BHS were bought out from Philip Green fairly recently is in trouble.
preview.tinyurl.com/j8j83rp
Never really bought anything in 50 years but another closed shop in a High St near you and lots of people losing their jobs.
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I'm surprised BHS didn't go years back. An absolute nothing shop.
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The customers, well, I assume it's the customers, unless it's a requirement to be employed there, often smell of wee in BHS. Used to be the same in Littlewoods and they buy their groceries in Morrisons.
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BHS has been on a downward spiral for years, it wont last 2016
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That clever bludger, Sir P. Green, outed it for a (k)nicker a short while ago.
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 5 Mar 16 at 15:09
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This para says it all
"It is nearly a year since BHS was sold for £1 by Sir Philip Green’s Arcadia Group to a previously obscure vehicle called Retail Acquisitions, backed by a group of financiers, accountants and lawyers."
They have probably sucked whatever assets and cash they can from it and are now looking for whatever tax relief a failed business gives them. Or some government grants.
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The BHS near me is confusing, expensive, slightly oppressive and when I went in had a 10 minute wait at the till while the assistant went through the most insanely complicated and convoluted refund process I've ever seen.
At least two members of staff were nearby - including the manager - and neither noticed that I was getting steadily hacked off with the wait. Not been back.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Sat 5 Mar 16 at 20:23
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>> At least two members of staff were nearby - including the manager - and neither
>> noticed that I was getting steadily hacked off with the wait. Not been back.
>>
Or didn't care. Turkeys voting for redundancy.
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Our local B&Q is closing down.
The local paper reported this on its Facebook pages and in amongst the comments was one from a customer saying that she want surprised as their customer service was awful. She had been in 2 days previously and there was a huddle of staff having a meeting on the shofloor and they totally ignored her and how shocking this was.
This comment was closely followed by another, who was a member of staff, who was in that meeting and who advised that the meeting was them being told that they were all getting made redundant!
Sometimes everything isn't how it may appear......
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>> This comment was closely followed by another, who was a member of staff, who was
>> in that meeting and who advised that the meeting was them being told that they
>> were all getting made redundant!
>>
>> Sometimes everything isn't how it may appear.....
She's lucky she wasn't nail gunned to the 32mm board with a 40mm waste pipe up her jacksie.
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Our local B&Q finally shut it's doors and barricaded the car park off a couple of weeks ago. Prime site, occupying a corner of a block which is the LCCC at Old Trafford. It's an old ten pin alley but I would expect to see it demolished and put to use by the LCCC.
We've four more B&Q outlets in striking distance so not too much of a loss although it was very convenient.
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Westfarmers, who own Bunnings (Australian B&Q on steroids) have bought Homebase. I look forward to seeing any changes. Free Saturday BBQ in the car park like Bunnings? Costco do free coffee and muffins during weekday mornings.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 6 Mar 16 at 09:06
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We have both B&Q and Homebase within a twenty minute drive. I much prefer the customer service in Homebase, although B&Q is a much bigger store and I think their prices might be a tad lower.
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The only B&Q near me is in Cardigan and that closes in May. The building is the old Focus store which went six or seven years ago.
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Best stock up on angle brackets then. They always run out when you most need them.
Having said all that, last week, 'she' wanted me to repair an old table lamp. It needed a new bulb holder which turned out to be a non-standard size. I drove to a B&Q superstore 6 miles away but not only had they not got one they couldn't even say whether such a thing still existed.
Disappointed, I drove home but then remembered an old ironmongers / hardware store in our local town. You know the sort of place, full to the gunwales of stuff you've forgotten existed, sells paraffin lamps and seeds and stiff brooms etc.
Staffed by a father and son in brown lab coats over a shirt and tie and they give you a hand written receipt.
I'd never been in before but thought I'd try just in case.
"Yes sir, we have those, now, would you be wanting a white plastic, a black plastic, a brass or a chrome finish sir? Oh and would you prefer the switched type or just the standard holder?"
"Switched brass one then please"
"Certainly sir, that's £3.99 though I'm afraid, the brass ones are a little dearer than the plastic ones"...
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We have one of those, Humph. Run by a nice Asian gentleman. It's a bit of a problem negotiating your way round as he's got so much stuff. Lots inherited from the previous, Polish, owner.
We always have a bit of banter with him trying to overcharge me and me trying to get a discount or complaining about the price. We always seem to settle on the right cost though !
There's also an old time engineering suppliers where you can Thackray washers, Oddie nuts and all sorts of wonderful Whitworth stuff.
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I held back from asking if he had any fork handles or hose but I'm sure he would have !
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BHS is just a joke, I don't think I have ever spend a penny in it but then I try and avoid any shops owned by Green.
I miss my local B&Q it was very handy but also expensive for a lot of things. I find the combination of Screwfix and Selco works very well.
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>>BHS is just a joke
+1
They are an anchor store at my local mall and you have to pass through it to get to the car park.
Nothing in there appeals and to make things worse the floor layout makes it difficult to get from the car park to the doors. Goodness knows what would happen in a fire!
The building would make an excellent entertainment venue it is on two floors so a cinema or bowling alley would be good. Unfortunately town centre rents for these things are usually too expensive!
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>>They have probably sucked whatever assets and cash they can from it
They'll be lucky; £100m per year losses, £130m pension deficit, and whilst it has £200m in real estate the agreement prevents them removing that money from the company.
Green is smart, asset stripping it was made impossible. The agreed deal *only* worked if the intention was to continue as a viable business.
BHS started to go wrong when it decided it want to move up market. They spent a great deal of money and it never really worked.
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Looks like its days are numbered if there is muct truth in this article
tinyurl.com/zzfd472
"over a third of an £8.4m loan taken out of BHS by its new owners in March last year went to four directors who were part of the consortium, giving them a multimillion-pound gain just days after acquiring the beleaguered department store chain."
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I don't know how the company is fairing these days, but I often wonder what is the point of WH Smith any more. The books you can get cheaper on Amazon and with a much greater selection and the stationary in any of the cheap shops, often the same or similar stuff at a fraction of the price.
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Would that it were not all about price though, I love a good old fashioned stationers or bookshop. I used to like a proper tobacconists too, and a barber who sharpened things on a leather strop.
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and a barber who
>> sharpened things on a leather strop.
>>
Was that before he bled you? ;-)
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I had a £25.00 gift card to spend at Smiths up until a few days ago. I called in one branch and there was nothing I wanted. I went to a majorish branch in an University town where I finally bought a few books. Just gone really low rent. Days are numbered I reckon
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The High St WHS's days may well be numbered. Rarely more than a dozen people in the branch in Northampton.
OTOH it seems to thrive in franchise form as the newsagent/confectioner and purveyor of distress purchases at motorway srvices, rail stations and airports.
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I bought a Yorkie bar in the one at Burton-in-Kendal ( I think it's called ) services today. Chuffing expensive, but it was there...
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>> I bought a Yorkie bar in the one at Burton-in-Kendal
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeQNPJtMWY
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WHS started in 1792 as a newspaper round. A reading room in 1821, and the first of the railway shops was started in 1848. In addition to what you see, they are a big player in newspaper and magazine distribution.
If the firm goes under, a management failing as any business that has been going that long ought to know by now to adapt to changing conditions.
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Who said WH Smith was failing? Their days of being the book shop or music shop to visit are gone but they seem to have plenty of small shops/franchises in key locations like railway stations, airports, service stations. I bought plenty of books from WH Smith in my day (a few novels a week at one time) and music too. There was no Waterstones for me back then for books.
... although WH Smiths bought Waterstones and sold it again. Anyway this thread is about BHS.
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And who remembers Dillons? Some of those apparently became Waterstones shops.
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...fairing...stationary...
You can still buy a dictionary there.
};---)
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>>They'll be lucky; £100m per year losses, £130m pension deficit, and whilst it has £200m in
>>real estate the agreement prevents them removing that money from the company.
The Telegraph lists £25m they've taken out...
The movement on the pension deficit is terrifying though. A small movement in interest rates (half of one percent, or so) is rather a lot when it's a movement from 1.3 to 0.8.
I wonder why Philip Green is 'voluntarily' contributing £80m to the pension fund though. I bet it's not just because he's a nice person...
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Retailer BHS is understood to be calling in administrators, threatening up to 11,000 jobs across the UK.
news.sky.com/story/1684337/bhs-jobs-fears-as-company-nears-collapse
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Cannot remember when I last bought anything from them. Used to be a go to for work slacks - they did waist/leg combo that fitted without alteration - and leisure shirts. Rohan's 'smart casual' trousers (not bags before WdeB gets started) however wear much better, particularly when commuting by bike. Greenwoods, albeit another brand from the past, do a better fitting shirts.
Other thing BHS once did well was lighting. But B&Q are better and you can park outside.
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I think that's the problem: it's been bypassed as the DIY sheds have moved into 'homewares', clothing has gone niche or online, John Lewis has increased its reach, and Ikea has got absolutely b***** everywhere. BHS was where your mum went - unless she preferred to be seen with an M&S bag - and as that generation has died out, or at least stopped buying bedding and lampshades, BHS has failed to adapt.
I used to buy pillowcases and the like from the one in Solihull, but that was nearly 20 years ago. Can't think when I last even went inside one.
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I heard a rumour that you need to show ID at the door to prove you're over 70, and even then it seems they may not let you in unless you smell faintly of wee and are already wearing mostly beige items. They may have relaxed that now given their current difficulties.
;-)
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Maybe if they sold gloves that you could wear to operate the touchscreen of your Jazz...
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Would have thought their customers were more in the Korean car demographic, you know, the sort of car you'd buy when you really really no longer care.
;-)
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Now formally in Administration with Duff and Phelps as administrators. Continuing to trade for time being but I wonder if (as with Comet) supplies will dry up and stores quickly empty.
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Very sad, and hard for the employees. It will always happen of course, when the necessity or desire for efficient use of capital means high debt/rent commitments and any sustained difficulty in trading or margins can capsize a retail business.
Another big one into the Pension Protection Fund, which will protect 90% of the value of most pensions with a limit on increases. Contrary to popular supposition, the government does not underwrite the PPF, which could actually run out of money at some point, being supported by a levy on DB schemes not in the PPF themselves, and many of which are in run-off.
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I was amazed to see that Greenwoods is still going, after I checked when Bromp mentioned it the other day.
Looking at its website, it does seem to have changed its target audience age from where I remember it. I think my great uncle Nelson used to buy those very high waisted trousers and flat caps there. Good luck to them.
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>> I was amazed to see that Greenwoods is still going, after I checked when Bromp
>> mentioned it the other day.
For many years they were headquartered in Guiseley, almost next door to Harry Ramsdens with a list of stores on the gable end of the premises.
Passed it on way to school every day.
Now in Bradford I think.
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There's a bizarre chain round here called M&co, of which I'd never heard till we moved to the town I now inhabit (which I choose not to name because I have Vić to do that for me.) It seems to me like BHS without the style, panache, charisma or even range. I bought a face flannel there about three years ago but I have no real idea what else I might go there for. So that could be next for the drop, if anyone's heard of it.
I got married in an Austin Reed suit. Still have it, it still fits but I'll have to wait for that boxy 1990s style to return before I can wear it again.
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Not sure what's bizarre about M and Co . They sell reasonably priced clothes for people with not a lot to spend. Surprised you haven't noticed them before - they are everywhere. Presumably they are very successful.
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>> Not sure what's bizarre about M and Co . They sell reasonably priced clothes for
>> people with not a lot to spend. Surprised you haven't noticed them before - they
>> are everywhere.
In lots of places but some way from 'everywhere'. Nearest to here are in Buckingham and East Northants. Neither are places I'd go by habit.
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According. To WikipEdia they have 300 branches in the UK although Being Scottish they have a strong presence north of the border. They tend to have branches in the smaller towns. I think their strategy is to be a big fish in a small pond. Privately owned and still going strong.
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M&Co were formerly McKays - owned by 2 brothers based out of Paisley - an NLE - nice little earner.
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>> There's a bizarre chain round here called M&co, of which I'd never heard till we
>> moved to the town I now inhabit (which I choose not to name because I
>> have Vić to do that for me.)
I are surprise. Bit low rent for the WDH, eh? Primark next. You'll have to move to upwardly mobile Reading soon.
;-)
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It seems strange that we can support that but not an M&S. We've got a Bensons Beds now where Cargo used to be. Fat lot of use that is.
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You've no need for the big chains, they've all got branches a few miles away in proper towns like Reading and Maidenhead. Twee saw-you-coming-shops with overpriced kitchen wares displayed in their chic Victorian ye olde shoppe windows were the thing in HoT, I thought. Evidently even those are finding times hard these days and M&Co are moving in .
Maybe Turkish Grill will open a branch on the town square soon.
;-)
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Yes, the twee stuff is unwelcome. A fusty but nice independent furniture shop closed last year and its site went to a place called Vinegar Hill, which is just insulting. It sells nothing you would ever consider buying for yourself. B. Minor unwisely went in there for a Mother Day present and paid £9 of his own money for a tacky tin that - we discovered when we deciphered the poorly printed label - contained 100g of very ordinary fudge. I know people need to make a living but I really wish they could think of a better way.
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I expect the current trend of Hipsterism isn't helping.
I like to visit your town for a riverside stroll and a pint in The Angel, but shopping? Nope.
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Harry Enfiled's take:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVvcD4Czx4Y
I should be careful, Reading's first one opened in a disused fire alarm supplier's office on Caversham Road recently. And we have a café/kitchenware shop of the type in Caversham itself too called, teeth grindingly, "Siblings Home".
Gah.
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Rumour has it that a large pets store chain may bring in the retrievers.
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My local water company has gone into liquidation.
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Our local Origami people have folded.
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There's a rumour that Microsoft is going to crash.
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We have an M&co in our local high street. Not sure i've ever bought anything in there though
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Looks like Dominic Chappell - the twice ex bankrupt 90% shareholder has had his hand in the till then.....
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36146161
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Creditors warned to be in a queue.
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>> Creditors warned to be in a queue.
>>
Or if you are Obama not reading Cameron's script - a line!
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Is he an interfering menace to the UK's independent decision-making or Cameron's poodle, Rog. I don't see that he can be both.
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So it seems one of the owners of BHS before it went into administration is interested in buying it. Is that even allowed? I assume that since they have got rid of the burden of pension deficit of £570m and he wouldn't buy the 40 stores that aren't profitable ... it might work.
But they got it for £1 before. And it might be similar again.
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Yes, but the dealust be justifiable as a good and appropriate deal, and the best solution taking all factors into account.
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Smacks of the Phoenix Four who abstracted as much as they could from Rover/MG cars.
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I thought that too Slidingpilar. So when one of the current owners wants to buy it again but without the big hole that is/was the pensions.... makes you wonder if this was always the plan. This is the same individual who transferred £1.5m to a company called BHS Sweden and was forced to transfer it back.
Philip Green did okay with his dividends didn't he. For a failing company. Does not come out of this looking good either.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 28 Apr 16 at 17:41
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>> Philip Green did okay with his dividends didn't he. For a failing company. Does not
>> come out of this looking good either.
>>
Lots of numbers being chucked around about how much he has made, but I don't think its as much as the press would have you believe.
From what I can see in the public domain:-
Between 2002 and 2004 he took 400 odd in dividends - nothing after this point as it wasn't really making anything
Some sale and lease back deals on buildings he rented back to BHS plus interest on loans netted him about another 200, so hes about 600 up.
In contrast he paid £200m for BHS and sold for £1
Wrote off £210m in loans when he sold it
Is still owed £40m in unpaid loans
Will probably have to come up with something to keep the pension regulator happy, so I reckon hes going to end up not far off even by the end
Also worth noting that he left £60m in cash in BHS plus £100m in property. He added a specific clause in the sale contract that the new owners could not sell the property and remove the cash (asset strip) so I think he really wanted it to continue as a going concern
Last edited by: mikeyb on Thu 28 Apr 16 at 19:54
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I have a sadness that BHS has gone into administration.
11 thousand jobs are a lot to lose.
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>> Between 2002 and 2004 he took 400 odd in dividends - nothing after this point as it wasn't really making anything
Maybe the business couldn't afford that £400m and it suffered. Just saying. Maybe it should have been invested in the business.
Maybe he will end up even. But that's perhaps because the business was let to fail a long time ago.
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I haven't looked into it, but a good trick is to pay out dividends from cash needed to operate the business, replacing the cash with debt. If you happen to have a large pension deficit at the same time, some might say that was morally reprehensible, even if not illegal.
I'd be pretty sure that if P. Green is making contributions to the pension trust, then somebody has been leaned on by the Pensions Regulator.
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I agree Manatee about the leaning on bit. He's said to have agreed to pay £80m into the pension pot or something. Maybe the £400m should have been instead.
If the pension scheme was in better health, BHS would have sold for more than £1. With a £571m deficit... who'd buy that!?!
Maybe plan was buy it for a £1.... let it fail. Pension liabilities removes. Buy it again for a £1. And then it works.
I feel sorry not only for the 11,000 employees but those with pensions. Both pensioners retired and future pensioners.
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The pension deficit is a complete red herring.
Twelve months ago when he sold the business it was £100m. Now it's £500m. In 2004 when he paid out his last dividend (according to a poster above) I don't imagine there was a deficit at all. Nor was one imagined.
Pension deficits are a result of the micro-interest rates we have at the moment. They are a magical (actuarial) calculation.
If interest rates reach 10% then these pension deficits will all be replaced with massive pension surpluses. (We will have other problems.)
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I had no idea what the deficit was when the dividends were paid but you are quite right Mapmaker. Valuations vary wildly in relation to equity valuations and bond yields. My main occupational scheme's deficit has tripled over 4 or 5 years despite no new benefits being accrued in that time.
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Apparently the fund was at a small surplus in 2000 when Green took over and slipped to 80m deficit by 2004.
This is the period when he took 400m out, but it appears the company was making about £100m a year.
The fund returned back to surplus by 2008, and then the credit crunch hit.
By December 2015 the deficit was 225m so I'm not sure where the 500 odd number being bounced about come from?
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>> By December 2015 the deficit was 225m so I'm not sure where the 500 odd
>> number being bounced about come from?
I haven't tried to find the answer but there could be a few reasons for that difference. Actual valuations are normally only done every three years, so the figure quoted may or may not be as of the date when it was reported. The funding position can change rapidly when gilt yields or equity values move,so they will have been hammered in the first quarter of 2016 if they had a lot of equities (which they did).
There are also different types of valuation. The actuarial one used by the trustee to negotiate with the company on a recovery plan and based on the asset mix to be held will give a much lower figure for the liabilities than the "buyout" valuation, based on buying gilts to cover the expected liabilities, which is nearer to what they would have to pay an insurance company to take on the obligations.
There are a couple of unqualified smart alec comments (quotes) in this article -
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/25/bhs-pension-regulator-sir-philip-green-analysis
One is “They [the trustee] chose to bet on equities, rather than matching long-dated bonds. But in 2012 they set out a recovery plan of 23 years, which is far too long. The company should have been putting more money in, more quickly.â€
The trustee is in a cleft stick. They would always like to hold matched bonds, but then the deficit will be much bigger. Holding equities (taking risk) improves the expected return and reduces the deficit, but will lead to bigger variations in the funding position year by year.
Another is A spokesperson for BHS’s former owners said: “There was an independent board of trustees who had sole control of the pension funds and they made the decisions. If a deal was agreed of £x to be paid that was the deal. They were free to do whatever they liked.â€
Well, no they weren't. I have no doubt that the trustee would have liked to have got the full amount from the company but couldn't. The recovery plan has to be agreed and has to be approved by the Pensions Regulator, who will raise an eyebrow at anything over 10 years but the trustee has to do a deal with the company that is realistic. If the trustee has done its job properly they will have taken "covenant advice" to assist them in understanding the company's position and negotiating the best compromise.
The trustee, within reason, will want to do what it can to help the company survive. A deficit is not a problem if the company is around and paying what it has agreed. It only becomes a problem when there is a default (as there now will be).
There's a bunch of stuff here for anybody who is interested.
www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/trustees/db-recovery-plans.aspx
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What are you trying to say?
I need help.
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In a nutshell,
- the failure of the pension scheme if it happens it isn't likely to be the fault of the trustee. They should have done the best deal they can as they judge it, with the help of advisers, with the company.
- the deficit of £500m+ may or may not be what is required to plug the gap of the pensions that have to be paid over the next maybe 50+years.
- the number (the amount of money that the scheme should have now, to be able to pay all the expected benefits in the future) can be calculated in a number of ways. The biggest version is always the amount that would have to be given to an insurance company to take on the liabilities. I think that might be the one that is being bandied about.
The criticism of the trustee sounds like a smear or excuse to me. But I don't know that for certain because much of the information around that will not be public, and I haven't looked for it anyway.
Trustees are highly regulated and for schemes of that size I would be surprised if the trustee has not taken its responsibilities very seriously.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 29 Apr 16 at 23:24
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"Retailer BHS set for liquidation" www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36437445
Reading the last (not latest) issue of Private Eye they relate just how much money the Green family have taken out of BHS, and how Philip was aware of the background of Dominic whatisname that took it over (thrice bankrupt). There is so much shady stuff goes on, with Green's wife alone getting dividends and interest payments of £137m, and Green controlled companies taking rent payments etc. PE says "even after £200m in an inter-company write-off, the Green offshore interests have emerged well ahead from the looming BHS wreckage. Dividends, rents, bond repayments and interest together with future 2009 sale payments total at least £775m"
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>>There is so much shady stuff goes on
Shady as in undesirable, certainly, but as in illegal? Very rarely.
The trouble is these people and corporations follow the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit. Much as we all do / would do, I guess.
Quite honestly if I could manipulate £775m out of a corporation into my pocket legally I would do it. Wouldn't we all?
The law needs changing, particularly around inter-company trading where the ownership is the same/similar.
I'm not sure I know how exactly, perhaps simplifying the law and then giving some kind of "ethics committee" jurisdiction would work. Perhaps allowing HMRC more freedom to make retrospective and subjective assessments.
The trouble is such things are fraught with even more potential for abuse and personal agendas.
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...Perhaps allowing HMRC more freedom to make retrospective and subjective assessments.
The trouble is such things are fraught with even more potential for abuse and personal agendas.
Yup, I can just see the squeals from the person who had done everything legally, just, only to find a tax demand based on a retrospective interpretation.
The only ones who'll come out ahead here are the lawyers, I see them rubbing their hands with glee even now.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Thu 2 Jun 16 at 16:32
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I don't think I've seen such a forthright and brutal bashing doled out by corporate executives (at least in a public forum)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36476860
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"When Mr Chappell's promises "unravelled", rather than "putting money in" he had "his fingers in the till," Mr Topp said."
Either there is some serious covering of ones back going on or Chappell really is one of life's undesirables
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BHS on the brink - needs rent reductions + funding - Robin O'Reliant
