Non-motoring > EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Volume 2   [Read only] Miscellaneous
Thread Author: R.P. Replies: 119

 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Volume 2 - R.P.

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 3 *****

=============================================================


On-going debate about the EU Referendum...
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 27 Feb 16 at 12:37
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - movilogo
Some say leaving EU means influx of retired British pensioners coming back to UK.

But that is a good thing.

As these pensioners have a limited life remaining, it would be a one off event to deal with.

On other hand, keeping gates open means influx of legal + illegal immigrants crowding the island and one day they will become older, then import more migrants to support their pension etc. and this cycle will continue forever.

In reality, I don't think any EU country will term British expats as illegals overnight then we can do the same for EU migrants living here.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - legacylad
Why would retired Brits return to the UK if the UK leaves the EU? I always thought that the majority left to enjoy a more clement climate, be it Spain, France wherever.
At the moment I cannot envisage myself ever living overseas. Travelling a lot definitely, sometimes for extensive periods, but giving up a UK residence never, unless I met a cute northern CA girl with a nice property overlooking Tahoe!
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Old Navy
Oh dear, Michael Fallon (Secretary of State for Defence) seemed to be confused on Sky News this morning. He claimed to be a Euro sceptic, is going to vote in, was unsure of the relationship between Europe, the EU, NATO, and Sovereignty. Worrying for a defence minister, what chance does Joe public voter have?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
>>what chance does Joe public voter have?

None whatsoever. I don't know what to do, and I consider myself quite well informed. I have yet to hear a single "fact" in support of either side. I've heard plenty of scare stories in both directions.

I have a temptation to vote Stay, as I think the status quo must be the safer option. But in the hope that Leave wins just so as to see what happens.

What hope do the people who can barely read English have?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>> >>what chance does Joe public voter have?
>>
>> None whatsoever. I don't know what to do, and I consider myself quite well informed.
>> I have yet to hear a single "fact" in support of either side. I've heard
>> plenty of scare stories in both directions.

It is difficult. As you say, there are no facts. The problem is of course, there can be no facts. The goodness or badness of an exit depends entirely on the reactions and future behaviour of people.

Who will or will not move, change, stop, start, begin, agree, disagree, etc. etc. etc.

I come down to;

1) As someone who has always lived and worked internationally I dislike and disagree with anything which stands in the way of free movement. With the only proviso that you represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to that country, you should be able to live and/or work wherever you wish.

2) International borders, which are after all largely artificial, getting in the way of trade makes no sense to me. Provided only that appropriate taxes are paid and the law is obeyed.

3) I massively prefer, based only on my own perceptions, the type of person and the type of thinking that goes into preferring IN than the person / attitudes / thinking that goes into preferring OUT.

So I will vote IN - if expats are allowed to vote.

[Given that I still have residences and pay some taxes in the UK, I guess I will be able to]
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
You'd better get on the electoral register sharpish, NF. I received our reminders to sign up two weeks ago, I expect there will be a deadline by which you have to be registered.

We need as many people who think like you on this matter to vote as possible.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
I think I am, but it is a good point. I will check.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Dutchie
I could be wrong but many people will vote with their hart.How they feel about Europe and nobody will change their mind.

Which I can understand you are a Island race.A micture of Vikings up North and Frenchies down South.Oversimplistic I know.

I wonder if I can vote lived here for more than fourty years.Still have a Dutch passport but registered in the UK.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R

>> Which I can understand you are a Island race.A micture of Vikings up North and
>> Frenchies down South.Oversimplistic I know.

If the "Frenchies" that you speak of are William and his mates, then they were not French. They were essentially Norman / Norse Men / More b***** Vikings.

And in any case, that was 1,000 years ago. I think all races have mixed in the last 1,000 years. A more interesting consideration is national and cultural identity.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> And in any case, that was 1,000 years ago. I think all races have mixed
>> in the last 1,000 years. A more interesting consideration is national and cultural identity.
>>

Indeed, although recent genetic studies have indicated that the make up of the vast majority of British isles inhabitants are descended from settlers who came here before any of the "modern" invasions (pre-Norman, pre-Viking, pre-Anglo-Saxon, pre-Roman and even pre-Celtic), which have mostly brought cultural and linguistic change rather than genetic change.

We are just a bunch of prehistoric hunter gatherers, which is presumably why there is a chance that OUT might prevail come the referendum. ;-)
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 15:21
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> I could be wrong but many people will vote with their hart.

Which could end up costing you deer.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Dutchie
Maybe it could cost us deer.But the majority of people will be getting over information.

You either think they are a bunch of thugs in Brussels or you don't.That is why nobody can predict this referendum.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
I just don't want to wake up on June 4th and have to do a Homer Simpson. Doe!
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
I got it Al...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPrI8db74kA
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123

>> I wonder if I can vote lived here for more than fourty years.Still have a
>> Dutch passport but registered in the UK.
>>

No i don't think so. Only a handful of non UK citizens can vote, Ireland, malta, Cyprus etc.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
"We need as many people who think like you on this matter to vote as possible."

And there was me thinking the "ins" had it in the bag.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
We will if we all vote. Can't be complacent on this one.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
Expats can vote but they have to have been abroad for less than 15 years.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Thank you.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
No drama. Does that mean you can still vote in the referendum?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>> Does that mean you can still vote in the referendum?

If you were asking me, then yes. I think I've been out 3 years this time. Although I'm not exactly sure what makes one an Expat.

I think I've spent about 2/3 of my time out over the years.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
> If you were asking me, then yes. I think I've been out 3 years this
>> time. Although I'm not exactly sure what makes one an Expat.

I was yes, I think the electoral commission have/will have a definition of an expat for this vote.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
No FM>>3) I massively prefer, based only on my own perceptions, the type of person and the
>>type of thinking that goes into preferring IN than the person / attitudes / thinking that goes
>>into preferring OUT.

I agree. That is the most compelling argument. The problem is that it is an argument that has been formed without the basis of any facts. It's a crowd-sourced answer. So one is left with the basis for what one hopes is an intellectual decision being the rantings of George Galloway and Nigel Farage.

I am bemused by Boris's decision to join them. But then he knows that maybe 75% of Party members are Leavers, and they will be the ones electing the next leader. Quite possibly he hopes that we will Stay, but the members will choose him nonetheless.

Isn't politics fun. It would be if it weren't so serious. But as one has no idea how being In and Out will compare, it is a crazy thing to ask the population to vote on.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - movilogo
>> As someone who has always lived and worked internationally I dislike and disagree with anything which stands in the way of free movement.

What is has to do with being in EU or not? UK businesses have always been able to hire skilled persons (even from outside EU).

What we currently lack is "no control". With few good guys, lots of bad guys are also coming. We need a mechanism to filter only people we prefer them to come.

You won't allow anyone to enter your house - will you? Same goes for the country.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> What we currently lack is "no control". With few good guys, lots of bad guys
>> are also coming. We need a mechanism to filter only people we prefer them to
>> come.

Where does this guff come from? It took me half an hour to get through UK Border control at Heathrow yesterday, and I could see quite a few people getting a good grilling from the officers.
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 15:51
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - movilogo
>> It took me half an hour to get through UK Border control at Heathrow yesterday, and I could see quite a few people getting a good grilling from the officers.

and how many were denied entry because of those grilling? It is customary for some questions to be asked to non-EU passport holders (especially those with work visas).

Also, problematic people seldom enter via Heathrow route!

Also, there is no control over EU passport holders (unless someone is on interpol watch list or similar). Couple of years back BBC Panorama showed how easy to buy some EU passports. Home Office cannot check validity of some EU passports and national ID cards on the spot - so these people have to be let in.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> and how many were denied entry because of those grilling?

How am I supposed to know? I'm just pointing out that your "no control" assertion is rubbish.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Bromptonaut
>> Where does this guff come from? It took me half an hour to get through
>> UK Border control at Heathrow yesterday

Similarly at Calais or Dunkerque ferry port or boarding the Eurotunnel. Passports are scanned by Border Force staff who carefully check them against the occupants of the vehicle. Sure there's a risk from forged passports or 'clean skins' who've acquired citizenship in another EU country.

In reality though terror outrages in this country have involved homegrowns. A disproportionate number of them are nutters and 'converts' to Islam.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee

>> Where does this guff come from? It took me half an hour to get through
>> UK Border control at Heathrow yesterday, and I could see quite a few people getting
>> a good grilling from the officers.


The point is though that they had to let you in:)
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> The point is though that they had to let you in:)
>>

Tee hee. The (brown) lady in question didn't look too happy about it, I've changed a bit since my passport photo was taken. She gave me a few real long, hard looks, didn't seem convinced for a minute. 'S funny, in other countries it's seen as a glamorous job, and only the best looking ladies seem to get posted to one of those little booths (Belgrade airport is always a nice one to go through - many stunners in uniform).
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sherlock47
Just a little bit of wondering? Alcohol and sun induced:

Just suppose Europe was worried about an 'out' win and came back with some better 'offer's' in the time before voting date? Addressing the intellectual content of the Boris views?

Boris then changes his allegiance - makes friends with Cameron, and the way is then clear for him to take future leadership whatever the outcome.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - movilogo
If people vote to remain in EU, the chance of any future negotiation with EU is zero.
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
Unbelievable rubbish.
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
>> If people vote to remain in EU, the chance of any future negotiation with EU
>> is zero.
>>
don't think that's true
any major change always gives the option to stay or leave, have another referendum or whatever.

Do you really believe that the campaigners for OUT are going to accept an IN vote quietly and fade away.

Look at the SNP, contentious issues will stay contentious issues.

FWIW I shall be voting to stay in, the global economy and global society are out and running, that genie cannot be put back in the bottle
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Dutchie
One thing I will say about Cameron.He is a good speaker well educated and no fool.

Speaking now in the house of commons.Don't know about trusting him.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Ambo
>> the rantings of George Galloway and Nigel Farage

Not impressive in themselves (although I enjoy Galloway's rants) but important if they have followings big enough to make a difference to the outcome. Does anyone know roughly how many voters that would be?


       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>I am bemused by Boris's decision to join them.

Me too, I don't know quite what to make of it. It certainly gives one pause for thought.

Like you I wonder if it is tactical. I find it difficult he would actually rather we left Europe. It is possibly a Conservative Party tactic to ensure that they have strong and popular figures whichever side wins.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
I'm confused at the confusion. I'd always had BoJo down as an Outie. It's one of the few things which puts me off the fellow. Same with Jacob Rees-Mogg. Quite like him on the whole, but his whole countenance seems to go dark when discussing matters European/immigration.

I have voted Tory, but always with a slightly held nose.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
I'm not sure he's ever particularly got off the fence, but I;d always had him down as an Innie.

I shall ask and find out.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>>I shall ask and find out.

I am led to believe that Boris's position was that we should remain within the EU with a renegotiated agreement. He also maintained that we would not be able to renegotiate that agreement suitably unless we were absolutely prepared to leave. And that we should leave if we didn't get what we wanted.

His position being now that we didn't get what sufficient change.

However, with such a strong eye on the leadership and the behaviour of the MEPS, if the UK votes substantially to stay in, then he may well have miscalculated. Certainly his Father thinks so.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 16:35
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Zero

>> I agree. That is the most compelling argument. The problem is that it is an
>> argument that has been formed without the basis of any facts. It's a crowd-sourced answer.
>> So one is left with the basis for what one hopes is an intellectual decision
>> being the rantings of George Galloway and Nigel Farage.

Nothing has fixed my ideas to stay more than the people who who say we should leave.

>> I am bemused by Boris's decision to join them. But then he knows that maybe
>> 75% of Party members are Leavers, and they will be the ones electing the next
>> leader. Quite possibly he hopes that we will Stay, but the members will choose him
>> nonetheless.

Boris only Boris in mind, and his actions now are wholly driven by a future leadership bid.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
>> Boris only Boris in mind, and his actions now are wholly driven by a future
>> leadership bid.
>>
he's a politician, why should we expect anything else?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Armel Coussine
>> Boris only Boris in mind, and his actions now are wholly driven by a future
>> leadership bid.


There's an old photo in today's comic of a sweet little blond Boris aged about 4 with his mother.

Charlotte Johnson Wahl is a pretty woman and an original painter. She's a college friend of Herself and a charming individual.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Armel Coussine
>> Charlotte Johnson Wahl is a pretty woman and an original painter.

Her first husband, Boris's English father Stanley Johnson, and her American second husband Nick Wahl, are both fairly tough characters. Not forbidding exactly, but not friendly either.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
Interesting.

1) and 2) are a vote for motherhood and apple pie, both of which all reasonable people are in favour of.

2) can be achieved in or out of the EU, examples abound.

1) is unfortunately not the terms on which the EU operates, so I don't see how that leads you to a 'remain' vote. Certainly if you want to make sure that [immigrants] "represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to [the receiving country]" then you need to vote 'leave'.

I don't know what to make of 3). It isn't necessary to be a racist, xenophobe, Kipper, or a member Britain First to have a 'leave' inclination.

As I've said before, I don't think either path is necessarily wrong - whichever way it goes, much depends on what we make of it.

I think the idea of Britain being semi-detached or having special status is actually worse than being in or out. It sets us against other members. Political union per se doesn't frighten me, it must be the ultimate, ideal aspiration of every reasonable person; but I'm not ready to be ruled by the EU apparatus that does not seem to me to be fit for that purpose; also the EU is too large and disparate to do it at the moment, and I see no 'roadmap' to its being achieved.

It's interesting that 'remain' is seen as lowest risk by so many, and indeed is often presented as the key argument. I don't see it that way - it seems lower risk to me to have more autonomy once the interregnum is past.

There's a lot for UK to deal with now, and in the years to come. Not directly related to the referendum, but I found this morning's Start the Week economics discussion very interesting and it reinforced my instinct that the EU may not be the best context in which to operate.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0713zf1

Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 16:05
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Dutchie
I read a lot of the Dutch press.Don't make a mistake they admire the Brits to make a stand against the E.U.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>>I don't know what to make of 3)

I don't think there's anything to be made of it. It is pretty clear and unambiguous.

"1) is unfortunately not the terms on which the EU operates, so I don't see how that leads you to a 'remain' vote. Certainly if you want to make sure that [immigrants] "represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to [the receiving country]" then you need to vote 'leave'.

Don't be silly. I want to remain but I want there to be different legislation on benefits and the like. Which I think should be Europe wide and the same for nationals or non-nationals. And that would be *exactly* the principle on which the EU operates.

You used the word "immigrant" Not I. I don't see why you would feel the need to differentiate between national lazy scroungers and non-national lazy scroungers. They both need their benefits cut to survival level, not enjoyment level.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee

>> Don't be silly.

What's silly about it? Freedom of movement within the EU is not contingent on the migrant bringing a benefit (or not bringing a disbenefit) to the receiving country.

>>You used the word "immigrant" Not I.

Which is why it wasn't in the quotes. I don't see what is offensive or wrong about the word immigrant. When a person goes from one country to another to live, he is an immigrant when he gets there.

>>I don't see why you would feel the need to differentiate between national lazy scroungers and
>> non-national lazy scroungers.

Where the hell did I say that?

>>They both need their benefits cut to survival level, not enjoyment
>>level.

Is that your method of ensuring that economically disadvantageous migrants are kept out? I'd prefer that the UK be free to decide what benefits different categories of recipients should receive without having to cost in the effect on immigration levels, come to think of it. That is what Cameron asked for (and and did not get).
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>> Which is why it wasn't in the quotes. I don't see what is offensive or
>> wrong about the word immigrant.

Where on earth did I say it was offensive or wrong? I just can't see how it is relevant to my point.

> Is that your method of ensuring that economically disadvantageous migrants are kept out?

Its not related. Its my preferred method for stopping lazy scrounging gits. I already said I didn't want to restrict immigration. I do wish you'd pay attention before spluttering.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
>> >> Which is why it wasn't in the quotes. I don't see what is offensive
>> or
>> >> wrong about the word immigrant.
>>
>> Where on earth did I say it was offensive or wrong?

Why mention it then?

You wrote -

"I come down to;

1) As someone who has always lived and worked internationally I dislike and disagree with anything which stands in the way of free movement. With the only proviso that you represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to that country, you should be able to live and/or work wherever you wish."


which I partly paraphrased, partly quoted as

[immigrants] "represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to [the receiving country]"

>>I already said I didn't want to restrict immigration. I do wish you'd pay attention before spluttering.

No you didn't. You added "With the only proviso that you represent *at worst* financial and social neutrality to that country"

Read what you wrote yourself before you start spluttering, or if you didn't mean it to be reciprocal then write more clearly.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Let me try to say it as simply as I can...

Firstly...

I do not believe immigration should be restricted. I do not like visas, quotas, etc. etc. I believe that people should be able to move freely.

Have you got that clearly? I do not believe immigration should be restricted

If you have managed that, then try this....

I believe that there should be Europe wide policies/practices/laws which prevent people being lazy scrounging gits, that they should receive benefits at survival level not an enjoyment level, and that should apply whether they are in their own country or another. It is not a mater for which nationality is important. And that is *exactly* how the EU is [supposed to] work

How are we doing?

At least if you must splutter do it about something I actually said.


If you still haven't got it, then suck it up.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Pat
Typical, if all else fails....patronise:)

Pat
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Pat, you'd be better off to stay out of the grown up subjects if all you can do is whine at me.

8-)
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Pat
...and if being patronising once fails then do it twice, that's bound to succeed!!

Pat
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Succeed at what?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
You deny your proviso then.

>>If you still haven't got it, then suck it up.

Same to you, with knobs on.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>You deny your proviso then.

No, I don't.

>>Same to you, with knobs on.

Yah boo sucks, with little bells and balloons. And If I could write a raspberry then I would.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
Extra knobs.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Shiny bells, brightly coloured balloons.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
OK I give in. Out of knobs.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
I think you'll find some more here....

www.ukip.org/
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 17:33
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
Not handling those.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Fair point.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Westpig
Quiet a lot of discussion on the radio today re this (R2 & BBC Radio Devon).

I've assumed that my increasing likelihood for voting 'Out' would be in a large minority e.g. 40/60 or 45/55 or something along those lines.. however.. on Radio Devon there was a substantial amount of 'outs' who contacted the station by the various modern means, a couple of 'don't knows' and very few 'ins'.

O.K. not all that scientific and it's a 'true blue' part of the world... but nevertheless it surprised me... and the presenter.

So, have the polls got it wrong again?

Have the 'ins' tried the 'I know best' line and alleged moral, intellectual high ground and managed to 'p' off the rest?

Oh and I find it a shame that I can't better inform myself of the subject matter, on what is an important vote, without some doing the look down the nose patronising bit and labelling the alternative view to them as 'silly' or similar....who the **** do they think they are?
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>>I can't better inform myself of the subject matter,

It is really hard to do on this one and quite clearly what follows is my opinion and quite possibly wrong.

Whatever the decision it is unlikely to be a clear disaster or benefit in the short term. It is much more likely to be about a direction of travel from individuals, companies and states over a considerable period of time.

Consequently it is impossible to say with any certainty that one thing or another will happen, or that one will be better than the other. Anybody who says that one course of action will be a disaster or a benefit is merely guessing. All you can do is judge the person and try to work out how much credibility their guess deserves.

Obviously there are a lot of people who feel emotionally about it. Who feel that somehow it is better to have control over your own destiny beyond anything else. Nationalism has its place, but not to the exclusion of all else.

I prefer that a good decision is made, ultimately I don't really care who makes it. OK, it can be galling to feel that you are being told what to do by Brussels, but if Brussels is right, then does that really matter to you?

Business decisions are made over years; companies will gradually lean towards a course of action which seems to work for them. That's why they don't like change. It might seem like they make decisions, but they don't really - or at least not often. Companies have policies - we like Europe, we like free markets, we like regulation, etc., etc or indeed the complete opposite. And then "decisions" are made in line with their preferences.

So no company is going to make a decision because the UK stayed in the EU or because it left. What it will do is influence them over a period of time.

Consequently, whatever the Daily Mail will try to convince its lookers, no company is going to make any major decision in anything like the short term whatever this decision turns out to be.

Its pretty much the same for people. People will not decide to come to the UK, leave the UK, or any possible combination depending on this vote.

In truth, it will be a short term non-event, although God knows the media will try to convince you otherwise.

If you look at our membership of the EU, and much trumpeted it was at the time, nothing happened in the short term. not much in the medium term for that matter. What happened is that over 10 years, perhaps 15, was that the direction of travel leant towards more involvement in Europe. It lowered the importance of some factors and increased the relevance of some others.

Honestly, it may well be that there will never be a particular advantage of being in or out of the EU. It may well simply be a matter of style.

One position or the other will perhaps encourage one behaviour or the other. It is possible that you should vote for the one you fancy, bit like the colour of your front door.

Do you like the idea of gradually less significant national and political borders, increased openness and freedom, but probably less marked differences and delineation? Or do you prefer strong and dramatic "thou shall not cross" national, political and cultural boundaries?

Because whatever the outcome, companies will continue to address all markets, utilise all labour, and sell to and base themselves within whichever country they can make money in. No major company will fail or lose money over this. They just might have to make some changes, which they don't like. Corporations have 25 year business plans. Things changing within 12 months worry them.

Small companies will suffer, but they too will change. Some will go bust and die, but others more suited to the future environment will appear.

People will still travel and live wherever they want to go, although it will just be a bit harder if we're out. But that will only affect a tiny minority.

What I do think is important is a question of relevance. And there I think the EU does matter.

What will continue to ensure the UK holds the greatest relevance, and therefore value, in the world?

Technology, education, ease of business, readily available and accessible market, sound economy, excellent workforce, reliable working practices, safety and security, skillsets, openness, wealth, political participation, global involvement, etc. etc.

And of course so many more subjects.

For me, the EU is a stepping stone to something else. Something that will come after it. But I think its important to be involved now so that we are ready for whatever it evolves into.

I understand the lure of nationalism. believe me, nothing makes you more mouthy about your Britishness and the greatness of the UK like living elsewhere. I understand the desire for strong borders, and the need to look after one's own.

But, for me, those days are passing. We can better ensure the relevance of the UK by participating, by being involved and if possible by leading, greater integration.

Where I differ is that I think we should not follow blindly. And over the last few years we have followed blindly because it was pushed from Brussels. That needs to stop. WE need to have balls, we need to fight our corner, and we need to be a strength.

That needs to come from the electorate. We will see if it ever does.

So, Westpig, for whatever it is worth, ultimately I think you have to make an emotional decision and choose the environment you prefer to be part of.

But, for me, provided that we walk in with the strength and determination, I am quite sure that greater involvement is the way forward.

Please note, greater involvement does not involve capitulation or emasculation.
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Westpig
>> Please note, greater involvement does not involve capitulation or emasculation.

If that were the case or I could be convinced it would be so in the future, I'd consider voting 'in'.... i'm not daft, I can see many of the 'in' pluses.

Take as a small example, one of the points the PM raised at his recent visit to Brussels. He and his govt felt that paying child allowance to people's from elsewhere whose children are not in this country was a 'no-no'.

Instead of us just changing our law and saying to such people 'no child here = no child benefit', we have to ask the EU if we can change things to allow us to do it???

If that isn't emasculation, what is?... then multiply it for all the other issues out there...another e.g. getting rid of foreign born criminals... why can't we just say 'cheerio'?.. backed up by a law that we've created?

By the way, thank you for the extensive and thorough reply.
Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 20:12
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>>He and his govt felt that paying child allowance to people's from elsewhere whose children are not in this country was a 'no-no'.

As it happens, I agree that child support should be paid in the country where the children actually are.

But yes, we have to ask the EU and the reason is simple. We, the UK, stated and agreed that all relevant laws should be applied equally to all people over all member States. Nobody beat us into that, or held a gun to our heads, that is what WE stated that WE wanted.

That leads us into the principle that essentially you must treat all EU nationals in the same way that you treat your own nationals. Unavoidably.

If we don't like that, then we have the opportunity to walk away from it, but we will then walk away from the rest of the EU as well, be that good or bad.

I can understand why you might not like it, although it doesn't bother me, but its not emasculation. It is something that WE said WE wanted. And WE can say no. - hence the referendum.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Westpig
>> I can understand why you might not like it, although it doesn't bother me, but
>> its not emasculation.

Of course it is, we can no longer do what we used to be able to, we have to ask somewhere else.

>> It is something that WE said WE wanted. And WE can say
>> no. - hence the referendum.
>>
Yes... because a significant chunk of the population are uncomfortable with our previous leaders having signed that much away.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
Emasculation would surely when something was taken from you, not when it was given away?

In any case, its one of the difficulties of controlling human behaviour with the law.

It seems reasonable to say that everybody in [Europe*] should be treated equally. Given that, then the initial statement of all laws should be identical also seems a reasonable start.

Then the escalation to all law changes to a certain set of laws should be approved centrally also seems reasonable.

Where it goes wrong, for me, is not that we have to ask but that a bunch of unrealistic, idealist other world idiots then get to make the decision.

We should be quicker to a stronger stand point. We should play hard ball more often, should indulge in more brinkmanship, and generally should be a great deal harder to manage than we are.

This debate and referendum may bring that.

You said in your previous note something like "If I believed or could be convinced that in the future...."

That is a *very* valid and important point.

I think we were walking placidly to the slaughter, perhaps now we are not....


"Do we think that this referendum, the new found levels of attention from the electorate, and the precedence set by this current renegotiation will bring a new era where we are not so blindly subservient and are more prepared to fight for what is right for us?

Do we believe that we want to be part of the EU, but are determined to make it a place that is valuable to us, albeit accepting that we must compromise at times?"


That may well be as good a criteria for your voting decision as any.




*The world, really.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
I've assumed that my increasing likelihood for voting 'Out' would be in a large minority e.g. 40/60 or 45/55 or something along those lines.. however.. on Radio Devon there was a substantial amount of 'outs' who contacted the station by the various modern means, a couple of 'don't knows' and very few 'ins'.
>>
>> O.K. not all that scientific and it's a 'true blue' part of the world... but
>> nevertheless it surprised me... and the presenter.
>>
>> So, have the polls got it wrong again?

i think that's normal on a phone in show for a couple of reasons. It makes more interesting (in as much as radio phone ins can be ) to the viewer/listener in that those arguing against the status quo tend to make better programmes.
Again those against are more likely to be active in terms of making their voices heard. A good example of this is the Scottish referendum. Many of those who wanted independence were convinced they had a majority, based at least in part, by the activity in the media. The silent majority are just that, they aren't trying to ring in, trying to convince people online etc.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
>> Oh and I find it a shame that I can't better inform myself of the
>> subject matter, on what is an important vote, without some doing the look down the
>> nose patronising bit and labelling the alternative view to them as 'silly' or similar....who the
>> **** do they think they are?

Agreed.

In the same category as saying they won't (and by implication you shouldn't) vote in agreement with somebody they have taken a dislike to. George Galloway is a devious creep but the fact that he is an outie won't stop me voting that way if I want to.

And it does Cameron no credit publicly to tell BoJo not to 'link arms with Nigel Farage and George Galloway'.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123

>> And it does Cameron no credit publicly to tell BoJo not to 'link arms with
>> Nigel Farage and George Galloway'.
>>

It'll probably work with some, he wouldn't have done it otherwise.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
If one holds a definite position then however much it grates I would assume that one would vote the way one believes.

However, if someone is truly on the fence, marginal or really doesn't know then the personalities must make a difference. Either wise these politicians wouldn't waste so much time on image. If their image can influence the vote one way, then it must surely be capable of pushing it the other.

That's why i used to buy dog food from Clement Freud and hell and high water wouldn't get me into Brentford Nylons.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - MD
Some good debate here tonight WP and Mark.

The Brentford quip had me chuckling..o:-)
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> That's why i used to buy dog food from Clement Freud and hell and high
>> water wouldn't get me into Brentford Nylons.
>>

Hell and high water wouldn't get me into Brentford.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - idle_chatterer
>>
>> So I will vote IN - if expats are allowed to vote.
>>
>> [Given that I still have residences and pay some taxes in the UK, I guess
>> I will be able to]
>>

FM2R, summed up my sentiments entirely.

Taking a short term and personal view the GBP exchange rate plummeting has made me change my plans, I think this is only a flavour of the turmoil which might follow Brexit. A selfish view perhaps but it might take 10s of years for a new 'fair valuation' of UK-inc in the world - assuming of course that UK isn't just England and a resentful Wales by then. How much of GB's 'value' is as a bridge between the New World and Europe ? I can't see this being preserved intact in the event of Brexit and the value to the US (or China) will be near zero, in fact other countries (inward investors) must be looking at contingency plans already, companies certainly are.

I absolutely agree that the ability to live and work wherever you wish is desirable and admit it is also my preference to live and work internationally, I have no intention of settling anywhere until I have to yet I see myself as a net contributor to the economy in which I live. But so many people who have the opportunity (in every nation) don't even move from their town of birth let alone their country of birth or indeed travel outside a touristic comfort zone. Will it be their perspective which prevails ?

Separately, seeing the retired expats forced to return from their holiday villas might offer some schadenfreude. But that is not a positive sentiment.

I guess I'm alright jack, I pay UK taxes despite living overseas, I don't resent this as I have not renounced my past, I just realised the world is a lot bigger and the UK's place in it depends on being outward looking. Brexit seems (to me) to be very inward looking and unhealthy.

      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
> Separately, seeing the retired expats forced to return from their holiday villas might offer some
>> schadenfreude. But that is not a positive sentiment.

Some might return but i don't think there will be people returning on mass. As to forced why do you think they will be forced out.?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - fluffy
I would make it illegal for UK citizens to buy abroad. Its not fair that a booming housing market gives UK citizens the equity against their home to give them the money to buy abroad.

If I had my way stamp duty would be above 50% for any house worth more than a million.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
"Only 36 of the biggest 100 companies in the UK have signed a letter, published in the Times, backing David Cameron’s position that the UK should stay inside the European Union." (Independent, 23rd Feb.)

What do the 64 absentees know that we don't?

Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Morrisons, Lloyds, Barclays, Legal and General, Whitbread, Persimmon, Land Securities, Sky, L&G, RBS, Severn Trent, EY and Aberdeen Asset Management are among the refuseniks.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Tue 23 Feb 16 at 11:22
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> What do the 64 absentees know that we don't?

They "know" that it might be better to appear neutral so as not to annoy about half of their customers. (Actually, they don't "know" anything of the sort, it's just their opinion, based on their subjective judgement about their own business, verging on the risk averse side.)

A bit like sponsoring Rangers or Celtic - you can't do one without doing the other.

Nobody can read anything in to their silence. Anyone trying to claim it as some kind of statement for "Leave" is delusional and trying to mislead.

You weren't doing that, were you?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
"Anyone trying to claim it as some kind of statement for "Leave" is delusional and trying to mislead.

You weren't doing that, were you?"

Well, you'll note I wasn't claiming anything, nor trying to mislead anyone.

However, refusing to endorse the IN position is, by its very definition, hardly a vote of confidence for staying in the EU.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> However, refusing to endorse the IN position is, by its very definition, hardly a vote
>> of confidence for staying in the EU.
>>

And your implication in that statement is that it is an indication of support for "Leave". Which it absolutely is not.

The businesses in question may very well be firmly in favour of "Remain", but don't wish to say so in order not to upset their "Outie" customers.

Nothing can be read into their silence, and your posts are implying that it can. It appears an attempt at misdirection, in my humble.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
'And your implication in that statement is that it is an indication of support for "Leave".'

'Nothing can be read into their silence, and your posts are implying that it can. It appears an attempt at misdirection...'

You seem to be determined to create an argument with me.

All I have done is to point out that certain big businesses have, for whatever reason, declined to make a declaration of support for staying in the EU. Presumably they know this will be reported in the media and that people will draw conclusions - possibly misguided ones - from that.

I'm not saying this is some kind of endorsement for the OUT campaign.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
It would be quite understandable if boards/CEOs simply chose not to make public statements about it, or to put their names to a round robin that includes statements that they may not wholly agree with.

My starting point would be to be apolitical I think. And it's unwise to say anything if you don't want to be misrepresented.

A couple of weeks ago I posted that one CEO was quoted as saying

"We're still in a wait and see mode, but if you ask any business person they would say 'better the devil you know' and let's not run the risk of the unknown".

Fairly open minded you might think, with a leaning to caution. Yet the opening paragraph of that article said

The chief executive of the company behind Currys PC World and Carphone Warehouse has thrown his support behind Britain remaining part of the European Union...

As it happens, Seb James has since put his name to the round robin, so it seems he has made his mind up - but I don't think the Indy's summary three weeks ago was accurate.


       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Robin O'Reliant
I'm not sure I'd let the opinions of "Big Business" influence my own. For one they are quite happy to have a ready supply of cheap labour pouring across the channel.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
Perhaps if you are employed by one of them it might focus your thoughts a little.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
>> Perhaps if you are employed by one of them it might focus your thoughts a
>> little.

In either direction of course. For the less skilled in particular, the practically unlimited supply of cheap labour from much poorer EU countries must be keeping wages down as well as reducing job opportunities.

A higher minimum wage is a good thing, but will also serve to attract more labour from countries where £9 an hour is 3 or 4 x the average wage.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Zero
>> I'm not sure I'd let the opinions of "Big Business" influence my own. For one
>> they are quite happy to have a ready supply of cheap labour pouring across the
>> channel.

"Big Business" is vital for your pensions and welfare, so I'd consider their views if I were you because its you that will get screwed if they are right. And they know more about business than you do. And Boris. who only knowns about Boris.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> And Boris. who only knowns about Boris.

And he doesn't even know much about that, seeing as he can't even get his own name right. Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Armel Coussine
>> can't even get his own name right. Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson.

That's his real name.

Boris is a pretty smart cat. Got social graces too. And knows how to play both things down.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Westpig
>> And he doesn't even know much about that, seeing as he can't even get his
>> own name right. Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson.
>>
He is called Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. What does it matter if he uses Boris rather than Alexander?

I know several people who have done that.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
I'm very surprised at the reluctance of 'Big Businesses' to put their names to the letter. It does seem very strange. If the Board has no view on whether their business would be better in or out then what does it say for their ability to run their own company.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee

>> "Big Business" is vital for your pensions and welfare, so I'd consider their views if
>> I were you because its you that will get screwed if they are right. And
>> they know more about business than you do. And Boris. who only knowns about Boris.

It's not that simple, though is it.

Sure, business needs to succeed to be capable of providing job security and high wages, but that is not its purpose, which is to provide the best return on capital. Wages are an expense.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Zero

>> It's not that simple, though is it.
>>
>> Sure, business needs to succeed to be capable of providing job security and high wages,
>> but that is not its purpose, which is to provide the best return on capital.
>> Wages are an expense.

Yes it is that simple, they need to return the best return on capital, but for whom? The shareholders. Who are shareholders? pension providers.

So I'd say we have a versed interest in listening to them.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
The FT has attempted to deconstruct the "failure to sign" by notable big business.

"Tesco and Sainsbury, for example, appear to not be speaking out for fear of alienating customers or staff. Sainsbury is unusually sensitive on the issue because of the close involvement of one of its shareholders, David Sainsbury, in funding the Remain campaign.

Such sensitivity seems misplaced. Rather than rhetoric from politicians and campaigners, the public is crying out for real information from employers. A company has three choices of what to say: that it believes a Brexit would be negative for business, jobs or investment, or that it would be positive, or that it would have no impact.

To expect others to make the case one way or another is irresponsible. The idea that a measured argument on any side of the debate would put customers off buying their pint of milk or tin of baked beans in their local shop is treating them as children, not as voting adults."

Makes sense to me.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - No FM2R
>>Makes sense to me.

Well, not really.

Unless a company feels that its own statement will make some difference to the result, then its difficult to see any advantage to making a statement beyond the ego of the CEO.

Then they have to consider which result they would prefer - and there may be differences within that; what is best for them, what is best for the UK, what is best for the EU, what is best for their customers, may all be different.

Further there is the fact that most of these companies are all across Europe and they may feel that a change for the UK will be balanced by an opposite change elsewhere.

We don't know what the company strategy is, and whether or not EU changes will support, hinder or provide excuses for that

Still there is the doubt over what impact, if any, it will actually have.

And in the midst of that is the difficulty of actually knowing what impact the political environment will have.

All in all, was I in charge, no statement would be my strategy with a mild preference for no change and a whole lot of preparation to make sure I could take advantage of possible change - and there will be some advantages.

Again, there is not likely to be anything short term dramatic or significant.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
I'd agree we have an interest in it. All I'm saying is it cuts both ways. For some businesses, a supply of cheap and flexible labour is a key requirement and that may not be in the interests of its workers. For those who work in the care industry, catering and office cleaning for example, there is zero chance of their jobs being exported but every chance that their wages and conditions will be kept at minimum indefinitely by EU membership.

As it happens my retirement income is very dependent on investment returns so maybe I should be an innie. But many people have no pensions at all, except the state, or have defined benefits. Not everybody is a capitalist.

I've a very clear view of capital vs. labour. Left to its own devices, unfettered capitalism will keep all unskilled labour at survival level unless demand exceeds supply. That's how it works as I understand it. It's not good, or bad, it just is. An employer who overpays will go bust, in many cases.

Labour (workers, not the party) has in many ways gone backwards in the last few decades. A nice example I heard the other day is car washes - in the 70s or 80s that almost always meant a machine. Now it's often half a dozen blokes with rags - not something we should have expected.

One of the challenges of the future is that technological advances will put the skilled and unskilled alike out of work in ever increasing numbers. That will hit the less well off in high wage economies (wealthier countries) hardest. Will Britian be better off in the same boat as France, Germany and Italy or will greater autonomy for the UK make that easier to deal with? I don't know...
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 23 Feb 16 at 13:55
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
So it's not just me. A pity one can't just abstain.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12170102/Both-sides-in-the-EU-referendum-are-alienating-me-with-their-relentless-petty-nonsense.html
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
There's one thing about this referendum that I deeply resent. The assumption that a change had to be negotiated in Britain's relationship with Europe. I didn't think much was wrong with the situation to be frank, and I expect there are many who think the same, despite the hysterical blarings of the right wing media and UKIP.

Perhaps we should have had a two stage referendum, first with 3 options - 1) Remain as is; 2) Remain with Dave's New and Improved Added Wonder Changes; 3) Leave. Option with lowest votes in round one gets knocked out, then a deciding round. We could take a bit more time, it's not exactly an emergency.

Not that I think we even need a referendum in the first place, but the Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph and the shrill, nauseating, single-MP'd UKIP had to be placated, didn't they? Sigh.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 23 Feb 16 at 14:15
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Manatee
The sad part of it is that for every person who is trying to fathom the facts and guess the comparative outcomes, there are at least two who won't get past emotion, unquestioned long-held beliefs, or personalities.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
>>Option with lowest votes in round one gets knocked out,

I believe we did that; it was called the "General Election". ;)
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Robin O'Reliant
>>>> Not that I think we even need a referendum in the first place, but the
>> Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph and the shrill, nauseating, single-MP'd UKIP had to be placated, didn't they? Sigh.
>>

Why do the left feel the need to dismiss people who holds a different opinion to them as some sort of deranged lunatics? We all see the same situation but we hold different views as to how best we can manage it.
      2  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
We are having a referendum, as I understand it, so that there is a democratic view of whether we stay in the EU or leave with everyone possible having a chance to state their preference.

However, I do not believe for 1 second that the "losing" side, whichever it is, will leave the matter there afterwards.

       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> However, I do not believe for 1 second that the "losing" side, whichever it is,
>> will leave the matter there afterwards.

This is an interesting question, cd. Do you foresee a sustained "Back In" campaign immediately after the referendum if we leave? Me neither. I expect we all know that if we stay in though, that the "Outs" will behave just as the SNP have done and not let go.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
>> This is an interesting question, cd. Do you foresee a sustained "Back In" campaign immediately
>> after the referendum if we leave? Me neither. I expect we all know that if
>> we stay in though, that the "Outs" will behave just as the SNP have done
>> and not let go.
>>
Pretty much
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Zero
>> We are having a referendum, as I understand it, so that there is a democratic
>> view of whether we stay in the EU or leave with everyone possible having a
>> chance to state their preference.

No we are not. We are having a referendum because it was the only way to placate the loony right of the Tory Party and prevent the party from splintering into rebellious factions in power. Again.

Corbyn is right, its an internal fight thats involved all of us.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
>> No we are not. We are having a referendum because it was the only way
>> to placate the loony right of the Tory Party and prevent the party from splintering
>> into rebellious factions in power. Again.
>>
>> Corbyn is right, its an internal fight thats involved all of us.
>>
So Farage, Galloway et al are part of the Tory party, it has always been a wider issue than the Tory party, I think you will see politicians from other parties on both sides in the next few months. The Tories are the most openly split though.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
>> Why do the left feel the need to dismiss people who holds a different opinion
>> to them as some sort of deranged lunatics?

1) I'm not the left. Once again, for the avoidance of doubt, I have never voted Labour, but have voted Tory a few times, although mostly voted LibDem.

2) Lunatics? How about "Looney Left"? Good choice of word to show how it cuts both ways. The Express/Mail/Telegraph/UKIP - I'm quite happy to brand "Looney".

Anyway, I'm not bashing the "Looney Right". I'm bashing the "Looney Outs". This referendum is clearly not a right/left issue - the late Tony Benn would have been firmly with "Out". George Galloway is "Out". If you agree with those two, are you a Looney Leftie?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
> Not that I think we even need a referendum in the first place, but the
>> Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph and the shrill, nauseating, single-MP'd UKIP had to be placated, didn't they? Sigh.
>>

Those wanting to leave the EU are much wider than you suggest. Polls*
show roughly a 50/50 split.
*In as much as anyone wants to believe them.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbv12aoWwAEOmgR.png
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
Polls in the Express/Mail/Telegraph/Breitbart, no doubt.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
>> Polls in the Express/Mail/Telegraph/Breitbart, no doubt.
>>


You really think that or are you hoping?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Alanovich
Just a wild stab in the dark.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - sooty123
>> Just a wild stab in the dark.
>>

Interesting, assume for a moment that they are correct and representative, I take it you're genuinely surprised the numbers are so close?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 23 Feb 16 at 15:58
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Mapmaker
Opinion polls have been showing, fairly consistently, for months:

40% "in" : 40% "out" : 20% "don't know"


Scotland is quite interesting in that (this poll at least) showed that those in favour of Scottish independence were more likely to be in favour of leaving the EU.

survation.com/a-tale-of-two-referendums-fear-of-leaving-eu-has-little-effect-on-pro-independence-scots-2/

Difficult beggars, clearly.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Focal Point
"Scotland is quite interesting in that (this poll at least) showed that those in favour of Scottish independence were more likely to be in favour of leaving the EU."

Food for thought for that odious Sturgeon woman.
      1  
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - Westpig
>> Not that I think we even need a referendum in the first place, but the
>> Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph and the shrill, nauseating, single-MP'd UKIP had to be placated, didn't they? Sigh.
>>
So you don't think there should have been a referendum... because a few right leaning newspapers have stirred it up a bit and without that there wouldn't have been a need????

What about the millions of people who have a lot of doubt about the EU... who don't like the fact that the books haven't been signed off for decades because of corruption; who don't like the fact that the UK parliament system can no longer have full control of UK decision making; who don't like the acres of waste; who don't like unthinking petty little rules; who don't like quite so much of our money sinking into that bottomless pit....

..or don't we matter? We don't think like you, so we don't count?
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - commerdriver
>> Labour (workers, not the party) has in many ways gone backwards in the last few
>> decades. A nice example I heard the other day is car washes - in the
>> 70s or 80s that almost always meant a machine. Now it's often half a dozen
>> blokes with rags - not something we should have expected.
>>
"The blokes with rags" are cheaper than a machine and better than a machine (they don't miss bits and don't involve a capital investment). They also in many cases have chosen where they are setup and who works there for themselves.

>> One of the challenges of the future is that technological advances will put the skilled
>> and unskilled alike out of work in ever increasing numbers. That will hit the less
>> well off in high wage economies (wealthier countries) hardest. Will Britian be better off in
>> the same boat as France, Germany and Italy or will greater autonomy for the UK
>> make that easier to deal with? I don't know...
>>

See your previous paragraph, not in every case. In general, as the world moves on labour moves on, if your skills are replaced "by a machine" you need new skills or a different outlook or you need to move somewhere that still wants your skills.

That is not a political view it's the reality of the changing world we live in and shutting ourselves away is not going to change that. Many of us have been affected by that and many of us have children who will be affected by that. I have spent 39 years working for one company, I do not expect any of my grown up children to do that, those days have gone to a very large extent.
       
 EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 2. - fluffy
Our credit rating would go too junk status.

Our economy is too reliant on housing and financial services.
       
Latest Forum Posts