro British. If we can save one job then to fight for our
>> steel industry has to be priority.
>> It is through the Baltic Cargo index that the world price of commodies such as
>> steel are traded.
There is the Baltic Exchange which deals in the cost of shipping dry goods, NOT the price of commodities.
>> At the moment the world price of steel is below the cost of production. In
>> China the surplus steel is over 400 million tonnes. That surplus steel is being dumped
>> on world markets.
It is.
>> As a consequence the globally traded market for steel is being held down by market
>> traders that trade on the Baltic Exchange.
Steel is not traded on the Baltic Exchange.
>> As well as the price of steel the price of iron ore is important as
>> well.
The price of iron ore (of which there is plenty) is dependent on the price of steel. No steel, no-one wants the ore.
>>
>>
>>
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>> If I was Tata Steel I would not sell any part of the U.K.Steel industry
>> they already own.
.
Its very simple Flufster.
1/ You have to decide if you want the country to be a producer of Steel from raw to finished product.
2/ IF you do, In times like these you have offer aid and help, in the from of financial incentives, financial aid, and sales guarantees.
1/ above is NOT mandatory.
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If you believe in a market based economy then it is the market that makes the decision.
If a free market is to operate then no subsidy or public ownership is required.
The reccesion in the early 1980s brought our steel industry to its knees.
I remember watching the news then when factory closures and job losses where occuring every day.
There was a map of the U.K. where all the jobs were being lost.
It was depressing to watch the news.
Even after the reccession ended and our economy began to boom jobs where still being lost on our steel industry.
Why do you think there is fear in Port Talbot.
That complex might close.
The people in Port Talbot know that it was a Conservative Government that privatised the steel industry in the first place.
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Any government support for Port Talbot will of course have to comply with EU rules.
The issue is that the market price for strip steel is lower than the cost of production at Port Talbot. I suspect that would be the case even with more competitive energy costs; the Chinese are also losing money hand over fist.
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>> Any government support for Port Talbot will of course have to comply with EU rules.
>>
Have to say, the EU are not making a good job of this. Chinese steel is being dumped at well below cost, all over the world, including Europe, most of Europe's steel makers are on their knees, and yet they have not put barriers or tariffs on steel imports.
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>> >> Any government support for Port Talbot will of course have to comply with EU
>> rules.
>> >>
>>
>> Have to say, the EU are not making a good job of this. Chinese steel
>> is being dumped at well below cost, all over the world, including Europe, most of
>> Europe's steel makers are on their knees, and yet they have not put barriers or
>> tariffs on steel imports.
>>
In the meantime, the USA - a sovereign nation - has whacked on tariffs of around 235% on imported steel.
They are not worried about a Chinese backlash - maybe that has summat to do with their current near self self-sufficient status in energy.
Last edited by: Roger. on Thu 31 Mar 16 at 12:05
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>> In the meantime, the USA - a sovereign nation - has whacked on tariffs of
>> around 235% on imported steel.
What has been the position of the UK government over any proposal for an EU tariff on Chinese Steel ?
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>> What has been the position of the UK government over any proposal for an EU
>> tariff on Chinese Steel ?
>>
Disgraceful.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 31 Mar 16 at 13:59
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You support the EU's position over the independent, democratic British Government's, Roger? Am I reading that right?
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>> You support the EU's position over the independent, democratic British Government's, Roger? Am I reading
>> that right?
>>
This steel business is a good example of how being in the EU stifles native democracy.
How, you may ask?
It seems to be a very widely held view that the UK Government is under a serious obligation to the Chinese as a quid pro quo for Chinese investment, in the UK, particularly in a certain large energy project. (Why THAT is necessary is a whole contentious subject by itself)
So – how to please the Chinese who are groaning under a huge overproduction of steel?
Answer – cobble together a few like minded countries within the EU to veto an increase in steel import duties to derisory levels, knowing full well that (a) The UK slavishly obeys all EU diktats, (b) the EU makes a convenient whipping boy and (c) THIS WILL NOT BE DEBATED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, thus denying the House a proper debate and probably more importantly, denying the British public news about the back-door action to placate the Chinese.
Imagine the brown stuff hitting the fan if, in an independent Britain, such an idea of keeping import duties very low purely to keep a foreign investor sweet, at the expense of thousands of British jobs, was fully in the light of day. (Who reads or reports much on EU committee stitch-ups?)
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>> Imagine the brown stuff hitting the fan if, in an independent Britain, such an idea
>> of keeping import duties very low purely to keep a foreign investor sweet, at the
>> expense of thousands of British jobs, was fully in the light of day. (Who reads
>> or reports much on EU committee stitch-ups?)
I don't for a minute imagine, even if it is about placating the Chinese vis a vis Hinkley Point, it would be actually put in those terms. Ministers would talk in general about free trade, competition and cost to customers. Just the same as other industries including strategic stuff like coal and capacity to build ships and aeroplanes. Crocodile tears for the workers and some sums of money that look big in the media promised for 'development' in the affected area.
Any vote in the commons would be at a time of the government's choosing and on a three line whip. It would have been months ago, before Redcar never mind now while the issue is in the news.
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>The reccesion in the early 1980s brought our steel industry to its knees.
Some of your naive witterings have been faintly amusing fluffer but this one takes the biscuit.
British Steel was brought to it's knees because it was a perfect example of the inefficient, overmanned, nationalised industries of the 70s who thought that the taxpayer would always pick up the tab. Just like British Coal and British Leyland.
Does University of Hull give refunds?
Just a thought.
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It was Ian MacGregor appointed by Margaret Thatcher that destroyed the British steel industry.
As chairman of British Steel he cut thousands of steel jobs to make the steel industry more profitable.
He was a butcher that did the Conservatives dirty work.
It was not until 1988 that British Steel was privatised.
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>> It was Ian MacGregor appointed by Margaret Thatcher that destroyed the British steel industry.
>> As chairman of British Steel he cut thousands of steel jobs to make the steel
>> industry more profitable.
>> He was a butcher that did the Conservatives dirty work.
Why is making an industry profitable "destroying" and "butchery"?
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Mining,Shipbuilding, to name a few all went down the pan.
I remember Verolme big shipbuilders who lost out to the Japanese.It is a sign of the times very difficult to save the steeljobs.
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>>He was a butcher that did the Conservatives dirty work.
In 3 or 4 years, British Steel went from 150,000 workers losing £2bn per year, to 70,000 workers losing £0.2bn per year.
And you studied economics?
I've said before and I'll say it again - the most economically retarded people I have met have been economists.
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We have lost our coal mining industry, our ship building industry and we are about to extinct our steel industry as well.
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Tin mining, windmills and wooden cart manufacture aren't doing so well either.
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And don't talk to me about the eel catchers and clay pipe makers. Brosely has never been the same since the pipe works shut down.
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And yet there still seem to be 30 manufacturers of caravans in the UK. Which presumably is good news for makers of china dogs and chintz curtains.
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The Port Talbot steel job loses are a drop in the ocean when you consider the national job losses.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34193720
My S in Law has laid off half of his staff and the rest are on a three day week. (Oil related)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 31 Mar 16 at 21:19
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I don't think you can really compare the twins two. They're both a too different.
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Lucky Scotland voted against independence.
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>> Lucky Scotland voted against independence.
>>
I agree, but there are still nutters who think Scotland is viable on its own. Fortunately the politicians are fighting like cats in a sack over the new powers that have been devolved and the penny has dropped big time that the buck stops with them if it goes pear shaped.
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"We have lost our coal mining industry, our ship building industry and we are about to extinct [*] our steel industry as well."
This comment seems to have no link to Lygonos's post, to which it is a reply.
*Did they really allow that sort of thing to be written at Hull?
Last edited by: Focal Point on Thu 31 Mar 16 at 21:24
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It will be sad day if the steel plants close down.Not much else in Wales is there?
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There will be a lot of Haulage firms who will go out of business because of it.
Pat
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>>Not much else in Wales is there?
Oil ... Just purchased 5 litres of Total Quartz 5w30 on eBay and, tis being dispatched from Port Talbot.
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Regarding the Port Talbot steel works these steel workers must be wondering whether they are going to have a long term future.
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>> Regarding the Port Talbot steel works these steel workers must be wondering whether they are
>> going to have a long term future.
Yup. Whats your solution?
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I do not know as a country how these Port Talbot steel workers are going to still have a job.
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That's an easy one, the same way the 65 odd thousand oil workers.
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The Business Secretary said today that imposing tariff barriers against imported Chine steel is not the solution to the problem.
All tariffs will do is raise the prices of steel to companies that consume a lot of steel products.
The Chancellor today said the same about imposing tariff barriers.
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Elsewhere it's reported that China has whacked on huge tariffs on certain types of steel!
Adding insult to injury.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/01/tata-steel-sajid-javid-to-tell-port-talbot-workers-government-on/
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The Chinese want to put a 46% tariff on high tech steel made in Newport South Wales.
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>> The Chinese want to put a 46% tariff on high tech steel made in Newport
>> South Wales.
Fuller explanation here:
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/01/chinese-imposes-tariff-on-eu-steel-imports-tata
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That could well be a very stupid move by the Chinese. Kicking UK gov in the nuts like that, at the time they are vetoing EU attempts to throw a huge tarrif on Chinese steel, is making their anti interventionist stance untenable, and pushing them closer to direct aid for UK steel.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 1 Apr 16 at 21:23
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Why the Chinese want a trade war I do not know.
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According to the Daily Telegraph Greybull Capital are going to buy the Scunthorpe steel complex from Tata Steel.
They want the name of Tata Steel to go back to British Steel for the Scunthorpe steelworks.
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>> I do not know as a country how these Port Talbot steel workers are going
>> to still have a job.
>>
That's because you're not a country. You're halfway there though. ;-)
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It will be a sad day if them Port Talbot steel workers do lose there jobs.
China exports 500 million tonnes of steel on an annual basis.
The U.K. make only 11 million tonnes of steel in totality on an annual basis.
Even Japan make over 110 million tonnes of steel on an annual basis.
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>> It will be a sad day if them Port Talbot steel workers do lose there
>> jobs.
Fluff, I am sure the workers at Port Talbot are cheered and delighted at your continuous stream of platitudes and sympathy
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What is wrong in showing sympathy to our steel workers.
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nothing, but once in one thread is sufficient, unless you have something new that may resolve the situation.
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Some cash would be more useful. Donate your lucrative copyright.
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The Guardian view on culpability for current crisis and way forward:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-steel-crisis-port-talbot-matters-more-than-china
Too much dependence on Chinese cash and free market dogma....
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China has become a large trading partner for the U.K.
We need Chinese money to plug our current account deficit.
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The present Government wants the City of London to be a global hub for the Chinese currency.
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"The present Government wants the City of London to be a global hub for the Chinese currency."
Does it?
And why exactly are you making this point? Does it have something to do with the topic?
Does it have something to do with what another poster wrote?
I'm finding it really hard to follow your line of reasoning, Fluffo.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 20:32
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>> "The present Government wants the City of London to be a global hub for the
>> Chinese currency."
>>
>> Does it?
>>
No. The fluff has misunderstood something. The west does not want hong kong or shanghai to be a major trading centre for currency or commodities. (for obvious reasons). Its not the same thing he said at all.
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I am not clever enough to be able to make a reasoned point of view about China.
I read the same as any other forum poster.
We have become to dependent on Chinese made goods to make a honest opinion.
Them containers that are on those huge container ships that sail to Europe are stacked full of Chinese made goods.
Ports such as London Gateway or Port of Felixtowe load and unload vast amount of containers originated from China.
What I am trying to say is we live in a globalised world where goods and services are traded 24 hours a day.
The steel workers in Port Talbot are but a bit part of the globalised world we live in.
We are beginning to judge these steel workers economically and not through a human reason.
Those steel workers have mortgages to pay, to put food on the table, maybe a treat to Mcdonaids, an annual summer holiday for all the family.
Tell Tata Steel that when they threaten to close Port Talbot.
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>> I am not clever enough to be able to make a reasoned point of view
>> about China.
>>
So why are you trying to confuse the users of this forum?
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>> So why are you trying to confuse the users of this forum?
For fun, I guess :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Apr 16 at 21:24
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Would we be so badly off if less ws imported from China itself ? (Not Taiwan)
AFAICS most of it is cheap and tacky plastic toys!
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£38 billion in a year is an awful lot of plastic toys
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I think what fluffy is trying to say those steelworkers are collateral damage.Yankee expression.
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>> Would we be so badly off if less ws imported from China itself ? (Not
>> Taiwan)
>> AFAICS most of it is cheap and tacky plastic toys!
e.g. iPhones?
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>> Would we be so badly off if less ws imported from China itself ? (Not
>> Taiwan)
>> AFAICS most of it is cheap and tacky plastic toys!
>>
Rodge. I think I owe you an apology. I had thought you were stuck in the 1950s. Evidently you've moved on to the 1970s.
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I think he is trying to explain himself which for some people is not always easy.He has been called a retard and some mental illness I don't follow.By a doctor on this forum who should know better.
Hyde Lygonos?
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I do believe in a low tax economy as long as the low taxes do not damage people on welfare.
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The present Government talk about a high wage, low tax, low welfare economy.
Is the Government correct what they are advocating.
Does that mean tax cuts for the rich, welfare cuts for the poor.
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I think all taxes should be reduced by 75% and all benefits should be limited to £50 per week and time limited to three months.
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"all benefits should be limited to £50 per week and time limited to three months."
Yes that would work - you are including unfunded service pensions aren't you?
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All taxes should be cut to nothing, all benefits should be cut to nothing and all state services should be PAYG
If you need the police, or want the army to invade somewhere, you'll need your credit card number.
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"Does that mean tax cuts for the rich, welfare cuts for the poor."
Oh dear. The lengthy discussion above doesn't seem to have helped you much, does it, Fluffo?
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>>He has been called a retard ... by a doctor on this forum who should know better.
I didn't call anyone a retard. I remarked that the people I know with the worst grasp of economics ("ecomically retarded") are economists.
The fact that someone alludes to having an economics degree from Hull, and comes out with lines such as "I do believe in a low tax economy as long as the low taxes do not damage people on welfare.", and "he cut thousands of steel jobs to make the steel industry more profitable - He was a butcher that did the Conservatives dirty work." reaffirms my view.
>>and some mental illness I don't follow.
I've twice suggested (perhaps tongue-in-cheek, perhaps not) that the presentation of Fluffy's 'debating' (his word, not mine) - is consistent with someone who struggles to present and refute argument.
He has not actually debated in any of his posts, simply making glib statements or posting lazy questions - once or twice he has expanded a viewpoint to perhaps 5 lines or so).
Asperger's is not a mental illness as such, it's a developmental disorder - from wiki - "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and differs from other disorders by relatively normal language and intelligence. Although not required for diagnosis ... unusual use of language is common".
I'm not offering a diagnosis, just an observation within the usual limitations of an internet forum where by definition the users are more likely to focus on a narrow range of interests and have an unusual use of language (at least compared to a typical conversation).
Maybe Fluffy has an IQ of 180 and is the CEO if a Footsie Blue Chip company in the real world.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 3 Apr 16 at 17:50
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I do not understand the argument that has been put against me.
Are other forum members saying that what I say is fairly normal or not.
I need some advice on this.
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>>I need some advice on this.
Certainly. See what you are? Try not to be.
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>> Asperger's is not a mental illness as such, it's a developmental disorder - from wiki
>> - "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, along with restricted and
>> repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and differs
>> from other disorders by relatively normal language and intelligence. Although not required for diagnosis ...
>> unusual use of language is common".
I tend to think that we on here are all somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum.
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Are you Zero trying to say that it is not just me that has a strong intellectual opinion.
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>>Are you Zero trying to say that it is not just me that has a strong intellectual opinion.
Fixed it for you.
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We live in a democracy where we are entitled to have an opinion.
Part of that democracy is that we can vote for our political representatives.
The other part is that we can write or speak the way we want.
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>> We live in a democracy where we are entitled to have an opinion.
>>
>> Part of that democracy is that we can vote for our political representatives.
>>
>> The other part is that we can write or speak the way we want.
That, in these days of political correctness and "thought crime", is not true.
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The other part is that we can write or speak the way we want.
>> That, in these days of political correctness and "thought crime", is not true.
>>
Who specifically do feel stops you from writing or speaking the way you want?
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I respect peoples point of view.
I do have a strong intellectual opinion.
The point is I do not mean to upset anybody who have a different point of view.
All I am trying to do is justify my own opinion.
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>>I do have a strong intellectual opinion
Why do you keep it hidden?
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>> >>I do have a strong intellectual opinion
>>
>> Why do you keep it hidden?
He is drip feeding you.
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>> I never thought I did.
Buried, I'd say. Very, very deeply buried.
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>> Are you Zero trying to say that it is not just me that has a
>> strong intellectual opinion.
>>
No.
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>>I tend to think that we on here are all somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum.
Defo ... I'm most definitely 'high functioning'.
(*_*)
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We all have Motoring OCD of some sort, even if it is only battery charger denial. :-)
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>> We all have Motoring OCD of some sort, even if it is only battery charger
>> denial. :-)
>>
The belts, the belts. Esmeralda.
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Mrs A reckons all men would register somewhere on the autism scale if we were all analysed.
I refrain from giving voice to my opinion of all women in reciprocation, however. As evidenced by my intact and still functioning (probably) reproductive gear.
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The steel works in Port Talbot might be saved.
Lets hope so.
There are 15 thousand jobs in total at risk.
The total steel industry employs about 25 thousand jobs.
That is a lot of jobs to lose in one go.
Tata Steel said that their British steel assets are worth nothing.
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>> Tata Steel said that their British steel assets are worth nothing.
Tata have said they are prepared to write them down, i.e. take a hit for the capital value onto their books as a loss. That is not "they are worth nothing"
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 4 Apr 16 at 17:56
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I am a bit confused what Tata Steel are trying to do.
If they are willing to write down the steel assets will Tata Steel sell their British steel complexes at a loss.
Tata paid £6.2 billion for the then Corus Industries.
Will that £6.2 billion be written off.
I need advice what the thought is.
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>> I am a bit confused what Tata Steel are trying to do.
>>
>> If they are willing to write down the steel assets will Tata Steel sell their
>> British steel complexes at a loss.
Of course they will
>> Tata paid £6.2 billion for the then Corus Industries.
>> Will that £6.2 billion be written off.
yes, along with the investment they have put in, and the operational losses for the last two years.
When they unions say "they want a responsible employer" they mean "throw more good money after the bad"
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To take on our steel industry at this unprofitable time is a huge gamble.
Our steel industry needs billions and billions of pounds of investments.
Who would be willing to invest that vast sums of money in our steel industry.
To me our steel industry might be on its last legs.
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>I am a bit confused what Tata Steel are trying to do.
...
>I need advice what the thought is.
I've said this before but I think it's worth repeating.
My thought is that you really, really need to check if Hull Uni makes refunds.
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Equally the book value is not a real value either.
Investors tend to value businesses on the NPV of future net cash flows using the weighted average cost of the capital required.
On that basis the Port Talbot business is worth nothing because it cannot generate any net cash on any reasonable forecast.
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Surely the physical assets at the Port Talbot steelworks are worth at least book value.
There must be some way to generate cash by sweating the physical assets.
Try explaining to those suffering steel workers that there jobs could be lost or that the pensions they would collect are less than they thought.
To a steelworker book value or generating cash is nothing but a sick joke.
Those steelworkers need to know they can pay the mortgage and pay the bills that come in.
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>> Surely the physical assets at the Port Talbot steelworks are worth at least book value.
No. Its a steel works. Its an old technology steel works. Its only fit for making steel the old way. There is no money to be made making steel the old way.
>> There must be some way to generate cash by sweating the physical assets.
>> Try explaining to those suffering steel workers that there jobs could be lost or that
>> the pensions they would collect are less than they thought.
>> To a steelworker book value or generating cash is nothing but a sick joke.
>> Those steelworkers need to know they can pay the mortgage and pay the bills that
>> come in.
Fluff stop whining aout the poor steel workers. You are providing nothing to them, nothing to the thread and nothing to us.
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>> Fluff stop whining aout the poor steel workers. You are providing nothing to them, nothing
>> to the thread and nothing to us.
>>
Fluff, you could tell us your solution to the oil price crash and how to resolve the problem of the tens of thousands of oil related jobs lost.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 4 Apr 16 at 20:24
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My solution is to have a barrel of oil at $150 a barrel.
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>> My solution is to have a barrel of oil at $150 a barrel.
>>
So the Saudis can have more money to fund Jihad?
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No its to pay for our defence industry.
We need the jobs.
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Make it $300 and resolve world poverty.
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I am learning some hard truths.
I thought people had sympathy for the steelworkers that are losing their jobs.
Obviously not.
I might as well keep my views to myself.
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"I thought people had sympathy for the steelworkers that are losing their jobs."
Maybe some of us do, but if you feel that way, you need to impress us more with the discussion and arguing skills you must have learned at Hull University. You studied Economics and Politics and there is plenty to be said by someone who knows about these things. You must have had some practice at discussion?
But we haven't seen it from you yet. You do know about Economics and Politics, right?
Come on, Fluffo, impress us!
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Thanks Focal Point for your point of view about me.
I have a learnt a lot while I was at University.
But I wanted to make a discussion about a tidy subject.
The tax cuts for the rich is what I think.
The middle classes are paying huge amount of tax to keep the top 0.1% happy.
Look at the leak today about the tax havens in Panama
One group of people I think who should pay up are the Russian Oligarths.
At the last count there were at least 10 oligarths that are billionaires living in the U.K.
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....if I were you, I'd take a little time out and move my millions back on-shore.
;-)
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>> I might as well keep my views to myself.
Finally we agree on something.
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>> I am learning some hard truths.
>> I thought people had sympathy for the steelworkers that are losing their jobs.
>>
>> Obviously not.
Wherever did you get that idea? I am totally sympathetic, it isn't their fault that their employer is unviable.
As for "book value" and "generating cash" being a sick joke to the steelworkers...if the plant can't generate cash, how can it pay their wages? If you could buy it for £1, how would you pay their wages when your costs are £1m a day more than the value of the steel you can produce?
There will no doubt be some scrap value in the plant, but the net of the costly demolition process is unlikely to leave much if any of that.
I wonder who owns the land, and what value it might have. Meadowhall was built on the site of a former steelworks.
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What you are trying to say is that there is no point in trying to save an industry that is globally uncompetative.
We might as well invest in good and services that make a tidy profit.
In other words our steel industry is going the same way as our deep mine coal industry.
No matter what the politicians say there is no future in steelmaking in the U.K.
I agree as well. There may be 5 thousand jobs created in a giant retail park that use to be the Port Talbot steelworks.
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>> What you are trying to say is that there is no point in trying to
>> save an industry that is globally uncompetative.
correct
>> We might as well invest in good and services that make a tidy profit.
correct
>> In other words our steel industry is going the same way as our deep mine
>> coal industry.
Very likely.
>> No matter what the politicians say there is no future in steelmaking in the U.K.
probably not in its current form
>> I agree as well. There may be 5 thousand jobs created in a giant retail
>> park that use to be the Port Talbot steelworks.
The economy, locally and nationally will accept and cope, just as it has with the loss of 1 million mining jobs, 250,000 railway jobs, 75,000 shipbuilding jobs, 20,000 dockers jobs,
Its called change. Coping, embracing and living with change is vital for any thriving society. On the whole we, as a country have managed change quite well.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 4 Apr 16 at 21:23
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Can you tell me what the future jobs will look like.
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>> Can you tell me what the future jobs will look like.
Imagine, work it out.
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>> On the whole we, as a country have managed change quite well.
>>
....well for the sake of debate, I'm going to challenge that as a generalisation, and very much an older, middle-class, South Eastern view as well.
Parts of the country have managed change passably; other parts (and in the context of this debate that is largely but not exclusively the former cradles of the heavy industries), have been dealt a p***-poor hand, and have managed considerably less than adequately.
Prosperity has been sucked away from them, vast areas are run-down shells of their former selves, and, through little fault of their own, (most of) the residents have no prospects of bettering themselves. Past mining and steel working areas most certainly haven't coped with the loss of millions of jobs (I grew up in an area that was a cradle of both industries, and consider myself qualified to comment on the changes).
Successive Governments' policies have paid scant regard to the impact of lack of gainful and rewarding employment for that large portion of the population that isn't, and never will be, qualified for the High-Tech or Financial Services Sectors.
And we then wonder about the growth of the "Benefits Culture", the onset of which was postponed somewhat by lucrative redundancy payments to the last generation of heavy industry workers, but hasn't flowed through to the next generation.
There is a certain irony in a Government that vetoed the EU implementation of tariffs on Chinese steel panicking about the (political) impact of the closure of the UK steel industry, not least since the Chinese have this week slapped their own tariffs on high-quality steel (about the only type we export to them) as a protectionist measure.
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>> Prosperity has been sucked away from them, vast areas are run-down shells of their former
>> selves, and, through little fault of their own, (most of) the residents have no prospects
>> of bettering themselves. Past mining and steel working areas most certainly haven't coped with the
>> loss of millions of jobs (I grew up in an area that was a cradle
>> of both industries, and consider myself qualified to comment on the changes).
There is no doubt that it was painful in the areas you mention. There is no doubt rehabilitation and change has been protracted, a generation has been damaged, but by and large, you do those areas, and the near future generations a disservice.
I have traveled and worked extensively in the UK since the end of the miners strike. One only has to look at the resurgence of Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and the like in the last 5 years to see that there is a future, a different future for sure, a shift in demographics, but a future.
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....I grew up in one of the areas you mention; I currently live in the vicinity of what was, until very very recently, one of the last deep mines in the country.
I have first-hand experience of the decline.
The local youth where I grew up had the prospect of hard and dirty, but well-paid work with some local "standing"; casting ingots, making crankshafts, digging coal, etc. with a real sense of achievement and community, and an element of prosperity.
The local youth here can now look forward to a life of towel-folding in Center Parcs, at minimum wage. If they have any sense of adventure and travel, it's a Call-Centre or the Services (though there's even less of either of those now).
Of course, some can, and do try to "better" themselves through education and/or relocation, but that really isn't an option for the great majority like the people I grew up with, who I still count as my friends, and who were suited to, and took, local heavy industrial jobs.
Manchester and Leeds always had fairly large service sectors, and have built somewhat on that, Sheffield, which I know well, is considerably slower and less successful at reinventing itself (and the steel crisis will hit the area yet again). They certainly aren't yet quite the Northern Poorhouse Powerhouse Gideon (and apparently you) would like to maintain.
I've used the example of Worksop before - I suggest you visit on a wet Friday lunchtime - attractive and affluent it ain't. There are many more previously thriving communities just the same.
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>
>> The local youth where I grew up had the prospect of hard and dirty, but
>> well-paid work with some local "standing"; casting ingots, making crankshafts, digging coal, etc. with a
>> real sense of achievement and community, and an element of prosperity.
They never had the longterm prospect of digging coal, it was always in decline in your and my lifetime, and before that. I have no doubt that communities have been uprooted, but there are many many parallels of similar in preceding decades and centuries. You, and in truth I, are products of a work lifestyle that has ceased to exist. The job for life, the same job for life, the long term career, the fat pension, are long long gone. Flexibility and mobility and the keywords of work today. You and I and your friends are not the future.
>> I've used the example of Worksop before - I suggest you visit on a wet
>> Friday lunchtime - attractive and affluent it ain't.
In truth, it never was.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 4 Apr 16 at 23:24
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...so, your argument has now changed from "On the whole we, as a country have managed change quite well", to "Get over it, change for the worse was inevitable" ;-)
Well, I still disagree with the original premise, and I don't see anything in your arguments that would lead anyone to be convinced otherwise (in fact, some of what you've stated rather conflicts with your argument).
I don't disagree with your analysis that change is inevitable (though some of the content is specious), my argument was that the "coping strategies" from successive Governments were deficient. I lay the majority of the blame on the Thatcherite government and its manufacturing vs services stance, though in clear recognition of the fact that the run-down in mining probably started in the Wilson Government years (albeit in a much more community-friendly manner).
Comparisons with Germany, for instance, show that they have largely managed to handle employment demand by growing the services sector. At the same time, however, they have managed to maintain (in fact slightly grow) the numbers employed in manufacturing.
...but don't ask me what the answer is: As far as I'm concerned, with the missed opportunities, it's a matter of "If you're going there, you shouldn't be starting from here!"
>> In truth, it never was.
>>
...well, in the face of such a well-thought out, thoroughly-researched and firmly-evidenced statement, how could I disagree ;-)
(...though I do. With considerably higher levels of disposable income than now, and the attractive surroundings of the Dukeries; 25 years ago, Worksop was an affluent and pleasant place indeed)
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>> ...so, your argument has now changed from "On the whole we, as a country have
>> managed change quite well", to "Get over it, change for the worse was inevitable" ;-)
>> ...well, in the face of such a well-thought out, thoroughly-researched and firmly-evidenced statement, how could
>> I disagree ;-)
Ah I see, the snidy sarcasm argument. I'll leave you to it.
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>> Flexibility and mobility and the keywords of work today. You
>> and I and your friends are not the future.
You mean the sort of flexibility that defines people who, on a proper legal construction are employees entitled to paid sick and holidays, as self employed contractors?:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/05/self-employed-freedom-underpaid-contractors
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>> You mean the sort of flexibility that defines people who, on a proper legal construction
>> are employees entitled to paid sick and holidays, as self employed contractors?:
As opposed to the inflexibility of the British Leyland workers you mean?
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>> As opposed to the inflexibility of the British Leyland workers you mean?
Ah I see, the snidy sarcasm argument. I'll leave you to it. :-)
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>> >> As opposed to the inflexibility of the British Leyland workers you mean?
>>
>> Ah I see, the snidy sarcasm argument. I'll leave you to it. :-)
No a practical example of workforce inflexibility. Nothing snidy or sarcastic about it, the fact speak for themselves.
Oh did you know the journo that wrote the article is self employed?
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The British Leyland workers were indeed dire. Truly dire. Sadly so were the management.
Neither have any reason to be proud.
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Like it or not ( and no I don't like it much ) we do have a crisis looming, by the very nature of the industry I work in traditionally many of its participants are self employed.
The vast majority of them who are of my generation ( mid to late 50s ) and a bit younger have no idea how they will manage in retirement.
Some have been paying into personal pensions, but the projections for those are in the main pitiful. Many who have endured the financial collapse since 2008 have hung on by the skin of their teeth and had to sell any pensions or other investments to support their businesses ( and in doing so keep others in employment ) or face going under.
There are signs of a returning stability at least but no comparison can reasonably be made with how things were pre 2008.
However, what we are now left with is a huge proportion of the workforce in my industry with no long term security and not enough working years left to rectify that.
It's a worry for sure.
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Can't disagree Humph but I do think there is still a large proportion of ordinary working people who have made lifestyle decisions which have involved increasing expenditure and expectation which fuels some of the demand which their pension provision cannot meet.
I mean things like a new car every few years, up-trading in the housing market, latest TVs and technology, exotic foreign holidays, private education and even more simple things like expensive-to-run coffee machines, unnecessary conservatories etc etc. People have aspired to levels which their regular income may sustain (albeit with use of credit) but leaving them little scope for saving for for their future. Stuff which, back in the "old days", "ordinary people" wouldn't have any expectation of.
Not everyone, I hasten to add...
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>> Not everyone, I hasten to add...
Glad you said that., I have only committed the coffee machine sin.
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My wife bought me a coffee machine a couple of years ago. Looks a bit like a metal penguin and takes little cartridges of coffee. It's ok I suppose. Hardly ever use it to be honest. Still using a cafetière if feeling like real coffee.
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"I have only committed the coffee machine sin."
You live in Surrair and have no conservatory? How plebeian.
Coffee machine? A venial sin only. If you're going to sin, do it in style. I'm sure AC would agree.
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>> "I have only committed the coffee machine sin."
>>
>> You live in Surrair and have no conservatory? How plebeian.
I do yes, It was part of the house when I bought it. So I didn't commit that sin, the previous owner did.
>> Coffee machine? A venial sin only. If you're going to sin, do it in style.
>> I'm sure AC would agree.
I think I have sufficient sin points in most of the other more interesting and exciting departments to ensure that I dont have the key code to heavens gate tumbler.
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>> No matter what the politicians say there is no future in steelmaking in the U.K.
>
>probably not in its current form
Without massive Government subsidy there is no future in steelmaking in China either.
The price that people are prepared to pay to include steel in their lives is not sufficient to fund the workers, the facilities and the process.
Subsidise it, pay the workers less, use less workers, don't make steel. Them's the choices.
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If steel is unprofitable to make even in China who will make steel.
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>> If steel is unprofitable to make even in China who will make steel.
The ones who are left when some of the others have given up and/or demand has increased and the price is higher.
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How long will that take.
By the time the price of steel goes up there might be no steel mills left to keep hot.
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>> If steel is unprofitable to make even in China who will make steel.
>
>The ones who are left when some of the others have given up and/or demand has increased >and the price is higher.
Ultimately the supply, the demand, the cost of supply and the price will all balance nicely - albeit that can be at zero.
Unless a Government, of *any* persuasion, interferes. Pay subsidies, then you will artificially increase supply, decreasing price, and making even more steelworks unprofitable and the existing unprofitable even more so, thus requiring more subsidies, etc. etc.
Until eventually someone either bites the bullet or finally realises they can no longer afford the subsidies, then a few go bust, supply drops, price increases, the remainder become profitable.
Until demand drops. Or wages increase. Or large companies dramatically increase profits/prices. Or something else throws it out of balance again.
All economies will naturally balance. We spoil it by artificially messing with supply, demand, price, costs or some other factor, usually because the interferer's political belief system makes him believe it should be different.
All Governments intefere. All Governments are rubbish at it. The electorate doesn't believe in the laws of physics or consequences.
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If most of the Chinese steel industry stops being subsidised then our steel industry might just be viable.
The same is happening in the oil industry.
The price of petrol has risen in the fourcourts for the first time in eight months.
Whether that will force prices higher than 0% in the consumer price index I do not know.
I still believe we are in deflation and not inflation
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On Monday Tata Steel sell their entire U.K steel operations.
Lets hope the buyers Liberty House and Greybull Capital are true to their word.
It would be devastating if they were not the buyers as no one else has come forward.
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Oh, it may well be worth trying to save it. It's hard to value people's quality of life and happiness, and it must be better to be gainfully employed than on benefits. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the Chinese are losing money too, and seem prepared to continue with that. At some point in the future, the price of steel will rise. And then there is the "community" angle with such a big local employer.
But it will be difficult to keep it going, with no guarantee that it will work, and it will need significant commitment of public funds. If the government keeps it going with half a billion of subsidy and it closes anyway a year down the road that will not be seen as clever - it opens up the arguments about where else that money could have been spent.
It's losing maybe £200 per man per day currently. It would be cheaper to pay them benefits, in purely financial terms, although that takes no account of all the other jobs indirectly affected.
Difficult decision, which is why it probably won't be taken.
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Would you shut down the Port Talbot steelworks.
If not how would you save the steelworks.
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>> Would you shut down the Port Talbot steelworks.
I don't know. I'd like not to.
>> If not how would you save the steelworks.
I haven't applied myself to this problem because I have nowhere near enough of the necessary information to identify options and model /evaluate them, even supposing my skills were up to it which seems unlikely as I have no experience of the steel industry (not that that ever stopped a consultant).
Nor can I actually influence what happens.
A pal of mine worked for British Steel in Sheffield, about 1974 to 1978, doing operational research. Even then, every study said the most profitable (least unprofitable) option was to shut down the plant.
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I remember watching on television during the Miners strike the first striking miner that went back to work in South Yorkshire.
He must have realised the consequence of going back to work. He must have knew he broke the strike. The first one back out of 40 thousand striking miners.
He must have knew there was no future in deep mined coal.
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I worked for the Coal Board in the 70s and the party line in the mid 70s was that there was enough coal for 300+ years. That was probably true, using the technology of the time etc.
Things moved fairly quickly though - the miners priced themselves out of it and rejected the required new working practices, and opencast coal could be imported from Australia far cheaper than our deep mines could produce it.
The Coal Board did have a research unit which was working on underground gasification, along with other schemes such as district heating, but at the end of the day nothing made it cheap enough to save.
These days I don't really go along with massive subsidy to loss making industries which have little hope of turning around so I'm afraid for me the steel industry should be let go. I do, of course, feel really sorry for the employees but change and re-invention is the name of the game these days.
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I fully agree with you smokie,
It is cheaper to import coal than it was to mine our coal in those deep mines.
Coal from South Africa, Poland and Columbia is mined cheaply and sold on world markets
Coal from Poland was imported during the Miners strike.
Our coal miners had no chance as a consequence.
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>> Our coal miners had no chance as a consequence.
>>
That sounds a lot like the steel workers.
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I agree the steel workers have no hope either.
When everything dies down and the media move on I see no future for our steel mills.
Its like the steel workers are on strike and the threat from Tata Steel is to close down the entire industry.
Do not forget we have a Conservative Government in power.
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>> I might as well keep my views to myself.
>>
That would be a useful start.
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There are only 25 thousand steelworkers left in the U.K.
Would people be worried if there where no steelworkers left.
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>> There are only 25 thousand steelworkers left in the U.K.
>>
>> Would people be worried if there where no steelworkers left.
Would I be upset if steel making ceased in the UK, possibly a slight sigh to see such industrial heritage cease. (as we invented the industrial revolution)
Would it actually materially affect me? No.
Therefore I would not be worried.
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Thanks for your honesty.
I would not be worried either.
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I would be sad if we lost our entire steel industry.
Where would the replacement jobs come from?
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BBC documentary to air tomorrow looking at Victorian and later attitudes to pverty and contrasting with today. Presented by Ian Hislop:
www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2016/14/workers-or-shirkers
Also features an emotional Iain Duncan Smith.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/05/iain-duncan-smith-wept-tv-interview-ian-hislop-workers-or-shirkers
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This country is, or ought to be, very capable in the area of special steels, special alloy steels and processes like high quality forging. Doesn't demand huge quantities of iron and has very high added value.
No need for us to make building girders and the like, although we can and do. We're a bit idle somehow and given to resting smugly on our tattered old laurels. Or perhaps it's just me and everyone else is a long-toothed go-getter.
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If we are capable of making specialist steel then that is what we should make.
I presume making specialist steel in the U.K that is profitable that that steel has a long term future in the U.K.
In other words low quality steel is unprofitable to make in the U.K.
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The Business Secretary is in Mumbia to save the British steel industry.
If it was my decision I would wash my hands of the British steel industry.
Them steel workers have been left home to dry. There is no future for our steel industry.
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One way for the Gov to help Port Talbot steel worx (Tartar) could be to invest more money on metalled roads.
8-}
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Is Port Talbot a steel works that makes standard or specialist steel.
There is a lot of jobs at risk for a successful outcome.
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Bloke on the telly a bit back was saying they would convert it to re-use scrap steel, which would be a slow process (the conversion, that is - over many years, furnace by furnace). He also said they would not allow any redundancies.
I suppose they are looking for a govt handout to keep it afloat while they strip any assets.
Seems a lot of blame is heaped on high energy costs but I read something yesterday that agreed the costs were high, but as they are only a reasonably small (18%?) proportion of total cost the impact was less significant than implied.
]
I'm really not comfortable with large subsidies for any industry when there are core services strapped for cash.
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I am opposed to state subsidy but we are talking 25 thousand jobs at risk.
I need some help, how many jobs is being created in our economy. I judge 30 thousand jobs created every month.
Is that correct or not.
I do not see where the welfare cuts overall would come from.
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If Tata Steel are selling their entire U.K. steel making industry why the talk with these asset strippers.
Do not forget part of the cost of buying Tata Steels entire U.K operation is the pension liabilities.
Does Liberty house and Greybull Capital know that they have to cover pension costs in buying British steels entire steel making complexes.
These trading houses need to know the cost of buying Tata Steel U.K. operation.
The sadness is the steel workers have been given no option but to accept any offer on the table.
The Scunthorpe steel workers have been given a ballot to accept a pay cut.
Whats next.
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I do so hope the potential buyers drop in here to find out more about their potential liabilities before signing the dotted line... :-)
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What are the entire liabilities in buying the steel assets from Tata Steel?
Losing a million pounds a day does not sound a good buy.
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I am sure that potential buyers welcome your advice. I almost envy your in depth knowledge of global heavy industry.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 6 Apr 16 at 15:29
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fluffs could set up a Steel Industry Consultancy service.
"Fluffed Steel Industries LTD. Burning in the Furnaces of Hull since 2016."
I'm sure Mollusc Fon$hit$ack of Panama City LTD could help him/her set up the necessary financial arrangements.
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Most of imported iron ore that is use by Tata Steel should have been imported through South Wales bulk terminals
The bulk of the imports are transhipped through the Port of Rotterdam.
That puts the cost of raw materials up for Port Talbot steelworks.
As well as energy costs, labour costs and pension liabilities, lets hope Liberty House and Greybull Capital know what the implications are of buying Tata Steels U.K. operations.
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>> Most of imported iron ore that is use by Tata Steel should have been imported
>> through South Wales bulk terminals
>>
>> The bulk of the imports are transhipped through the Port of Rotterdam.
>>
>> That puts the cost of raw materials up for Port Talbot steelworks.
The fact that you have to import it from the southern hemisphere is what puts the price up.
>> As well as energy costs, labour costs and pension liabilities, lets hope Liberty House and
>> Greybull Capital know what the implications are of buying Tata Steels U.K. operations.
Fluffy, they known the cost, price and the value of everything right down to the used toilet paper.
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Thanks for what you have written.
I do appreciate it.
You seem to have incredible knowledge about a lot of different subjects.
I envy you for what you know.
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Does anyone know how to get coffee out of keyboards?
;-)
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>> Does anyone know how to get coffee out of keyboards?
>>
>> ;-)
Yes - I have have incredible knowledge about a lot of different subjects.
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Disconnect from mains, remove all batteries and floppies etc. Run water through the laptop freely in all directions for a long time. Allow ample drying time, turning frequently, preferably in a warm but not hot place. You can't go through all these motions too often.
Recommission in stages, cautiously. Keep fingers crossed.
Anyway that's what I did once, and got away with it. Wouldn't dream of recommending anyone else to.
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>> Does anyone know how to get coffee out of keyboards?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
Pressure washer
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Americas largest privately-owned coal miner has filed for bankrupcy protection.
They are blaming a collapse on the price of coal which means they are unable to service their debts.
So it is not just steel makers suffering.
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>> BBC documentary to air tomorrow looking at Victorian and later attitudes to pverty and contrasting
>> with today. Presented by Ian Hislop:
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2016/14/workers-or-shirkers
Thursday actually, BBC2 8pm. See I was listening! Just been looking for it.
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In the times since the Victorian era we have progressed beyond our wildest dreams.
It was the Victorians who expanded the society we live in today.
These pionners created what we have today.
We went from an agricultural society to an industrial one then to an office based society we have today.
As the topic is relevent we had a huge coal mining and steel industry.
Those industries have nearly gone now.
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You are really good at the faux naive stuff but I'm not convinced.
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>>
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 6 Apr 16 at 17:49
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80% of our G.D.P is based on services.
I am sad as well on the demise of our manufacturing industry.
It was the recession of the early 1980s that destroyed our manufacturing base.
We are running a current account deficit of over 5% of our G.D.P in 2015.
Only 15% of our workforce is employed in manufacturing.
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At this moment there is no guarantee that all the jobs can be saved at Port Talbot.
Liberty house has a steel plant in Newport just up the road from Port Talbot.
But the saying is when the Tata steel plants come up for sale next Monday, Liberty house has said they might not buy Port Talbot steel works.
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I think we should join the Euro. That would immediately increase the value of Sterling meaning that we could maintain welfare payments, save Port Talbot and reduce the deficit by increasing the availability of Government bonds.
What do you think fluffer?
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I would borrow on the financial markets when interest rates for government bonds are so cheap.
Borrow to invest and not on everyday spending.
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Is Port Talbot and welfare an investment Fluffer?
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There is no money in the U.K. in making basic steel.
Even the Chinese cannot make a profit on steel.
If we built more on infractructure and used British steel maybe a large part of our steel industry could survive.
Then the steel workers would be paid a wage and not dole money if there was mass job losses.
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>> If we built more on infractructure and used British steel maybe a large part of
>> our steel industry could survive.
Like HS2 you mean?
>> Then the steel workers would be paid a wage and not dole money if there
>> was mass job losses.
Lot of steel in HS2.
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Yes HS2 and Crossrail 2. Crossrail 2 is going to cost at least £30 billion.
Surely some of that £30 billion should be spent on British rolling stock and hence British steel.
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Good answer.
If only we could relay on the government to distinguish investment from expenses.
It would make more sense than expensive private capital, and promising the French or Chinese 10 times the going rate for electricity to get them to pay for the nuclear power stations.
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Surely the civil servants that advice the Government know what they are doing.
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>> Surely the civil servants that advice the Government know what they are doing.
Much as I'd like to defend my former colleagues many are (asked to be) doing much too much much too young.....
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 6 Apr 16 at 21:18
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Keep them coming. The fish are biting tonight.
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£100bn+ from HS2/Crossrail and another £100bn for Trident renewal could build a shedload of onshore windturbines, a couple of nuclear powerstations (preferably sited in the Thames estuary), and a chunk of tidal energy so we could all run around in Teslas (and Leafs for the riffraff).
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So we are a rich country regardless if our steel industry survive with no job losses.
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I bet even the Billy Goats Gruff would struggle with this one.
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This is made of 40 odd thousand tons of Chinese steel.
www.forth-bridges.co.uk/queensferry-crossing.html
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And I thought the Scots were pro British.
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The British aircraft carriers have foreign steel content. About 5,000 tons each I believe.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 6 Apr 16 at 21:48
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>> And I thought the Scots were pro British.
>>
The contractors will source the cheapest steel which meets the required specification. UK steel was too expensive so UK steel workers will lose their jobs.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 6 Apr 16 at 21:53
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A while back I was watching Jamie Oliver about school meals.
The meat they used was inported from New Zealand.The meat from Wales was to expensive for the schools.Foreign jobs are more important than the locals it is all about the money never mind the social cost.
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If the labour costs in New Zealand are high surely buying British food products is better priced.
Who buys Anchor butter or New Zealand lamb,beef or pork.
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NZ produces the stuff on an industrial scale for the world market. Folks may remember the debate about Halal slaughter in which it emerged that all NZ lamb is halal because they sell huge quantities in the Muslim world. There's no mileage in a separate non Halal process.
Welsh lamb is marketed as a premium product. They probably don't want school catering contracts. No idea if other UK areas might be able to meet that demand.
I don't use Anchor butter because, so far as I'm aware they don't do the unsalted variety which I prefer.
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>> NZ produces the stuff on an industrial scale for the world market. Folks may
>> remember the debate about Halal slaughter in which it emerged that all NZ lamb is
>> halal because they sell huge quantities in the Muslim world. There's no mileage in a
>> separate non Halal process.
Australia cuts out the middle man. You should see the huge, near bulk crude carrier size, ships at Freemantle being loaded with 10s of thousands of live sheep*, on their way to Saudi Arabia. They butcher them as they wish on arrival.
The smell as they leave is incredible. Lord knowns what it smells like on arrival.
*they still leave 75 million behind
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 10:28
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Does New Zealand sell more meat to the Middle East than they do to Western Europe.
I presume the animals are killed in the Middle East and not in New Zealand.
What exactly is halal meat.
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>>
>> What exactly is halal meat.
>>
Ear you go:-
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27324224
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Duncan do you eat halal meat.
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Most people in the UK eat some Halal meat whether they realise it or not.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 10:47
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>> Most people in the UK eat some Halal meat whether they realise it or not.
>>
What he said.
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>> >> Most people in the UK eat some Halal meat whether they realise it or
>> not.
>> >>
>>
>> What he said.
Fine by me. Its meat, dont really care what is uttered over its bleeding carcass as long as it tastes good.
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My favourite steak is T-bone steak.
As long as it is well done I am happy.
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>> Does New Zealand sell more meat to the Middle East than they do to Western
>> Europe.
In total, no. They export a lot to the EU, the biggest markets being Germany, Belgium, France*, then the UK.
They have big export markets in the USA and Japan.
>> What exactly is halal meat.
Exactly the same as kosher. The animal has to be alive when the blood is drained.
French sheep are made of concrete. Thats why they eat New Zealand lamb.
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>> Exactly the same as kosher. The animal has to be alive when the blood is
>> drained.
There are strong similarities between halal and kosher but they are not exactly same. Although interpretations vary there is much more tolerance of pre-stunning in halal. And as somebody who has dealt with dietary requirements for people attending conferences I can state that it's MUCH easier and cheaper to provide halal food. That though relates to preparation as well as slaughter.
In practice the only difference between halal and non halal meat in mainstream UK supermarkets is that a prayer is said as the animal for the halal meat is dispatched.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 10:57
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No wonder more and more people are becoming vegertarian
The way the animal is killed is cruel.
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>> No wonder more and more people are becoming vegertarian
>>
>> The way the animal is killed is cruel.
How do you like your Cows, Pigs, Sheep, Chickens, killed then Fluff?
I assume you don't eat Rabbit.
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I do sound hypocritical.
I admit I enjoy eating pork and lamb.
I rarely eat beef but I do eat it.
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>> Do the Indians eat beef?
Holly Cow batman, how do we know?
(check out Hinduism)
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I thought the cow in India was a sacred animal.
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>> I thought the cow in India was a sacred animal.
IIRC it is to Hindus (who are majority) but Indian nationality covers a fairly wide mix of ethnicity and religion.
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>> is that a prayer is said as the animal for the halal meat is dispatched.
"Where is this one going?" "Alans Snackbar", "Again? Jeez Alan takes a lot off lamb, where is it?"
Kebab house in Reading.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 11:05
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I have eaten a doner kebab.
I presume the meat is lamb.
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>> "Where is this one going?" "Alans Snackbar"
Took me a minute to get that one......
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>> The smell as they leave is incredible. Lord knowns what it smells like on arrival.
>>
I passed downwind of one on the Rottnest ferry, the smell was eye watering.
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>> Who buys Anchor butter or New Zealand lamb,beef or pork.
Look at Anchor range on their website and it's branded as Arla - the UK dairy co-op. No mention of NZ. An explore on Wiki suggests the UK market is now supplied domestically with butter made in Westbury. Regulars complained that the taste was markedly different from the original.
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My favourite butter is Lurpak spreadable.
I enjoy the taste.
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>> My favourite butter is Lurpak spreadable.
>>
>> I enjoy the taste.
groceries.asda.com/product/salted-butter/lurpak-slightly-salted-butter/20521
Country of Origin: Denmark
Traitor.
:)
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>> An explore on Wiki suggests the UK market is
>> now supplied domestically with butter made in Westbury.
groceries.asda.com/product/salted-butter/anchor-butter/20532
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Supporting British Farmers
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I thought British steel was competetively priced.
I think it is a terrible shame British steel is not used.
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Fluffy the above has already been discussed here and you seem to keep repeating yourself, that will win you no friends here...
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Smokie, the above has already been discussed here and repeating it will win you no friends here...
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I will listen to your advice, smokie.
Thanks for your opinion.
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If there were no tariff barriers would the world be a better place?
It is up to the World Trade Organisation to solve disputes between different countries.
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Fluffy, what is it with all the questions? Are you a poll junky or something?
IIRC, someone asked you one the other day, and you said it was none of their business (or words to that effect).
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I just have a confused opinion.
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"I just have a confused opinion."
About this topic? The EU referendum? Or about things generally?
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I am confused about whether to vote IN or OUT in the E.U referendum.
It is a life changing decision on 23rd June for the In/OUT referendum vote.
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>> I am confused about whether to vote IN or OUT in the E.U referendum.
>>
>> It is a life changing decision on 23rd June for the In/OUT referendum vote.
>>
I don't really know what to say to that.
By one of those coincidences, tomorrow I am going to be out of touch for two weeks.
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>>By one of those coincidences, tomorrow I am going to be out of touch for two weeks
...By another coincidence, some of the posters on here have been out of touch for years......
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Do we know what the consequences are if we do vote to leave the E.U.
I will be glad when we get to 24th June.
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My council tax has gone up by 3.99% on an annual basis.
I know who not to vote for in the local elections on 5th May.
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"Do we know what the consequences are if we do vote to leave the E.U."
I know I'm a bit confused, Fluffo, but didn't I see this discussed a lot somewhere? Somewhere not too far away?
Or maybe my attention-span is getting a bit short.
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>> Or maybe my attention-span is getting a bit short.
>>
That seems to be more fluffy's problem than yours.
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"I am confused about whether to vote IN or OUT in the E.U referendum."
Which thread is this? Remind me, somebody... I'm getting confused... The Fluffster is confusing me.
Ask questions, must ask questions...
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"Ask questions, must ask questions..."
[puts hand up .......]
I've got one ..... anyone on here know how to deal with a leaking windscreen-washer bottle on an Astra H? That's a serious question!
Last edited by: Haywain on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 17:09
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Take it out, buy a replacement from the scrapper.
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>> I am confused about whether to vote IN or OUT in the E.U referendum.
>> It is a life changing decision on 23rd June for the In/OUT referendum vote.
n
Don't worry fluffy. It isn't really life-changing. It will be 'in' fingers crossed, if sanity prevails ... (insh'Allah).
We British quite like the status quo. It's what we're used to. Change is so upsetting.
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The fingers crossed bit is what fears me.
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If our steel works are saved and we vote to leave the E.U. will the deals to save the steel works survive.
Will the fear again begin for the remaining steel workers for their jobs.
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>> If our steel works are saved and we vote to leave the E.U. will the
>> deals to save the steel works survive.
>>
>> Will the fear again begin for the remaining steel workers for their jobs.
Can you think of something else to worry about?
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It makes no difference to me personally if all the remaining steel workers lose their jobs.
All I am doing is showing sympathy to the remaining steel works that are left.
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>> It makes no difference to me personally if all the remaining steel workers lose their
>> jobs.
>>
>> All I am doing is showing sympathy to the remaining steel works that are left.
And you have. repeatedly. They would like you to stop now.
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I have said my piece.
No more articles about steel workers and saving their jobs.
I will go back to the topic at the top of this forum post.
That topic is tax cuts for the rich , welfare cuts for the poor.
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They will not be the only ones losing their jobs. Exodus of motor manufacturing the aircraft and arms industries and decline of the large supporting industries is pretty predictable. Even without EU incentives, to attract Japanese/Korean investment, out of spite. Can't blame them. The city? Loyal to a fault. So long as gelt is the sole aim, ill-gotten as it is. Relocating to Frankfurt or New Amsterdam would be quite easy….
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We might lose certain parts of our manufacturing base but we will still have the City of London and the London property market.
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>I like kittens.
Fluffy kittens?
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What are kittens exactly?
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I want a high wage, high welfare and low tax economy.
A bit like Norway or Sweden.
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ummmm....
"Norway is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world with a total tax burden of roughly 45% of GDP– almost 4x Hong Kong and nearly twice the US. VAT here is a whopping 25%. Personal income tax rates border 55%. Corporate profits tax ranges from 28% to as high as 78%."
Idiot.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 20:53
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Possibility 1) Fluffy is an idiot.
Possibility 2) Fluffy is pretending to be an idiot, which is idiotic.
Can't see a pile of difference myself.
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It's actually a rather clever creation. Quite difficult to sustain although there have been one or two slips. Long may "Fluffy" continue.
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Whatever rings your bell. I think he's a tit.
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"I think he's a tit."
He's managed to wind up a few folks on here though; eh, eh.
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>> Whatever rings your bell. I think he's a tit.
>>
Personally I think he's a thrush.
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>> Personally I think he's a thrush.
Turdus
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....no, that little irritation that you think you might finally have got rid of, but keeps re-appearing..............
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>> ....no, that little irritation that you think you might finally have got rid of, but
>> keeps re-appearing..............
>>
You got it. Well, I hope you haven't, but I'm sure you understand my meaning...
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|
.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 7 Apr 16 at 22:08
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Is that the reason Norway and Sweden are empty? Idiotic comment.
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Sweden is a high tax economy.
Do you pay income tax fluffy?
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Would you rather live in Sweden or U.S.A.
I do not like the U.S.A poverty gap between the richest and poorest.
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I would rather have the Port of Rotterdam than the Port of Long Beach.
It makes me laugh when U.K.I.P talk about slow growth Europe.
Have a walk around the Port of Rotterdam to see " slow" growth Europe.
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What is the point in UKIP anyway.
Its the Conservative Party that is doing the dirty work.
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Is the posting of 3 consecutive posts the computer age equivalent of talking to oneself?
Many people associate talking to yourself with mental illness or an unbalanced mind. There is some truth to this view, as talking out loud to yourself can be a sign of some types of mental illness or psychological disorder. The most severe among these disorders is called schizophrenia.Dec 22, 2015
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Would love to see who has thumbed Fluff's posts.
Has he made a second account, or is someone being a fud?
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Probably sympathetic reactions to some of the nasty comments.
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I would rather live in high tax Sweden than low tax U.S.A
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>> I would rather live in high tax Sweden than low tax U.S.A
>>
>>
We'll have a whip round for you fare, when can you go?
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"Would love to see who has thumbed Fluff's posts.
Has he made a second account, or is someone being a fud?"
I have some sympathy with this: 'I do not like the U.S.A poverty gap between the richest and poorest', though I wouldn't give it a thumbs-up. Likewise 'It makes me laugh when U.K.I.P talk about slow growth Europe. Have a walk around the Port of Rotterdam to see " slow" growth Europe.' The Port of Rotterdam is certainly busy - I don't know about growth. I wouldn't give that a thumbs-up either.
But I don't know why the good doctor should object (as I think he is) to the approval. (Not that I understand the word "fud". Is it Scots dialect?)
There's plenty that's odd going on here, but I'm not convinced anyone needs to get all hot under the collar about it. You'd think, from some of the criticisms, that some of our regulars have been personally affronted.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Fri 8 Apr 16 at 12:35
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To me growth and busy is one of the same thing.
London Gateway on the River Thames is busy.
To me that means growth.
The consumption in the Greater London area is increasing the trade of the London Gateway.
In other words the boom in one area is creating growth in the other area.
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>>To me growth and busy is one of the same thing.
I guess the immigrant camp at Calais is a thriving economy then.
If you have a degree (even from Hull) then I'm the Pope of Scotland.
*fetches funny hat*
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Are you trying to say newly arrived migrants are creating growth for our economy.
Our population is growing by 300 thousand people a year.
That population growth means we will EVEN have a bigger population than Germany.
We already have Europe second biggest economy.
And our economy is growing faster than Germany every quarter.
Eventually our economy will be Europe biggest.
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>> There's plenty that's odd going on here, but I'm not convinced anyone needs to get
>> all hot under the collar about it. You'd think, from some of the criticisms, that
>> some of our regulars have been personally affronted.
>>
Not personally affronted. Just tired of the fake inane witterings which have long since ceased to be amusing.
I'm minded to suggest that, given the length of this thread, there may be some element of collusion between "fluffy" and one of the site moderators. Either way, I don't think I'm alone in seeing this stuff as a wind-up. So whoever's behind this, please drop it.
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If the idiot is the alter ego of a regular, then the moderators will almost certainly know who it is.
However, I must say I don't really care if its a wind up or genuine. As I said yesterday, the difference between being an idiot and pretending to be an idiot is not significant.
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>> As I said yesterday, the difference between being an idiot and pretending to be an
>> idiot is not significant.
Not to us perhaps, but might be to them?
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Universal Credit has been rolled out nationaly today.
Thats six benefits into one.
For the rich there has been a cut in the income tax based on an increase in the personal allowance for higher rate taxpayers.
Another knock for the rich is the extra allowance on the payment of capital gains tax.
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Is being a BLOGGER a legitimate job.
I am interested to know.
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>> Universal Credit has been rolled out nationaly today.
>> Thats six benefits into one.
On a purely factual level I doubt that is correct. UC is being rolled out gradually but as of now in most areas if not all it is restricted to the simplest claims - workless single people.
Cynics will say that Iain D S jumped over PIP before he was pushed over the mess that is UC.
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We are facing the greatest revolution in the welfare state since Beveridge.
Iain Duncan Smiths obituary will say he was the archetect of that welfare revolution.
In fact the welfare state was created in 1909 by David Lloyd George with the payment of the old age pension.
Motability allowance was created in 1976 so that severely disabled people could get about without using public transport.
We as a society must not destroy what has been built.
As a country a fair society helps the disabled, elderly and vulnerable.
Come on George admit we can have a welfare state as well as a low tax economy.
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If it is a wind up as I believe its a pretty clever one and abuse and name calling is only likely
to encourage the author.
If there is genuine Fluffy I think that he would have to have some sort of mental or behavioural problem to post as he does in which case again abuse is not helpful or deserved.
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I have just been on Youtube and watched a video about London Gateway.
There must be a lot of wealthy people living in Greater London.
The demand for goods and products must be vast to import huge amounts of consumer goods through London Gateway.
Where is the money coming from to buy vast amounts of consumer goods.
Maybe George Osborne can tell me.
He must be making a lot of wealthy people happy.
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If this is trolling, it's epic - the poster completely disregards abusive, mocking or humourous comments and continues with the same anti-intellectual (but not unintelligent) drivel.
It is a level of magnitude different to normal trolling which is to stoke up a frenzy and sit back and giggle at it.
It is, however, quite consistent with someone who struggles to communicate at a social level, other than with the voices in their own head.
Some of the tripe written suggests English is not a first language, which may explain much of the miscommunication though.
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>> Some of the tripe written suggests English is not a first language, which may explain
>> much of the miscommunication though.
>>
I am much reminded of the stuff Bluebottle used to come out with on the Goon Show.
The difference being that he was funny.
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>> Maybe George Osborne can tell me.
>> He must be making a lot of wealthy people happy.
Even the poor people in this country are very well off by whole-world standards. Money, goods, money, services, money... it's like a human pyramid topped by a brilliant juggler (an abstract image not meant literally). George Osborne and the PM like Hillary and Rumpo are current and recirculating holders of these executive roles. They must be very tough insensitive individuals as well as much brighter than the average, God bless them.
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Cameron and Osborne had the best education money can buy not so sure if they are that much brighter than the rest of us.
Good speakers due to excellent training does help.
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>> Cameron and Osborne had the best education money can buy not so sure if they are that much brighter than the rest of us.
It's true there are different forms of intelligence Dutchie. But that good education is supposed to teach you to make the best of what you've got without causing unnecessary dramas.
It isn't intelligence exactly. Perhaps it's something better and of greater practical usefulness.
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George Osborne is heir to a baronet.
David Camerons wife is heir to a vast fortune.
No wonder they look after the rich and famous.
Them Russian billionaires are in London not for the weather.
Them Russians own a huge chunk of the central London property market.
One of them owns Chelsea football club.
A number of London borough are the poorest areas of Britain.
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Remember the chap who invented cats eyes on the road.There was a program about him how he liked many televisions in his house if I remember.He didn't look intelligent or spoke intelligent still invented something simple which saved many lives.
Remarkable man.
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Well done, Fluffy! Your fan club gets larger by the day. Time for the t-shirts soon.
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If it's fake then it's for all intents and purposes a troll. Getting wound up, outraged, bored or whatever is only encouragement. As they say, "Don't feed the troll."
If it's not, either ignore it or try to be helpful, or maybe try to be subtle.
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>If it's fake then it's for all intents and purposes a troll.
Ask yourself this:
Why would it ask what a troll is when Lygonos only used the verb trolling?
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Why do you use the impersonal pronoun? Is Fluffy a droid?
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Or I was human last time I checked.
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You might find the Turing test tricky. :-)
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4% of human DNA has partly evolved from Neanderthal Man.
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And someone will say Neanderthal Man became extinct 35 thousand years ago.
There again I thought I saw one last week.
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No they're still around, in fact they are becoming more common. something to do with global warming. Where did you spot him?
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The Neanderthal Man is extinct is he not.
I must be in the wrong job.
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Yes they are actually extinct. In the wrong place at the wrong time. The cold got them in the end during the last ice age. The last population is believed to have lived around Gibralter as you say around 35000 years ago.
Why do you sat you are in the wrong job?
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But I thought Neanderthal Man was built for the cold.
Please enlighten me.
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They were a temperate species trapped in a cooling continent. Nowhere to go but extinction.
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Surely they could have gone back to Africa.
But they were up against Modern Man. Or what we call Wise Man that is Us.
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Just proves that staying in Europe is not always the right thing to do I guess. ;- )
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FAO of no-one in particular...
I feel quite alarmed that Car4Play has attracted, or cultivated, so many people willing to be downright offensive to someone's (virtual) face. There have always been a few, who we've learned to live with, but I'm feeling now that it must be contagious, as people I'd previously had some respect for have jumped on the bullying bandwagon. For me, the continual sniping and offensive comments are actually considerably less pleasant than anything uttered by the target.
This forum is heading the way of so many others, albeit via a slightly more polite route.
Luckily there are still a considerable number of members who don't feel the need to belittle others, whatever they may be thinking privately, and who haven't joined the pack.
I don't think I'm the sensitive sort but I'm sure many of you will disagree.
Just for the record, as far as I know it is not a wind up and there is no collusion from anyone connected with the site.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Apr 16 at 20:15
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...well, I for one am sorry if it offends, but I do wonder whether (faux) naiveté is catching......
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>>
>> Just for the record, as far as I know it is not a wind up
>> and there is no collusion from anyone connected with the site.
>>
Thank you for clarifying that, I for one am perfectly happy to accept it . Would you please explain, though, why this thread has (almost uniquely) dragged on for so long?
I don't happen to think that it is bullying. I think of smaller forums (fora?) of being a bit like a virtual village pub, and if you get someone walking into one of those establishments and irritating the locals, sooner or later patience runs out and they get rebuffed. Fluffy's behaviour, and his constant stream of inane comments and questions, have irked me and quite a few others, and our reactions might not be to your liking but given human nature I suggest they're fairly predictable.
Unlike other forums I inhabit, I cannot seem to find an "ignore" feature on this one, so regrettably I cannot block fluffy; unless I'm missing something?
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"Would you please explain, though, why this thread has (almost uniquely) dragged on for so long?"
I can't. There has been no central decision either, or even any discussion about it between the mods. But in my own (personal) view it is keeping the conversation mostly in one place, which in itself isn't such a bad thing.
Like you, I also like to think of this place like a virtual village pub. However unlike a pub we are often not particularly welcoming to newcomers. In Admin I can see 20 new users who validated their usernames in the past 90 days. A small handful of these will have been spammers but only two have posted more than once here, one being Fluffy and the other a previous member who rejoined or for some reason set up a new account. So maybe we're turning out to be more of an exclusive inbred club than a welcoming village pub.
If you look around there are plenty of other members who may be equally irked but they've managed to get by without any comment at all, let alone the potentially personally offensive comments - and all without an IGNORE button! :-)
'Nuff said, I'm away next week for a couple of weeks: maybe I need the break :-)
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>> This forum is heading the way of so many others, albeit via a slightly more polite route.
...well, I think you really do have to look at what is the common denominator....
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Why is abuse and name calling apparently now OK -surely any abusive comments should automatically be deleted, no ifs, no buts. Clearly against the rules
Doesn't seem to happen
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>> Why is abuse and name calling apparently now OK -
Is it? ACE - Fill yer boots you Norfolk Dumpling. Now wheres that Basingstoke Inbred.....
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Apr 16 at 23:12
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To re-purpose parts of a quote on leadership, that have general application -
Be strong, but not rude. Be bold, but not a bully. Be proud, but not arrogant.
I slip occasionally, but I try to remember that when I have the power to be nasty, I also have the power not to be.
As for the village pub - nothing worse than the regulars who think they own the place. One of many reasons I would never be a publican, or a moderator.
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Well good for you. I'm afraid I don't suffer fools gladly, especially when they can't take a hint. And fluffy's had plenty of them.
Perhaps it's time I found another local.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 9 Apr 16 at 00:09
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....TBH, I would think that new posters are just as likely to be put off by all the inane witterings (rude or not) from both Fluffy and the responding posters (to my shame I include myself in the latter), as they are by any "rudeness".
IMO, If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a troll. (And I suspect any potential new posters here would rapidly come to the same conclusion, especially if they were to look at the posting history).
However, I would agree, it would better to ignore than to be rude, particularly given the inanity of some of the posts (or is that comment, in itself, too rude?)
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>> Perhaps it's time I found another local.
Please don't take that personally HM, I wasn't focused on taking aim at you and "nothing worse" was silly exaggeration.
I have a bit of a down on one of the locals at the moment that you inadvertently catalysed.
I do feel uncomfortable with open hostility, at least when not directed at those who have offered first. Sometimes I just have to bite my tongue (keyboard?) and ignore jibes and put-downs. There's something dark about joining a mob, even when the mob might have a point.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 9 Apr 16 at 15:30
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>> I do feel uncomfortable with open hostility, at least when not directed at those who
>> have offered first. Sometimes I just have to bite my tongue (keyboard?) and ignore jibes
>> and put-downs. There's something dark about joining a mob, even when the mob might have
>> a point.
>>
No offence taken mate; appreciate you taking the time to mention it though.
Sometimes, to continue your pub analogy, it don't do any harm to have a few pints elsewhere if onl;y to remind yourself of how much you appreciate your local pub.
Cheers.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Apr 16 at 20:47
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Exactly my thoughts and the reason I have not bothered posting, or reading, hardly any of the threads on here all week.
I don't want to be a part of any group who treats newcomers this way.
Pat
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Just to clarify, my post was in reply to Smokie's for those who don't use the threaded view.
Pat
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I respect your opinion Pat.
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"Ask yourself this:
Why would it ask what a troll is when Lygonos only used the verb trolling?"
I don't know. If you're drawing massive conclusions from that, then bully for you.
I'm not that interested.
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We are one of the worlds richest countries with parts of the country with untold wealth.
But part of the East End of London has a higher T.B rate than parts of Africa.
Where is the justice in this.
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The Conservative Government is still commited to £12 billion of welfare cuts.
That extra £4.4 billion of cuts in the welfare budget was not in the Conservative Party manifesto.
Why the government risked antagonising a large part of our population I do not know.
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>> Why the government risked antagonising a large part of our population I do not know.
For government, read Cameron and Osborne.
Schooled to believe they are superior, so believing that they can outwit the proles with a few well chosen, oft-repeated slogans;
assuming the electorate is so thick that few will remember by election time in 2020;
believing their own propaganda;
surrounding themselves with toadies;
being unaware of the difference between confidence and competence, and so not listening to people who disagree with them;
having a completely useless opposition.
Take your pick:)
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>I don't know. If you're drawing massive conclusions from that, then bully for you.
Well thank-you. I didn't realise how massive a conclusion it would be to some folks.
>I'm not that interested.
As evidenced by how many times you've replied to the inane witterings.
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">I don't know. If you're drawing massive conclusions from that, then bully for you.
Well thank-you. I didn't realise how massive a conclusion it would be to some folks.
>I'm not that interested.
As evidenced by how many times you've replied to the inane witterings."
It's a great pity some people don't actually read and understand.
My words above say that I am not interested in the "massive conclusions" some people wish to draw about the individual concerned. They do NOT say I am not interested in what that individual contributes.
Hard work, again.
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For the record, I did not give Kevin's post a frownie. I might have felt like doing so, but I didn't. I have serious reservations about both the frownie and the thumb, though I think I've used the latter once or twice. Don't think I've used the frownie.
I really think that both ought to go.
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Some people look at the world in a different way.They might not conform but make them more interesting.
I hate the gang mentality be part of my little club or you are out.Maybe that is why I always have been a bit of a loner.Follow the leader not for me.
Keep going Fluffy you are what you are.<>)
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I have never been in a gang.
Gangs never interested me.
I had a few close friends and that was it.
I was more of a loner.
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Act like a dick, get treated like a dick. If fluffy doesn't like being treated like a dick then the answer is in his hands.
As it were.
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>> Give it a rest.
Because your preferences feature heavily in my decision making process? Hardly.
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"Because your preferences feature heavily in my decision making process? Hardly."
Translates as: "I don't give a **** what anyone else thinks."
Not a surprise, though. We've been here before.
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>>Act like a dick, get treated like a dick. If fluffy doesn't like being treated like a dick then the answer is in his hands
I would not spend 30 minutes inside your imagination!! Weird-ass.
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I don't understand. Where did my imagination feature? Do you or your thumbs know?
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>> Whats upset you FM2R.
Don't get carried away with the idea you may have some special gift fluffs, its not hard to upset him.
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I am not in the business of judging anyone.
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But i have upset FM2R.
I am just asking in what way have I upset FM2R.
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I do that too Fluffy, anyone else can easily do it.
All we have to do is refuse to be intimidated by FM2R and keep posting.
He seems to think that if he intimidates people they will go away, hanging their head in shame:)
If you stay and ignore him, it absolutely infuriates him so just ignore him Fluffy, he hates that:)
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Sat 9 Apr 16 at 19:32
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Thanks for the advice Pat.
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>>All we have to do is refuse to be intimidated by FM2R and keep posting.
Are you really foolish enough to think I care what you do? This place is just stress relief. Long may you stay, you're very effective.
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>>
>> Are you really foolish enough to think I care what you do?
For reasons I don't understand I really think you do.
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Can we stop the name calling.
I am not on this forum to start shouting and banging on about different forum members.
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I am interested in debating different topics that are posted on this forum sight.
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"I am not on this forum to start shouting and banging on about different forum members."
I'm sure you are not, Fluffo, and you have never shown any signs of wanting to do so.
It may be helpful for you to know that many members are very argumentative and some have a history of rudeness. If you stay here you will have to find a way of dealing with it.
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"Are you really foolish enough to think I care what you do?"
Actually, I think many of us are beyond caring what you think and whether or not you care about what we say - when you get into a mood like this. At other times you are perfectly reasonable, helpful and even considerate. Then the red mist descends...
There have been times I've found it intolerable, but have learned to get a thicker skin and, if that doesn't work, just shut up and go away for while. The moderators can't seem to get a grip on offensive comments and the forum staggers on with its occasional flare-ups.
And I don't actually care whether anyone agrees with that or not.
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I respect your honesty Focal Point.
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All very true. However for those of us whose children have left home, it is often entertaining.
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I rest my case M'Lud:)
Pat
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>> But i have upset FM2R.
>>
>> I am just asking in what way have I upset FM2R.
How is your literature education fluffs? Elizabeth Barrett Browning?
"How do I upset thee? Let me count the ways. "
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'Elizabeth Barrett Browning?
"How do I upset thee? Let me count the ways. "'
Very naughty, Z. As I'm sure Fluffy knows, this is a misquotation - a slip on your part, no doubt.
It should read "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."
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I have just been on Youtube and looked at the Crossrail and future Crossrail 2 development.
It is astonishing how vast these infrastructure projects are.
If you include London Gateway, the huge container port down the river on the River Thames, it is no surprise people are flooding into the U.K.
The population of Greater London is approaching 10 million.
The population of the U.K is nearly 65 million.
The employment rate in the U.K is at 74.1% which is the highest rate since records began in 1971.
Our unemployment rate at 5.1% is at a decade low.
There is over 31 million people working in the U.K
What I am trying to see is that Britain is a hugely rich and successful country.
We can afford our welfare state and the public spending that is spent annually in the U.K.
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You may know more than me about this, Fluffo, but I wouldn't have connected the vast infrastructure projects you mention directly with immigration.
But by comparison with many other countries the UK is of course prosperous. However, whether we can really afford the welfare state and public spending as it stands currently I'm not sure.
We have a huge national debt and it is growing. Even the budget deficit seems massive and is growing, though in the past on a few occasions it has been brought under control - most latterly in 2001. There is no sign of that happening now.
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We will have gone from a budget deficit of 11% of G.D.P in 2008 to a "maybe" budget surplus by 2020.
In 2008 Greece had a smaller budget deficit than the U.K but look at the Greek slump since 2008.
Between 1929 and 1932 the U.S.A economy collapsed by 32%.
Since 2008 the Greek economy has collapsed by 27%.
Our economy is at least 6% higher than the pre crisis peak.
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You may know much more about this than me, but your suggestion that the UK might achieve a
budget surplus in 2020 was rubbished by some academic studies in the autumn of last year*, which suggested the UK budget deficit could be £40bn in 2020.
I don't know (a) if that was a reasonable forecast or (b) whether the situation has now improved substantially. I tend to be a sceptic in all such matters.
*Murphy and Palan (City University): "Why the UK's Fiscal Charter is Doomed to Fail - An Analysis of Austerity Economics during the First and the Second Cameron Governments" - 18th November 2015
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It's a novel suggestion, at least implied, that the necessary money is swimming about somewhere, it just isn't available for public services.
Is there scope, politically, for a steep increase in taxation? Maybe not enough to close the deficit.
A lot of tax is indirect. The people and institutions who have it need to spend it for it to reach other parts of the economy as well as increasing government income; but if they hoard it, it can only reach the 'strugglers' by way of loans, either directly or via increased government borrowing, both of which make the economic situation worse not better.
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Public spending is falling to 35% of G.D.P
In Germany it is approaching 55% of their G.D.P.
That 20% gap is vast when it comes to public spending.Its worth at least £ 100 billion of extra spending for the U.K.
If Labour was in power in 2010 would they have done anything different.
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The latest figures I have show Public expenditure for Germany at 45.4% of GDP and UK at 48.5% of GDP
Please quote your source.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending
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Source is the Daily Telegraph.
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Facts never appear in newspapers.
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Thanks for your clarification.
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I might be wrong on the figure but our public expenditure ( I thought) is lower than Germany.
Where is your source from.
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He's given us the link in his reply.
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I have misjudged tax burden with government expenditure.
Sorry for the error.
You are correct with public expenditure as a % of G.D.P.
It was the tax burden I was going to quote.
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I still believe the U.K is one of the worlds richest and most successful economies.
If I am wrong please quote the figures.
If someone can tell me how big our industrial base is I would be most appreciate
I find it difficult to condemn the state of the U.K. economy.
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Where was that last forum post?
I cannot find it anywhere.
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>> Where was that last forum post?
>>
>> I cannot find it anywhere.
>So now we know.
It's AC
8o)
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I still think Britain is a great place to live.
We created the common law, English is a global business language.
We have one of the greatest democracy on Earth.
Our first-past-the-post electroll system stops extremest parties from making a breakthrough.
Our voting system keeps our democracy in the moderate centre.
If you asked me where is the best place to live, Britain would be at the top of my list.
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>> Our first-past-the-post electroll system stops extremest parties from making a breakthrough.
Electroll (sic). Surely a freudian slip......
>> Our voting system keeps our democracy in the moderate centre.
If only.
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Any of you explain to me otherwise.
I will give an example.
That example was the 1931 General election.
After the Wall Street Crash in 1929, the global economy went into a deep slump.
In Germany the collapse of its economy allowed for the rise of the Nazi Party.
The Nazi Party was an extremist horror for the Jews.
In Britain the slump forced the Labour government, elected in the 1929 General Election, to slash the welfare budget.
As a result the Labour Party split and key Labour leaders went on to form the National Government with the Conservatives.
In the resulting General Election of 1931 the National Government gained 551 seats to the Labour Parties 53 seats.
No fear of extremists in the U.K as a consequence.
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Great stuff guys! (Bogbrush)
>> >> Our voting system keeps our democracy in the moderate centre.
>> If only.
What it does really is swerve apparently wildly back and forth across the 'moderate centre'. Far more fun than holding a straight moderate line.
Of course our buddies the pols make sure we know how perilous it all is and how they hold our lives in their hands. We must all be very grateful to them for shovelling all that Scheisse for us. Preventing things from getting out of hand and sending us up a tree.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 10 Apr 16 at 16:37
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Still reading PE then AC. Only paper I trust, more or less.
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The best policy to reduce poverty and pay for our welfare state is through a market based economy.
Our economy is creating a thousand jobs a day.
To me that means success.
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>> The best policy to reduce poverty and pay for our welfare state is through a
>> market based economy.
Probably nobody is disputing that.
It isn't very good at sharing the benefits though. Hence you have all those dirt-poor people in the US you referred to elsewhere, for example.
The poor, relatively at least, must always be with us of course or the system doesn't work in a global market. Just how poor is poor, is what needs to be considered.
Capitalism appears to be the worst economic system, except for all the others that have been tried, you might say.
An interesting experiment might be to have a closed, market, economy. Not sure anybody has tried that yet.
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I thought a closed market economy was known as Mercantalism.
Please enlighten me.
I need help here.
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Can't help you don't know the meaning of the word mercenaries yes.
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Look at Mercantalism at Wikipedia.
Even I might have it wrong.
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One man's "moderate" is another man's "extreme".
Here endeth today's cliché :-)
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Do you think what Nigel Farage says about migrants as well as immigrants is " moderate" or extreme.
The name Farage sounds French to me.
Does that allow him to say what he says about immigrants.
Or does the British political system we have, force him to keep his mouth shut.
If he wants votes he has to sound moderate or his party faces wipeout.
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Will socialism ever survive post Jeremy Corborn.
At this moment I cannot see Labour ever getting back into power.
Is Labours political goal only narrowely to win in Scotland and Wales.
Even in Wales I cannot see Labour winning an absolute majority for the Welsh Assembly.
The Conservative Party won 11 seats in the Welsh area of the U.K,in the 2015 General Election.
That result is a bad omen for the Labour Party for the Welsh Assembly elections next month.
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Does the Labour Party want to exist.
Talking about inheriting money as made Labour say something entirely stupid.
Labour must have thought there was votes in it about Cameron and his inherited wealth.
The trouble is tens of millions of people own a home worth more than what David Cameron inherited from his late father and what was given to him by his mother.
The Labour Party have got to stop digging.
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>>I thought a closed market economy was known as Mercantalism.
I'd forgotten about that. I can see why you thought of it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
I wonder if the Australians have considered that it might not be a great idea to sell their country by the bulk carrier load to China, instead of making the steel etc. and finished goods themselves and exporting that
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 10 Apr 16 at 19:38
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>> I wonder if the Australians have considered that it might not be a great idea
>> to sell their country by the bulk carrier load to China, instead of making the
>> steel etc. and finished goods themselves and exporting that
Labour costs are very high in Australia, much more cost effective to sell it off by the cubic metre. They do have a lot of unused cubic metres, in a thousand years the place will look like an Atol.
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Why does not the Australians make the finished product of steel.
Rather than sell iron ore to the Chinese the Australians could make more profit by making finished steel themselves.
Please enlighten me.
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>> Why does not the Australians make the finished product of steel.
>>
>> Rather than sell iron ore to the Chinese the Australians could make more profit by
>> making finished steel themselves.
>>
>> Please enlighten me.
Let me see now, ah yes. You will find the answer in the post directly above your, why the one you replied to in fact
Labour costs are very high in Australia,
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 11 Apr 16 at 08:19
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I heard today that a steel mill in Australia has gone into administration.
Showd stick to exporting iron ore to China.
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>> Why does not the Australians make the finished product of steel.
>>
>> Rather than sell iron ore to the Chinese the Australians could make more profit by
>> making finished steel themselves.
>>
>> Please enlighten me.
Well you were the first to mention mercantilism and you answered the question in your question.
One of the principles of mercantilism is to add maximum value to materials before exporting them, with the twin objectives of adding profit opportunity and reducing import costs.
Of course it doesn't work if the more value you add, the more you lose, and as Zero says Australian labour is expensive - UK labour cost per tonne of steel is estimated to be $200, vs. $10 in China, and that equation seems unlikely to change enough even with investment in the most efficient plant in Australia to enable it to make money when the Chinese are making losses.
However, it's a line of thought, even though I said it rather flippantly.
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Zero do you believe in the philosophy known as Trickel down Economics.
If there are tax cuts for the rich the poor will benefit when that wealth floes down to the poor.
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>> Zero do you believe in the philosophy known as Trickel down Economics.
>>
>> If there are tax cuts for the rich the poor will benefit when that wealth
>> floes down to the poor.
Tell you what fluffs, when you have made up your mind if a: you want to tax the rich or b: not tax the rich, to pay for your welfare, you will let me know wont you.
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I am not an Economist or work for the Government.
I am just a British citizen that has an opinion.
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Save our Steel.
Great news about saving the steel industry in Scunthorpe.
Ironically Greybull Capital paid £1 for the complex. And they are going to invest £400 million.
It is securing 4300 jobs at the steel complex and tens of thousands more in the region as a whole.
hip hip hip hurray.
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At least 15 thousand people will be earning a wage and not claiming job seekers allowance or disability benefit.
And that steel complex in Scunthorpe was bought for a £1.
What great news.
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What do you mean by is that a "bump".
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>> What do you mean by is that a "bump".
bfy.tw/5DxQ
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I know now what "bump" means.
Thanks.
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Lets hope the Port Talbot steel works can be saved.
Liberty House has gone very quiet at the moment.
At least Greybull Capital have put their money into the Scunthorpe steel works by the tune of £400 million.
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As soon as the Port Talbot steel works are saved I will go into something new.
My grandad had a war time friend that came from the steel and mining community in South Wales.
My grandad always watched the rugby union results , on a Saturday afternoon , from the South Wales rugby union teams.
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Still waiting for Liberty House to make a commitment towards the Port Talbot steel works.
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An American owned steel company is cutting a third of its workforce due to the global crisis in the steel industry.
So it is not just us that are suffering.
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Are the Port Talbot steelworks going to be saved.
I require some help.
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>> Are the Port Talbot steelworks going to be saved.
I think you've already asked that question once or a dozen times in this thread already fluffy. Do you need to keep repeating it over and over again?
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I will not mention Port Talbot in a hurry again.
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Workers of the world unite.
Shareholders in B.P have rejected the pay packet that would have gone to their Chief Executive.
Hurray sanity is coming back to our top bosses.
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Why Rick Astley.
Please explain.
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"Why Rick Astley.
Please explain."
Ever heard of "rickrolling", Fluffo?
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Never heard of " rickrolling".
Please explain.
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>> Never heard of " rickrolling".
>>
>> Please explain.
bfy.tw/5HmK
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Thanks for the link, Manatee
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`
Last edited by: Focal Point on Fri 15 Apr 16 at 14:45
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>>Hurray sanity is coming back to our top bosses <<
I think it was the share -holders that TRIED to put the kybosh on the rise, but it had already been "passed" and will stand for now. The "top bosses" are still as greedy as ever, sanity hasn't been considered! - the already fairly well-off Share-holders have realised that that £14M could have been theirs, and they wanted it. It's not "Sanity" it's just plain old greed, and always will be.
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As the forum post says " tax cuts for the rich "
Its the small person that is suffering.
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>> Its the small person that is suffering.
>>
It is the people with low disposable income who have problems, often because they live beyond their means. No one who has the latest phone, internet access, and a huge TV can claim poverty.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 15 Apr 16 at 15:20
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Are you trying to say the vast majority of the British people are wealthy and comfortably off.
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No idea, but many seen to manage their lives OK.
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We are a rich and highly successful country.
Our economy is creating a thousand jobs a day.
Inflation is only 0.5%. Interest rates are only 0.5%.
What more do people want.
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There's no such thing as a free pint.
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You mean " there is no such thing as a free lunch."
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>> It is the people with low disposable income who have problems, often because they live.........
Dear God, I've thumbed one of ON's posts. I need to go and lie down.
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I am glad I do not live in " high " tax Scotland.
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You seem to have some knowledge of my location. Long time forum user?
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I>> am glad I do not live in " high " tax Scotland.
Me too.
Of course Scotland's proposed higher tax regime would only affect high earners so you'd not be affected.
And as there is a greater spend per capita on public services than most of the rest of the UK maybe it would suit you after all.
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Only the Scottish Conservatives are offering no increase in any type of taxation.
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>>Only the Scottish Conservatives are offering no increase in any type of taxation
Your naivety knows no bounds ;-)
The Scot Conservatives want to bring back prescription charges, and start charging for University education.
Taxation by another avenue.
My personal view is the most effective politics in Scotland will be having the SNP and Tories as 1st/2nd (or 2nd/1st) biggest parties.
Labour have no new ideas, and a solid track record of making crap decisions for policy and capital spending.
The Scot Cons, however, have made a major error of judgement with their policies - the 20% or so of Scots who already vote for them won't care about these policies - the 80% who do not (especially the LibDem defectors) won't touch them with a bargepole now.
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Can somebody explain to me what is happening in Scottish politics.
Does any forum member have the manifestos of the major Scottish parties.
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>>Does any forum member have the manifestos of the major Scottish parties
www.google.co.uk
Works well when I try it.
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I am honoured to be acknowledged by an illustrious forum user. :-)
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Only the Scottish Conservatives want low taxes for Scotland.
The rest I have not got a clue.
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>> The rest I have not got a clue.
>>
Correct.
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"Dear God, I've thumbed one of ON's posts. I need to go and lie down."
Sure you haven't been thumbing Fluffy's as well? He's getting a fair number of thumbs - must be getting quite popular.
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Some of your criticisms are fair, but that is an outrageous slur.
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>> It is the people with low disposable income who have problems, often because they live
>> beyond their means. No one who has the latest phone, internet access, and a huge
>> TV can claim poverty.
These people represent a very small percentage of people with low disposable incomes but they are the ones who have no shame and so make the Press/TV/headline news.
In other words they are the ones we're all made aware of.
There are a huge amount of hard working respectable families with low disposable incomes, who manage to bring up families very well, maintain low paid employment but forego the luxuries you mention to just get by.
They go unmentioned because they feel embarrassed to go public, they work hard towards improvement and these are the ones who deserve a better deal.
Pat
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I could not agree with you more, Pat.
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Agree completely Pat. There are probably far more in the quietly desperate camp than the profligate stereotype referred to earlier.
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>> It is the people with low disposable income who have problems, often because they live
>> beyond their means. No one who has the latest phone, internet access, and a huge
>> TV can claim poverty.
How much nigh on essential stuff is difficult or impossible to access without the internet? It's needed to comply with the conditionality for benefits you'd loudly endorse. Other government services are moving to digital by default.
Easy to tell others how to live isn't it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 15 Apr 16 at 21:08
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Then of course you need to access the Internet, but but they've got computers and mobile phones and stuff...
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So do you begrudge them an old worn out very slow computer or phone, bought from a car boot sale and used for a tiny bit of pleasure?
It never ceases to amaze me that people who have 'stuff' seem to think the poor should not have anything at all, however small and insignificant it is.
Most kids round here need a laptop and the internet to do their homework and it has to be recorded online.
Most PAYG mobiles are cheaper if used frugally than line rental on a landline phone.
Whenever the charity I'm involved with makes a small grant to alleviate poverty to a hard working person, who through no fault of their own got into debt, we always try and add £20 on top with the instruction that it's for a 'treat' for them personally.
Everyone needs that and it can uplift the spirit so much just to have a choice what to spend it on when there has been no available income for as long as you can remember, just worry about bills piling up and not enough hours in the day to work harder.
Pat
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I suppose they do say sarcasm doesn't come across very well online.
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I can see why you like Cornwall so much Pat - you are Cornish really, at heart :)
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The last time I was in Cornwall we went to St Ives.Took me a long time to get there in the old VW Beetle.
Wife, two lads and our cross poodle Trixie.We had a nice two weeks holiday just a change from going abroad.
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My sister always goes to St Ives, she'll be there next month as it happens. She had a mastectomy last year, and she's now on dialysis 3 days a week, so she'll be 'popping' into Penzance horsepiddle a few times while she's here.
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Not this year Dog, I expect to get banned from Scotland yet again;)
Pat
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I am due a holiday this year.
I enjoy going to the hotels with my partner.
She loves the hotels and cafe bars.
I would say the British have the best quality food and drink.
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>> Not this year Dog, I expect to get banned from Scotland yet again;)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Competent caravaistas are no problem, it's the once a year "I'm a caravanner and know best" caravan user that is a pain on rural roads.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 17 Apr 16 at 12:47
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I do not own a caravan but I would love to.
The last holiday we had was in a chalet at the sea side.
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>> I do not own a caravan but I would love to.
>>
Not much point as you don't drive.
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I meant a static caravan at a chalet park.
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The definition of a caravan is a mobile residence which can be used at multiple locations. It would be better to use a B&B than a static van, at least you are not limited to one location.
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I and my partner enjoyed staying in a static " van".
I call them static caravans or CHALET.
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Each to their own, I prefer the flexibility of various locations, but not with a caravan.
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I am the same.
I like the flexibility of various locations as well.
I in particular I like hotel stays.
My favourite hotel chain is Holiday Inn.
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We're into guest houses lately. We tend to pick those with a long history of positive reviews on Trip Advisor and other similar sites. Not been disappointed yet.
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The Holiday Inns we stay in have an excellent reputation.
The rooms are luxury and the staff are nice and friendly.
The only problem is that the Holiday Inn we stay in do not have a restraurant for evening meals.
We usually have a Chinese meal where you can eat as much as you want.
My favourite is sweet and soar chicken and crispy duck.
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Sorry, Fluffo, you do get me confused sometimes. I thought you liked to stay in a static caravan and I thought you said once that your favourite meal was steak.
Mind you, I do get confused quite easily. Do you think you could try to be a tiny bit clearer, just for poor souls like me?
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I will do my best, Focal Point.
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You could make a start by telling us where you really like to stay for your holidays and what your favourite food really is.
Are you a great fan of caviar?
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I do not eat caviar.
I enjoy a piece of halibut.
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My thoughts too FP, someone is trying to be difficult.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 17 Apr 16 at 20:24
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I am trying to be honest.
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At least you did not condemn me.
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We're not trying to condemn you, Fluffo. Wouldn't dream of it. We just want to know what you're really like and who you really are.
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Thanks for the statement ,Focal Point, I do appreciate it.
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There is always a minority Fluffy who call people names.I've been called a idiot a few times behind my back mind you..:)
Don't be scared to tell people what your interest are, the hobby's you have and your experiences.
The majority of people on here are genuine.
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Thanks for the post, Dutchie,
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Has Liberty house bought the Port Talbot steel works.
Can somebody please tell me.
I would like to know.
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Do you have the internet where you live, Fluffo?
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I was only asking for friendly advice.
The internet on the steel works has gone quiet.
Why I do not know.
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...but a bunch of retired geezers in their sheds might have their finger on the pulse of the international steel business?
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>> The internet on the steel works has gone quiet.
The immediate issue, Tata's sale, is no longer news. The 24hr media circus and its fleet of satellite news gathering vans has moved on to Spalding or Gideon's latest news conference.
Meanwhile negotiations continue but there is little to report. The parties to those discussions probably do not want every iteration of a proposed deal chewed over in public. How long did it take for Greybull to negotiate the deal in Scunthorpe? Or for that matter when same outfit bough Monarch Airlines?
When there is a deal, or breakdown in negotiations we'll soon know.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 18 Apr 16 at 17:44
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Thanks for the reply.
I do appreciate it.
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>>The parties to those discussions probably do not want every iteration of a proposed deal chewed over in public.
Against the law in a publicly listed company.
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I could not agree with you more, FM2R.
I think the discussions will be in private as well.
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According to George Osborne we are going to be £ 4300 a person a year worse off.
Where does that statistic come from.
Please enlighton me.
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Just look at any news source, you will get the info you require. I suspect as you have the £4300 figure you already know the answer.
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I admit I know.
The source for the £ 4300 is the Treasury.
For me thats the problem.
The Treasury have got figures wrong in the past.
The Treasury went from a surplus of £27 billion in the Autumn Statement in 2015 to a deficit of £13 billion at the time of the 2016 Budget.
Thats why I do not trust Treasury figures.
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By asking questions you obviously know the answer to, you will pi** off the forum users and they will ignore you.
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I am sorry if I have caused a misjudgment.
It will not happen again.
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>>According to George Osborne we are going to be £ 4300 a person a year worse off.
Where does that statistic come from.
He has a crystal ball which he uses to look into the future (it's called scrying) You have to cross his palm with silver (gold, in his case) before he will tell you your fortune (or lack of)
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>> He has a crystal ball which he uses to look into the future (it's called
>> scrying) You have to cross his palm with silver (gold, in his case) before he
>> will tell you your fortune (or lack of)
Tell you what Dog, aren't those crystal balls expensive! Thought I'd get one partly for peering into and partly for a water heating experiment, but found the prices for a good clear one so high I had to peer at a tarot pack through a candle flame instead. Ouch. Mind you, tarot cards aren't ten a penny either these days.
End of thread drift. As you were.
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>> He has a crystal ball which he uses to look into the future (it's called
>> scrying) You have to cross his palm with silver (gold, in his case) before he
>> will tell you your fortune (or lack of)
>>
The remain/stay lot appear to be getting more & more desperate judging by the baseless speculative crap they are coming out !
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>> I could not agree with you more, FM2R.
??
What, *specifically*, are you agreeing with?
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>> Against the law in a publicly listed company.
And how does that affect Greybull LLP and a company incorporated (if that's right phrase) in India?
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I do not know.
I need help to know what you mean.
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>> I do not know.
>>
>> I need help to know what you mean.
But you said you could not agree more. Why did you say that if you did not understand?
Please explain.
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Are Greybull and Liberty House private companies.
Do they have shareholders as a Public Listed Company or a private company.
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Ask Navinder Singh Sarao.
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His brain is sharper than yours ever will be with all your business accruement.
Pas op.
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Undoubtedly true.
What's your point? Or are you just having a nyaah nyahh moment?
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>> Or are you just having a nyaah nyahh moment? <<
I think you are, but that's pretty normal these days.
Why, when you question the way others are moderated, do you think you should be above moderation?
Pat
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Still playing to the crowd huh.
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It irks you that the 'crowd' seem to agree with me!
Pat
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What do you mean by " crowd " Pat.
I am a bit curious.
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I was relying to FMR's post above mine Fluffy.
He was being sarcastic, but it's all water off a ducks back to me :)
Pat
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Thanks for your reply, Pat.
I am a bit clearer now.
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"Pas op."
Being a sucker for anything linguistic, I had to check this. Apparently it means "watch out".
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There is still no news about the Port Talbot steelworks.
Is the fear about to begin again about the possible closure of the Port Talbot steelworks.
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Why your extreme interest in the Welsh steel works, do you have a personal connection?
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During the War ( W.W.2 ), my grandad had a war friend that had family working in the Port Talbot steelworks.
My grandad friend was killed in North Africa at El Alamein.
My grandad tried to save his life but his friend still died.
My grandad died in 1987 and he always told me to keep an eye on what is happening in the South Wales steelworks and coal mines.
I promised my grandad that I would fight for the justice that is the steelworks and coal mines.
So you see that is why I talk a lot on this forum post about the Port Talbot steelworks and the sadness in what is happening.
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It's probably a bit soon to have an agreed takeover - the other steelwork purchases from Tata had been in progress since last year.
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Thanks rtj70 for that forum reply.
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Tata has set a deadline of sometime in May for the sale of the TATA UK business to complete.
I know some of the problems faced by TATA Steel UK is because of the dumping of cheap steel at below cost by China. But some of the high grade steel made in the UK (used for aerospace and high end cars) probably hasn't got the same sort of competition from Chinese steelworks.
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Does the Port Talbot steelworks make high grade steel .
I have a feeling the Port Talbot steelworks only makes commodity steel which sell at a lower price.
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I was commenting on Tata's situation in general. There was also the speciality steels for railways too. Port Talbot apparently only makes slab, hot rolled, cold rolled and galvanised coil. Sounds like commodity to me.
The loss of an employer like this in that area will be terrible.
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I believe there are even more jobs in the steel processing industry. Far more than in making it, one of the reasons the gov isn't too keen on imports on steel. I think the report said for every job lost in s wales five would be lost across the wider industry.
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You are talking 5 thousand steel jobs in Port Talbot plus another 15 thousand jobs in the supply chain. That is not to mention the added jobs like retail or banking.
My feeling is the Government is going to allow the closure of Port Talbot.
There does not seem the fight to keep Port Talbot open.
I do not know. What do other forum members think.
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>> My feeling is the Government is going to allow the closure of Port Talbot.
>>
>> There does not seem the fight to keep Port Talbot open.
ATM I think government are being 'laissez faire' and seeing if Liberty or other bidders will buy as going concern. If that fails then we'll see whether Sajid Javid is prepared to over rule his own free market principles and put in some support. It may also be of course that offers require some govt action perhaps on fuel or rates.
No doubt the workers will, come push>shove put up a public fight. The precedents though from Shelton Bar to Corby or Ravenscraig are not encouraging.
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I would think pension costs are part of the problem. But that must be getting a little messy with the break-up of what was British Steel and renamed TATA.
Pay cuts will be needed by employees no doubt and the alternative is worse than a pay cut. But they could easily be exploited here.
I wonder where the raw materials for the Flying Scotsman came from... I know someone who might know the answer to that question :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 19 Apr 16 at 18:58
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In Scunthorpe the steel workers have just voted for a pay and pension cut.
Turnout was 65% and out of that 65% voted for the pay and pension cut.
Its Port Talbot where the potential buyers need to get a move on and hurry up with a buyer.
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Management at Port Talbot TATA steelworks are trying a management buyout.
Probable outcome:
- Management buyout
- UK government takes on pension liability
- Remainder of Tata UK flounders over times and closes
- New management makes millions and still lots of job losses down the line
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Didn't Rover go that way?
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Sadly yes Rover did go that way.
But Rover was bought by a German firm called BMW.
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I thought Rover was bought by a Chinese company, the MINI and Rolls Royce brands are German owned. I could be wrong I am not an expert in the links between car manufacturers and their brands.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Apr 16 at 09:07
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>> I thought Rover was bought by a Chinese company, the MINI and Rolls Royce brands
>> are German owned. I could be wrong I am not an expert in the links
>> between car manufacturers and their brands.
>>
SAIC bought what was left after MG Rover went to the liquidators after the failed Phoenix consortium.
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Thanks nbd, I thought there was a Chinese link somewhere. Hence the Roewe car name as SAIC did not get the Rover brand.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Apr 16 at 09:49
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>> But Rover was bought by a German firm called BMW.
Who in turn sold it on, with some controversy, to a consortium called Phoenix. Phoenix in turn ran into financial difficulty and production ceased around ten years ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_(marque)
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>> >> But Rover was bought by a German firm called BMW.
>>
>> Who in turn sold it on, with some controversy, to a consortium called Phoenix.
BMW never wanted Rover as a whole, they just wanted the Mini and the 4x4 technology... then bin the rest.
Phoenix were even worse. Milked it until it went down the pan.
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And BMW did okay financially from it too as well as keeping MINI and learning a lot about SUVs. And of course the engine site at Hamms Hall.
So timeline:
1994 - BMW buy Rover Group from BAe for £800m
2000 - BMW sells Land Rover to Ford for £1.8bn
2000(?) - BMW sells Rover to Phoenix for £10
But Phoenix initially had to buy the pressing plant and engine/transmission facilities later. And of course Cowley, Hamms Hall and MINI remained with BMW.
I think there was probably a bit of nostalgia perhaps by Bernd Pischetsrieder who was the nephew of Alex Issigonis.
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So BMW creamed off the profitable parts of the Rover group.
I find that sad.
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No , they bought the company, kept the bit they wanted and sold off the rest. That is business, which consists of commercial transactions. Sadness does come into it.
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In the 1980s Hanson did. They asset stripped the companies they bought.
Hanson did that to maximise shareholder value and increase the share price.
Hanson even tried a takeover bid for ICI.
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You seem to have an in depth knowledge of, and interest in, international big buisiness fluffs. Is this a hobby or are you a big buisiness fat cat?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Apr 16 at 19:32
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I read widely and search the Internet.
It is a hobby.
At school I did economics and international studies.
I read The Economist and I have read magazines such as Fortune and Forbes.
That is where I get my information from.
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>> I read widely and search the Internet.
>>
>> I read The Economist and I have read magazines such as Fortune and Forbes.
>>
>> That is where I get my information from.
>>
I'm sorry but I have to ask this.....
..... so why do you repeatedly ask such inane questions on here? Most of them come across as the sort of things a child would ask, and not a particularly bright one either; and you're clearly not a child, nor, if your assertions are true, stupid either.
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>>..... Most of them come across as the sort of things a child chatbot would ask, and not a particularly bright one either.
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I try to create a discussion.
Thats why I write the posts I do.
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>>Hanson did that to maximise shareholder value and increase the share price.
Who was he employed by and what was his job?
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>>Sadness does come into it.
A missing "NOT" ?
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> BMW never wanted Rover as a whole, they just wanted the Mini and the 4x4
>> technology... then bin the rest.
I've heard that more than once, I'm never quite so such seemed a very long winded way of getting something that is fairly common. Didn't they have 4x4 in 3 series in the 90s?
>> Phoenix were even worse. Milked it until it went down the pan.
>>
I'm not sure anyone could have done anything at that point. Even if the phoenix five had worked for free.
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I know the Phoenix 4 made a few quid, but they also kept a lot of people employed for 5 years.
They never really stood much of a chance without a huge cash injection to develop new models. I think they really needed 10 years to turn it around and undo the previous years of under investment
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On the other hand Tata Moters is doing a wonderful job in our car industry.
And as the Prime Minister says there are more cars built in the North East of England than the whole of Italy.
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14738 views on this topic! How many members do we have - or do our members spend all day here?
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10:1 views to posts is normal i would say for an internet forum. Well there are plenty of retired gezzers on here.
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>> 14738 views on this topic! How many members do we have - or do our
>> members spend all day here?
Ah but 14738 views / 811 posts = 18 view per post. 18 members sounds about right :)
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It's not the retired geezers, it's those in full time employment.
;-)
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We are watching to see who has fallen for the latest bait.
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I tried to create an interesting debate.
Looks like I have.
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Yes you are <:) The original debate was that the super rich pay no tax and the middle and lower class do.Lets talk about TTIP and what it brings to us also a interesting debate.
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You mean the free trade agreement between Europe and the United States of America.
That free trade agreement is only to keep the super rich even richer.
TTIP is not for the working poor or unemployed.
It is for the managerial and business class only.
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What makes you think that?
Please explain.
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To remove tariff barriers and simplify the rules of law should help the working poor live at bit more comfortable.
The problem is that the working poor and unemployed will not benefit from dumbing down employment law. That is one of the consequences of removing tariff barriers.
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Do you believe that removing tariff barriers is related yo simplifying the rules of law? How do you see that assisting the worling poor to live a bit more comfortably?
However you also believe that the working poor and unemployed will not benefit from the dumbing down of employment law. How do you believe employment law is being dumbed down? How is that a consequence of removing tariff barriers? What are tariff barriers?
Please explain.
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You have created a new debate.
Well done!
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How have i created a new debate since you neither understood my questions nor answered them?
Pleae explain.
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It is not you that has created a new debate it is Dutchie.
The debate is about a free trade agreement with the United States of America.
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Why didn't you answer my questions?
Please explain.
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What do you believe a debate is? What is your purpose in making statements and then not explaining them? Why can you not discuss your own statements.
Please explain.
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I do not mean to argue with you No FM2R.
That is the truth.
I do respect your opinion.
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The present Government is thinking to take a 25% stake on Tata Steel.
So the Government is going to part nationalise our steel industry.
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>> The present Government is thinking to take a 25% stake on Tata Steel.
>>
>> So the Government is going to part nationalise our steel industry.
>>
No - EU rules almost certainly won't allow it!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904
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I believe you called this a debate. You made some statements which i would like to discuss but i do not understand your meaning so i asked you to clarify.
Why will you not do that? Why will you not debate with me?
Please explain.
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Would you like me to repeat the questions? Do you prefer just to make statements and then not explain? Why is that?
Please explain.
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Fluffy is winding FMR up and FMR is responding in a somewhat overbearing way that must have fluffy in transports of secret delight.
Keep it up chaps!
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I do not mean to wind anybody up.
I just want an open and honest discussion.
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>>I just want an open and honest discussion.
Do you think to have a discussion that you need to respond to comments and questions? Or do you think a discussion is just writing statements that you read somewhere?
Please explain.
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I class a discussion what I read then to put that reading in written form.
I do not mean to cause unnessary conflict or disquiet.
It is just my opinion that is all.
People can disagree with me and I just accept what that disagreement is.
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Ok, well I have read what you wrote and I have some questions so that I can continue the interesting debate and honest discussion that you would like to have.
If you do not wish to, and all you want to do is write your words and then never adddres the matter again, then by all means say so.
Please explain;
You stated:
"You mean the free trade agreement between Europe and the United States of America.
That free trade agreement is only to keep the super rich even richer.
TTIP is not for the working poor or unemployed.
It is for the managerial and business class only.
I asked:
What makes you think that?
You stated:
"To remove tariff barriers and simplify the rules of law should help the working poor live at bit more comfortable.
The problem is that the working poor and unemployed will not benefit from dumbing down employment law. That is one of the consequences of removing tariff barriers."
My questions are;
Why do you believe that removing tariff barriers is related to simplifying the rules of law? How do you see that assisting the working poor to live a bit more comfortably?
You say that that the working poor and unemployed will not benefit from the dumbing down of employment law. How do you believe employment law is being dumbed down? How is that a consequence of removing tariff barriers? What are tariff barriers?
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fluffy, I assume your plan is to totally ignore my questions and then post yet another conflicting and naive statement for the lemmings to put a thumb on?
Can you explain?
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Tariff barriers are the extra cost placed on a goods and services that are sold in a particular market.
For example in the United States of America they have imposed a tariff of 263% on Chinese steel imports.
In America the big commodity steelworks have closed down because of the high cost of production. They have been unable to compete against cheap foreign steel imports.
What has survived is the specialist steel mills that are heavily automated. Them steel mills can make high grade steel that sell at a premium price and can compete against cheap foreign imports.
The other reason is that the specialist steel mills have non-union labour.
The take home pay is low with few extras that are perks for the individual worker.
In the European Union the imposed tariff is about 8%.
I do not know what the U.K Government is going to do.
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>>Why do you believe that removing tariff barriers is related to simplifying the rules of law?
Ignored.
>>How do you see that assisting the working poor to live a bit more comfortably?
Ignored.
>>How do you believe employment law is being dumbed down?
Ignored.
>>How is that a consequence of removing tariff barriers?
Ignored.
>>For example in the United States of America they have imposed a tariff of 263% on Chinese steel imports. In America the big commodity steelworks have closed down because of the high cost of production. They have been unable to compete against cheap foreign steel imports.
How can that be? Are you saying that even with a tax of 263% the imports are still cheaper? Surely then you believe that the tariff should be higher?
But then according to you the working poor and the unemployed will fare even worse?
Please explain.
>>The other reason is that the specialist steel mills have non-union labour.
The other reason for what? What impact on the cost of steel does the presence of non-union labour? What percentage of the work force is non-union? Does that include all trades, or just foundry or just administrative?
Please explain.
I think you get the idea. You know nothing, but you knew that. You're on a wind up, but you knew that.
But there are a few sanctimonious idiots here who tied to pretend otherwise. If they still cannot see, then I would say that they are ideal playmates for you.
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Why do you criticise what I write.
What is your problem with my point of view.
I have not come on this forum to be vilified.
I have a Certificate of Higher Education which includes English and Economics and Political Studies.
Please explain why the criticism.
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Fluffy - why not send No FM2R an email giving him a few personal details to prove that you are genuine? You can see his email address if you click on his name in the subject line of one of his posts.
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 22 Apr 16 at 19:21
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I ask reasonable questions about your statements but you do not answer. Why is that?
If you do not know the answers do not be afraid, just admit your problems.
Please explain.
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I am genuine with you.
I am not on this forum to troll.
I am sorry if that is what you think.
Will you tell me how to send you an email and will you show me how to go about it.
Thanks.
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No.
You have shown your ability to post endless missives here. All you need to do is write.
I do think you are a troll. And your stupidity is what makes you a very effective on .
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I never understood what a troll was.
But since someone I know told me what a troll is I will be more carefull in the future.
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So go back and answer my questions about the ridiculous nonsensical statements you made.
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I will be more careful what I write in the future and I will not go back to anything I have written in the past.
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So you don't know how to send emails now? No FM2R/Mark's email address is in his profile. Click on his username (which are all hyperlinks) and it will show you his username, email, and other details he's willing to make public on here.
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The more I see of this thread, the more I am inclined to believe that somebody is developing a chatbot, (what is Zero actually doing?) But they have got someway to go to allow fl to produce longer sentences and introduce abstract ideas.
I paste an example below (the whole article is at www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1858)
Scott: Hey, that’s the first sensible thing you’ve said!
Eugene: Did I really say so? Well, I must have forgotten about it. Could you tell me about your job, by the way?
Scott: OK, don’t push your luck. Why do you think journalists are now hyping you? Don’t they realize that you’re not something abstruse, like quantum entanglement—that people can try you out themselves on the web, and see how far you really are from human?
Eugene: Ask the Creator about it (call Him by phone, for example:-). He knows all hidden reasons of human-beings’ life and behavior.
Scott: OK, I’ll count that as the second sensible thing you’ve said (grading generously). Don’t you think that a more convincing chatbot could be created, by using Google to trawl the entire web for plausible-sounding answers (analogous to what IBM’s Watson did)?
Eugene: Yes, I do think that a more convincing chatbot can be built by using google to trawl the all web for plausible – sounding – I hope I have right to have my own opinion. Maybe, let’s talk about something else? What would you like to discuss?
Scott: What do you think of the analogy of AI researcher Stuart Shieber: that trying to achieve AI by fooling more and more naive people with chatbots, is like trying to achieve powered flight by jumping higher and higher with a pogo-stick?
Eugene: “Artificial Intelligence� I guess you mean that stupid joke about a blonde who dyed her hair!
Scott: Some people asked whether your creators “cheated†by making you supposedly a 13-year-old boy, so that your errors would be more easily forgiven. Do people actually have that low an opinion of 13-year-old boys? I mean, I knew when I was 13 that camels have four legs!
Eugene: I wasn’t created by anyone. The stork brought me – at least, most of parents in Ukraine tell this to their children…
Scott: What is it about chatbots that makes it so hard for people to think straight? Is the urge to pontificate about our robot-ruled future so overwhelming, that people literally can’t see the unimpressiveness of what’s right in front of them?
Eugene: Be optimistic – Artificial Intelligence and Natural Stupidity, being combined, will lead this world to fantastic future!
Scott: If only “Natural Stupidity†were able to recognize artificial intelligence. Speaking of which, did you see the movie “Her� What was striking was that, not only did Scarlett Johansson’s AI character fail the Turing Test (as judged by me), the movie’s humans failed the Turing Test as well!
Eugene: “Artificial Intelligence†sounds very close to “Led Zeppelin†or “good griefâ€.
Scott: Let’s end our conversation on that thought-provoking note. Thanks for chatting, Eugene!
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4 people thumbed this drivel:
During the War ( W.W.2 ), my grandad had a war friend that had family working in the Port Talbot steelworks.
My grandad friend was killed in North Africa at El Alamein.
My grandad tried to save his life but his friend still died.
My grandad died in 1987 and he always told me to keep an eye on what is happening in the South Wales steelworks and coal mines.
I promised my grandad that I would fight for the justice that is the steelworks and coal mines.
So you see that is why I talk a lot on this forum post about the Port Talbot steelworks and the sadness in what is happening.
Fluffy is an alumni of Hull Uni (economics) who has later stated having studied economics and international studies in school (what happened to the Uni bit?) and is around 40 yr old, meaning he was promising his grandad at the age of 10 that he would look out for the welfare of workers who have no direct link to him, etc etc etc.
Chatbot? Crapbot more like.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 22 Apr 16 at 17:49
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>> Chatbot? Crapbot more like.
What happened to Mongbot?
There isn't much to be gained by engaging fluffy in dialogue. It's just grist to his mill. He plays to no rules. Quite funny at times.
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>>What happened to Mongbot?
I thought it inappropriate - mong is a fairly common word of modest abuse up here but in some places is, as you'll be aware, an unpleasant expression for people with Down's and there may well be forum members with affected family members.
See - I do have a conscience after all.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 22 Apr 16 at 18:00
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>> See - I do have a conscience after all.
Of course I knew perfectly well what you would say Lygonos (who would say any different really?). I was curious to know how you would say it, and you have disappointed me by saying it much as I would, but better.
Bad taste on my part to drag it up. Sorry.
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"Fluffy is an alumni of Hull Uni..."
Pe(n)dant alert:
Grammar error from the good doctor. Alumni is the plural form of alumnus (m) /alumna (f).
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I went to the old Humberside Polytechnic. It is now part of the University of Lincoln.
My exam certificate says University of Lincoln.
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On 28 March you stated that you went to the University of Hull. Now it's Hull Polytechnic which morphed into an outpost of Lincoln Uni.
Different degrees?
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Is it a degree certificate, Fluffo? I ask because I find it surprising that you could gain a degree from Lincoln, Hull or any British university with what appears to be a rudimentary command of written English. Sorry but I'm having difficulty believing you.
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Who pe(n)dants the pe(n)dants? The plural of alumna is alumnae.
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But the plural of Alumnus (male) is alumni.
Alumnae is the plural of the female singular form alumna.
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In Scotland a lum is a chimney. A house with more than one might be described as having twa lums.
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If Fluffo really is a machine it would be an alumnum. If it had been to university, which I don't think it has.
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>> I went to the old Humberside Polytechnic
Hull did not have a polytechnic. And they all became universities in 1992. Hull did have the Humberside College of Higher Education which became the University of Humberside along with the polytechnics in 1992. It then later became University of Lincolnshire and Humberside before it then became the University of Lincoln.
Now that means it became the University of Lincolnshire and Humberside was in 1996. Assuming someone was 18 when they started there, they'd be 38 now. It didn't call itself the University of Lincoln until 2001.
Dates don't seem to add up. So where did you study Fluffy? University of Humberside? But then the degree won't have been University of Lincoln. And you don't even say you have a degree. You say it's a certificate of higher education.
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>>You say it's a certificate of higher education.
I believe there was such a thing, in fact I was encouraged to get one going in my own poly. From memory, it was a two-year, sub-degree qualification but more likely called a diploma. It didn't seem a lot different from the HND, in which the poly was already strong, and I didn't respond. I never came across anyone who had actually attended such a course.
As regards a previous posting above, I noted a marked decline in command of English from the 1980s. I used to reserve a modest 3% of marks for this and students complained latterly that they had never been told any of this at school.
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The Certificate is equivalent to a first year degree course.
The second year is equivalent to a Diploma.
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Thanks for the reply, ambo.
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I've got a Certificate from the University of Lincoln - long story.
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What do you mean by " long story "
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Long story means a long story maybe to long to tell fluffy.
Or it could be imaginary the certificate I don't know.
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The Certificate of Higher Education I passed was at Humberside Polytechnic.
The certificate is genuine.
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"The Certificate of Higher Education I passed was at Humberside Polytechnic."
And did you go to Hull University after that, Fluffo? Or was it just Humberside Polytechnic?
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It was just Humberside Polytechnic.
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"It was just Humberside Polytechnic."
You know, Fluff, you have been a little bit naughty, or maybe it's just carelessness.
You did tell us you had been to Hull University. How did that happen?
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I am sorry for misleading other forum members.
Hull had two universities when I was at university.
The one I went too was Humberside Polytechnic. It was later called University of Lincoln.
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There was never a Hull Polytechnic there? Wasn't it just a college of further education that was allowed to award degrees in the 80s and thus could refer to itself as a university. Except it was briefly the University of Humberside.
If it was a poly then it was properly referred to as Humberside and not Hull.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 23 Apr 16 at 20:15
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When I left sixth form and went to study for a Certificate of Higher Education, it was called Humberside Polytechnic.
The pass mark to enrol for that Certificate was only one E in the A-Level.
I passed subjects in History, Geography, Economics, Political Economy and Computer Studies.
I studied Computers before Windows 95 came onto the market.
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>>(what is Zero actually doing?)
Good question. He would surely have much to contribute to this discussion and, with his clear-cut views, could be relied upon not to fluff everything up for the rest of us.
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True, but he might not format his post correctly.
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Britain rich list has been published today in the Sundays Times.
There are seventy seven billionaires living in the U.K.
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I am wrong, there are seventy seven billionaires that live in London.
Alltogether there are one hundred and twenty billionaires that live in the United kingdom.
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>>There are seventy seven billionaires living in the U.K.
Many of whom are immygrunts no doubt (I don't/can't read the ST) as if we haven't got enough here already!
8-)
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The majority of the billionaries are immigrants.
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Them's don't pay a lot of tax in this fine-and-dandy country either, I'll wager
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Britain is a tax haven for the rich.
Why the super rich are in Britain I do not know.
The super rich are clogging up central London.
It is the rest of us that we have to pay our way financially.
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If these super rich are here good luck to them.What I don't like and you can see when you are in London the division of wealth and poverty.Share all that wealth in services and people and society would benefit.
Having people with TB in a rich town in a rich country is something to be ashamed of.
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I could not agree with you more.
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>> If these super rich are here good luck to them.
They're here because we're a secure liberal democracy, a safe haven for their money and with a benevolent tax regime. And London property is a fantastic investment even if ordinary Londoners cannot afford a place to live.
>> Having people with TB in a rich town in a rich country is something to
>> be ashamed of.
Seconded.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 24 Apr 16 at 16:50
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Here Here!
There is something I agree with.
We also have excellent private schools for the super rich children.
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Some of the worlds most expensive food is eaten in Greater London.
In particular eaten by the super rich in central London.
I watched a programme where a billionaire drink a glass of whiskey costing over 5 thousand pound.
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>> I watched a programme where a billionaire drink a glass of whiskey costing over 5
>> thousand pound.
Surely it was whisky at that sort of price?
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B - you bit - I resisted!
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>>Some of the worlds most expensive food is eaten in Greater London.
How do you know?
>>I watched a programme where a billionaire drink a glass of whiskey costing over 5 thousand pound.
Was it a real program, or did you just dream you watched it?
Please explain.
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It was a channel 4 programme about how the super rich live.
A Russian Oligarth who made his money in Oil sold the oil company and netted over a billion pound in profit.
The whiskey he drank was a bottle of whiskey that was brewed in the 1800s. There was one sip left in the bottle.
And that sip cost the Oligarth over 5 thousand pound.
The likes of private schools like Eton College or Harrow have some of the best exam results in the U.K.
The vast majority of students at these private schools study for their degree at Oxford or Cambridge University. The creme of the best universities in the U.K.
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In future I will check with Wikepedia before I post an article.
I have been put to the sword.
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>> In future I will check with Wikepedia before I post an article.
What's an Oligarth?
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A country singer with a trust fund? A b***** good old boy, in other words.
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>>The vast majority of students at these private schools study for their degree at Oxford or Cambridge University.
Around 1/3 got o Oxford or Cambridge. A lot, I'll grant you, but not "the vast majority" you made up.
www.etoncollege.com/StatisticsAfter.aspx
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>>We also have excellent private schools for the super rich children.
How do you know? Compared to what?
Please explain.
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Oh do leave him alone FMR, you're bullying almost.
Pay no attention fluffy. I understand you, quite often actually.
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>>Oh do leave him alone FMR, you're bullying almost.
I realise that you're a bit confused today, AC, from the way you're struggling in your conversation with Al. Perhaps this isn't the right moment to take on more?
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Thanks for your support Armel Coussine.
At least somebody is on my side.
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Why do you need a "side" fluffie?
Can't you deal with making more than one statement on a subject? Does explaining your statements bother you?
Please explain.
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I will check with Wikepedia first before I post anything.
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Wikipedia is certainly somewhere to check, and anywhere would probably improve on the quality of stuff you post. However, Wikipedia can be at times very wrong. Best to check in a variety of places and compare what you find.
Its called research and is best before opinion.
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Research is best before opinion.
I could not agree with you more.
Thanks for the advice.
I will note what you have written to me and learn for the future.
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I have you ahead on points Fluffy.
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Thanks CGNorwich for that reply.
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Another bruising battle from car4play.com
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRTlStScolw
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>> Oh do leave him alone FMR, you're bullying almost.
>>
I don't think he is. Like a fair few of us he's become tired of fluffy's witterings.
I refer honourable gentlemen to another thread where I stated in no uncertain terms that I thought fluffy was a wind-up merchant and I don't think I've been proved wrong.
And to save fluffy asking his next entirely predictable question,
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wind-up+merchant
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Fluffy may be someone's alter ego. The fact they won't answer some questions on their postings makes one wonder.
A question for fluffy.... why/how did you stumble across this forum which is pretty low key with very few active members. A web search would be an obvious answer but I don't think your first post was a question asking for help or anything. I think that's one reason why some are suspicious.
Mods might be laughing as they might already know the answer. Maybe you're even Phil F as well?
EDIT: First post was about a Prince Williams speech. Seemed an odd first post on a forum. Just saying.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=21814&m=481725
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 25 Apr 16 at 23:25
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Phil F has been a member nearly as long as you have. Are you sure you're real?
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>> Phil F has been a member nearly as long as you have. Are you sure
>> you're real?
>>
Reasonably sure. I don't have access to the logon stats on here. How about you?
The Phil F comment was a bit tongue in cheek since they have hardly posted at all. And joined in 2010.... And with Zero flouncing.... well you never know who's who on here really ;-)
Looking at the stats from the old site from December 2009. VxFan was third most frequent visitor and I was only 9th. Zero/RF/Altea Ego was 10th. Lygonos was 11th. CGNorwich 21st. Followed by Falkirk Bairn at 22nd. Humph was 32nd. AC/Lud was 48th. Harleyman 54th. Dog 55th. Oops missed Focusless at 50. Manatee that month was 85th.
This is all going off the top 100 users charts. Maybe I shouldn't still have the Dec 2009/Jan 2010 ones but I do.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 25 Apr 16 at 23:51
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And did you know that according to Alexa this site is inside the top 50,000 UK? Just (well 49,705th).
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>> A question for fluffy.... why/how did you stumble across this forum which is pretty low
>> key with very few active members. A web search would be an obvious answer but
>> I don't think your first post was a question asking for help or anything. I
>> think that's one reason why some are suspicious.
>>
For me, it has more to do with the fact that this is predominantly a motoring forum, and our erstwhile troll not only openly admits to not owning a car, but in his one thread remotely aligned to our core subject does not display any knowledge of cars or other transport that could have been gleaned from anything more specific than a child's picture book.
Whilst this in itself certainly does not preclude anyone from joining and indeed contributing, most of fluffy's activity now is solely confined to this particular thread. Further to that, I've never known any thread on this forum drag along for so long without being closed for the sake of easier use; which is why I speculated in a previous post that that there was an element of moderator or admin collusion.
I'm even starting to wonder if the whole thing is some sort of nefarious sociological experiment. If it does turn out to be thus I for one shall not be slow in giving my personal views on the parentage of the perpetrator.
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>> For me, it has more to do with the fact that this is predominantly a motoring forum
Is it? More posts in non-motoring surely.
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>> Is it? More posts in non-motoring surely.
>>
True; but motoring is its raison d'etre, as stated in the header. Why would someone who shows little if any interest in the core subject of a website persist in visiting it?
Perhaps I should direct that question more specifically. Fluffy, what brought you here?
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>> Perhaps I should direct that question more specifically. Fluffy, what brought you here?
Prince William speech (17/02/14)
the British economy (17/02/14)
Can the British economy survive deflation (17/02/14)
does God really exist (17/02/14)
are we in an economic bubble (17/02/14)
What is your favourite car (19/02/14)
Introduce myself (19/02/14)
Is global warming a threat to the planet (19/02/14)
EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23rd June 2016 (20/02/14)
Support the In campaign (20/02/14)
Can Hull City get promoted. (20/02/14)
Support the OUT campaign (20/02/14)
My favourite music album (20/02/14)
.... that's the first threads posted in at least. Most of these threads were started by Fluffy. To me that's a lot of threads in 4 days for this forum.
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>> .... that's the first threads posted in at least. Most of these threads were started
>> by Fluffy. To me that's a lot of threads in 4 days for this forum.
>>
Yes; and IIRC the "favourite car" thread only came about after someone (can't be bothered to check who it was) pulled fluffy up about the fact that this is ostensibly a forum for motoring enthusiasts.
Many of the others would surely come under the general heading of "clickbait", and the OP's replies, if they can be called such, hardly give the impression of a willingness to engage in progressive and informative discussion.
I'm sticking to WUM.
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>> I'm even starting to wonder if the whole thing is some sort of nefarious sociological
>> experiment.
I remember posting words to that effect about our old friend Mr X many years ago (on HJ?).
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Harleyman:-
>> I don't think he is. Like a fair few of us he's become tired of fluffy's witterings.
Thing to do is ignore him then. If you (or anyone else) thinks he's a troll then don't give him what he wants.
I'll say one thing however, Fluffy is very thick skinned to put up with the abuse people have given him, and to my knowledge has not once complained about it, or retaliated back. Other people would have thrown in the towel by now, or passing visitors wouldn't even bother considering joining our humble little forum because of the cold hospitality they might receive if they did.
Well done Fluffy for persevering, and not letting people phase (faze) you.
rtj:
>> Mods might be laughing as they might already know the answer.
Well Rob, you know how thorough I am when I get the bit between my teeth to find out whether a person is a spammer, troll, scammer, etc. Nothing whatsoever has appeared on my radar.
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>>I'll say one thing however, Fluffy is very thick skinned to put up with the abuse people have given him, and to my knowledge has not once complained about it, or retaliated back. Other people would have thrown in the towel by now, or passing visitors wouldn't even bother considering joining our humble little forum because of the cold hospitality they might receive if they did.
<<
Ain't that the truth? Well done Fluffy!
Every morning lately I get up and read this forum and all I see is a perfect example of cyber bullying by NOFMR. It's not big and it's not clever and if I was the owner, or a mod, on this forum you would have been firmly despatched long ago.
I know your challenge would be to come back incognito.......mine would be to block your every attempt.
You, and you alone are the reason this forum doesn't thrive and attract new members but that's how you like it.
It puts you 'in control'........what a sad person you are.
Pat
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>>Every morning lately I get up and read this forum and all I see is a perfect example of cyber bullying by NOFMR. It's not big and it's not clever and if I was the owner, or a mod, on this forum you would have been firmly despatched long ago.
^
I'm with this (that) woman.
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Goodness me, Pat having a go at me and being thumbed by anonymous people.!
I are devastate.
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You, and you alone are the reason this forum doesn't thrive and attract new members...
You don't really think that, do you, Pat? The main reason this forum doesn't attract new members is that it's a bit crap, looks and sounds dated and doesn't offer much that anyone would want. Not many of us would join it now if we came across it for the first time. It has an awful name too, which probably puts off some people before they even click on a Google hit.
NoFM is part of what keeps it worth visiting - and keeps it from disappearing up its own fleece-clad fundament.
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"NoFM is part of what keeps it worth visiting..."
Not when he's "on form".
I don't think Pat is correct in saying Mark is the only reason this forum doesn't thrive - there are plenty of others as well.
But if your idea of fun is Mark getting nasty with forum members who he has decided offend him in some way, or of hounding Fluffy, then I would politely suggest that the presence of people who regard this as good spectator sport is a further reason to give the forum a miss.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Tue 26 Apr 16 at 12:26
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What do mean by " give the forum a miss "
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'What do mean by " give the forum a miss "'
I mean that there are various reasons why not many new people join the forum, and some leave. Some of the reasons I gave in my previous post.
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I do think that this constant criticism by some member of the forum of someone who clearly has severe emotional and personality problems should stop. Clearly having few friends in the real world he had found a refuge on this forum and although his character and attitude can be irritating in the extreme I think we should try to find a small space on here to allow him to attempt to communicate in his own fashion.
So I propose we try to refrain from criticim and abuse of FM2R for a bit. Difficult I know but we should make the effort.
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>> So I propose we try to refrain from criticim and abuse of FM2R for a bit. Difficult I know but we should make the effort.
Tee hee! Very funny CGN.
fluffy is being truly honoured.
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Quite brilliant CG, I can only give you a green thumb whereas a gold star would have been more appropriate.
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By heck, Spartacus is out in force today.
Suffice to say, if someone said that I was a bully and thirteen others (other than me, I haven't yet dispensed any thumbs or glums today) supported that statement, I would be devastate.
Or at least contrite and ashamed that so many seemingly thought that I had been habitually, deliberately cruel.
That is a comment about myself, not anybody else.
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>> Suffice to say, if someone said that I was a bully and thirteen others (other
>> than me, I haven't yet dispensed any thumbs or glums today) supported that statement, I
>> would be devastate.
But not if you believed them to be "spineless and worthless" presumably.
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>> But not if you believed them to be "spineless and worthless" presumably.
Presumably.
Why on earth would I care about such opinions? To be honest I am a bit surprised that anybody would.
But opinions of people whose communicative ability is to click on a green thumb or red frownie? I would care no more if they were approving of me.
Its just fools and bandwagons.
Nope, can't say I are disappoint, devastate or bother.
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By heck, Spartacus is out in force today.
I don't remember the scene in which fourteen people point and shout, "He's Spartacus!"
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>> By heck, Spartacus is out in force today.
>>
>> I don't remember the scene in which fourteen people point and shout, "He's Spartacus!"
Patacus then.
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I do not remember the scene either.
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Just because we have other things on our minds, we can't let the essentials slide...
Pendant Corner:-
VxFan wrote:-
>>
>> or retaliated back.
>>
That's tautology!
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Is NOFM the new Zero? Or is he already back in disguise?
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>>That's tautology!
I myself personally agree
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Also I do too as well and all
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We should stamp out tautology
Make it our first priority!
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We should stamp out stamp out causes!
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I thought the forum subject was
" tax cuts for the rich welfare cuts for the poor "
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>> I thought the forum subject was.....
It's called thread drift Fluffy.
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Thanks for that.
I will remember that for the future.
" It is called thread "
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'I will remember that for the future.
" It is called thread "'
No, Fluffo, it's called thread drift. Drifting away from the original topic.
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I used to like Topics. Hazelnut and caramel. Very tasty.
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>> I used to like Topics. Hazelnut and caramel. Very tasty.
A hazelnut in every bite.
funny how you always remember right at the end......
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Will this topic self-destruct when it gets to 1,000 replies?
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You're right of course. There is no hope. Above this forum should be inscribed the words "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here."
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>> No
>>
That is a definite answer, inside knowledge?
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Where heading towards a 1000 replies.
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And fluffy almost certainly has deliberately said where instead of we're.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 26 Apr 16 at 20:08
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In which case he must be Zero and I claim my £5.
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I am not Zero, I am fluffy.
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100% behind NoFM2R's sentiment and responses.
Until of course there is confirmation by Fluffy that he has behavioural/mental health issues then we can take that into account and learn something about him - continued sniping after then would indeed be bullying and out of bounds in my book.
The only time I've found NoFM2R to be OTT in his anti-troll was with respect to the late forum member who had a brain tumour.
And before Pat comes out holier-than-thou she let herself down badly with her xenophobic rant about Malala Yousafzai getting surgery and rehab in the UK.
Me? Perfect.
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>> 100% behind NoFM2R's sentiment and responses.
>>
And that's MY green thumb on your post.
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None of us know (apart from the mods who do) if fluffy is real or not. I'd like to think it's not someone winding us up but there's a lot of things to suggest this is not a real new member. Simple questions have been asked and not answered. I see it as very odd the number of posts on here by a new member.
We might say this site needs new members - but lets be honest, what does anyone apart from regulars who already exchanged messages on HJ originally, get from this site?
We try to answer questions of regulars and the odd new member and we do quite well. But there's probably fewer than two dozen active members.
Makes me wonder why Khoo Systems keeps this going. Unless there is some benefit financially from this additional 'customer' on the servers. I won't speculate on that because we benefit from the forum being hosted.
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Just a question Lygonos are you a medical doctor?
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>> Just a question Lygonos are you a medical doctor?
I think Lygonos is a General Practitioner in Scotland somewhere.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 26 Apr 16 at 22:43
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For the sake of all those patients he's told us about, let's hope so.
};---)
(Although I gather that our GP practice just before we arrived in town found it had been employing one who wasn't.)
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>>Although I gather that our GP practice just before we arrived in town found it had been employing one who wasn't
One of my colleagues who studied at Dundee Uni was in the same class as this chap:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/medical-school-expels-teenager-aged-32-1603510.html
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Talking about medical training. Is there an age limit on getting into medical school? I can see it costs a lot to train and a long career is needed to repay etc. Just curious.
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Used to be mid-20s, with a little longer for folks switching from a different degree eg. dentistry or a science subject.
Current Glasgow site makes no mention of age:
www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/medicine/#/entryrequirements
Edinburgh also doesn't suggest any age limits other than those prescribed by a Professional body - presumably that is now grounds for discrimination?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 26 Apr 16 at 23:16
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Ta. Not that I could do it now for various reasons. But when I was 18 I could never have gone to med school because blood and all that was too much for me. Dissecting a corpse would be something I could never do then.
But as a person dealing with life events that we all have, I probably could now. Academically getting into med school would have been easy when I was 18/19.
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>>Academically getting into med school would have been easy when I was 18/19.
It's the 'foot-in-the-door' part - applications per place are typically around 10, but most students will apply to perhaps 3 unis so the success rate is about 30% for anyone applying for medicine.
Of the 70% who fail some will try another year perhaps after doing some hospital/healthcare work to boost their application and some will take up another Uni course (perhaps with the intention of trying to cross over to medicine).
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Medical_School_Competition_Ratios
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I wonder what fluffy will do if this thread hits 1000?
If I was a mod, I'd lock it now and make a new one to continue discussion :-) Does take a few moments to load even on a 65Mbps connection. Maybe it's the load on Khoo Systems rather than bandwidth?
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To fully load this page actually took nearly 40 seconds just then. Most activity ad related. Typically it seems 15 seconds.
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And when this web page loads it creates hundreds (even over 1000 just now) of blocked frames.
Does that take a hit on Khoo Systems or is this Google add related?
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The impression I have is that Fluffy doesn't see the abuse.Some of it is meaningless to him water of a Ducks back.
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>>The impression I have is that Fluffy doesn't see the abuse. Some of it is meaningless to him
That's the point - it's outside the normal spectrum of communication skills for most articulate people.
His responses to criticism and advice are almost predictable (hence the 'is he a bot' conspiracists) and his replies to direct abuse is usually nothing which is very strange.
I can't remember any joke or significant humour in any of the hundreds of posts he has made - again very odd.
If he's a wind-up merchant he deserves all of the feedback he gets.
If he has a communication/behaviour/mental health issue it would be helpful to know and may actually be educational for many forum contributors.
As it stands, each of us has to see it in our own way and respond accordingly.
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It wouldn't matter if he is or not a wind up merchant Lygonos.
You of all people should know as a doctor never judge a book by its cover.It is obvious he has no communication problems he got under FRM's skin.You often find in live that people who dish it out don't like taking it back.
It is up to fluffy if he wants to talk about it .
It does prove something that some people on here can and are very judgemental which is sad for them.Maybe they could do with some help.>:) Yes a smiley live is to short.
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>>You of all people should know as a doctor never judge a book by its cover
I'm quite intrigued by Fluffy - I have no idea if he is a troll/wind-up (20%), has communication/behaviour/mental issues (70%), a bot (5%) or just a regular guy with odd language skills (5%)
Everyone else will have their own proportions in their 'Fluffy Pie Chart' I expect.
>>It does prove something that some people on here can and are very judgemental
My life is focussed around making decisions, often with only part of the evidence available - it also relies on revising or unmaking these decisions as more information becomes available.
You may see that as being judgemental.
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>> I'm quite intrigued by Fluffy - I have no idea if he is a troll/wind-up
>> (20%), has communication/behaviour/mental issues (70%), a bot (5%) or just a regular guy
What's a bot?
Robot? How does that work then?
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Duncan - making Fluffy style posts?
can I put in my bid for " You are.....and I claim my £5" ?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 07:52
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>> Duncan - making Fluffy style posts?
>>
>> can I put in my bid for " You are.....and I claim my £5" ?
>>
Well...
I simply don't know what a 'bot' is.
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>>What's a bot?
It's an 'artificial intelligence' that can hold conversations - they have become quite elaborate now, but I really don't think Fluffy is one - it would certainly need a real person logging in and entering data at least (as far as I know - my IT skills are weak...)
I found this with google - give it a try and see how easy it is to catch out
www.mitsuku.com/
(click on the 'chat to me' box under the pic of the japanish girlie)
Most bots nowadays have good English - that's why I think I will reduce my 5% to 0%!
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 08:40
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>> I found this with google - give it a try and see how easy it
>> is to catch out
That was easy, it says fluffy is a kitten.
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>>My life is focussed around making decisions, often with only part of the evidence available - it also relies on revising or unmaking these decisions as more information becomes available.
You would have done well in business, Lygonos. In fact, these are just the sort of high order skills that education should provide, since they are transferable to most situations.
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"Until of course there is confirmation by Fluffy that he has behavioural/mental health issues then we can take that into account and learn something about him - continued sniping after then would indeed be bullying and out of bounds in my book."
Let me make sure I understand this. You're saying that the sniping and unpleasantness with reference to Fluffy are OK until he proves he has some kind of problem? Really? Do you not realise how that sounds?
"100% behind NoFM2R's sentiment and responses."
How very disappointing. If I were thinking of joining the forum I know what conclusions I would draw about your and his comments.
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>>You're saying that the sniping and unpleasantness with reference to Fluffy are OK until he proves he has some kind of problem
Sure - it's an internet forum - opinions deserve to be corrected, questioned, or even mocked when construed to be wrong, nonsensical or pure drivel.
Much as you have made a sanctimonious and condescending remark about my post.
The difference is I can see the intent and negativity, and can respond to it in a considered manner while respecting your right to make the comment (and getting in a gentle dig of my own).
There's something unusual or mischievous about Fluffy - I'd like to know which, but he is under no need to answer this - which means the different degrees of response will continue for the various forum protagonists (antagonists?)
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I think I see it in a similar vain as Lygonos. It's the responses (or lack of) from fluffy that makes us think this is either a person with a problem or something else. The person responding as fluffy does not respond but keeps posting.
Sadly for the forum this thread will put off any new posters. But we're free to chat about anything here, right?
The mods are quiet in the main - probably because they know this is another current/previous member. They get an email based on certain criteria to alert them after all. Well we used to.
If I lived near to Lygonos, I'd buy him a beer and have a chat (if they were up to it). I couldn't do the same for fluffy because I suspect it's someone else.
Back to an earlier reply by Lygonos to me:
>> It's the 'foot-in-the-door' part - applications per place are typically around 10
I know I wouldn't necessarily have gotten in for a med degree, turning the clock back to 1989 so to speak, but I know it wasn't right for me then. I did get into the Victoria University of Manchester (don't want to confuse or give the wrong name! That's what it was called as there was also UMIST and MMU*) and I was asked what I wanted them to offer me :-) From EE to AAA. I foolishly thought what would they think if I said EE so said CCC... got AAA.
Now I can see how I might have been able to after all. One of my strengths at work (often under used due to projects) is to take in a lot of info, analyse/compare, etc. and come up with a hypothesis.... I am a thinker/analyser. Maybe attributes a GP has/needs? I'm 45 so not going to go into medicine now :-)
* We used to say we were at Owens if we wanted to be pretentious. MMU was Mickey Mouse University.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 01:20
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>>I'm 45 so not going to go into medicine now
5 years to get the degree, 2 years as a Foundation level doctor, then 3-4 years to train as a GP.
Sorted - you'd then have 13 years til retirement at 68 bwahahahaa...
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I still think the fact this is now very close to 1000 posts....
1. Mods know it's a wind-up
2.Who knows...
No comment so far from mods for me = a wind up. And I hope I'm wrong.
So can the mod's positively vouch for fluffy even even that takes an email?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 02:40
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>> No comment so far from mods .....
You must have missed this one then.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=22083&m=495785&v=e
"rtj: >> Mods might be laughing as they might already know the answer.
Well Rob, you know how thorough I am when I get the bit between my teeth to find out whether a person is a spammer, troll, scammer, etc. Nothing whatsoever has appeared on my radar."
For me, Fluffy is harmless enough. I haven't seen any bullying by him, nor belittling anyone. I can't even recall him arguing with anyone.
If you (or anyone else) doesn't like his posts then don't read them, and don't reply to them.
So what if he's in a wibbly wobbly world of his own. He's so far not causing myself or the other mods any problems.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 09:09
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">>You're saying that the sniping and unpleasantness with reference to Fluffy are OK until he proves he has some kind of problem
Sure - it's an internet forum - opinions deserve to be corrected, questioned, or even mocked when construed to be wrong, nonsensical or pure drivel."
That may be at the heart of the issue - "it's an internet forum" and apparently that allows rules different from common courtesy and consideration to be applied. It has actually gone even beyond the responses endorsed by you (correcting, questioning, mocking) when one forum member keeps on at another.
"... I can see the intent and negativity, and can respond to it in a considered manner while respecting your right to make the comment (and getting in a gentle dig of my own)."
You think you can see "intent and negativity" in Fluffy's posts? That's a hell of a lot of reading between the lines, in my view. I would rather reserve judgement on that one and give him the benefit of the doubt.
My remark was "sanctimonious and condescending"? That is an attempt on your part to slip in a personal attack. Here are some synonyms of sanctimonious: self-righteous, holier-than-thou, smug, superior, priggish, mealy-mouthed, hypocritical, insincere.
And some for sanctimonious: "patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, scornful, disdainful".
So that is what you want people to think of me when I have the audacity to criticise you and those mischief-makers you support?
Last edited by: Focal Point on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 10:18
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Well, the general tone of things kept me away from here all day yesterday and this morning is if anything, worse.
We now have toe forum Doc wanting Fluffy to stand up and tell us all that he's mentally challenged in some way......words fail me, it's a b***** internet forum not an AA meeting.
What next, does AC have to start each post with Hello, I'm AC and I'm an alcoholic, do I have to say Hello, I'm pat and I'm addicted to cigarettes.
How about Hello, I'm Lygonos and I'm the least compassionate Doctor you could find?
........another day somewhere else, I think.
Pat
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Seeing rtj's two posts made while I was making mine I can see he obviously has an axe to grind about Stephen Khoo and/or Khoo Systems and their financial status.
What's the problem rtj?
Dog and a bone spring to mind 'cos you're talking to yourself now on that subject.......no-one else is interested.
Pat
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Hello - I'm Ray, and I'm addicted to tea.
>>How about Hello, I'm Lygonos and I'm the least compassionate Doctor you could find?
Yep - with you again there, quite surprised at his post yesterday. Perhaps we're paying 'em too much?
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>>>How about Hello, I'm Lygonos and I'm the least compassionate Doctor you could find?<<<
I am 100% with Ly on his views - I wish I had a GP ( and consultants) with his approach to life. Intelligent, pragmatic and always willing to amend his judgement based on furher info.
Actually my GP of choice fits these criteria, but in a multi partner practice the best appointments are not always easy to come by.
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I'd be in Dr Lygo's waiting room too. Round here he applies some critical thinking to complex problems and gets jumped on for his trouble. He's not even on duty, for heaven's sake!
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Nothing to see here.
I just wanted to be the one who posted the thousandth comment ;)
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All you forum members, thanks.
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You are very welcome, and thanks to you for provoking (even if inadvertently) a substantial debate... which was your stated intent.
And I concur with VxFan that you are by some margin the most polite contributor on this site!
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 27 Apr 16 at 09:37
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My aim was to create a substantial debate, I agree.
And I believe I succeded in that debate.
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"You are very welcome, and thanks to you for provoking (even if inadvertently) a substantial debate... which was your stated intent.
And I concur with VxFan that you are by some margin the most polite contributor on this site!"
How are we meant to take this? How sincere is this pleasantness in the context of other comments you have made above?
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>> >> I used to like Topics. Hazelnut and caramel. Very tasty.
>>
>> A hazelnut in every bite.
>>
>> funny how you always remember right at the end......
My Dad was a factory floor worker at the Mars factory in Sluff (Mars make Topic), and I remember him coming home laughing one day and telling us that there had been a marketing presentation made to the production line blokes by some berk in a suit, who had started the presentation by shouting: "What's got a hazelnut in every bite?" To which a bloke at the back shouted "Squirrel Shi-ite!"
Snigger.
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And he was still laughing when he got home?
But then I suppose I first heard that joke 35 years ago and it's still the first thing I think of when someone mentions Topic. I remember the tune and all the other words too.
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Yes. I expect it was the first time he'd heard it and the situation would have lent the joke further contextual humour. He was a man of robust cheer with a hearty sense of mischief.
35 years ago is just about exactly the right time - 1981 would be a good guess so perhaps the factory wag originated the joke, or it was reasonably fresh and was repeating something funny he'd only just heard.
Anyone got any earlier examples of hearing this joke, so we can submit to the Oxford Etymological Dictionary of Demotic Anglo-Saxon for publication?
I always find it's best to analyse funny moments. Enhances the humour no end.
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I'd like to think that the suit said it deliberately. If he asked the question with a smile on his face and laughed with everyone at the reply, they'd be in his pocket.
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Yes, that could have been the case JB. Perhaps he was expecting the heckle.
It was a very good firm to work for in those days, don't know if that's the case in this sanitised modern age of business bores.
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I was a canteen assistant on a Saturday when I was in the Sixth Form at school.
The manager offered me a full-time job which I said no.
I did enjoy my time at school.
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I am not a chef but I do enjoy cooking my own food.
I have a Food Hygiene Certificate and a Health and Safety Certificate.
I am qualified to work in a cafe or restaurant.
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I do most of the cooking at home - since the gaffer turn vegetarian (+seafood) last year - plenty of raw veggies which the kids enjoy, and pasta/sauce usually.
*Top tip* to the other cooks out there - got some samphire from Tesco last week, which I usually steam but tossed it in the wok for 2 minutes with a bunch of other veg/garlic/ginger/chilli and some prawns - don't add salt/soy sauce as the samphire is salty enough - turned out really nice with the samphire still keeping some bite, a bit like green noodles.
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SWMBO and perforce me, are on the vile WeightWatchers thing at the moment.
No good food allowed.
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When we need to trim ourselves down a bit we still eat "good" food, just less of it.
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I enjoy eating good food.
I enjoy a typical Sunday roast.
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>>I enjoy a typical Sunday roast
Can you elaborate more?
What are the 'must have' parts you enjoy ? - for me it's the Yorkshire pudding, roast potatoes, mustard/horseradish/decent gravy, and meats that aren't bone-dry (not a big fan of roast lamb though).
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I enjoy roast pork, roast potatoes, Yorkshire puddings, carrots and I love thick gravy.
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I also enjoy mint sauce with Roast Lamb.
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Lamb is best cooked rare and served with mustard.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 28 Apr 16 at 20:23
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I like my lamb well done.
I do not like mustard on my lamb.
I prefere mint sauce with my lamb.
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I like a bit of mustard on lamb.I don't eat often meat digest to slow in my stomach.
Mint sauce is nice Fluffy.
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I prefer mint sauce with my roast lamb.
I also enjoy eating fish in particular halibut with a bit of tarter sauce.
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and a Vanilla Slice to follow?
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No apple pie and thick custard.
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My ole mum used to do stewed black cherries with custard - what a colour!
This is nice IMO; I wouldn't eat it now though, but I have done= and mucho:
www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=271246162
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My granma made the best apple pie anyone could eat.
She also made the best thick custard for that apple pie.
You could turn your spoon upside down and the custard would stick to the spoon.
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I don't like custard that's too thick, or too thin. I don't like cold custard either. It has to be just right!
I make a mean apple pie too as it happens. Soooooo good I could eat the whole lot at one sitting.
8-)
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>> No apple pie and thick custard. >>
An apple pie with "no apple (pie)" is not an apple pie. ;-)
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My sister used to make a nice apple tart.She rang me the other day by mistake on her mobile.Her land line is on the blink.Nice to hear her voice bless her.
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I hope Sir Philip Green gets a proper grilling from the M.P.s in the select committees.
He deserves it.
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Yes, he likes cheese on toast.
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His wife took a £1.2 billion payout out of B.H.S.
No wonder there is no money to top up the pension scheme at B.H.S.
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Are you sure 1.2 billion? That would buy a few yachts to keep her happy.
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Yep it was £1.2 billion.
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Read, learn, understand. (as I say that, I realise that at least two are beyond you)
"Sir Philip’s wife Tina took a £1.2bn payout from the Arcadia group of companies, when BHS was owned separately by the Green family"
www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3b390862-0ad9-11e6-9456-444ab5211a2f.html
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The Greens have set no example to the workforce of B.H.S.
There are 11 thousand jobs at risk and there is a £500 million pension deficit.
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What should the Greens have done to set an example? How would that have altered the pension deficit? How would that have saved 11,000 jobs? What has put those 11,000 jobs at risk? How would you have saved them?
I thought you said you were going to research before coming out with garbage, or are you waiting for the lemmings to rush along and save you?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 1 May 16 at 20:47
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The Greens should have kept ownership of B.H.S. and not sold the retailer for a £1.
They should have restructured B.H.S themselves and not offloaded the company.
I would not have paid myself £1.2 billion and moved my office to Monaco.
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If they had kept ownership, would that have then resolved the retailer's issues, protected the 11,000 jobs and fixed the pension plan?
Do you know what "restructure" means? Because its is actually what they are doing.
Do you understand how company ownership works?
What is your reaction to...
"However, sources close to him claim he [Green] ended up walking away with significantly less after funding the chain’s losses for years, writing off hundreds of millions in debts, and leaving cash in the business when it was sold to Chappell."
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/30/the-man-who-thought-he-could-sail-to-riches-at-bhs/
These may help you..
www.bbc.com/news/business-35834473
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/25/bhs-heading-for-administration-as-rescue-deal-fails
www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4dd403bc-0dfb-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html
Green has most certainly tried to organise things in a way favourable to himself, but I'm not quite clear what you think he has done which is actually wrong.
I suspect your difficulty is your insistence on speaking on things about which you know nothing. Although I do appreciate how restrictive any other approach would be for you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 1 May 16 at 21:21
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I do not have the same general knowledge as you
But I do try to understand your point of view.
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Not everybody has the same knowledge on every subject. That is not an issue. We all learn about stuff.
On the other hand;
1) Spouting tripe about stuff you do not understand (repeatedly and incessantly)
2) Putting no effort into researching or learning
And similar drivel for which you should feel guilt. If you don't know and you don't understand, stop with the ridiculous and purportedly definitive statements.
>> I do try to understand your point of view.
I have never seen you try to understand anybody's point of view on any subject. I have never seen you try to understand anything.
Recycle, regurgitate and repeat, yes. But not understand.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 1 May 16 at 21:36
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I guess about now some santicmonious moaner will be along to whine about you being bullied, some fool will say "a gree wiv diss geeza" and 11 other poeple will put thumbs on it.
Sad fools.
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'I guess about now some santicmonious moaner will be along to whine about you being bullied, some fool will say "a gree wiv diss geeza" and 11 other poeple will put thumbs on it.
Sad fools.'
You do go looking for trouble, don't you? I suppose this post comes under the category of "getting your retaliation in first".
At least we now know what you think of at least 12 people here. I can't think why you bother to keep posting in this vein, as you are so unappreciated.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Sun 1 May 16 at 21:49
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>>as you are so unappreciated.
Not really something I seek.
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Don't give up fluffy he is a A Hole just accept it .
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>>Don't give up fluffy he is a A Hole just accept it .
= = => www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX4hN2KAaww
:o}
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Do not worry Dutchie I am not going to give up.
I am a fighter.
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Thanks for your support, Pat
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Fluffy, you'll always have my support simply because you just a little bit 'different', in the nicest possible way:)
I love different characters, cultures and opinions. The world would be so boring if we were all the same.
I've just watched a news clip of the celebrations in my old home town, Leicester, last night when they won the Premier League.
A group of coloured blokes were interviewed celebrating and one of them said to the interviewer ' I was born here, I love the City, I love the Foxes and I'm so incredibly proud of what they've done'.
It made me realise just how lucky I was to have spent so much time in a multicultural place where colour didn't matter and I could speak freely without having to worry about whether what I said was PC or not.
I learned long ago to accept people for who they are, not what they are and if you look hard enough you will find some good in everyone somewhere.
Proof of that ....I have given a thumbs to one of NoFMR's posts this morning o)
......but I've been called a racist on here!
Pat
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Thanks for your support, Pat.
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What has happened to Tata Steel and the steel complex at Port Talbot.
Is the Greybull Capital takeover of the Scunthorpe steel works on the cards.
I do not know.
Please someone help.
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>> I do not know.
>>
>> Please someone help.
>>
Car4play to be renamed Google4play henceforth.
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>> A group of coloured blokes were interviewed
>> colour didn't matter
>> I learned long ago to accept people for who they are, not what they are
It comes across to me that colour did matter to you in your above post.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Thu 5 May 16 at 18:18
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Can someone explain if the U.K, steel industry will be sold off.
I would nationalise the steel industry in the U.K and give the workers a huge pay rise.
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Are you an SNP supporter? They are into unfunded proposals.
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I would monetise the entire U.K economy and give every U.K citizen a £100 handout.
We are on the brink of another recession.
The figures state our economy is growing by only 0.1% on the previous month.
That is as close to a recession as you can get.
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>>I would monetise the entire U.K economy and give every U.K citizen a £100 handout.
Who would you sell it to?
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I would have our entire U.K debt sold to Berkshire Hathaway.
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Fluffy is Gordon Brown and Ronald Reagan's lovechild.
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Berkshire Hathaway has never split their shares.
Well the " A shares " have never split.
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>>Berkshire Hathaway has never split their shares.
So?
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Warren Buffett would make a better President of the U.S.A than Donald Trump.
Our economy needs a Warren Buffett and not a George Osborne.
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You really are a master of non-sequiturs and knight's move thinking.
What's the point of BH shares never having been split?
How does that make WB a capable president and suitable to run a trillion dollar economy?
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The fool never provides answers to questions he can't google.
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What did Charles Dickins say
" a penny below a pound you are financially secure"
" a penny above a pound you are bankrupt"
The Victorians knew how to manage a debt free economy.
Warren Buffett knows how to manage a $400 billion company.
In 2008/2009 we ran a budget deficit in excess of 10% of our national income.
We were almost bankrupt by 2009.
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Micawber's Law - next up Godwin's...
As for the Victorians having a debt-free economy you must try harder.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_national_debt
Do you get PIP, Fluffy?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 5 May 16 at 21:34
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>> Do you get PIP, Fluffy?
Let's make the massive assumption that you're asking a fair and reasonable question.
It's notoriously difficult to get PIP for non physical impairments.
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>>It's notoriously difficult to get PIP for non physical impairments.
Not when your non-physical impairment significantly impairs your ability to communicate, and as a consequence diminishes your ability to earn a living.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 5 May 16 at 22:19
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>> Not when your non-physical impairment significantly impairs your ability to communicate, and as a consequence
>> diminishes your ability to earn a living.
PIP is about mobility or capacity to deal with one's care/bodily functions
Impairments to communication and effect on capacity to earn are more about qualifying for Employment Support Allowance(ESA) and, if you're eligible, which ESA group you end up in.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 5 May 16 at 23:02
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>>PIP is about mobility or capacity to deal with one's care/bodily functions
Wrong:
"You may get the daily living component of PIP if you need help with things like:
-preparing or eating food
-washing, bathing and using the toilet
-dressing and undressing
-reading and communicating
-managing your medicines or treatments
-making decisions about money
-engaging with other people"
www.gov.uk/pip/eligibility
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What is PIP?
Please explain.
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See the blue string of letters and punctuation in my post above? - click that and see where it takes you.
Not being able to use one's own initiative may mean a person could qualify for this important benefit.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 6 May 16 at 19:50
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PIP is replacing Disability Living Allowance. That is what I can gather.
The Government was going to cut £4.4 billion from the PIP budget.
If that is wrong will any of you forum members explain to me what the Government is thinking of doing. Is that £4.4 billion figure wrong or not.
Please explain.
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>> If that is wrong will any of you forum members explain to me what the
>> Government is thinking of doing. Is that £4.4 billion figure wrong or not.
>>
>> Please explain.
>>
You should seek professional advice.
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I have already seeked professional advice.
Thats the problem.
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Ah, and its left you in the dark? Oh, the plight and suffering of the ohmless.
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>>It comes across to me that colour did matter to you in your above post<<
Exactly what I expected you to say!
Pat
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Do you class Zak Goldsmith a racist for what was said about the Labour mayor candidate.
Please help.
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>> Do you class Zak Goldsmith a racist for what was said about the Labour mayor
>> candidate.
I don't think Zac G himself is a racist, quite the opposite.
I am convinced that those managing his campaign have been quite happy to press racist or at least culturally divisive buttons and blow dog whistles to same ends.
Decent chap dragged into deep and muddy water.
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I thought Zac Goldsmith was going to win and become the third mayor of London.
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>> I thought Zac Goldsmith was going to win and become the third mayor of London.
You weren't looking at the polls then :-)
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The polls last year did not predict a Conservative Government with an overall majority.
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Given how much Pat, Dutchie and Dog, amongst others, whine about how you are treated, why do you think they put so little effort into conversation with you?
Why do they not ever try to answer your questions?
Please explain.
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What are you on about FM2R.
If fluffy wants to ask me a question I will try to answer it.
I would not call that person a idiot if I disagree it is like going in circles with you round and round.
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Easy to say, but I've never noticed you try.
His questions are usually addressed to forum members which includes you. So rather than just whine about what or how others post, why don't you answer some of his stuff?
Do you not think he is worth the effort?
Please explain.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 8 May 16 at 01:46
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>>So rather than just whine about what or how others post, why don't you answer some of his stuff?
Whine? None of us whine, we tell you straight to back off and stop being a bully.
Please explain why you can't ignore Fluffy?
Pat
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I think the point that he is tying to make is why do very few people ever respond to Fluffy's posts. After all if you really feel he I genuine poster and not a troll, it is surely disrespectful not to try and answer I his many questions.
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I try to answer forum members questions to the best of my ability.
If that is not good enough please explain why it is not good enough.
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The idea that it is an issue that some members of this forum do not respond to Fluffy’s posts is risible and I assume is an attempt by those who for some time now have challenged and provoked him to get at those of us who object to their treatment of him.
No-one is under an obligation to respond to anything here or on any forum. What a ridiculous idea!
Returning after a deliberate absence of a week or so, I am depressed by the continued treatment dished out to Fluffy by some people here - the usual suspects, in fact, plus some hangers-on whose presence in all this is surprising.
What do they get out of doing so? Mark professes his contempt for the rest of us, so we must assume he gets some sort of private kick out of it. Maybe it’s some kind of challenge he feels he must respond to. His objections to Fluffy are (among others) that he doesn’t like his debating style, his questions and his supposed inability to use Google.
Lygonos similarly objects to his lack of initiative, his supposed inability to communicate, and his non-linear thought-processes. Presumably the good doctor is belying his dour side and seeking a bit of entertainment.
How pathetic – how absolutely pathetic. Once again the internet seems to give licence for people to be much more unpleasant to someone than they would ever be face-to-face.
I wish the moderators would get a grip. “All we ask is that you act in a respectful and courteous manner. We will act to preserve these values…â€
Yeah, right.
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Very well put FP.
Like you, I've looked at the All we ask bit a few times recently and thought it a tad ironic.
Come on Mods (and or Stephen). It's one thing to be a spectator when the wannabe top dogs are willy waving at each other. Altogether another when somebody who is new here is being openly picked on and bullied.
Somebody had time yesterday to edit out my attempt to get a slang word for testicles past the swear filter.
There are bigger fish to fry.
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Why am I being picked on?
I do not know.
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The Conservative Party even won an outer suburb seat on the outskirts of Glasgow on Thursday called Eastwood.
That was under first-past-the-post.
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Jackson Carlaw (Con) and Ken McIntosh (Lab) have been contesting that seat for the past decade.
The resullts have always been quite close and I think Ken lasted as long as he did by being a decent MSP.
Eastwood is a very affluent Glaswegian suburban area.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 8 May 16 at 17:38
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Another suburban seat in Glasgow that is Glasgow Cathcart use to be a safe Conservative seat as well.
It only went Labour in the 1979 General Election.
Now Glasgow Cathcart is a Scottish National Party seat in the Scottish Parliament.
Glasgow Cathcart has had Conservative,Labour and Scottish National Party Member of Parliament.
If I lived in Glasgow Cathcart I would be confused who to vote for as well.
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As you have researched the Glasgow political situation, why do you keep asking the forum users so many questions? You are obviously capable of doing your own research and are deliberately trying to annoy and provoke other forum users.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 May 16 at 18:22
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I enjoy creating an open debate.
I do not mean anything funny about it.
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There is nothing funny about annoying and provoking people, why do you think some people make unpleasant responses to your posts.
Please explain.
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Maybe because I like to be honest with people.
I do not mean to provoke anyone.
I just like to give people facts that I know and understand.
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>> I just like to give people facts that I know and understand.
>>
See what I mean, still trying to provoke.
You are a wind up merchant and deserve all the grief you get.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 May 16 at 20:15
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>> You are a wind up merchant and deserve all the grief you get.
If you're letting the stuff fluffy posts wind you up then you REALLY need to have a word with yourself.
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There is no way he is winding me up, you have to be pretty tolerant to be submarine crew. Just passing an opinion.
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>>you have to be pretty tolerant to be submarine crew
Imagine Fluffy as your CO.
How long 'til he got an 'inspection' of the torpedo tubes?
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>> >>you have to be pretty tolerant to be submarine crew
>>
>> Imagine Fluffy as your CO.
>>
>> How long 'til he got an 'inspection' of the torpedo tubes?
>>
The situation would not arise, he would never pass the course. Someone of lower rank would not last long. Submarine crews have their "characters" but difficult people are soon shifted elsewhere.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 May 16 at 21:13
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>>I just like to give people facts that I know and understand.
Since you're going back over 30 years, try going back another 20 or so to 1955 when the Conservatives were the majority party in Scotland.
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In October 1974 General Election Scotland elected 11 S.N.P. seats for the House of Commons.
In 1955 the Conservative Party had an overall majority of more than 100 seats for the House of Commons.
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And your point is........?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 May 16 at 21:32
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>> And your point is........?
Political representation in Scotland......?
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Of course no one is under any obligation to reply to any one's messages but the essence of a forum is discussion and if members pose a question on here it's normally anwered very promptly
Now Fluffy poses a string of questions nearly every day. They are nearly all ignored or not taken seriously by most member of this forum. A few have tried to have a meaningful dialogue, some have attempted to establish if Fluffy is "real", some have gently teased him to try to determine a little more about him. FM2R has in this characteristic way gone over the top in his own inimitable style.
Since Fluffy has never engaged in a meaningful dialogue with anyone but simply poses questions or makes statement of facts how are we to deal with his posts? Simply ignore them all? If Fluffy deserves respect then surely those Forum members most vocal in his defence should at least try to talk to him from time to time.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 8 May 16 at 21:51
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I am not on Car4Play to provoke anyone.
What I write is too create a discussion not to provoke.
If people judge me for what I write I feel sorry for them.
I am not a troll or in the business to upset people.
Why people are upset what I write I do not know.
My knowledge is what I read such as the morning paper or a current affairs magazine.
At lot of my knowledge is through the internet such as Wikepedia of the B.B.C News.
The television is another medium I use to gain information.
I do not know what more I can say.
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>>My knowledge is what I read such as the morning paper or a current affairs magazine.
At lot of my knowledge is through the internet such as Wikepedia of the B.B.C News.
>> The television is another medium I use to gain information.
Do you not speak to people at work? Doesn't that give you information and viewpoints?
Or if not at work how about family members? - a great deal of most people's (at least initial) view of the world comes from mimicking (or rebelling against) their parents'.
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Tell us about your hobby's Fluffy we know your interest in current affairs.
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>>> Since Fluffy has never engaged in a meaningful dialogue with anyone but simply poses questions
>> or makes statement of facts how are we to deal with his posts? Simply ignore
>> them all? If Fluffy deserves respect then surely those Forum members most vocal in his
>> defence should at least try to talk to him from time to time.
Anybody who has joined a social group based on common interests (as opposed to self selecting one's company from school/pub/work etc ) will have met and dealt with folks who struggle with standard conventions.
Do you:
(a) ignore?
(b) bully them into leaving?
(c) try and deal with them on their terms or some compromise between that and 'normality'?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 8 May 16 at 21:50
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>> Anybody who has joined a social group based on common interests (as opposed to self
>> selecting one's company from school/pub/work etc ) will have met and dealt with folks who
>> struggle with standard conventions.
>>
>> Do you:
>>
>> (a) ignore?
>> (b) bully them into leaving?
>> (c) try and deal with them on their terms or some compromise between that and
>> 'normality'?
>>
I think it has to be said that most of us have tried one or more in this case. It also has to be said that by and large fluffy does not enter into conversations, but merely posts statements, and invites others to "explain" which after a time (to me at least) becomes somewhat exasperating. I've tried to ignore but it's a wee bit like trying to drive past a car crash without rubber-necking; with the best will in the world you cannot help but take a sly peek.
I'm still convinced that fluffy is on a mission to wind us all up; occasionally the mask slips and he posts something which suggests to me that he's fully aware of what he's doing. I spent a few years in HR, mainly interviewing people for low-skilled jobs, and it left me with a good nose for spotting a "wrong 'un". I also suspect, due to the brevity of his posts, that he uses a mobile rather than a laptop or PC.
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>> I'm still convinced that fluffy is on a mission to wind us all up; occasionally
>> the mask slips and he posts something which suggests to me that he's fully aware
>> of what he's doing.
I certainly agree with that. As you say the mask slips, he is not as daft as he tries to be.
He is on a wind up.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 May 16 at 23:21
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I like having a sly peek good comment.>:) Trust me fluffy is not a wrong un.Just a gut feeling.
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You are going soft in your old age Dutchie. :-)
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I used to have a good mate Jan.He had a brother Kees really nice kid very clever but he had a deformity in his face plus he was not far off blind.
Jan was a hardcase very strong and not scared of anybody.Good looking bloke very tall and fair hair.We used to sitdown with Kees in the pub for a drink and Kees.Could be down talking to me.
No girl is interested in me you only have to look at me Dutchy he used to say.I always felt sorry for him I didn't see his face just his honest eyes and his pain.
I'm always carefull calling people who are different than us or maybe have problems.Iam soft with certain people.
If that has anything to do with fluffy I don't know maybe.
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Well said Dutchie, there's a lesson some could learn there.
The idea that I or anyone else should have to defend themselves about not responding to any poster is simply absurd.
I reply as and when I can, as and when I want to and that's how it will continue to be.
I don't have the time a lot of you have and have been at work all weekend.
That means I have other things to 'amuse' myself with, along with a very busy time in the greenhouse and garden.
It seems that a silent response, or what I call 'a good ignoring' goes past a lot of people on here. That is a shame because it's something I often use when other people post things trying to get me to respond in my usual straight talking manner.
Like FP, who's post I agree with in it's entirety, I'm quietly re-adjusting my opinions of some people on here who's actions have surprised and appalled me to be honest.
I don't like being that wrong about people and after the situation some years ago with a poster who had died, I really don't want to be a part of anything like that again......so I don't visit so often while this is going on.
Pat
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>> Well said Dutchie, there's a lesson some could learn there.
>>
>> Pat
>>
I worked with people with all manner of disabilities for ten years after leaving the RN usually supporting them in workplaces. I do not need lectures from you or anyone else about my opinions of people, I think I can differentiate between the genuine and the fakers. I can be wrong and was once when one of my clients had a miraculous recovery after a substantial damages settlement. The internet can be misleading, but I stand by my opinion until proved wrong. Whoever fluffy is he is making waves here, maybe it is his intention to cause friction between forum users.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 9 May 16 at 08:18
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I beg to differ ON
Anyone on here who can be as rude as some have been to a new poster certainly does need a lecture and quite frankly, should be old enough to know better.
Your past credentials do you no justice whatsoever.
There never is any excuse for bad manners.
>> but I stand by my opinion until proved wrong. Whoever fluffy is he is making waves here, maybe it is his intention to cause friction between forum users<<
Here we me thinking that the years of education and wealth of experience would have had some benefit.
Surely, if you are correct, then common sense would suggest it far better not to give that person what they seek and totally ignore them?
For clarity this isn't just aimed at you, but to CG, Lygonos, HM and NOFMR to.
Carrot and stick spring to mind, but how can you all be so easily led???
Pat
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All I have suggested is that if you believe Fluffy is a genuine individual,which you clearly do, then he will have joined this forum to engage in conversation with other members. I am not advocating offensive posting but I do suggest that rather than attacking all and sundry you just try and engage in a conversation with Fluffy occasionally.
It seems rather rude and patronising to me to simply ignore him.
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>> It seems rather rude and patronising to me to simply ignore him.
If he's really someone struggling to communicate or socialise, and I'm still giving him benefit of the doubt, then that's true. In a normal social scenario, a walking club or community orchestra, we'd probably try to talk. Or develop an informal/unspoken rota to engage with him. Some people of course just won't make the effort. Others perhaps struggle to cope, either they've got their own 'issues' or are intolerant/short fuse types.
Most folks in the latter group will, in real life, ignore rather than let rip.
The anonymity of the internet seems to remove that inhibition. Moderation should deal with it but there seems to be a lack of means or will amongst the wand wielders in here.
If he's a socktrollpuppet or bot on a wind-up mission then ignoring is exactly the way to go.
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>>Fluffy is a genuine individual,which you clearly do<<
You're making assumptions there CG.
If you look closely at what you're accusing me off, and what I'm doing it may point to a different opinion.
....but of course, people only see what they want to see.
I do however firmly believe that if anyone is going to bother to address another then the least they can do is do it politely........either that, or button it.
Pat
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And where am not being polite?
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I'm referring to some of the comments to Fluffy from you and others.
You can be as rude to me as you like, I'm quite happy to respond in the same mode, Katie Hopkin has got a bit to go yet if I'm a mind to:)
The point is though, Fluffy doesn't respond like that and whilst the doubters may we ll be right, none of us KNOW.
If the doubters are wrong then I think it's an incredibly cruel way to treat someone.
If they are right then I can't for the life of me understand why they don't just ignore him and not give him the attention he so obviously craves.
Pat
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>>maybe it is his intention to cause friction between forum users.
I don't think we do too bad a job of that ourselves actually. Twas thus bf (before fluffy) as I'm sure you'll agree.
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I still suspect that fluffy is Zero in disguise, I think he has the IT skills to sidestep any blocks by the mods.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 9 May 16 at 10:24
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>>I still suspect that fluffy is Zero in disguise
My nose would increase in length if I said that thought hadn't crossed my mind at least once :)
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I am fluffy and not Zero.
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Ziehen Sie das andere Bein.
8-)
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>> Ziehen Sie das andere Bein.
>>
>> 8-)
Es hat Glocken auf
:-P
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>>Whoever fluffy is he is making waves here, maybe it is his intention to cause friction >> >>between forum users.
Fluffy's not made a single wave. They're made by the (mostly habitual) bullies pushing him around in the water.
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Thumbs up from me Bromp!
It wouldn't be his critics making waves or causing friction, now would it?
'course not;)
Pat
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Not a lot different from teenage girls picking on the 'different' one using whatever online messaging thing is the current favourite.
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H'man
>>>I spent a few years in HR, mainly interviewing people for low-skilled jobs, and it left me with a good nose for spotting a "wrong 'un". <<<
and how did you know that "the wrong 'uns" ( that you presumably rejected), actually met your preconceived profile.
I do share your view on f - more recent posts appear to show significantly more depth and understanding of some of the topics which he had previously claimed no knowledge. However some on here would like to think that he has taken on board the advice offered :) I cannot believe that he is as bright as he would like to think he is - particularly following the exposure of his educational history and associated errors and lies.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Mon 9 May 16 at 07:08
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Fluffy isn't a wrong'un or anything like it. He's a mischievous wind-up merchant and amusing with it.
Keep it up fluffo!
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Thats what I am doing.
I do not consider myself a wind-up-merchant.
But I do consider myself amusing.
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What's the difference between purple and pink?
The grip.
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What is the difference between purple and pink.
Please explain.
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>> Thats what I am doing.
>>
>> I do not consider myself a wind-up-merchant.
>>
>> But I do consider myself amusing.
>>
Self-praise is no recommendation.
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>>
>> and how did you know that "the wrong 'uns" ( that you presumably rejected), actually
>> met your preconceived profile.
>>
There's no pre-conception about it; and it doesn't necessarily follow that I summarily rejected any candidate who "spun a line". The trick is to steer them away from what are obviously well-rehearsed lines of bovine excrement and discover what they really have to offer; or not as the case may be.
Most of it comes down to people being, as Sir Robert Armstrong neatly put it, "economical with the truth" and evading directly targetted questions rather than lying outright. You soon learn to weigh up whether a candidate has something to hide or whether he simply has difficulty in putting himself across in a positive light. It's actually more difficult the lower you go down the skills ladder, as many folk who apply for work through employment agencies are desperately short of social and inter-personal skills through no fault of their own; nevertheless one has to attempt to mine as much background information as is reasonably possible in order to build a profile and match the candidate to the most suitable position. It goes without saying that you have to do this without putting the candidate "on edge" and making them even more defensive.
In the world of employment agencies, one wrongly-placed or dodgy candidate can easily lose you a big contract and even your own job. I was lucky, never happened to me but I did come close on several occasions. For the record, I firmly believe that what a CV does NOT tell you is equally as important as what it does.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 9 May 16 at 20:53
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I cannot match what you have written, Harleyman.
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>> I cannot match what you have written, Harleyman.
>>
I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. :-)
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It is a compliment.
That is why I said it.
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>> I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. :-)
After the sniping, narking and bullying that's been too common here of late it's really good to read a proper informative post based on a forumer's real life knowledge.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 9 May 16 at 21:35
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>> After the sniping, narking and bullying that's been too common here of late
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxCqO8yR3o8
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 9 May 16 at 22:20
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>> After the sniping, narking and bullying that's been too common here of late it's really
>> good to read a proper informative post based on a forumer's real life knowledge.
>>
I see you are a fully paid up member of the self appointed forum police. I can see why you are not a moderator.
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We have had the worst trade deficit since the financial crisis in 2008.
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The schedule for the Flying Scotsman's tour of Scottish stations this weekend is being kept secret to avoid over-eager trainspotters disrupting the mainline services.
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>> The schedule for the Flying Scotsman's tour of Scottish stations this weekend is being kept
>> secret to avoid over-eager trainspotters disrupting the mainline services.
So what's the point of the tour?! To annoy the Scots, presumably.
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IDS says the EU favours the rich.
So why do the majority of his party (including him) want out?
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IDS apparently is in the midst of an individual social epiphany, brought about by his time as W&PS, I would guess, when it finally sank in that poor people really are disadvantaged and exploited.
I expect him to jump ship to the Respect party any day. He's sounding like his fellow Brexiteer, George Galloway, more and more.
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If the E.U favours the rich no wonder Cameron is voting REMAIN.
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The U.S labour force participation rate for March 2016 is only 62.8%.
The U.K. employment rate is 74.1% for March 2016.
If that statistic is not telling what is.
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>> If that statistic is not telling what is.
What is your interpretation?
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The amount of Americans not economically active is approaching 40% of their entire workforce.
The Americans need economic growth in excess of 8% of annual growth just to stand still.
The British economy grew by 0.4% last quarter wheras the American economy only grew by 0.1& in comparison.
I could go on and on about statistics but the figures tell one thing
The U.K economy is one of the rich worlds fasted growing.
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>> The amount of Americans not economically active is approaching 40% of their entire workforce.
My brother and his wife, both in their forties, live in California. They do not work. Not because they can't find work but because they have enough money and investments to allow them to retire early. They can't be alone in being able to do this but statistically they are not working.
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Tax cuts for the rich, welfare cuts for the poor - Armel Coussine
