I have spent the last week trying to unpick a pickle for a friend who I thought was a great deal smarter than he has actually turned out to be. His family has lost a truly large sum of money in an investment scheme which was somewhere between MLM and Ponzi.
To be honest I doubt any of you are daft enough, none of you seem it, but then I thought he was pretty smart too. So at the risk of stating the obvious I cut and paste this FWIW;
[Whoever you are, whatever our relationship, there is no time, not ever, that I will refuse to look at an investment for you, nor will I take any opportunity to be a S********, if you believe you need reassurance and think I can help. Please feel free to ask. Really. Much better talking to me than risking your pension]
XXX,
I am very sorry for xxxxxxxxxxx and don't want to be mean, but a part of me does think FFS!
How in God's name did it amount to that much? Didn't it occur to them after they'd lost about US$20k that something was badly wrong?
What were they doing investing money they couldn't afford to lose? Especially that much.
I really despair. Horribly sad though it is for them, what does it take to make people wary?
There are some basic clues which you should spread around your family;
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
If someone is promising you $100 when you'd actually be satisfied with $50, ask yourself why.
If you don't understand what you're told, ask again. Ask an expert. Ask for it in writing. Tell them you don't understand and want it explained a 3rd time. And so on and so on.
Do not be intimidated by flash people. Don't let them make you feel stupid for not understanding. Don't let them make you feel lucky.
Don't let them pressure you for time. if its a good deal today, it will still be a good deal a week next Tuesday.
If its so good, why are they letting you invest? Why aren't they holding on to all the profit for themselves?
In fact, ask how they are making their money. Is it from the same investment? Do they make any profit or gain from your investment? What risks do they face? Will they lose money if you lose money?
Of course they seem nice. Of course they seem like they know what they're doing. Of course they seem honest. They wouldn't be a very b***** successful con man if the were horrible, slimy and untrustworthy, now would they!
Currently people will invest and a truly great return is 8%. If you're offered more than that, ask why.
If someone is promising you 30%, 40% or 50% growth, then ask yourself why they are not just borrowing the millions from the bank and investing it themselves.
In fact, ask why the banks aren't investing.
NEVER, just NOT EVER, invest money you cannot afford to simply throw away.
If you couldn't afford to risk it in a casino, then don't risk it on an investment.
I have never seen a scam which was not completely b***** obviously a scam in hindsight. So try to get hindsight ahead of time.
If you have a doubt, ask. Ask me. Ask your bank. Ask a real investment company. Check on Google. But FFS, if you have a doubt, just don't do it.
Call you tomorrow,
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Great advice, Mark.
I have a friend who put £50 into Women empowering Women some years ago. Not much to lose but she couldn't afford to lose it.....and she did , in spite of me telling her several times that it was a Pyramid scheme and not to go near it.
A fool and his money ? not just fools though !
Nite nite.
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Saw an advert for "Holiday Lodges" at the weekend in a colour supplement type advert (posh caravans or maybe huge profits for seller me thinks)
£85,000 Upwards promising 18.5% yield if you rent it out!
If you had a solid business model that netted 18.5% you would borrow on long term finance at single figure rates and pocket the difference.
Friend of a friend had a timeshare the cost was high initially but it got worse when the weeks bought cost £300+ per week for "maintenance" - could not sell etc etc -
Death ended the contract after some 25 years which were largely unused or given away for free to friends & neighbours
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If a hundred of you send me £100 each this week, I promise to send back £200 to 25 of you next week. The rest of you will forfeit the £100.
Ludicrous suggestion? Maybe, but way better odds than the lottery.
;-)
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>> If a hundred of you send me £100 each this week, I promise to send
>> back £200 to 25 of you next week. The rest of you will forfeit the
>> £100.
>>
>> Ludicrous suggestion? Maybe, but way better odds than the lottery.
>>
>> ;-)
As there are only 25 of us on here, you are deep in the financial doo doo.
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Just send me the £100 then, I'll figure out the details later...
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My recently retired financial adviser mate (so not daft) went on a cheapo holiday to Malta in January. He's come back with a week of timeshare (late autumn I think) which cost him £14k up front and I think it was about £500 pa ongoing cost, may only have been £300.
For lots of reasons I wouldn't want timeshare but on financials alone that has to be a poor decision. His one week, all inclusive holiday was only £750 for him and SWMBO. I don't understand how he let himself be talked into it, he ain't stupid by a long way.
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These salesman are clever. Really clever. One of their tactics is to get you to perceive that the decision is not a financial one. If they can do that, then they can stop even a relatively smart person realising that it doesn't make financial sense.
That's why they talk about social position, personality type, legacy, security, exclusivity etc. etc. They introduce a doubt to you, one that wouldn't have occurred to you, to which they have a convincing position or response, and so settle it in your mind- and then ask now that you know that, why wouldn't you buy?
That explanation isn't very clear, but i know what I mean.
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now that you know that, why wouldn't you buy?
>>
>> That explanation isn't very clear, but i know what I mean.
And they always insist on selling to couples as a lifestyle. . Sell it to the wife and its a done deal.
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>>And they always insist on selling to couples as a lifestyle. . Sell it to the wife and its a done deal.
One of the tactics is to make the man he has something to prove to his wife. Like if he doesn't buy her the timeshare (or whatever) he is less of a man/husband.
I once watched and listened from a coffee shop as a fat and actually stupid older northern couple were sold a Portuguese timeshare they hadn't originally wanted and most certainly could not afford - it was a horrendously bad deal. When I finally could take no more and tried to caution them to take some time to think about it, not only did I get loudly and aggressively told to f*** off [in those words] by the couple, the salesman used my interruption as a catalyst to goad the couple into buying TWO weeks.
And they really couldn't afford it and it was a really bad deal. Although their extreme rudeness and unpleasantness to me stopped me worrying about it.
I knew another guy who bought a house from a builder in Spain, using a lawyer and a surveyor recommended by the builder. Of course it turned out to be a disaster with no clear title to the land nor permission to build a residence. I know he lost the house in the end, I think it was actually demolished.
Just because these salesman are unpleasant and their product ridiculous, it is dangerous to think they are stupid.
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>> Sell it to the wife and its a done deal.
>>
Shut yer Gob :-)
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Some do make really odd decisions when it comes to holidays. A very smart chap I know decided to buy a motor yacht which he keeps moored ( at not inconsiderable expense ) in the Med. The idea was that they would fly down to it regularly. Last year they were on it for two 3 day long weekends.
Another guy bought a timeshare in Marbella, somehow failing to recognise that it was on a week which didn't coincide with his children's school holidays.
A third bought a 50 grand motorhome "to have access to cheap holidays" It costs him storage, insurance, maintainance, depreciation etc etc and they've managed to use it for three weeks in the past 12 months.
And then there's my brother in law who has 3 motorbikes including a whizz bang Ducati which he doesn't have the time to ride.
I suspect some are seduced by a fantasy version of their lives which doesn't really exist and think they can buy happiness.
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>>He's come back with a week of timeshare (late autumn I think)
>> which cost him £14k up front
Assuming the timeshare seller gets 100% buy up and late Autumn's an average price, that's seven hundred grand for the property.
I was in the wrong job!
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Yeah, I 'd not looked at it that way - I did look at the place on the internet and the £14k was at the cheaper end of that location too!!
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I'm curious about the 'high pressure sales tactics' we read about in cases like this. Not that I've never made an unwise purchase, of course - I remember being persuaded to hand over a £60 joining fee for a gym that was less good and less convenient than the one I already used - but it's been small-scale foolishness.
I suppose I don't visit the resorts where these people reputedly operate but I'd like to think I'd do a sensible cost-benefit analysis before parting with that kind of money. But I imagine everyone else would like to think the same, yet plenty then fall for it anyway. So what do the sales people do?
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My Canadian buddy and I were at a loose end one day, and a bit hungry, and we were persuaded to go to a timeshare presentation in Daytona Beach, and the apartments on offer were actually fairly nice. However I did have my cynical head on and didn't really find the pitch too persuasive, but they were pretty generous with the food and drink.
That was, until they realised that neither of us were Americans therefore we were not eligible to buy :-)
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I remember going on a lads' week to Ibiza about 20 years ago, the timeshare peddlers were on to us like a flash, but soon realised we were mostly totally broke and uninterested in anything apart from drinking. Then one of them twigged that I spoke Russian and lobbied me heavily to join them as they were expecting a new route from Moscow to start flying in within the next few weeks. This was shortly after the Soviet Union went breasts skywards.
I was in temporary work at the time, of a poorly paid nature, and it was very tempting to give it a go, but the thought of a plane full of angry Russians who I had ripped off coming looking for me was not conducive to continuing my enjoyable drinking career at the time.
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>>I'd like to think I'd do a sensible cost-benefit analysis before parting with that kind of money.
The first thing is they are geniuses at selecting the mugs. If you look financially aware and unlikely to rise to their tactics, then you don't get selected or you get weeded out early on.
They introduce into the conversation and the decision process;
- time pressure
- a fear that you will miss the opportunity
- a belief that a"a real man" would go for it
- a belief that an astute and financially aware man would go for it
- a belief that *you* are getting a *special* deal
- make it a lifestyle purchase for the forward thinker
- make the purchase your access to a better group of people
- make not buying seem a slothful, unimaginative decision
- make buying a caring thoughtful legacy for the future
- make you feel lucky
- make you feel sorry for the salesman and not want to hurt his feelings
These people are experts at misdirection and emotional manipulation.
An analogy; I expect you cannot imagine why someone would stay in a physically abusive relationship? Its a similar approach to manipulation in many ways.
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"make the purchase your access to a better group of people"
I guess no one on here would ever buy a car with excess performance etc to what is needed just because we thought it might take us to a new level?
That sort of thing would never influence us, would it?
;-)
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>>
>> I guess no one on here would ever buy a car with excess performance etc
>> to what is needed just because we thought it might take us to a new
>> level?
>>
>> That sort of thing would never influence us, would it?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
Having just 'upgraded' to an 8 year old 1.8 automatic Avensis I can honestly say no ;-)
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>> Saw an advert for "Holiday Lodges" at the weekend in a colour supplement type advert
>> (posh caravans or maybe huge profits for seller me thinks)
>>
>> £85,000 Upwards promising 18.5% yield if you rent it out!
To quote myself from last August - saves writing it again.
"...stay clear of unregulated investments and the people who push them. I mean things like, fine wine, classic cars, art, brazilian hardwood plantations, storage units, holiday lodges, you get the idea. Some of the people who push these (who are not IFAs themselves) will actually introduce you to a tame IFA so they can flog you a regulated wrapper (usually a SIPP)."
I won't post a link but I expect another "investment" that will wreck the retirement plans of the unwary is airport parking spaces. Buy a £25,000 parking space and get a guaranteed 8% return for the first 2 years. I'm quite sure you would - put another way, they guarantee that if you pay them £25,000 you will get a guaranteed £4,000 back.
"Projected" returns increase to 10% in years 3 and 4, and 12% in years 5 and 6. And you can sell your parking space at any time...good luck with that.
Those returns by the way are virtually identical to those projected by the promoters of a not unrelated investment opportunity.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34995729
The tragedy is that the people who invest in these not only buy a very risky investment (to put it mildly) but they also frequently put almost everything they have in them, often cashing in valuable pension entitlements.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 7 Mar 16 at 11:51
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>> is airport parking spaces. Buy a £25,000 parking space and get a guaranteed 8% return for the first 2 years
Aha!! I was just offered that one as a special favour! 2yrs / £25k / 8%, has to be the same one. Park First?
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>> Aha!! I was just offered that one as a special favour! 2yrs / £25k /
>> 8%, has to be the same one. P** F***?
Yes, how many did you buy?
I avoided including the name, I think they probably do regular trawls of the internet for unwelcome comment and send threatening letters to get them taken down. We'll see!
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I didn't. I had a look whihc took me as far as actually reading the prospectus/brochure which was given to me over coffee.
It just struck me as a deal identical to the old Timeshare deals so I wasn't interested. It wasn't until your note this morning that I picked up on the Park / Store / Group First thing and bothered to search on the name Toby Whittaker.
I presume you realised that the link you pointed to Storefirst and Parkfirst are actually the same group?
Smoke/Fire etc.
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-2512352/TONY-HETHERINGTON-They-want-money---trouble-store-Desperate-sales-pitch-sets-alarm-bells.html
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 7 Mar 16 at 12:24
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>>I presume you realised that the link you pointed to Storefirst and Parkfirst are actually the same group?
Yes, Store First has already been featured on the BBC. The copy for Park First is almost a cut and paste.
I was attempting humour when I asked how many you had bought, sorry.
I'm not totally surprised that some intelligent people fall for this stuff. It's possible to be intelligent and do stupid things, and as you say the sales process is usually very manipulative.
The nearest I've come is a couple of £5,000 investments under the old BES scheme (precursor to EIS) that were set up to buy, refurbish and sell London residential property.
It wasn't a scam, and I did come out with a small return, but less than I would have made in a building society with access and almost no risk (plus the tax relief but that was no thanks to the promoters).
It was more or less engineered that way I think; there were lots of 'management fees' that seemed calibrated to hoover up any upside. One ran smoothly; the exit for the other was delayed by about two years and there was a bit of a shareholder revolt, but they coughed up eventually.
It gave me the odd disturbed night, but at least I hadn't bet the farm on it.
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>>I was attempting humour when I asked how many you had bought, sorry.
I realised. But I couldn't think of anything witty to come back with.
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Sister-in-law and husband bought a mattress from a presentation while on holiday in the Canaries. Strangely, it was sourced in this country (I wondered how they flew it back when they first told me).
Never used it, seemed much more comfortable when it was demonstrated over there...............
I was worn at loudly by time-share touts when on holiday in Portugal, for ignoring them. SWMBO and I eventually adopted the tactic of talking 'hurdy-gurdy' in their earshot.
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Mon 7 Mar 16 at 14:29
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All too easy to be conned and you need to be on your guard all of the time.
Even short term cons can be fruitful, beware of the usual scam phone calls, email and even texts that appear to be from the same number as your bank.
A recent one that I am skeptical about are the student accommodation proposals.
A firm converts an office block or builds new student accommodation. You buy a unit and enjoy the rent from students. Returns are between 8% and 10%. If its that lucrative why doesn't the firm keep all of the lets?
A similar scheme is being offered for hotel rooms.
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Should I now be regretting that I did not invest in wine a few years ago when those nice chaps from the boiler room kept calling me to invest in their 40% gain project ?
so thoughtful of them to keep reminding me of the urgency to invest less I miss the bloat.
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>> A recent one that I am skeptical about are the student accommodation proposals.
>>
>> A firm converts an office block or builds new student accommodation. You buy a unit
>> and enjoy the rent from students. Returns are between 8% and 10%. If its that
>> lucrative why doesn't the firm keep all of the lets?
Student lets do indeed get high returns easily in the 8-10%. There are several companies around that specialise in buying houses, coverting them, and letting and managing them for their investors and do indeed provide good ROI.
As in all things property, lovation location location.
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>> SWMBO and I eventually adopted the tactic of talking 'hurdy-gurdy' in their earshot.
>>
The wife and I do similar, switching to Serbo-Croat if it looks like someone from Bolton or similar is targeting a nice chat with someone "English", because they're fed up with the foreign food, or rude foreigners, or not-quite-as-expected weather, whatever it is they fancy moaning about. We learnt that after getting cornered by some whining Boltonians on a boat trip off Barbados during our Honeymoon. "Oh good, you're English", they said, and off we went............
At least TS peddlars (did I spell that incorrectly earlier? WDB will be along to advise shortly) can be told to eff off. (Apologies for any punctuation/capitalisation errors in the previous brackets, WDB.)
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A Hungarian friend of mine and his Hungarian wife were chatting freely and rudely in Hungarian about a couple next to them in a restaurant in Buenos Aires.
The couple turned out also to be Hungarian.
I was amuse.
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>> I was amuse.
Don't you start.
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>>Don't you start.
I are apologise.
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>> The couple turned out also to be Hungarian.
>>
>> I was amuse.
I was similarly amuse when a designer label dripping Russian couple started criticising fellow passengers' dress sense on a train some years ago. Was nice to let them know in their own language that they had been clearly understood and their opinions of my countrymen were not really appreciated, especially as I knew what kind of a dump their country was. Snigger.
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According to Oxford Dictionaries Online, 'peddler' is OK, formed from 'peddle', which was itself back-formed in the 16th century when we needed a word for what a pedlar does. 'Peddlar' is wrong.
Oh, and we when abroad tend to gravitate away from English voices. I loved the Pays de Duras wine country last year, but the street markets seemed to have as many Rosbif customers as locals.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 7 Mar 16 at 15:18
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FFS. I thought you were going to start some smart alec gag about bicycles or pedaloes or something. Pedaloes? Pedalos? I give up.
:-)
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A reference to Smart Alec (Alec Hoag) is definitely in the right thread!
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You want scam wine?
Go to Cellarlink.co.uk
Around a decade ago, a company called Australia Portfolio Wines sold a load of expensive wine (AUD50-100 per bottle) to Australian pensioners as an investment. They then shipped them over to the UK where they matured them for a decade. Of course, the market in the UK for expensive Australian wine is a few thousand bottles annually. In Australia they'd probably be fine (for all that they might not make a profit, they wouldn't lose everything).
So they have to pay annual storage fees in the UK which outstrip the likely retail value of the wine. It's all stored in bond, so they have to pay VAT - based on the initial purchase price including shipping and three years' 'free' storage - if it's sold.
It's good wine, and good prices for drinkers. But it does mean dealing with conmen if you want to buy it... Oh yes, and you get the best prices from them if you join their club...
This, for instance is stonking stuff:
www.cellarlink.co.uk/buy-wine-online/store/wine_kay-brothers-amery-hillside-shiraz-2002-750ml_342
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Is everyone else seeing the sidebar advert promising 'fixed 8% returns' for investing in shipping containers?
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Does the Pedlars Act still apply ? It was one of the first act taught to us at Police College in 1964. I think it was something to start you off on the beat.
Something like.......A pedlar...A person who goes from place to place and other men's houses, offering goods or services for sale or reward.....Can't remember the rest but there was a power of arrest if chummy didn't have a pedlar's certificate.
Never used the act but it might give persistent double glazing/solar panel doorstep salesmen a shoch !
One for WP there, I think.
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>>
>> Does the Pedlars Act still apply ? It was one of the first act taught
>> to us at Police College in 1964. I think it was something to start you
>> off on the beat.
>>
trouble is nowadays such people no longer go from house to house, it can all be done over the internet / telephone
How many laws of this kind fraud etc have been updated, or were drafted widely enough, to include internet activities
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I think there is a 'travels on foot' in there somewhere Ted.
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I think you're right there FC. Still, it would cover these so-called students who knock on yer door flogging paintings........now Jehovahs Witnii ?...I wonder.
They're offering me a service....salvation !
The only one who's actually given me a service was about 20, daughter of the house about 50 yrs ago. Say no more !
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My father was conned, many, many, many, years ago to "invest" in purchasing shares in breeding sows.
Ponzi scheme before Ponzi was heard of.
Lost £500, which way back then was serious money.
Last edited by: Roger. on Mon 7 Mar 16 at 23:37
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Con men and lousy investments.... - Ted
