www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35575861
"So it is very, very dangerous indeed but unfortunately there's a game that some so-called aircraft spotters play called laser tagging where they try and shine their beam onto the fuselage of the aircraft."
|
Idiots who have nothing better to do than causing problems for pilots.
Set a example if found quilty,lock them up for a year or two.
|
|
I don't doubt there is an issue here but I read a report on this stuff a while back and I would have thought that a cheapo laser thing would be extremely hard to focus anywhere on a moving jet, especially one thousands of feet away and moving quiet quickly. Also do people have good enough eyesight that they can see the dot of a laser at that distance?
|
>> I would have thought that a cheapo laser thing would be extremely hard to focus anywhere on a moving jet,
You're right. I've got a cheapy one that I bought years ago from a market stall in Swindon. One of those with a handful of different screw on filters to create animal patterns on walls and the like, or just use it on it's own as a notice board indicator. It can quite easily light up a road sign over ½ mile away, but trying to keep it targeted on said road sign was near on impossible. All I managed to do when I was messing about with it was to briefly get the sign to light up.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 10:14
|
>> I don't doubt there is an issue here but I read a report on this
>> stuff a while back and I would have thought that a cheapo laser thing would
>> be extremely hard to focus anywhere on a moving jet, especially one thousands of feet
>> away and moving quiet quickly. Also do people have good enough eyesight that they can
>> see the dot of a laser at that distance?
>>
On a slightly hazy night you can see the beam of the laser, so you can target it easily.
|
From the Guardian: "Balpa’s general secretary, Jim McAuslan, said: “This is not an isolated incident. Aircraft are attacked with lasers at an alarming rate and with lasers with ever-increasing strength.'
"Between 2009 and June 2015 more than 8,998 laser incidents across the country were reported to the UK Civil Aviation Authority.
"Heathrow topped the list for the number of laser incidents in the first six months of last year with 48, followed by Birmingham with 32, Leeds Bradford with 24 and Manchester with 23.
"In November 2015, it was reported that the eye of a British Airways pilot was damaged by a military-strength laser that had been shone into the cockpit of his aircraft earlier in the year."
Worrying.
Echoing other posts below, the article continues: "[McAuslan] added: 'We repeat our call to the government to classify lasers as offensive weapons which would give the police more power to arrest people for possessing them if they had no good reason to have them.'"
Last edited by: Focal Point on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 11:40
|
A quick Google reveals that you can readily buy far more powerful lasers online.
|
>> A quick Google reveals that you can readily buy far more powerful lasers online.
>>
You can indeed. The market stall ones are pretty low powered and have poor optical properties, the beam being heavily scattered at distance and unlikely to upset anyones eyes over a hundred feet. One of those will not have caused the turning back of a plane
For 25 quid I can buy one much more powerful with a very focused beam at distance, one that certainly cause temporary hot spots in the eye at distance.
As mentioned over hundreds of feet manually targeting and locking onto a moving object with one of these is damn near impossible. It will have been a passing "paint"
|
|
What is the legitimate use for powerful lasers that justifies them being available to the general public without the kind of licensing and control applied to firearms?
|
A little story .....
About 4 or 5 years ago we were out in Bulgaria and my 14 year old son bought one of these laser pens. Actually very effective and "could see for miles".
A few weeks after we came home , my friend asked us if we wanted to go down to his boat for an overnight - it is moored at the top of Gare Loch - just along from Faslane.
So as night falls, my mate is explaining various things like how to tell if a boat is coming towards you or away from you in the dark due to the sequence of lights. He also tells us how the surrounding hills are allegedly used for storing munitions and quite often used for military exercises.
At which point, unknown to us, son decides he would see how far up these hills he could point his laser pen. This coincided with my mate saying "mind I was saying about the boats sequence of lights - well that military police boat is coming towards us". My son panicked and wanted to throw the pen overboard but I told him to keep hold of it and just hand it over sheepishly if they came up to the boat. However the police launch turned back about 25 metres away from our boat. So whether they had seen it or not I don't know, but think my son had to change his shorts afterwards!
|
>> What is the legitimate use for powerful lasers that justifies them being available to the
>> general public without the kind of licensing and control applied to firearms?
Well, as yet, no-one has been killed by a laser, there are none
|
TV news media reporting the incident at Heathrow yesterday where a Virgin aircraft was targeted by a moron using a laser pen in an attempt to blind the pilots.
I do not condone this behaviour, but I have some issues with this and wondered if anyone has had the same questions and looked at the validity of such offences.
In my opinion the only way a laser could be directly shone into the cockpit of this kind of aircraft, is for the offender to be either level with the cockpit or slightly above that level to be able to see their target. The plane would have to be horizontal on the ground and almost stationary.
This incident involved an aircraft climbing at an angle of between 15 and 25 degrees at a take off speed between 150 and 180 mph. At what point in flight was the aircraft targeted, seeing as the plane must of been a couple of hundred feet above the ground at least.
Taking this departing aircraft into account, it's height, speed and angle of climb, how was someone on the ground able to point a laser into the cockpit and the eyes of a pilot. I would suggest the beam would hit the underside of the aircraft at most. A laser beam is dead straight. It would have to bend at some point in through the cockpit glass if this case is true.
I am not calling the crew liars, I just would like an explanation as to how this would happen with the conditions outlined above. It appears improbable. Can anyone analyse this scenario and see where I may be wrong for questioning this scenario. Notwithstanding all the other in air laser incidents with aircraft cockpits in flight.
And if it's such a problem for operators and crews, why don't they fit mirrored cockpit glass or issue pilots with some kind of eye protection.
|
I was thinking the same and wondering if it maybe reflected off something?
FF would be the man to tell us.
|
>> This incident involved an aircraft climbing at an angle of between 15 and 25 degrees
>> at a take off speed between 150 and 180 mph. At what point in flight
>> was the aircraft targeted, seeing as the plane must of been a couple of hundred
>> feet above the ground at least.
If the pilots can see the ground a laser can see them.
Reports suggest the aircraft was 'hit' at around eight thousand feet. At that point it would have been following a Standard Instrument Departure, probably via Woodley towards Compton (Berks), and being controlled by ATC. Instructions from ATC would include both headings to steer/waypoints to go to and being climbed to co-ordinate with other traffic. Under those circs, even when climbing, it wouldn't be nose up in the way it is immediately off the runway.
As Z says, more likely a 'paint' than a precision targeting the specific aircraft.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 13:13
|
|
A map in the Wail suggests the laser came from area of Zero land.:-)
|
>> A map in the Wail suggests the laser came from area of Zero land.:-)
Right, a flight heading west hit the front of the cockpit from the south east?
|
>> I do not condone this behaviour, but I have some issues with this and wondered
>> if anyone has had the same questions and looked at the validity of such offences.
It's been tested in court - 3 jailed for it in 2014:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-27055841
|
>
>> I am not calling the crew liars, I just would like an explanation as to
>> how this would happen with the conditions outlined above. It appears improbable. Can anyone analyse
>> this scenario and see where I may be wrong for questioning this scenario. Notwithstanding all
>> the other in air laser incidents with aircraft cockpits in flight.
There is no way a crew would turn back an airliner full of pax for a landing at Heathrow just for the hell of it. Clearly the pilot suffered eye problems significant enough for a turn around.
|
"Taking this departing aircraft into account, it's height, speed and angle of climb, how was someone on the ground able to point a laser into the cockpit and the eyes of a pilot. I would suggest the beam would hit the underside of the aircraft at most. A laser beam is dead straight. It would have to bend at some point in through the cockpit glass if this case is true.
I am not calling the crew liars'
Really?
Quite close though don't you think?
Personally if the captain of an aircraft thinks there are grounds on safety to turn an aircraft back then that's good enough for me. That decision will have cost the airline a great deal of money. such a decision would not be made not made lightly.
And your argument is clearly wrong. If you can see lights from the ground on take off then a laser can shine through an aircraft window in exactly the same way. With a powerful beam which can shine over three miles then the angle between the the beam and the ground is quite low if the aircraft is at a few thousand feet.
|
Mr Ecs,
Perhaps we'll get an explanation, perhaps not; all we really need to know is that if one of the two pilots is considered incapacitated then they are not going to continue and cross the Atlantic with 250 odd passengers.
Why assume that the laser was directly ahead? It could have been aimed at the side window; the aircraft could have been banked at the time?
Pilots must all know not to look at lasers but the instinct is to look, or at least glance, at something picked up in peripheral vision. It only takes a fraction of a second.
No point speculating really, but a possible explanation here was that the pilot affected was dazzled more than momentarily - perhaps he or she was still suffering symptoms over Ireland - and/or that discussions were had with HQ, resulting in the turnaround.
If I had been that pilot, and had been dazzled by a laser, maybe that would have been enough to make my performance a concern on its own.
Even without unforeseen extra problems, a pilot who is preoccupied with the worry that his eyesight might be permanently damaged and his career over is not one I would want to be landing the aircraft at JFK.
As to reflective windshields and eye protection - that is either going to reduce light transmission overall or reduce the visible spectrum selectively. Neither seems desirable.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 16:23
|
>> lock them up for a year or two.
>>
For endangering a passenger aircraft, surely 15 years to life!
|
>> >> lock them up for a year or two.
>> >>
>>
>> For endangering a passenger aircraft, surely 15 years to life!
Same incomprehensible stupidity as those who lob bricks off motorway bridges at passing vehicles. It's attempted manslaughter, I believe.
|
Definitely an issue in the wrong hands.
Potentially one could shine a laser into the window of the flat opposite and start a fire.
www.wickedlasers.com/laser-tech/laser_fun.html
|
Slight thread drift but a couple of years ago in Bulgaria I was showing a young relative how to start a fire with a magnifying glass.
Could light paper, scorch wood, melt plastic but for some reason it just would not light a bit of dry kitchen roll! Never could work out why!
|
|
John Nichol, the gulf war navigator shot down over Iraq said that they used anti laser eye protection as it was believed that the Iraqis had high power lasers for disabling pilots when he was on Sky News this morning. As said above not viable in the commercial field. The problem should be delt with at source.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 16:45
|
>> Why assume that the laser was directly ahead? It could have been aimed at the
>> side window; the aircraft could have been banked at the time?
Generally it's through the side windows, partly because that has the best view of the ground and partly because it's easier to tell if you've hit the plane from the side. You can certainly get a laser through the front windows on approach due to the fact that the pitch angle is often negative.
|
>>The problem should be delt with at source.
Agreed. But realistically how?
Laser devices are now out there and cheap. I don't think that can be put back in the box. Catching the idiots must be nigh on impossible. Educating the idiots has already failed.
If we want to correct this type of behaviour we need to go back to parenting and schools and start all over again.
|
>>
>> If we want to correct this type of behaviour we need to go back to
>> parenting and schools and start all over again.
>>
Irresponsibility in the young is hardly a new thing as the thread a few monts back on forum members misuse of fireworks will testify. I guess we all had bad parents and poor schooling.
|
>> If we want to correct this type of behaviour we need to go back to
>> parenting and schools and start all over again.
I have asked myself, if a plane was downed by a laser, and hundreds died, would the problem go away?
Alas I came to the conclusion that it would result in copycats. However, I also came to the conclusion that downing a plane by shining a laser at it is pretty near impossible.
High power Lasers can be banned. Guns are and that works well. Question is, is the risk high enough to bother? My conclusion - with respect to aircraft the risk is too small, however the scroats have not yet cottoned on to using them as much shorter range weapons, against the police maybe. Anyone use done against a speed camera yet? I'm sure it wont do a CCD chip much good.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 15 Feb 16 at 18:48
|
>> Anyone use done against a speed camera
>> yet? I'm sure it wont do a CCD chip much good.
>>
Some people have claimed this on another forum.
|
>> John Nichol, the gulf war navigator shot down over Iraq said that they used anti
>> laser eye protection as it was believed that the Iraqis had high power lasers for
>> disabling pilots
Its fairly clear now, the UK deliberately* or ignorantly over estimated the Iraqi military capability
*LIED
|
>> Could light paper, scorch wood, melt plastic but for some reason it just would not
>> light a bit of dry kitchen roll! Never could work out why!
>>
Because your kitchen roll is white. It tends to reflect a lot of the light energy focused on it and therefore is more difficult to ignite. Try a ibit of newspaper. The printed area - say a picture will be lot eAsier to ignite than the unprinted paper
|
I would think a more dangerous scenario would be for the low-life to use lasers on car drivers. speshly on a winding A road from a bridge.
It's bad enough now with all the halogen/laser/cheese and onion headlights on cars today. I won't drive in the dark. Motorways are ok but fast trunk roads ? no way. Let SWM do it or stay the night before coming home.
|
I recall an old black and white detective film (although darned if I can remember the title unfortunately) where the husband wanted to kill the wife. So he set up a lighthouse light in his upstairs study as his "hobby". Got the neighbours used to it being on every so often and whizzing about.
One night as she drove home from a party he turned it on, shone it into her eyes across the valley, she crashed over the edge of the ravine, there you go. No evidence and he knew she'd have a bit of alcohol in her blood. The perfect crime.
Or was it? As I can't quite recall it properly it might not have been but I expect he didn't get away with it for some reason.
Wish I could find the film now. Ring bells with anyone?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 16 Feb 16 at 10:33
|
>> Wish I could find the film now. Ring bells with anyone?
I couldn't find it either using google; might it have been an episode of 'tales of the unexpected' or similar?
|
|
On a similar note - in Tom Clancy's book about the war with Japan, Debt of Honour, the yanks had some handheld high-powered squillion candlepower lights which disoriented the pilots on final approach, causing many of their AWACS fleet to pile in.
|
>>I couldn't find it either using google; might it have been an episode of 'tales of the unexpected' or similar?
Possible I suppose. Hmm. Will bug me now.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 16 Feb 16 at 11:16
|
>> >>I couldn't find it either using google; might it have been an episode of 'tales
>> of the unexpected' or similar?
>>
>> Possible I suppose. Hmm. Will bug me now.
And me, I am now curious
|
I'll chat to my movie-buff friend tomorrow.
|
|
Maybe that's where Tom Clancy got the idea...
|
|
Naaah - he wasn't Jeffrey Archer....
|
Vis a vis half remembered film.
Well. Spoken to the Oracle, and she says she remembers it too. This is good. I'm not mad.
She then says it wa a short story, not a film at all. This is bad, as I don't read fiction and anyway can see the scenes quite clearly in my mind. So disagree with that. Unless it was both of course.
Giving up. One day it will pop out of nowhere.
|
>> Giving up. One day it will pop out of nowhere.
Any of these ring a bell?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tales_of_the_Unexpected_episodes
Looking through some of those, I remember now what a fantastic series that was
|
>>
>> Looking through some of those, I remember now what a fantastic series that was
>>
Made in Norwich and nearly all shot in East Anglia. My office building doubled for a terminal at Heathrow in one episode
|
>>
>> >>
>> >> Looking through some of those, I remember now what a fantastic series that was
>> >>
>> Made in Norwich and nearly all shot in East Anglia.
So was "Its the Quiz of the Week - Sale of the Century with Nicholas Parsons"
So lets not get carried away with the idea that Norwich is the cultural centre of the country.
|
Of course it is. Norwich was the home of Mr Pastry. Perhaps you're too young to remember that colossus of BBC light entertainment.
|
>> Of course it is. Norwich was the home of Mr Pastry. Perhaps you're too young
>> to remember that colossus of BBC light entertainment.
>>
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0DXDV1xThU
Yessssss, riiiighhhttttt I see what you mean.
((Qucik send the men in white coats to Norfolk)
|
|
I bet you didn't know that Richard Hearne,who played Mr Pastry very nearly got the part of Doctor Who and only lost out when it became clear that he wanted to play the part as Mr Pastry. Tom Baker was given the part instead.
|
>> I bet you didn't know that Richard Hearne,who played Mr Pastry very nearly got the
>> part of Doctor Who and only lost out when it became clear that he wanted
>> to play the part as Mr Pastry. Tom Baker was given the part instead.
TBH, thats TMI.
|
|
I know lots more about Mr Pastry. You only need to ask.
|
Wow!
Mr Pastry was born on 30th January - same as me. I suddenly feel a connection.
|
>> Any of these ring a bell?
Hard to tell, as they are trying not to give the plot away in those little synopses. It does make me remember that we used to call it Roald Dull's Tales of the Entirely Predictable for a reason though. I mean, Turn of the Tide? Come on. Man performs murder, puts body in the sea. I just can't imagine with that title what happens next. It's like watching Norman Wisdom on the edge of a swimming pool and taking easy bets.
I don't think it was that series, especially as the hindbrain is insisting it was black and white, forties or fifties. But nice idea thank you.
|
>> I don't think it was that series, especially as the hindbrain is insisting it was
>> black and white, forties or fifties. But nice idea thank you.
Ok, how about
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Twilight_Zone_episodes
|
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Twilight_Zone_episodes
No, but I can go for "there was some similar episodic series that wasn't sci-fi" but if so I don't know what. There used to be a Tales of Edgar Wallace, and I think there was Masterpiece Theatre or something - without googling, I'm sure there were others. It might have been of that genre.
Watched a lot of those Twilight Zones recently on DVD from Lovefilm. I love the one with the bank clerk (Burgess Meredith) who wants to read, his passion is reading, he loves reading, and nobody will ever let him. One day there is a nuclear war, and he's the last man left alive - so now he can read to his heart's content...but then there's a twist.
Bears no examination as a plot but it's a great idea and Burgess is always good value. He's also in a fantastic version of the play "Dr Faustus" on Spotify, recorded in the fifties, which I must have listened to a million times by now.
You know, I think this might be thread drift. Sorry.
|
A colleague was saying that the grandparents bought a laser for their 7 year old. Packaging was aimed at that age group.
Fortunately mum was aware that this wasn't a sensible idea, and it would end up being shone into people's eyes.
|
>> A colleague was saying that the grandparents bought a laser for their 7 year old.
Odd choice for a toy, isn't it?
|
>>
>> Odd choice for a toy, isn't it?
>>
If they were spams, they would have bought the sprog an AR-15.
|
Of course there are lasers and there are lasers.
We use different types of lasers at work to treat patients depending on what needs to be done.
One thing.. they are b***** big! even the low powered CO2 lasers are suitcase size (YaGs twice the size), these are used to treat skin lesions and are stopped by simple clear glass/plastic glasses (they have a red targeting beam as CO2 is invisible) and have to be very close to the area to be treated.
My thoughts would be that hand held lasers would not be able to 'burn' at such distances.
How do the 'laser' pens work? are they a very powerful LED?
|
>> How do the 'laser' pens work? are they a very powerful LED?
Sort of, its a laser diode, different junction material to an LED. They came to prominence and bulk manufacture in fibre optic communication applications.
|
|
I have had a laser scalpel used on me a couple of times. It cuts and cauterises at the same time. I am glad I was unconcious at the time, the surgeon said that he caught his finger tip with it and it stings a bit.
|
|
I went to a lecture about medical lasers and there was one set up to play with afterwards. Very neat cuts were possible. Even I as an absolute beginner managed to cut a selected seed out from a green pepper with no other damage.
|
>> Odd choice for a toy, isn't it?
Maybe it was to tease the cat with. With the one I bought from the market, our old cat would chase the beam around the room, paw at it on white doors, etc. Endless hours of fun to be had - obviously making sure not to shine it in its eyes.
|
>> >> Odd choice for a toy, isn't it?
>>
>> Maybe it was to tease the cat with. With the one I bought from the
>> market, our old cat would chase the beam around the room, paw at it on
>> white doors, etc. Endless hours of fun to be had - obviously making sure not
>> to shine it in its eyes.
I'm always shining bright lights into cats eyes.
|
|
Hopefully the road kind, and not the 4 legged kind.
|
|
Thought you meant AC? Isn't he some kind of cat?
|
>> Maybe it was to tease the cat with. With the one I bought from the
>> market, our old cat would chase the beam around the room, paw at it on
>> white doors, etc. Endless hours of fun to be had - obviously making sure not
>> to shine it in its eyes.
>>
We've got four cats, but strangely only one shows any reaction to the pen (small one for highlighting slide shows etc, not lethal James Bond kind).
She always thinks Red Spot lives in the last place we directed it to - cupboard, under a door, through the cat flap etc. If we run it up say the dishwasher to the red on-light and then turn off, she will sit looking at the light for a while waiting for it to start playing again, and will pat it encouragingly.
It seems that the other cats either can't see the spot, or else are so intelligent they know it's only a silly game and they distain to recognise it. She can distinguish the red light from a green so is not colour blind.
Cats are funny that way. Some will watch television, some don't appear to recognise a picture at all. A few will respond to shadows as if real objects, but most can't see them at all.
|
My dog watches TV. His absolute favourite is Springwatch, but any wildlife programme holds his attention. He just lies down on the rug in the sitting room with his head on his paws spellbound.
Anything with bears in it is always popular with him too. I don't mind a bear myself.
|
|
Sounds like he has severe learning difficulties himself. Should be dropped from the helicopter some ten miles East of Spurn Point.
|
Lasered aircraft turns back - Dutchie
