Twelve million pounds spend to keep this chap in a Embassy.
Is it me but could this money be better spend on the things we need.If you take on a powerfull Country as a individual about wrongdoing you end up being a martyr.
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We are not keeping him anywhere. He is trying to dodge a valid arrest warrant from Sweden and is accused of rape.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 5 Feb 16 at 10:39
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>> Twelve million pounds spend to keep this chap in a Embassy.
>>
Who's paying? Ecuador presumably, or are they charging him for B&B?
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>> Who's paying?
The UK paid the £12m to have a 24x7 police presence outside the embassy. That's stopped now.
The UK is not detaining him - he is there of his own free will. He can walk out anytime and be arrested. What we are preventing him doing is leaving and going to Ecuador because there is a valid arrest warrant for him. I can't see how he can be allowed to go to Ecuador.
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>> >> Who's paying?
>>
>> The UK paid the £12m to have a 24x7 police presence outside the embassy. That's
>> stopped now.
I never understand this kind of thing. Are we saying we recruited an extra two police officers for this job and paid them £2m a year each (inc. doughnuts)? Or did it simply take two existing coppers off other duties, in which case that's £25k a year per copper and we were paying it anyway?
All sounds like a load of old sphericals designed to create Mailrage to me.
But then again, I'm a bit rusty on my 5 times table as we all saw this week.
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I think it's the overtime bill.
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I'm obviously in the wrong job. Where do I apply? I'll stand on a pavement for 2 mill a year. No sweat.
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We'll probably never know how the figures add up, but to have two cops outside all the time means you need 6 cops across 3 shifts per day. And you can't expect them to work 7 days either.
So for 24 x 7 that's 168 hours. With an officer working 37 hours per week we need 4.5 officers (round it up to 5). But we need two outside. That's now actually 10 officers per week. So if they earned £40k pa, that's £400k right away.
Still don't know how they get to £12m!
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The costs of employing someone are considerably more than their actual salary (think NI, holiday pay, sick pay, other benefits, office space, training, uniforms etc etc) but I still don't see how that reaches £12m.
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I think I'm right in saying there were at least two officers outside for about 40 months (June 2012 to October 2015). If we need at least 10 officers to cover the shifts per week (there could have been more). If total cost was £12.6m, then the cost per month was £315k. Make it easy and call it 4 weeks per month with 10 officers per week that's £7,875 per officer each week or £409,500.
That's a lot of extra overhead per diplomatic officer!
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I think he is terrified the Americans are going to get hold of him, lock him up and lose the key.
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>> Yup.
Only after Sweden have finished with him. He is using the Yanks as an excuse to avoid the rape charge.
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And maybe the rape charge has only been cooked up to get him in the sights of the Yanks.
Who knows.
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And maybe the rape charge has only been cooked up to get him in the sights of the Yanks.
My understanding is Sweden has a very different interpretation of the crime of rape to most other countries. One would have to do some research but I have it on my head that some of it is not even prosecutable as assault here.
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>> And maybe the rape charge has only been cooked up to get him in the
>> sights of the Yanks.
>>
>> Who knows.
Who cares
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>> Who cares
>>
Well we must do at least a bit to be talking about it.
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>> >> Who cares
>> >>
>>
>> Well we must do at least a bit to be talking about it.
I dont, not even a bit
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The costs of employing someone are considerably more than their actual salary
Rule of thumb is to employ someone costs twice what ever you pay them. As a minimum, probably more.
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>> "The Full Allegations" allegedly.
A squalid narrative, and boringly repetitive too. Ghastly chap and a couple of sluts it seems.
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"The Met provided a breakdown of the round-the-clock policing costs, which it estimated to be £12.6m - £7.1m in normal pay, £3.4m in overtime and £2.1m indirect costs."
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It isn't right and proper that Julian Assange be arrested here for an alleged Swedish rape.. then find there isn't enough evidence to convict... and hey presto it's off the US with their appalling legal system... and have him incarcerated for 40 years in some hell hole, because he's released their secrets on a website.
Somewhere along the line there needs to be something arranged whereby the Yanks are told to clear off.
It won't happen of course, which is why we have the stalemate.
For the record, if he is guilty of rape, then the Swedes should lock him up for a long time.
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>It isn't right and proper that...............
I agree. If the US wants him they should issue their own warrant now which can then be considered or they should state that they will not be attempting to extradite him.
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>> >It isn't right and proper that...............
>>
>> I agree. If the US wants him they should issue their own warrant now which
>> can then be considered or they should state that they will not be attempting to
>> extradite him.
>>
At this moment in time, we only have a swedish arrest warrant, and that is all he is hiding from.
Here and now, in the UK, he is just using the American thing as a smoke screen, and everyone is swallowing it.
What happens once he gets to Sweden is up to them, and roger all to do with us.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Feb 16 at 16:58
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>> At this moment in time, we only have a swedish arrest warrant, and that is
>> all he is hiding from.
You'd have to be exceptionally naive indeed if you didn't think the Yanks would extradite him if they thought they could.
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>> You'd have to be exceptionally naive indeed if you didn't think the Yanks would extradite
>> him if they thought they could.
>>
They probably don't want to if he has knowledge of more of their skeletons. I am sure they can deal with him without an extradition and with deniability.
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>> >> At this moment in time, we only have a swedish arrest warrant, and that
>> is
>> >> all he is hiding from.
>>
>> You'd have to be exceptionally naive indeed if you didn't think the Yanks would extradite
>> him if they thought they could.
Exceptionaly Naive? " Oh is this this the "people person" speaking?
I repeat,
All we (the UK) have is an arrest warrant, for a rape charge, from Sweden. And that is all we will be acting on.
What the Yanks want, might do, or could do, is merely conjecture, whipped up by the miscreant himself and has nothing to do with it. What happens when he gets to Sweden, is nothing to do with us.
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>> Exceptionaly Naive? " Oh is this this the "people person" speaking?
Yes.. kindness isn't a weakness and all that.
>> All we (the UK) have is an arrest warrant, for a rape charge, from Sweden.
>> And that is all we will be acting on.
>>
>> What the Yanks want, might do, or could do, is merely conjecture, whipped up by
>> the miscreant himself and has nothing to do with it. What happens when he gets
>> to Sweden, is nothing to do with us.
Yes, all accurate, can't fault it...however, it misses the bigger picture.
The fellow we'd like to arrest, on behalf of our reciprocal arrangement with the Swedes, thinks that if he goes to Sweden, the next step is the US.... and I agree with him...
.. and as he's holed up somewhere in our country, then that does make it something to do with us.
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.....almost right.
This rather balance article from shortly after his taking refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy makes a good summary of the situation, none of which (it appears to me) seems to have changed.
www.newstatesman.com/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition
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>> This rather balance article from shortly after his taking refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy makes
>> a good summary of the situation, none of which (it appears to me) seems to
>> have changed.
>>
>> www.newstatesman.com/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition
Absolutely - how can anyone argue against this standpoint?
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>> www.newstatesman.com/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition
Thanks for posting that link. A good summary I think (and I love the links to so many fascinating legal etc blogs.
The key comment thouh is surely:
One can add that there is no evidence whatsoever that the United Kingdom would not swiftly comply with any extradition request from the United States; quite the reverse. Ask Gary McKinnon, or Richard O'Dwyer, or the NatWest Three.
UK has a lamentable record for kow towing to US in extradition. At the time the treaty/rights concerned were set up (post 9/11) they were supposedly to deal with terrorists. Those actually extradited are accused of hacking, economic crimes and busting US imposed sanctions.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 09:15
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Stuck behind its pay-wall sadly Bromp.
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>> Stuck behind its pay-wall sadly Bromp.
>>
The newstatesman article? I read it fine.
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>> Stuck behind its pay-wall sadly Bromp.
Odd!
I'm not a NS subscriber and I had to ignore a request for payment in order to read it but no paywall in Times sense. Maybe it's like the Telegraph 'ration' and clearing your cookies will allow further free bites at the cherry?
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New Statesman is detecting Ad-Block and stopping you because of that. Turn it off for that page only, read the article and then re-enable Ad-Block.
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Ask Gary
>> McKinnon, or Richard O'Dwyer, or the NatWest Three.
>>
Perhaps not the best examples for the author to use, two of the three examples never left the uk.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 09:34
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>> Perhaps not the best examples for the author to use, two of the three examples
>> never left the uk.
Mmmmm. Neither had an easy ride.
O'Dwyer did a plea bargain under threat of extradition.
McKinnon's case dragged on for years. Ended with a public campaign and the irony of Theresa May relying on the Human Rights Act to stop the proceedings.
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>> Mmmmm. Neither had an easy ride.
>>
>>
i never suggested they did. But If i were to make a point about people being extradited quickly and hinting at unfairness, i would use an example where people were actually extradited.
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>> UK has a lamentable record for kow towing to US in extradition. At the time
>> the treaty/rights concerned were set up (post 9/11) they were supposedly to deal with terrorists.
>> Those actually extradited are accused of hacking, economic crimes and busting US imposed sanctions.
Whats worse is that internally the American people don't know how badly the PATRIOT act has ripped holes through their precious constitutional rights and crippled their rights to legal arrest, detention and fair trial. Miranda is now a mockery.
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>> he is just using the American thing as a smoke screen,
Perhaps.
However, if the US just said that they had no intention of issuing a warrant then the whole argument would go away.
Since the US has *not* said that, my superstitious mind says that they have every intention of issuing a warrant at some point, presumably when they think it will be most likely to succeed with the minimum of effort.
And for some reason they must think that an extradition warrant would be unsuccessful and/or counter productive at this time and more likely to be viable in the future.
Which is entirely within their rights, but it does make it unlikely that Assange is just using it as a smokescreen.
Also, I assume that he has breached bail conditions and is liable to be arrested in the UK under that warrant also?
Its all a screw up, but nonetheless in the middle is a man accused of some kind of sexual crime and that needs to be addressed. It doesn't sound a particularly serious* offence, though it does make hims sound pretty unpleasant.
I am not sure that his presence is required for a trial, but presumably the Swedish think it is essential.
*of course all sexual crimes are serious, but you know what I mean.
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>> Since the US has *not* said that, my superstitious mind says that they have every
>> intention of issuing a warrant at some point, presumably when they think it will be
>> most likely to succeed with the minimum of effort.
Since when has "someone has not said they will not arrest me" been a valid defence of any kind? The Americans have not said they will not arrest me!
>> I am not sure that his presence is required for a trial, but presumably the
>> Swedish think it is essential.
I think most civilised countries think that attendance at your trial is pretty important. Trial in absentia is normally the province of those countries we bomb, invade or sanction.
So what we have where is what everyone admits is a pretty unpleasant bloke, who is wanted to answer a rape charge, and one who had admittedly broken quite a few official secrets laws.
Why is everyone leaping to his defence?
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>> Why is everyone leaping to his defence?
>>
Because the whole world shouldn't have to jump when the US says so.
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>> >> Why is everyone leaping to his defence?
>> >>
>> Because the whole world shouldn't have to jump when the US says so.
The US hasn't said anything.
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>> The US hasn't said anything.
>>
You well know what I mean though.
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>> but nonetheless in the middle is a man accused of
>> some kind of sexual crime and that needs to be addressed.
Why can't the Swedes send an investigator/prosecutor (from whatever their system is) to interview him under caution in the embassy.
Assange could have legal representation present etc...and the Swedes could then see if they have enough for a prosecution.
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Why can't the Swedes send an investigator/prosecutor (from whatever their system is) to interview him
>> under caution in the embassy.
>>
>> Assange could have legal representation present etc...and the Swedes could then see if they have
>> enough for a prosecution
He's not wanted for questioning, it's past that point. He's under arrest, well they're trying to.
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>> Why can't the Swedes send an investigator/prosecutor (from whatever their system is) to interview him
>> under caution in the embassy.
>>
>> Assange could have legal representation present etc...and the Swedes could then see if they have
>> enough for a prosecution.
Ok try this little scenario.
An Aussie, lets call him Brucie, a convicted hacker - convicted for hacking into american military computers from his home country, runs a whistleblower web site, that publishes confidential material obtained from the USA. The Australians and the Americans announce they have started an investigation into his activities. Nothing more than that.
Brucie travels to London, to get away from his home government where at a party your daughter claims he raped her.
Brucie flees to Sweden. The met and cps say they want to arrest and interview him under caution because they think they have enough for a prosecution. They issue an arrest warrant to bring him back to the UK.
At this point Brucie runs off to the Argentinian Embassy in Stockholm claiming its all a plot to enable illegal rendition to the US
How would you like things to proceed at that point?
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Quite Zero. No-one thinks of the alleged victim in all this.
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>> How would you like things to proceed at that point?
The personal angle would have any victim wanting blood, inc me.
Sensible decisions are made by those with no connection to the case.
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>> >> How would you like things to proceed at that point?
>>
>> The personal angle would have any victim wanting blood, inc me.
>>
>> Sensible decisions are made by those with no connection to the case.
Ok lets remove the personal angle. As a general principal, crime committed in the UK, you have a valid european arrest warrant to bring him back, and he runs off to hide in the Argentinain embassy.
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>> Ok lets remove the personal angle. As a general principal, crime committed in the UK,
>> you have a valid european arrest warrant to bring him back, and he runs off
>> to hide in the Argentinain embassy.
>>
My thoughts would conform with what you'd think they would i.e. I'd want him back here for British justice to do its thing...however...
...I think the tentacles of US justice abroad are far too firm.
I think that A, they are so far up their own backsides that they need to understand the rest of us are not American..and B, their justice system stinks...
.....and I say this as someone who has been there many times, like the people and will go again (trip planned for April 2017).
So in your scenario, despite the fact I'd want matey back here... I'd understand the principle of him holing up in the Swedish Ecuadorian embassy.
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>> So in your scenario, despite the fact I'd want matey back here... I'd understand the
>> principle of him holing up in the Swedish Ecuadorian embassy.
Even tho, as described in my scenario, the americans are not actively seeking his arrest?
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I don't think we have any choice; there is an international.arrest warrant which are own courts have said is valid.
It is for the Swedish courts to decide his guilt or innocence on those sex crimes.
We have to honour the warrant as we would expect them to honour one of ours.
And i think it is correct that he face those accusations.
I agree that.the US is being obtuse and I do think Assange's fears are probably valid. That just doesn't give us any freedom to do any think.different. .
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>> I don't think we have any choice; there is an international.arrest warrant which are own
>> courts have said is valid.
>>
>> It is for the Swedish courts to decide his guilt or innocence on those sex
>> crimes.
>>
>> We have to honour the warrant as we would expect them to honour one of
>> ours.
>>
>> And i think it is correct that he face those accusations.
And nor should we care, He is not a British Subject, or Citizen, his country of abode Australia, has not requested his protection, and he has caused us a deal of hassle and expense, we have no obligations towards him.
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He is guilty of something he's afraid of because he's still in the Ecuadorian embassy. If he was innocent he'd have not had to flee there whilst on bail.
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They were interviewing on of the people that put up the money for his bail on the radio the other morning. He was still defending him, wonder if they had their bail money taken from them ?
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Answered my own question from a Guardian article in 2012....seems that nine of them had to cough up £93k.
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>> ...I think the tentacles of US justice abroad are far too firm.
>>
>> I think that A, they are so far up their own backsides that they need
>> to understand the rest of us are not American..and B, their justice system stinks...
>>
>> .....and I say this as someone who has been there many times, like the people
>> and will go again (trip planned for April 2017).
>>
>> So in your scenario, despite the fact I'd want matey back here... I'd understand the
>> principle of him holing up in the Swedish Ecuadorian embassy.
I am having severe trouble reconciling this to your previously published admiration of US President George W Bush, his foreign intervention exploits and your support of the Death Penalty as proscribed by US courts.
I think the mods should be told that someone has hacked your account.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Feb 16 at 23:46
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>> I am having severe trouble reconciling this to your previously published admiration of US President
>> George W Bush, his foreign intervention exploits and your support of the Death Penalty as
>> proscribed by US courts.
It's easy... I think democratic countries should make their own decisions and not kowtow to others...
I like strong, decisive leadership and support robust actions against wrongdoers. George W Bush achieved that..(and Barack Obama hasn't).
I think the truly awful in life, who've committed atrocious crimes should be dispatched with, for the benefit of all and in particular the weak.
I do also, however, wish the above is achieved within decent confines....and in the scenario(s) you are talking about, I disagree with US actions or likely actions.... because an Australian citizen who has chosen to release data that the US would have preferred he didn't, shouldn't be hoiked out of another Western country if he's committed no offence in that other Western country in relation to the US interests...and shoved in some awful pokey in the US, constantly shackled and wearing a jump suit with effectively no access to any decent legal advice.
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> ...I think the tentacles of US justice abroad are far too firm.
In this case I don't think so. Don't forget wikileaks started in 2006 and he was accused of rape in 2010. If the Americans are so keen on having him sent there, why aren't they doing anything to that end? Why do you think they are waiting for him to be sent to Sweden?
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>> Rule of thumb is to employ someone costs twice what ever you pay them. As
>> a minimum, probably more.
>>
Whatever it costs it's peanuts to the Met. They have almost unlimited funds for pursuing this and other cases against master criminals like Lords Brittan and Bramall.
If they really wanted to arrest Assange they could have withdrawn all visible police presence and then if he came out tracked him and arrested him somewhere well away from Ecuadorean territory.
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Watched his smug, self-centred, bumptious speech to the masses on Sky News this afternoon, including his arrogant demand to have someone removed for shouting out, and thought the quicker he's on his way to Sweden or wherever, the better.
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His plane to Sweden may have a technical problem and have to divert to the USA. :-)
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>> .....or Prestwick
>>
The local plane spotters missed the previous rendition flights, they really need to up their game if they are going to spot this one.
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He should leave the Embassy,go to Sweden and face the charges if there are any.A rape charge is serious,ok it looks like a honey trap to get him send to the States.
The publicity what would follow him if the Americans arrested him might save him.Easy for me to say if he could be locked up for the rest of his life.
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For a generally intelligent lot there seems to be some very naive comments here. Regardless of the Rape allegations (which I surmise are spurious) his card is marked and he's a dead Duck, for want of a better expression one way or another.
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>> of the Rape allegations (which I surmise are spurious)
Do you.
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>> >> of the Rape allegations (which I surmise are spurious)
>> Do you.
Didn't these women go to bed with the fellow Zero? What did they expect to happen, one wonders?
He's obviously awful, but they weren't put off by that. Either they were up for it or they just didn't care.
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>>What did they expect to happen
Dunno, presumably a trial would cover that. Whatever it was they expected, I guess that their point is that what actually happened was different.
Nonetheless, the whole point is that it has been decided that there is sufficient case to be addressed. He is trying to avoid that. Whether because he fears that trial in particular or custody in general is difficult to know.
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did you not surmise why the Yanks did not request his extraction, (which they would have got) without a spurious rape thing?
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We will see in the fullness of time.
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I have no idea whether the accusations are true or not, that would rather be the point of the investigation and trial that he is avoiding, but I'd pretty much agree his card is marked.
Its going to end in [his] tears one way or another.
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>> I have no idea whether the accusations are true or not, that would rather be
>> the point of the investigation and trial that he is avoiding, but I'd pretty much
>> agree his card is marked.
>>
>> Its going to end in [his] tears one way or another.
I do hope so for his sake.
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Just for clarification Dutchie, a "honey trap" is one where pleasant temptation is used as the bait; which is not really the case here.
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Ecuadorians finally got fed up with him. Now arrested and in the custody of the Metropolitan Police.
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>>Ecuadorians finally got fed up with him
I find that very easy to believe. It was reported that one of the bones of contentions was that he would not clean up after his cat? FFS.
I really rather hope the US extradite him. Not because I have any particular feelings about his guilt, but just because he's such an a***.
Mind you, I can't believe that the Met are pleased to have him.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 11 Apr 19 at 11:35
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Presumably, like Jack Shepherd, Assange will face quick summary justice for jumping bail. Shepherd got 6 months consecutive to the six years he got in absentia for manslaughter of Charlotte Brown.
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What do you get for something like this? He's not wanted in the UK (in so many ways) and his only offence here was jumping bail.
How do they decide the seriousness of the offence or the magnitude of the punishment in a case where we would would not otherwise be inflicting any punishment; [other than extradition]?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 11 Apr 19 at 11:54
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>> What do you get for something like this? He's not wanted in the UK (in
>> so many ways) and his only offence here was jumping bail.
www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/failure-to-surrender-to-bail/
Max 12 months, usual range discharge to 26 weeks. I'd imagine, in terms of both culpability and harm, this would be at serious end of offending.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Apr 19 at 12:16
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It must have been awful for the Ecuadorians, it is only a very small Embassy. I see that Pamela Anderson has thrown her political weight behind his cause. :-)
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BBC Radio reports he was also arrested on a US extradition warrant
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Yep. Met would have had all their ducks in a row for some time
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Wonder if his backers lost their recognisance from the original bail hearing. IIRC there was a considerable sum of money involved.
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Just watched the video of him being removed from the embassy. He looked like a frail old man, hardly recognised him.
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Had to have been a s***, joyless existence. Which cheers me no end.
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I was thinking that a jail would problably be a better life. Strange charmless individual
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I go stir crazy after a day if I've not been beyond the front gate
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...yeah, but the Welsh embassy is well down-market on the Ecuadorian......
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That'll be WikiLeeks then ?
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>>Strange charmless individual....
>>
...maybe our Government have sprung him to replace Theresa in the Brexit negotiations.
All joking aside, I'm not entirely sure I'm happy about him being extradited to The States, particularly in the current environment over there, exemplified by the current regime's dogged resistance to allowing the ICC to investigate potential war crimes commited by the USA.
Sometimes, one needs whistleblowers, however unpalatable their approach and character might be.
My own concerns about Assange are the potential charges laid in Sweden, which he appears now to have "escaped" (them being withdrawn, but largely it would seem on technicalities rather than any clear shortfall in evidence).
My own view at the time was that he was using the potential of being extradited from Sweden to The States as a subterfuge for avoiding sexual assault charges if extradited to Sweden (which should have happened).
I may be mis-remembering, but I think that, at the time, there were reasonable assurances from Sweden that he wouldn't be passed on to the 'Merkins - it would be pretty ironic if the UK now decided he could be extradited there.
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That's what the Sweden promised.
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>> www.indy100.com/article/julian-assange-arrest-wikileaks-ecuador-embassy-hygiene-8865371
Yeuch!
Learned something from link there - use of term deadnaming.
Seems to mean to refer to somebody who has changed gender by their former name.
As in Fox news deadnaming Chelsea Manning by using her former name of Bradley.
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Sentenced to 50 weeks for breach of bail.
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Pretty much the max, no surprises there.
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Judges remarks:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/sentencing-remarks-assange-010519.pdf
Utterly scathing about whole charade including attempted mitigation and suggestion time in embassy and sureties lost should reduce sentence.
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Good for her.
Though his arrogance is such that I doubt he'll learn anything from it and will regard it as persecution. A more 'entitled' man it is difficult to imagine.
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Julian Assange. - Zero
