The below is a full
statement from Chief Inspector Darren Wareing regarding an incident involving a dog which was running loosely on the A55 during the early hours of Monday, February 22nd:
Shortly after 3am on Monday 22nd February, several calls were received in the North Wales Police Control Room concerning a dog which was running loose on the A55 at varying locations between the Llanfairfechan roundabout and the Conwy tunnel.
Officers from the Roads Policing Unit attended and attempts were made to try and catch the dog.
Despite several attempts to catch the dog, it continued to run in and out of traffic. At one point an officer tried to take hold of the dog but was then bitten. Further attempts were made to catch the dog, which was by now running in the middle of an unlit carriageway with approaching traffic having to take avoiding action at speeds in excess of 70mph. One car and a HGV had to swerve to avoid the dog whilst the officers remained on foot in the carriageway.
The potential for a serious collision was present throughout, and in the circumstances there was no alternative way that officers could contain the dog and minimise risks to motorists. The only safe option was to run the dog over at sufficient speed to ensure that it was destroyed and would not suffer. Other methods of destruction were considered, but were ruled out on the grounds of public safety.
Fast roads such as the A55 present inherent risks, and to have vehicles including a HGV having to swerve in the dark was deemed unacceptable as the officers witnessed a number of near misses, and were highly concerned about the potential aftermath of a high speed collision.
Both officers have their own dogs and did not take this decision lightly. Due to the seriousness of the incident it needed bringing to a conclusion quickly for the safety of all concerned.
Could they not have closed the road at that time for a short time and sent in a dog handler?
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Could they not have closed the road at that time for a short time and sent in a dog handler?
Just for a stray dog?
It's not that easy to close a main road especially at night - by the time that had been organised there could have been a serious accident
Action taken seems completely appropriate
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Social Networking is ablaze with this up here. Some calling the Police murderers. It was decision taken based on the dynamics of the time, chances are there was a lot of ferry traffic (including heavies) westbound at that time. The location given is vague but there are 24/7 roadworks at present and contraflows on a good section of that road. Dog Handlers may or may not have been available, either not on duty or one covering the Force area (which is large and rural), clear from the statement that Firearms were considered but assessed as being too dangerous. There may have been insufficient Patrol Cars working at that time to do a rolling block on two carriageways (which is what would have beeb required) given that a dog would have cleared the barrier in one leap. The road at that section is unlit. Wombles and RSPCA are fast asleep in their beds. So go figure the best solution !
Meanwhile a Police Officer hung himself earlier that day no-one saying anything about that.
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Maybe there were only the two rozzers, and possibly one vehicle. Not possible to close the road without waiting for support, in which time there could have been a serious accident.
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The dog escaped from a local hunt it seems. Don't think it was a home loving pooch. Not that it makes a difference. A very experienced retired Traffic acquaintance of mine is seriously questioning what happened and I trust her judgement - we live in strange times, where a relatively small incident becomes viral
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They don't seem to clarify how it was knocked down?
So if the dog is bounding about from lane to lane, too dangerous for a marksman, how did they manage to aim better with a 2 ton vehicle?
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Dunno I wasn't there ! Judging by the outcry up here there will be some sort of enquiry.
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It does have the sound of a cobbled up account.
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Dog Run Over by Car.
Hardly the event of the century. I suppose it will be on the front page of the Mail tomorrow
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>> Dog Run Over by Car.
>>
>> Hardly the event of the century. I suppose it will be on the front page
>> of the Mail tomorrow
>>
Dog bites man - not newsworthy
Man bites dog - DM headline
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>> The dog escaped from a local hunt it seems. Don't think it was a home
>> loving pooch.
Now now, don't upset Mappy, he says pack hounds are perfect fireside home loving pooches who wouldn't possibly bite anyone trying to save their lives.
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>> home loving pooches who wouldn't possibly bite anyone trying to save their lives.
They are as gentle as your average dog. And a heck of a lot gentler than many dogs, but more boistrous than some. Only dog that has ever bitten me was a black lab. I've quite cheerfully fallen asleep curled up with a pack of foxhounds, and would let a child do so too*.
And as likely to bit somebody trying to save their life as any other terrified dog.
Returning to the case in question, I'm not sure what a "dog handler" could have done. They don't have magic powers; this was a dog doing 20mph amongst traffic doing 70mph. I'm not jumping up and down to say that the police took the wrong decision. There was a packed A55 with lots of human lives at stake.
I doubt very much, however, that it could be considered a 'humane' method of despatch. Whoever took that decision is likely to find themselves being prosecuted by the RSPCA.
____________________________
*I wouldn't actually let a child fall asleep with any dog. Or cat. Or hamster. The possibility for misunderstanding is just too great.
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Going back to my point, how did they manage to hit this dog that was darting all over lanes in amongst traffic with their own patrol car at speed?
Or did they accidentally knock it down and are now trying to say it was deliberate?
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I think it was right. Imagine if RP had hit the damn thing, as a local lad on one of his mopeds and been thrown off under another vehicle.
Many years ago we were taught to kill a severely injured animal on the road by lying it with it's neck in front of a wheel and driving forward to cut off it's breathing. I expect other ex fuzz had their own methods. I never had to do this, but I once killed a very badly injured cat which was screaming. The only thing to hand, apart from my staff, was a house brick. You tried not to do it in public, though......too distressing.....as it was for me.
Bit difficult with anything much larger, though.
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>> I once killed a very badly injured cat which was screaming
I may have heard of someone who's done that on the road before. Car coming the other way runs over sprinting moggy, causing some kind of cerebral short circuit and most probably many broken bones. Moggy flails around wildly for a few seconds, then the someone puts it out of its misery pronto. The alternative would have been for the animal to suffer an agonising demise over the next hour or two, as well as causing extreme and long-lasting distress for the owners (if located) when they see their beloved pet writhing around in such pain. Plus the vets' bills should they try to scrape it up and get it fixed.
As a cat owner I can sympathise with the sudden loss of a family pet, but for me human lives always come first.
EDIT: Having read the DT story below, I would like to clarify that it wasn't me.
Last edited by: Dave_ on Wed 24 Feb 16 at 13:14
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>> >>
>>
>> I doubt very much, however, that it could be considered a 'humane' method of despatch.
>> Whoever took that decision is likely to find themselves being prosecuted by the RSPCA.
The offence surely is "causing unnecessary suffering"?
So to convict it would be necessary to prove
a) suffering
b) that it was unnecessary
So it would only need to be as humane as was possible in the circumstances, not as humane a method as possible in ideal conditions.
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>>The offence surely is...
The offence is irrelevant when confronted with the ire of the self-appointed and sanctimonious arbiter of what is an acceptable way to treat animals.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1515201/Two-years-and-50000-later-ordeal-of-policeman-who-put-dying-cat-out-of-its-misery-is-finally-over.html
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That's one of the reasons I would never give a bean to the RSPCA.
Apart from anything else, it's stupid - what does it now expect the next policeman to do when confronted with the same situation? I hope that question has been put to it.
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I still hope that the RSPCA does more good than none, but this and similar stories of ridiculous behaviour do seem to abound.
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I'd Love to support the RSPCA. I can't. Far too much money goes on management and political shenanigans. If they had any balls they would sort out the Kennel Club, another monstrous organisation that probably allows and promotes more suffering than is legal.
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>> what does it now expect the next policeman to do when confronted with the same situation?
It doesn't care. It (thought it) had a good chance of convicting a policeman.
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2015 Financial Report, if you can bothered, its all here. [the link to the report is right at the bottom of the page]
www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/aboutus/reports/annualreview
Two figures jump out.....£126m income received, £38m spent directly on Animal Welfare. There was also £10m spent on prosecutions split into Legal & Welfare, whatever that may mean.
What is clear, from this report, is that the RSPCA is a business, not a charity and it should be judged on the quality of its product. I don't have a problem with it being a business, but it seems to me that its product isn't good enough and is very expensive.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 24 Feb 16 at 13:52
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I lost it with the RSPCA forty odd years ago when I was working in the control room taking 999 calls.
A woman rang in desperate for help, he bitch was having a delivery , which was in breech. About midnight, I think. RSPCA refused point blank to help or give advice.
I called our local Animals in Distress who sent their vet out as a matter of urgency to sort it out.
Money and publicity with their TV shows......that's all they seem to want. They get nowt from me.
Animal in Distress also took two cats in for us. They'd been dumped in a metal box on me ole mam's doorstep with a crap stained note in it asking to be looked after. No problem for them at all. I bought them a load of pet food afterwards.
I've always found that a sack, some bricks and the river work well....only kidding, Pat.
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There used to be an outfit called the PDSA (People's Dispensary for Sick Animals). Don't know if it was connected with the RSPCA. It would treat or put down animals belonging to poor people who couldn't afford a vet.
Can't help wondering if the NSPCC gets as much money as the RSPCA from gifts and donations. We British are notorious for our harshness to children and our mawkish sentimentality where animals are concerned.
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A cat ran under my wheels as I turned a corner in rapid and stylish manner in the Gate many years ago. I saw it in the rv mirror leaping high in the air, and stopped to look for it, but it had fled down a passage between two houses and wasn't to be found. It probably had a broken back and other injuries and I didn't give much for the poor little blighter's chances. Cats are surprisingly tough... perhaps it survived but I doubt it. Indeed I have a vague memory of a neighbour saying he had seen it dead.
I felt bad about it but it was just one of those things.
Another time I had to brake very hard indeed to avoid killing a dog on a dual carriageway, some sort of naughty mongrel terrier thing. The nose of the car actually hit it, but not hard enough to do any serious damage. Animals are crap at traffic, they can't judge speed that exceeds their own maximum.
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>> There used to be an outfit called the PDSA (People's Dispensary for Sick Animals). Don't
>> know if it was connected with the RSPCA. It would treat or put down animals
>> belonging to poor people who couldn't afford a vet.
>>
>>
>>
www.pdsa.org.uk/
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They have a branch in Abergele....just off the A55.
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>> They have a branch in Abergele....just off the A55.
>>
They have a charity shop here in Chorlton-cum-Hardy. There's a clinic a mile away as well.
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>>is a business, not a charity
Of course, legally it's a charity. But I appreciate that's not your point.
I think it's very difficult to know, these days, when a business becomes a charity/vice versa. So many charities are 100% state funded, doing things that the state would otherwise do. Dealing with drug addicts; running schools etc. etc. And of course, these charities have to tender for the contracts, and sometimes they lose, so their staff TUPE to the new charity running the contract. It's all even more surreal than the railway franchises.
The RSPCA has more money than it knows what to do with. Nearly 18 months' expenditure if you look at the accounts (mostly cash, investments and deferred income, ignoring the extensive freehold property). It burns through large amounts of cash from dead old ladies, much of it on prosecuting little old ladies with too many kittens.
I have no problem with the RSPCA's putting down unwanted animals; the alternative is that they linger, unwanted, in shelters, which surely is worse.
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>>It burns through large amounts of cash from dead old ladies, much of it on prosecuting little old ladies with too many kittens.
Yes and it is quite litigious as well, often challenging wills. Of course it doesn't have to pay the cost of these challenges, the estate pays!
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Gawd!
I had to kill a field mouse once. The cat had broken its back and it was clearly in pain.
I am convinced it was the most humane thing to do, but it really upset me having to do it.
From the article, the police officer did the right thing and must have been upset at having to do it.
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Raises an interesting question.
Were the costs awarded to the defendant? ie did the RSPCA have to find anything more than its own costs?
Last edited by: neiltoo on Wed 24 Feb 16 at 15:14
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35648941
This is getting serious!
...with Sky News presenter Kay Burley saying those responsible should feel "shame"
Suggestions like shut the road - (in both directions?)
The dog is not contained in one carriageway.
It will wait in the space till all are ready to address the situation.
Then we get what if it was a sheep, a cow, a horse? from a vet!
The police cannot win. Why are they not out catching criminals ?
Do not worry we have the whole of the night shift on the way a marksman, dog handler, vet
H&S yet do an assessment and.......
i
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That'll be the same Kay Burley who gave rise to one of the funniest set of tweets I've ever seen (as reported by the Mail and seen here before)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319270/Sky-News-presenter-Kay-Burley-mocked-tweeting-picture-dog-Paris-caption-sadness-eyes.html
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You could see the sadness in it's eyes !
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-35650395
Police said the dog's owner was "devastated" but agreed officers had made the right decision.
The dog had gone missing from a hunt and police said the owner supported the force's decision.
Chf Supt Sacha Hatchett said: "He [the owner] said he appreciates that given the risk to human life, the officers made the correct decision. He is supportive of the police as had there been a serious accident he said he could not have lived with himself."
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I do wonder if these complainers live in the real world sometimes.
Dog killed - very unfortunate but its a dog. Police prosecuted by RSPCA for killing dog.
Dog not killed. Escapes before the police can close the road. Runs in front of trucks. Truck swerves, wipes out family of 4 in a Ford Focus. Police prosecuted for manslaughter not closing road.
Kafkaesque to say the least!
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It's mainly the difference between 'townies' and 'country folk'.
I've been both, as I grew up in the countryside.. then left aged 17 to live in our capital city, stayed there 31 years ..and am now 4 years back in the countryside again.
I was always taught 'never leave an animal in pain'... and if the circs are such, then that means you might have to despatch it yourself.
Two things spring to mind, as memories:
1, On the way to work one morning, driving past my local park.. a squirrel ran out, did what they do running this way, then that... and I inadvertently ran over its back legs. I could see it in the mirror trying to pull itself along by its front legs, as the back part was crushed and not working. So, I stopped, reversed back the road and deliberately ran over the rest of it... thus putting it out of its misery.
Christ, what a rumpus in my office when I mentioned it... two of the girls were horrified.. thought my act outrageous.. yet how long would a vet take to get there, if one would attend?.. and who would pay?
The girls never did come out with a viable alternative. Their own actions in similar circs would have an animal suffer enormously.
2, Whilst driving a panda car as a sergeant, with a probationary PC with me, a cat ran out. I hit the brakes, started to skid.. then let the brakes off and tried to aim the car so the wheels missed it and the cat went under the middle (my only real, safe, humane option). It worked..but...being a Metro, the sump was low and I could hear the cat bouncing along underneath.
Looking in the mirror, it was in the middle of the road, jerking badly so I knew it was bad, they usually run for it, even if well injured. I decided to do a squirrel on it.. but the new PC was horrified.. and insisted on getting out and looking at it first... to my irritance.
Well he did me a big favour, because the owner of the cat was stood less than 6 feet away, in her driveway, bawling her eyes out... she'd come out of her house to go to work, the cat saw her and bolted across the road and the local friendly police ran over her cat.
Could you imagine the hoo-hah if I'd reversed over it in front of her?
The next scene was me wearing her husband's wellies digging a hole in her garden so we could bury it... and I never got that complaint.
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Good man WP.. The voice of sense more often than not.
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>> It's mainly the difference between 'townies' and 'country folk'.
I disagree.
It's mainly the difference between sensible people with their feet on the ground and stupid Facebook people with their heads in the clouds.
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>> I disagree.
>>
>> It's mainly the difference between sensible people with their feet on the ground and stupid
>> Facebook people with their heads in the clouds.
>>
My two examples were well before Facebook and similar.
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WP's post says it all. It may seem cruel but is in the animals best interests and very importantly quick!
The RSPCA and "do gooders" need to know that putting the animal out of its misery is not the same as yobs kicking a kitten to death just for fun. Those that do should have the same done to them imho.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it sickened me to have to put a field mouse down. The alternative would have been for it to starve to death and in lots of pain.
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>> As I mentioned in an earlier post, it sickened me to have to put a field mouse down
Harvest mice are cute little things, but so are ordinary house mice. We don't want them crapping on the breadboard though, do we? That's why we set traps for the little beasts, and they don't always kill quickly.
I'm sorry to say there's some mawkish British sentimentality in this thread. OK if the nippers have a pet mouse in a cage, but wild mice or rats or voles or shrews are our enemies.
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I've been having a good chew on this story.
A dog handler could well be a 40 min drive away, if there's one available at all... and what will he/she do when they get there anyway? Yes they have skills the rest of us do not, but if a healthy fit young dog wants to leg it... it will... and someone with a dog catching pole has to match the dog's speed... all on a busy main road.
Having said that... i'm not convinced I would have made the same decisions that were made.
Warning signs on the road or a Highways Agency or police car.. and wait for the dog to sod off, would be my angle of attack... although second guessing those out there 'doing it' is always difficult.
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If the Police on the scene thought that killing the dog with a car was the way to go, then it ought to be left mostly at that.
It is for their superior to talk about opportunities for improvement if appropriate..
All this media coverage and chest beating is ridiculous. No doubt for from the same people who complain that they are held up by road closures after an accident.
Can you imagine the noise from the Mail if they had closed the road for two hours? Heart-rending stories of parents who couldn't get home, couples separated, revenue lost, increased costs etc. etc.
Never mind the deafening outrage if there'd actually been an accident.
Which of you, not a policeman, would be happy for your work decisions to be judged by the media and a baying mob, none of whom know anything about what you do or the particular circumstances?
>> i'm not convinced I would have made the same decisions that were made.
I'm not convinced that the decisions were actually made at all. Sounds like a bit of revisionist history to me. But I can't say I'm bothered. The potential ramifications were clear, and one way or another they were avoided.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 24 Feb 16 at 20:28
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Splash one bogey.
Safer for humings.
Don't care for dogs - except my daughter's rescued greyhound - in another age and house I could be tempted!
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As I mentioned elsewhere a Police Officer killed himself earlier that day - coverage, next to nothing. A baby was abducted in Shropshire earlier today - no doubt Police were involved in its eventual safe return. We live in an imperfect country/world with a very odd sense of priorities.
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From what I gather that had been attempted WP. This road is busy at that time of the morning with Ferry traffic.
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>> From what I gather that had been attempted WP. This road is busy at that
>> time of the morning with Ferry traffic.
... and just goes to show how difficult it is for armchair warriors to second guess those trying to do difficult jobs.
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>> ... and just goes to show how difficult it is for armchair warriors to second
>> guess those trying to do difficult jobs.
To be fair, none of us on here have been anything of the sort over this case. Sure its pretty drastic action, and it reads as a pretty horrific thing to do, but I guess none of here even remotely think this was a first choice callous action, and was nothing other than an action of last resort.
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It's been referred to the IPCC now, so there will be a detailed report in due course. The owner has publicly supported the action now as well. It was a Trail Terrier (?). The PCC refers to "both Officers" suggesting that there was only one car involved in the incident and that Firearms Officers had refused to take a shot at the dog as it couldn't be done safely.
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>> To be fair, none of us on here have been anything of the sort over
>> this case.
I include myself, now, in that description.
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I wouldn't have forgiven the police for killing one of my two dogs if they'd 'got out', but I don't think it would have happened in Cornwall, as there are often reports of stray animals running about and, the Cornish are 'different'.
Sure I know Wales is similar to Cornwall in that it's a mostly rural area, with one of two sheep here and there.
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>> 'got out', but I don't think it would have happened in Cornwall, as there are
no dual carriageways. Fixed it for you!
>> It's been referred to the IPCC
OMG. It's an animal that was potentially causing a danger to human life.
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>>I don't think it would have happened in Cornwall, as there are no dual carriageways.
Fixed it for you!
Sooooooooon: www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTwwGrEC4qQ
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I haven't been on the A55 for 10 years or more, since my son was at Bangor. Maybe 'they' have taken some measures to slow things down, but on the occasions I used it, it was not a joy.
Ups and downs, some poor sight lines, two lanes each way with slow traffic in one, insane speeds and much dangerous tailgating in the other.
Granted, it was 3 in the morning, but I still wouldn't have given much for the dog's chances had it stayed on the carriageway and it could well have taken a few human casualties with it.
I can understand people feeling sorry for the dog but I really can't understand the lynch mob response.
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Run over a fox once.Didn't like killing it but nothing I could have done.
Picked it up and put it on the grass verge.
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Apparently you really don't want to hit a badger. Solid things it's said. I never have, but I've swerved round a couple of them over the years.
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Good thing about badgers is they don't seem to dart about and change their minds. But neither do they get out of the way. They just plod on in the same direction and at the same speed if the ones I've observed were typical.
Neither do they caper about the carriageway - they are usually crossing (badly).
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They're also advantaged by looking a bit like a Zebra crossing
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 25 Feb 16 at 18:03
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A Zebra on the A55 ! Don't tell the cops !. I drive it twice a day for 3 days a week ( more when the weather gets better). It's not a bad road. Not many roads that you can average 50 or 60ph (it tales me 45 minutes to travel the 35 miles on average) regardless of time of day - despite road works i n the winter. Mostly cruise controlled 65 to 70mph is achievable for most journeys. I have no problems with the road.
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Nor me, I like those sweepy whooshy bits near Llandudno-ish
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>> Apparently you really don't want to hit a badger. Solid things it's said. I never
>> have, but I've swerved round a couple of them over the years.
Very few badgers get hit. Most of the dead ones you see are at the side of the road, complete, but dead. Gassed or poisoned by farmers and dumped on the road.
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I hit a young badger a few years back, no damage the car as only the wheel got it but it didn't half make a thump.
Niece's boyfriend was killed in 2002 when he hit a cow one night.
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The problem with cows, big deer etc, if you hit one it takes their legs out and the body is at windscreen height. I was fortunate very early on a dark winter morning driving through Glen Coe, the stag standing in the middle of the road was facing me and its eyes were effective reflectors.A good brake test!
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>> Very few badgers get hit. Most of the dead ones you see are at the
>> side of the road, complete, but dead. Gassed or poisoned by farmers and dumped on
>> the road.
More likely with a bit of lead in their head and then run over. If poisoned then there's probably not a body; if gassed then the body is too far underground.
Waste of good meat, but never mind.
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>> Apparently you really don't want to hit a badger. Solid things it's said. I never
>> have, but I've swerved round a couple of them over the years.
>>
I hit once a few years back, nearly wrote the car off. It took out the fog lights, bumper, the bumper bar, air con pipes, the rad etc. It was a four figure sum. It dashes out at the last minute from the centre reservation. It was like running over a speed bump at speed, a real jolt felt through the car.
Loads of them around here get run over, quite often see them in the road or at the side.
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BBC Wales news reporting that the IPCC have passed it back to North Wales Police to investigate, with input from the RSPCA and their own Roads Policing unit.
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>> BBC Wales news reporting that the IPCC have passed it back to North Wales Police
>> to investigate, with input from the RSPCA and their own Roads Policing unit.
.....with 'input' from the RSPCA????????
Prosecution do they mean?
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My youngest's partner was a motorway inspector for a few years. He had a jazzed up Astra van and reported potholes, debris and other problems back to base.
An old hand told him if he ever found a dead badger, he was best advised to drag it to the the armco and leave it on the grass verge. Then report it as a large black and white dog as the paperwork for a badger was so over-complicated.
A Manchester Police legend was that an old time bobby attended a dead horse blocking Copperas St in the veg market. He organized some of the porters to drag it into nearby Tib St as it was easier to spell in his report.
I think most forces have stories like that !
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Just performed my own version of euthanasia.
Coming home from the pool I come down a narrow road past the cemetery. There was a pigeon fluttering about in the nearside gutter.
I despatched it with the nearside front wheel of the Vitara.
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It was probably just having a bath Ted !
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>> A Manchester Police legend was that an old time bobby attended a dead horse blocking
>> Copperas St in the veg market. He organized some of the porters to drag it
>> into nearby Tib St as it was easier to spell in his report.
>>
>> I think most forces have stories like that !
>>
The Glasgow version involved Sauchiehall St and Hope St
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>> Apparently you really don't want to hit a badger. Solid things it's said.
As are muntjacs. Hares are solid old beasts too.
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Thank goodness we do have Moose or Kangaroos roaming free :-)
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>> Thank goodness we do have Moose or Kangaroos roaming free :-)
www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/wallaby-caught-camera-living-wild-6365669
We have wild boar in surrey now
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>> We have wild boar in surrey now
And old ones ;)
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>> Thank goodness we do have Moose or Kangaroos roaming free :-)
>>
Too true, kangaroos have suicidal road sense and are at windscreen height at mid bounce. Stood on the ground they can write off a car.
www.arb.com.au/products/protection-equipment/bull-bars-frontal-protection/
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 26 Feb 16 at 13:42
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>> Meanwhile in South Wales two loose dogs on the M4 causes accident.
Makes a change from two whales ;)
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Badgers are indeed solid animals, and they have no road sense at all. There are quite a few round here and they are often seen dead on the road.
Only hit one once as far as I can remember. It bashed in the front valance of the car (Skoda I think).
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Runaway dog on A55 - CGNorwich
