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Students have an excuse for being illiberal because they are still wet behind the ears. But there are adult academics who have much less excuse. People aren't as bright as they think they are.
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Very silly of the Oriel undergraduates to be down on their college benefactor Cecil Rhodes. Imperialism was thought perfectly respectable in his day. Indeed some great nations think it still is.
:o}
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>> I agree with the article and think it to be a modern scourge
Shocked to the core by that revelation :-P
Heard something about it on the radio this morning and meant to read up a bit and work out Furedi's position/agenda. Typical of too much modern reporting the article takes a difficult example (Rhodes), an egregious one (Greer) then seasons them with historic and/or foreign stuff to draw a conclusion that is at best lightly supported by real fact.
There was more to Greer's views than something about castrated men - though she may have stirred the pot. And anyway she spoke so not really banned at all.
None of it's new. Same stuff was going on when i was a teenager.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 19 Dec 15 at 15:54
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>> None of it's new. Same stuff was going on when i was a teenager.
>>
That's true.. however in those days, despite bleating on about it, a student' view didn't get any further than that.... their view.
Nowadays it seems that is changing.
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"Ntokozo Qwabe, who set up the Rhodes Must Fall in Oxford campaign, is one of more than 8,000 foreign students who have been able to study at Oxford because of a Rhodes Scholarship, paid for by the Rhodes Trust, which was set up by Cecil Rhodes in his will."
Oh, the irony.
Another delightful 'campaigner'...
"Annie Teriba, a campaigner with the group said earlier this year: “There’s a violence to having to walk past the statue every day on the way to your lectures, there’s a violence to having to sit with paintings of former slave holders whilst writing your exams.â€
In October, Teriba stepped down from her union roles at Oxford, accused of rape. She admitted to having sex without seeking consent."
Having had to watch the #rhodesmustfall Bulldust her in Cape Town for the past few months, I have no sympathy for the pathetic excuses for human beings who leap onto the bandwagon, then bleat when they fail exams, because they were too busy protesting...
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>> Another delightful 'campaigner'...
>> "Annie Teriba, a campaigner with the group said earlier this year: “There’s a violence to
>> having to walk past the statue every day on the way to your lectures, there’s
>> a violence to having to sit with paintings of former slave holders whilst writing your
>> exams.â€
Bit too easy for those of us whose culture has dominated the last few centuries to write off Ms Teriba and others of similar viewpoint as people who bleat etc.
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>> Bit too easy for those of us whose culture has dominated the last few centuries
>> to write off Ms Teriba and others of similar viewpoint as people who bleat etc.
Speak for yourself Bromp, it's not my culture. Nor is she a slave, but being a student of one of the best universities in the world means she need a pretext to be a victim.
This sort of thing makes as much sense as Tony Blair apologising for slavery and the Irish potato famine*, or asking present day Germans to say sorry for the war.
Forbears have nothing to do with it; and if they did, most of mine were much nearer to being slaves than being Cecil Rhodes.
I have zero patience with her sort of campaigning. There are plenty of ongoing problems that she could be applying herself to if she wants to put the world to rights.
*not that Blair did actually apologise, even though ot was reported as such - weasel words were employed, correctly for once.
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Bromptonaut,
This whole protest action had its seeds in Cape Town, when a 30-year-old student decided to vent his rage at the colonialist nature of the campus, with Rhodes' statue (notwithstanding that Rhodes had actually gifted the area where the campus is... and endowed it with a few squiliion pounds) by turning up barechested, in a pair of lycra shorts, a pink construction helmet, and a container full of faeces, which he proceeded to lob all over said statue.
Later protests involved a campaign to scrap fees, which turned violent, led to arson attacks at several universities, intimidation against those who wished to write exams, and many exams being cancelled.
Not to mention the police out in force, using rubber bullets and birdshot to disperse rock-throwing students.
Now, all my siblings were SA educated. And their common tale is that, come year end, all those who'd spent the year NOT working started looking for excuses why they shouldn't write exams, or why they should pass, or come with some other arbitrary reason why they should be allowed to return the next year...
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Not my frownie by the way Bromp.
I agree we should generally take a moment to consider the reasons for other people's points of view, and I accept that they are entitled to hold them whether they are bonkers or not (I mean Annie Teriba, not you).
Where she is out of order is in demanding the removal of statues, plaques etc. This is the opposite of freedom and tolerance, the "ban it" syndrome. If everything that a mob could be roused to object to was banned, there's be nothing left.
There was a bit of a debate here recently about the meaning of "hypocrite". Ntokozo Qwabe comes pretty close.
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>>
>> Bit too easy for those of us whose culture has dominated the last few centuries
>> to write off Ms Teriba and others of similar viewpoint as people who bleat etc.
>>
>>
You mean we all inherit the culture, the faults, the accomplishments and the attitudes of our ancestors, and cannot escape this burden by simply shrugging and saying "but it wasn't me" ?
If that is the case, then what is the point of education, or of Oxford University?
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www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/rhodes-scholars-elect-class-of-2014/ntokozo-qwabe
He was also awarded the Mandela Rhodes Scholarship which he used towards his master’s degree at the University of Cape Town. However, in mid-year, another great opportunity came knocking when he was awarded the Rhodes Scholarship to study at Oxford University in England.
He is happy to take the money!
www.cherwell.org/news/uk/2015/08/18/scholar-campaigner-south-african-ntokozo-qwabe
Why has it taken so long during has live in Oxford to raise this problem.
He seems to be a bright enough guy !
( A declared interest. My daughter was a post graduate there very recently and I have visited Oriel many many times )
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It's a pity they can't direct this energy on the current low level of governance in SA, rather than get excited about the dreadful behaviour of people a century ago.
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versanews.co.uk/2015/11/09/rhodes-must-fall-bring-the-noise-to-oriel-square/
Oriel’s Vice-Provost, Prof. Annette Volfing, played her part, coming out an hour into the protest to listen to the crowd’s demands and receive the petition, organised by RMF and signed by 1900 people. Qwabe first sat down with the Vice-Provost, as equal humans, not as authority and student, before refusing to look at her when presenting the petition, arguing that the college does not look on him as equal whilst the statue stands.
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Well, in this day of internetz and facebook and twitter, anyone who might consider hiring qwabe will easily be able to see his pedigree, won't they?
He'll end up in some libtard thinktank, no doubt, writing pompous letters to the Guardian.
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Trinity Cambridge was founded by a man who murdered some of his wives, and presided over the destruction of endless quantities of English cultural artefacts and history (monasteries, stained glass, churches, cathedrals etc.)
He wiped away endless quantities of culture and history with his Reformation. In his rush to get rid of the bad bits (corruption in the church), he threw away the good bits (culture and craftsmanship). And he was a wife murderer.
Yet his statue adorns the Great Gate of Trinity. #VIIImustgo
zephyr.nsysu.edu.tw/prof_so/T_C_2007/IMAGE/tudor%20pic/Tudor%20Court-Sept/statue%20of%20Henry%20VIII.JPG
People like these protestors have a similarly short-sighted approach to history. Erase history, and then you lose it.
The Rhodes statue at Oriel is attached to a building named after and paid for by Rhodes. You can't airbrush him out that easily... Without Rhodes and his chums (i.e. The Empire) it's doubtful that the protesting students would be doing anything more than living in mud huts. Moreover, as the African population would be a fraction of what it is now they'd never have been born. They have much that Rhodes did for which to be thankful.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 21 Dec 15 at 12:59
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Ian;
What gift could I easily ship from South Africa for a 30yr old South African female friend who lives here and misses home (she's not been in SA for 15 years)?
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Mrs Balls' Chutney
Niknaks
(both huge sellers in the Saffer community in London)
Or how about a nice magazine subscription?
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Are you aware of anything like a South African version of this...?
www.britishcornershop.co.uk/?gclid=CLTRpIyO7ckCFVgHkQoduvYEQw
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Tadaaaaah!
www.expatshop.co.za/
and at R22.50 to the quid, such bargoons!
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>> Ian;
>>
>> What gift could I easily ship from South Africa for a 30yr old South African
>> female friend who lives here and misses home (she's not been in SA for 15
>> years)?
>>
Bobotie?
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>> Without Rhodes and his chums (i.e. The Empire) it's doubtful that the protesting students
>> would be doing anything more than living in mud huts.
That's the narrative used 40yrs ago to support the Smith regime and then and later apartheid. I'd guess your intelligent and educated enough not to actually swallow it and that in reality you're trolling.
More generally, Rhodes died well over a hundred years ago leaving a rather odd will that created the fund for Rhodes scholarships. The fund today is managed by trustees living in the 21st century.
Accepting Rhodes funding while campaigning against the current trustees may be hypocrisy. Doing so while eschewing the founder's racism in any way, shape or form, is in not,
And on removing statues I can do no better than lift a line from a contributor on cyclechat:
Surely it is a common thing. Russia etc could not move for statues of various leaders. Should Germany be made to keep up all the Nazi stuff?
If a country wants to celebrate someone then they put up a statue. If they want to stop celebrating that person then they take it down. Simples.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 23 Dec 15 at 20:09
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Acknowledging isn't the same as celebrating. And do you need to remove the statue to stop celebrating them?
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>> I'd guess your intelligent and educated enough not to actually swallow it and that in reality you're trolling.
Trolling? How so? Are you telling me that without the Empires, Africa would suddenly have had an industrial revolution by now? Rot.
I'm not trying to support anything - Smith regime or apartheid or anything else; how dare you try to suggest what I wrote was supporting a racist regime. I am merely pointing out that these are historical facts.
It's history, it's in the past, you can't get upset or worked up about it! You can learn from it; you can change the future, but what you don't seem to realise is that you can't change the past.
Don't forget that Henry VIII murdered some wives. What are you going to do about THAT? #HenryVIIImustfall
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I'm very upset because my ancestors - whoever they were - were a pretty murderous lot.
I mean, those Jutes, Pict, Saxons, Romans, Normans etc etc etc did the old rape and pillage across Britain. Dunno how far back I can go, But somebody is to blame.
So, what I'll do is get tooled up with a container of faeces, and go and lob it at a statue. Next thing, every radical tosspot at the University - and his dog - is supporting us!
That'll make the authorities sit up!
Students occupy the offices of UCT, blockade the roads with burning tyres and rubbish, and prevent other students from attending lectures.
Oh, we won that one!
Then 'demand' that Stellenbosch, one of the better seats of learning, and famous for several world breakthroughs - stop lectures in Afrikaans, and henceforth teach in English.
Now let us play #feesmustfall, and march on parliament.
No increase in fees. (This I actually agree with - the fee increase was well above inflation)
In fact, they must write off all the debt we've accumulated.
To make our voices heard, nationwide, we'll vandalise a few more statues (Port Elizabeth, Pretoria, Johannesburg) , run riot through the city centre (Cape Town), looting all the stalls, and burn down a few university buildings. (Univ of KwaZuluNatal)
Oh, and stone cars of passers-by. (Wits)
Next thing, we'll prevent our fellow students from writing their examinations! (Unic Western Cape, Cape Peninsula University of Technology) They have no choice... we have decreed it. Freedom of choice? what is that?
Looting the university's kiosk and print shop - and legging it with the computers - is also a good idea. (Fort Hare)
Now, I may be talking out of my backside, but as a South African taxpayer - and somebody in the media business - I may know slightly more than somebody sitting in Britain reading this in the Guardian.
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Is South Afrikaans still allowed in your country? I like to listen sometimes to the boers accents.
Students should be rebels and not scared to have controversial opinions.All our European history is covered in bloodshed but we are the adventurous good guys.
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Afrikaans is nog steeds 'n ampelike taal - een van elf - Dutchie.
Maar baie van die mense glo dat Afrikaans is 'n taal van oppressie, en daarvoor wil dit nie praat nie, of daarmee geleer word.
*Afrikaans is still an official language - one of 11 - in South Africa. But many people believe it to be a language of oppression, and therefore will not speak it, nor be taught in it.*
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>> *Afrikaans is still an official language - one of 11 - in South Africa. But
>> many people believe it to be a language of oppression, and therefore will not speak
>> it, nor be taught in it.*
Bearing in mind the history that's not a wholly unreasonable viewpoint.
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Fine, Bromp.
Let us just wipe out the language of communication for many COLOURED (ie mixed race) folk.
My missus, of mixed race, who was denied the franchise up until 1994, speaks Afrikaans as a home language. Surprised? Yeah, because you were led by the nose, and didn't research the facts.
I suggest you actually spend some time in Africa, before you start spouting absolute toss and offering 'solutions'.
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>> Fine, Bromp.
>> Let us just wipe out the language of communication for many COLOURED (ie mixed race)
>> folk.
>> I suggest you actually spend some time in Africa, before you start spouting absolute toss
>> and offering 'solutions'.
Jeez you're touchy/defensive. I said nothing of wiping it out. Merely that seeing it as the language of the oppressor - in apartheid days - was not an unreasonable view.
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>> Jeez you're touchy/defensive. I said nothing of wiping it out. Merely that seeing it as
>> the language of the oppressor - in apartheid days - was not an unreasonable view.
Do you mean all of them, most of them, some of them, or a minority of them?
I find it ironic that those who are quick to shout 'ist'.... and highlight the fact (rightly) that we should not lump all in the same boat... then readily do so themselves when it suits.
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>> I like to listen sometimes to the boers accents.
>>
I detest and despise the Boer/Afrikaans/South African accent. Whenever I hear it, it reminds me of the appalling apartheid regime.
What arrogant pigs those people were!
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Yep.
Everyone was an apartheid supporter, Dunc.
Come visit one day.
21 years on, they still blame apartheid. That is why I live behind an 8 ft wall, with burglar bars and security gates.
Not racism at all... just that the ruling party does nothing to curb the crime rate.
In fact, 21 years on, any time a corrupt or incompetent minister or public official is exposed, the shout of 'RACIST! Apartheid!' goes up.
The taxpayers re getting very sick of it.
The masses - who mostly live on grants and crime - don't care.
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>> The masses - who mostly live on grants and crime - don't care.
Hey it could be worse, you only have to peek over the northern border to zim..........
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>> Hey it could be worse, you only have to peek over the northern border to
>> zim..........
>>
The country that really ought to be the garden of Africa, with a load of decent tourism revenue bunged in...yet....?
Colonialism had its faults, some of them fairly major...yet..... is what has happened since been any better for the average joe?
Do the people that rule these places now do it for the common man? Do they have a welfare system and plenty of medical care, roads, infrastructure, peace, etc.....nope.
For the record, I didn't like apartheid in SA, there should be no such thing as a second class citizen... however, the greedy, corrupt, inefficient mob there now are worse, because they are letting the whole country go down the pan, which means they will not be able to afford to look after those that need it...even if they wanted to.
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>> I didn't like apartheid in SA
The temptation is/was to think that the social difficulties in South Africa are;
1) White vs. non-White
2) Could be easily solved with enforced law & order.
It is unbelievably complicated.
Even the value or otherwise of colonialism is complex, yet many of the "benefits" as we see them were largely by products of the colonialists using a country and a people as they wanted to and for their own benefit.
Also, we may feel that by our standards it was better when we were in control, but even if that was the case, it was at the expense of others freedom and right of self-determination.
Its a basket case, and its likely to stay that way for some time to come. And the best thing we can do is keep our colonial noses out.
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>> Its a basket case, and its likely to stay that way for some time to
>> come. And the best thing we can do is keep our colonial noses out.
Its growing pains. As colonial or governing powers we didn't really prepare the ground for change. We hung on too long, often in the wrong way, so change had to come quickly, sudden change like this is never healthy.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 24 Dec 15 at 21:05
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>> I'm not trying to support anything - Smith regime or apartheid or anything else; how
>> dare you try to suggest what I wrote was supporting a racist regime. I am
>> merely pointing out that these are historical facts.
They're not historical facts but rather trite assumptions which were of trotted out by UK supporters of Smith and apartheid. For clarity I didn't mean to imply that you were in that group. It's difficult to find examples of countries in Africa, the Caribbean or South America that were not colonised. The two obvious examples in Africa though are Liberia and Ethiopia difficult to say they're different from those that were. Neither's inhabitants live in mud huts
SA's geographical position and mineral wealth could have been exploited by other means.
I'd also point out that calling for removal of Rhodes statue in his UK alma mater is one thing.
In SA, where many see him as the father of apartheid, it is another altogether.
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>> I'd also point out that calling for removal of Rhodes statue in his UK alma mater is one thing.
>> In SA, where many see him as the father of apartheid, it is another altogether.
What's done is done though. As you say given the history, it's understandable that some take a strongly ideological position. But for those not directly concerned, it seems an error to try to whitewash or blackwash history. God knows there's been enough of that throughout recorded time. We really ought to have grown out of it by now.
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"In SA, where many see him as the father of apartheid, it is another altogether."
Brompto, I really think you are talking out of your anus here. You know nothing whatsoever about the situation.
wavala ubuso bakho
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>> Brompto, I really think you are talking out of your anus here. You know nothing
>> whatsoever about the situation.
>> wavala ubuso bakho
As above. Touchy and defensive.
There is an historic line - messing with the franchise etc - that can be seen to link Rhodes to Vorster etc. I don't need to have lived in SA to hold that view.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 24 Dec 15 at 21:02
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Perhaps not; but I might hesitate if an in-country journalist told me, an out of country newspaper reader, that I had misunderstood.
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>> Perhaps not; but I might hesitate if an in-country journalist told me, an out of
>> country newspaper reader, that I had misunderstood.
Not just a newspaper reader Mark. I have actually read a little history.
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I am sure you have Bromp, but you might notice I used the word "me".
And in any case, the point is a pretty solid one, whatever you've read. Especially given the reliability of history books in hindsight.
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>> I am sure you have Bromp, but you might notice I used the word "me".
I that case I misunderstood, reading "me" in the 'if I were you' sense.
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Let me start again because I probably wasn't very clear and for once meant no criticism....
Personally, even if I thought I knew about something or had studied it, if someone "on the ground" as it were, contradicted me it would give me significant pause for thought.
Also, I've listened to Ian's opinions over the last 16 years or so, in here, in there and in email and stuff, he's normally pretty close to reality. IMHO.
And with all of that is the absolute certainty that the African continent, the south of that continent and in particular south Africa is such a complex thing that history books are unlikely to cover it on their own.
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And if he'd told me why I was wrong about Rhodes/Apartheid I might have paused for thought.
Similarly, on the Afrikaans point, I fully understand that for complex historical reasons it's not a language unique to those with silky white skins.
Agree he's close to reality on many subjects. On this one though he strikes me as defensive and touchy
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>> defensive and touchy
Or feels strongly about something and is faced by someone he believes to be wrong and ill informed.
"defensive and touchy" seems usually to be an accusation thrown by someone who is actually on the defensive and being touchy.
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>> Or feels strongly about something and is faced by someone he believes to be wrong
>> and ill informed.
If he thinks I'm wrong ill informed he can (Rhodes/apartheid) say why/present alternative instead of being mildly offensive.
I'm neither defensive nor touchy but would like the alternative perspective,
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And history is what its all about. People should never be too keen or radical to erase or expunge their past history, if its good history, its a constant reminder of humanity standards, or if its not or a warning of where not to go.
I intensely dislike the rewriting of history. Trouble is its difficult to differentiate between valid analysis or revisionism.
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>>I intensely dislike the rewriting of history
The mistake is to regard history books as necessarily books of fact as opposed to works of subjective representation.
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>> There is an historic line - messing with the franchise etc - that can be
>> seen to link Rhodes to Vorster etc. I don't need to have lived in SA
>> to hold that view.
>>
No.
But the majority of those who DO live here haven't got a clue who Rhodes was. Or what he did, good and bad.
Strangely, the greatest South Africa ever, Madiba himself, had no qualms about embracing the Rhodes trust, to form the mandelarhodes foundation.
A Mandela Rhodes Scholarship provides full funding for up to a maximum of two years of postgraduate study for an African citizen under 30 years of age.[1] The award is open to all African citizens under the age of 30 years and recipients must study towards Honours or Masters Degrees at recognised South African institutions.
As we've witnessed this year, the #rhodesmustfall campaign led to numerous other protests. Some very valid - the fees issue - and others absolutely spurious.
Meanwhile, the economy is tanking, the rand is worth peanuts, Jacob Zuma is spending moeny we don't have of fripperies, the government is in bad with the Chinese - who'll make Rhodes and Starr-Jameson look like saints! - and unemployment is at a record level.
Yet we still have this bombast about colonialism and capitalism and all the other rhetoric from a bunch of students who weren't even around when apartheid was dismantled.
Unfortunately, they are queering the pitch for everyone who follows on later.
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>>wavala ubuso bakho
Which is quite polite. He could have said, "haikona wena voetsek".
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Or given that his wife speaks Afrikaans;
Jaan kak in die mielies.
I love that the swear filter is ignoring me.
p.s. Apologies for screwing up at least two languages, but it has been a long time.
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>> They're not historical facts but rather trite assumptions which were of trotted out by UK
>> supporters of Smith and apartheid. For clarity I didn't mean to imply that you were
>> in that group.
Really? You said that either I fell for Smith's narrative, or I was a troll, remember. No implication required. This is what you wrote:
>>"That's the narrative used 40yrs ago to support the Smith regime and then and later
>>apartheid. I'd guess your intelligent and educated enough not to actually swallow it and
>>that in reality you're trolling."
Not the first time you've offended somebody on this thread from your small-minded, nasty, leftist approach to life where everybody but the leftist is regarded, by those in his glorious position of having won the lottery of life*, as being wrong in all respects.
*To misquote the great Rhodes.
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Apparently one of the lies told was that the natives were still living in mud huts.
I drove past many thousands of those 'lies' recently, up in rural KZN.
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Wattle-and-daub houses are very practical and more or less free. Cattle dung is sometimes added to the daub to make it stickier and sweeter-smelling (really). Of course when dried it makes a good fuel for small economical cooking fires.
Roofs are traditionally thatch, but nowadays very often corrugated iron which has some advantages.
There are many sorts of 'mud hut' though, and I've only seen one or two.
Actually Tamanrasset in the far south of Algeria is more or less a mud town, seen from the air especially.
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>> Wattle-and-daub houses are very practical and more or less free.
I don't think many of us do nowadays, but there was a time when people in some parts of Britain lived in wattle-and-daub 'mud huts'.
We think of it as primitive and backward, a bit impoverished. But it isn't, it's a technology that has stood the test of time.
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I was driven from Tamanrasset to Assekrem, higher up in the Hoggar mountains, along 50 miles or so of rocky track in a lwb petrol Land Rover. The driver was officially introduced as belonging to Tamanrasset fire brigade, but he drove like a member of Algerian special forces which he probably was, sliding many bends in a masterly and controlled, but stylish manner. A memorable ride, all to see an old French Catholic priest who lived alone up there, but had two or three white-robed black Tuareg boys squatting on the edge of his roof like herons at rest the day we went there.
Tamanrasset is a dry Wilaya, although I think you can get wine with meals in the posh hotel. But of course a lot of hacks carry bottles, hip flasks and so on.
All my memories are very old and may well be out of date by now.
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>> I was driven from Tamanrasset to Assekrem,
With other hacks of course, it wasn't my enterprise at all. I was really only there on sufferance; the French or some of them were very bien introduits though and set it all up. Every now and then one is in the right place at the right time. It was my good fortune to be there when the president, Boumedienne, was making a much publicized visit to 'the South'. Boumedienne was an odd chap, a committed socialist and believing Muslim. He had a special relationship with the French press and addressed some of the hacks by name.
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>> two or three white-robed black Tuareg boys squatting on the edge of his roof like herons at rest the day we went there.
Tuaregs are pale-skinned, as white as I am. Black Tuaregs were known in the stridently socialist Algeria of my day as 'former slaves'. But actually things change slowly if at all in the depths of the Sahara, so the word 'former' was a bit of courteous encouragement rather than an actual description. I sometimes wonder how much things have changed there even now.
Sorry to go on but it's been bothering me.
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"Klass act..."
The chap is clearly a racist in the traditional sense of the word.
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The hilarity is that after his despicable 'protest' - and then posting all about it on social media - there has been an appeal for the lass who probably had to put up with his oikish behaviour all night, for no reward... R13K (about 600 quid) has been raised so far from social media users!
The area where the incident took place - Observatory - has always been 'neutral' ground. Because of the large influx of students back in the day, as well as its large industrial element, and proximity to Groote Schuur Hospital and a football stadium, it was 'mixed race' and liberal even during the apartheid years.
Still considered the most bohemian of Cape suburbs.
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>> Klass act...
>>
>> www.iol.co.za/news/politics/we-give-tip-when-you-return-the-land-2016063
So one thing he learned in Oxford was to ape the behaviour of the Bullingdon boys and their ilk?
:-P
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>> So one thing he learned in Oxford was to ape the behaviour of the Bullingdon
>> boys and their ilk?
>>
>> :-P
Indeed.
But two wrongs don't make a right, and he is just showing his ignorance and - dare I say it? - true colours. Obviously an angry young man, with serious reverse-race issues.
It seems he is just riding on the tiger of his own creation - wants to be 'noticed' but goes about it in a way which garners very little support from anyone except his cronies and like-minded rabble.
He's done the #RMF cause a power of no good. And that is very sad, as the perception of late had been that the movement was starting to get a message across, especially on fees, accomodation, campus safety etc
So some white girl cried? Talk about punishing the daughters for the sins of the fathers...
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>> So some white girl cried? Talk about punishing the daughters for the sins of the
>> fathers...
>>
... and who is to say her father/grandfather committed any 'sins'?
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..and James Delingpole comments.
Link to Breitbart.
Quite funny in parts, IMO, but I'm just un-PC!
tinyurl.com/ht4mp4w
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History can't be altered by tearing down statues. I'm pretty miffed that Henry V111 demolished the Great Abbey at Bury St Edmunds, but I wouldn't demand that his statue be torn down from the gate above Trinity College.
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Good lad Henry. Kicked the catholic church in the butt, and left us some fine palaces and deer parks round these parts.
< waves the flag YAY HENERY >
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 29 Jan 16 at 10:22
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Henry VIII died a Catholic.
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No, he was excommunicated by the Pope. Probably true to say that his personal beliefs remained Catholic throughout his life. He was responsible for the persecution of a number of protestants. As a tyrant Henry was probably the most egocentric, narcissistic and cruellest king we ever had. Thoroughly nasty piece of work.
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>> No, he was excommunicated by the Pope. Probably true to say that his personal beliefs
>> remained Catholic throughout his life. He was responsible for the persecution of a number of
>> protestants. As a tyrant Henry was probably the most egocentric, narcissistic and cruellest king we
>> ever had. Thoroughly nasty piece of work.
< YAY HENERY > waves flags
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 29 Jan 16 at 12:03
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I think you wohu.d have been a bit too outspoken for Henry. Languishing in the Tower by now contemplating your fate I should think.
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"He was responsible for the persecution of a number of protestants. As a tyrant Henry was probably the most egocentric, narcissistic and cruellest king we ever had. Thoroughly nasty piece of work."
So, CG, do you think that we should leave his statue in place at Trinity? We could always point at it and say that 'he was probably the most egocentric etc ................... and what's more, he upset Haywain by demolishing the Great Abbey .....'
It is said that we should 'learn from history' - there will be no history if we destroy it; that is what ISIL is up to.
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>> Henry VIII died a Catholic.
Indeed, but not a Roman Catholic.
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>> Next target in Cape Town ?
>> The Rhodes Memorial
>> newinkspot.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/6a00d4141ce4d16a4700cd972e10614cd5.jpg
>>
Lot of attacks and rapes there the past few days. Also, they lopped the statue's nose off a few months back.
BUT - and this is sinister:
www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/attempt-to-cut-down-rhodes-statue-foiled-20160127
An unidentified group of people attempted to cut down the Cecil John Rhodes statue in Cape Town's Company's Garden on Wednesday.
DA ward councillor Dave Bryant confirmed on Twitter that the group tried to cut down the statue with an angle grinder.
Three security guards told 2oceansvibe that they initially thought the group was there to do maintenance on the statue, as they were wearing construction clothes, but stopped them as soon as they jumped onto the statue and tried to cut it down.
IOL reports that the statue only sustained minor damage to one leg.
In other news, I read in the Torygraph then the donations to Oriel have dried up - to the tune of a hundred million quid - following their pantywaist handling of the issue...
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>> I read in the Torygraph then the donations to Oriel have dried up - to the tune of a hundred million quid - following their pantywaist handling of the issue...
Students and faculty were both divided on Rhodes and imperialism generally. The piece on it in the Telegraph was a disgrace, thoroughly confused, appallingly written and ultimately meaningless.
As others have said or implied, the division is between those with some sense of history and those who don't begin to understand it and imagine it can be adjusted at any time to reflect current, yuck, 'concerns'.
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>> those with some sense of history and those who don't begin to understand it and imagine it can be adjusted at any time to reflect current, yuck, 'concerns'.
One shouldn't be too surprised by these pushy ignorant undergraduates. Another piece in today's comic alleged that current university intakes are unable to add, subtract or multiply, or to decipher a long, challenging text.
It's easy to exaggerate in old colonel style, but there's a worrying edge of probability there. Remembering what my fellow students were like. And what I was like. Don't look, don't look!
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>> Another piece in today's comic alleged that current university intakes are unable to add, subtract or multiply, or to decipher a long, challenging text.
That was one of the factors that led me to kick the teaching habit two decades ago, although not one that was the student's fault; it is the way they were educated up to that point. However a personal failing was the sheer lack of grace that pervaded them and I found them very unrewarding to deal with.
The kinds of places I worked in were not yet universities but an up-to-date picture of those is presented in a cracking good essay in the LRB of 21 January. In "Who are the spongers now?"
Stefan Collini compares the traditional model of a university as a place where "the search for deeper and wider understanding takes precedence over all more immediate goals" that is giving place to an instrumental one aimed at improvement of the economy. He notes that a recent green paper opens the door for non-teaching bodies to establish universities and posits EasyUni, run by the firm of Cramme, Chargem and Skimpe and offering Quick n' Cheap degrees.
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I've worked alongside and under if that is the right phrase with people with degrees.The Engineering people where good and usually down to earth the ones I've met.
Some of the others with degrees wouldn't listen or take any advice from somebody without a degree.Cost the company I've was employed by plenty of money with some of their ideas and decisions with didn't make any sense regarding the job what had to be done.
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I don't know if this has yet penetrated university drama groups, but it seem the Guardian has accused The Bard of sexism, as he gave only a minority of speeches to women in his plays. I don't now what cognisance the paper gave to the fact that the parts would in any case have to be played by male actors originally, but what about the serious religious bias revealed in his play casting a Venetian of Middle Eastern origin as a murderer?
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In those times, female parts were often taken by pre-pubescent boys. Good chance a kiss in Romeo and Juliet was between two boys.
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"In those times, female parts were often taken by pre-pubescent boys."
Correction: not "often"; "always". Whether the boys in question were pubescent or pre-pubescent is perhaps a technicality, but their voices needed to be able to mimic a woman's.
Women on the stage were unthinkable in Shakespeare's time.
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"... the Guardian has accused The Bard of sexism, as he gave only a minority of speeches to women in his plays. I don't now what cognisance the paper gave to the fact that the parts would in any case have to be played by male actors originally..."
This is garbled. It may be an instance of sexism that Shakespeare gave his women characters less to say than his male ones. The reasons for it are that contemporary society was endemically slanted in favour of men and expected to hear less from women than from men, so the imbalance is authentic; also, as women's parts were acted by boys, the question of stamina perhaps comes into this also.
It is remarkable, however, that Shakespeare created a host of memorable women characters - many of them emotionally powerful. Who can forget Portia's plea for mercy in The Merchant of Venice (more of that anon), Ophelia's madness in Hamlet, and so on?
"... what about the serious religious bias revealed in his play casting a Venetian of Middle Eastern origin as a murderer?"
Much discussed. When I taught for GCSE and directed a performance of the play in question at the school where I was Head of English, I had a long discussion with some Jewish parents about the wisdom and propriety of doing so. My justification was and still is that the play is a damn good one and that Shakespeare was reflecting the views of his time, unpalatable though they seem to us.
But what is remarkable about his depiction of Shylock is the way he is shown to be entirely human, not some stereotypical alien species, despite the marginalisation of Jews in many contemporary European societies. He has all the faults and virtues of any man, including justified resentment at his treatment by Gentiles and his thirst for revenge. It is possible to present him as a figure the audience can identify with, and see as a victim, especially when he is forced to convert to Christianity, and not a monster.
In the production I directed, a Jewish boy auditioned for both the role of Shylock and for Antonio, the man from whom Shylock demands his pound of flesh (and therefore death). A Gentile did likewise. I gave the part of Shylock to the Gentile and Antonio to the Jewish boy. The latter coached the former in mannerisms and other details as the rehearsals proceeded. It was a very good production (even though I say it myself) and utterly memorable for many reasons.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Sun 1 May 16 at 17:14
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>> I don't know if this has yet penetrated university drama groups, but it seem the
>> Guardian has accused The Bard of sexism,
Do you have a link? Quite a bit on G's website about specific pieces, particularly The Taming of the Shrew. Little if any is recent though.
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I was quoting this from Michael Deacon's piece on p. 22 of Saturday's Telegraph, which does not mention specific plays:
"Only 17% of speeches in Shakespeare's plays are by women," declared the Guardian last week. "Shakespeare may have been widely championed as a visionary but this description cannot be applied to his record on gender equality."
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Although it could also be argued that Bill the bard was writing at a time when it was still possible for men to get a word in edgeways...it's not that I don't speak to my wife, I just don't like to interrupt...
;-)
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>> Remembering what my fellow students were like. And what I was like. Don't look,
>> don't look!
>>
The thing to remember is that young people and students partcularly are nothing if not conventional. It's only the old who rebel and flout conventions, think independently, and value the freedom to do so.
In my day one desperately wanted to conform to what one's fellows did, wore, spoke, etc, and I don't see that that has changed, only what they are conventional about. As has been often said, education is wasted on the young.
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By "murderer" I was thinking of Othello rather than Shylock and of course in this instance a Guardianista could criticise Shakespeare for racialism as well. There is a classic quotation to cover this sort of nonsense, to the effect that you can't apply the standards of the present to the past; does anyone have the source?
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>> you can't apply the standards
>> of the present to the past; does anyone have the source?
>>
Not quite the source, but a similar idea:
'The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.' (LP Hartley: The Go-Between)
But that's not quite so easy to apply, because we generally assume a right to intervene in other countries if we don't approve of their customs.
And of course we do intervene in the past too - we re-write history to reflect the slant we now wish to put on it.
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In historical circles it is known as presentism. Judging historical persons or events by current day standards and norms.
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tinyurl.com/jh3umx2
White privilege, or something.
Or more 'you despicable creep - here's the backlash'.
Our hero of the gig is very quiet since his 'white tears' nonsense.
By the way, R130K is a shedload of money here.
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As written above, the guy was just acting the prique, and out for an argument, hence his references to the transgender companion. A LOT of stirring.
BUT on the other side we have morons like this...
tinyurl.com/zqjgj8j
At 26 years old, he would have been a nipper when we first voted in a demographic election.
Also, had said election not happened, South African teams would not have been allowed to compete internationally, and it would have been a mastubatory competition in cricket, rugby, athletics etc. "We will play with ourselves".
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So no love lost between whites and blacks in S Africa.Has S.A moved on after kicking the whites out? Or is it what goes round comes round.
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>>In historical circles it is known as presentism.
Thanks for that useful handle on the topic, CGNorwich.
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tinyurl.com/hdp4adp
And here we go again... common assault.
Qwabe added that‚ when the student refused to comply‚ he used his “protest stick†which he carries around for “cultural purposes†to push the phone out of the student’s hand.
“He picked it up and continued to video‚ at which point I came closer to him and told him to switch it the f*** off.
“He then kindly put it back onto his pocket and that was that‚†the post said.
“There is no story here‚ and I'm definitely not about to further engage the white media's meek attempts to found one!
“If anything‚ we should put the white media on perpetual voicemail and not take anything it says on the student movement seriously! Rather rely on firsthand accounts of those on the ground. Otherwise bye‚†Qwabe added.
...
Meanwhile, campuses torched, stones thrown, protesters arrested.
What's the issue - fee increase.
Government has no money - despite spending squillions on a new presidential jet.
Last edited by: Ian (Cape Town) on Thu 22 Sep 16 at 12:23
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Current example around naming of Halls at Liverpool Uni:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/16/liverpool-university-gladstone-name-building-slavery
Mrs B was in said hall during her first year c40 years ago.
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Just think, if Alisha Raithatha forebears had not been enslaved, she wouldn't be a student in the west, and there would have been no money to found the university. Better that she gains from her forebears sacrifice?
Wouldn't it be a better idea, to keep the name as is, as a reminder about past misdeeds rather than bury it and forget it?
Strange old world init.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 16 Nov 17 at 17:33
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>> Just think, if Alisha Raithatha forebears had not been enslaved, she wouldn't be a student
>> in the west,
>>
No, the flourishing African civilisations that the west destroyed would by now be beacons of culture and learning, and poor British students would be competing for Raithatha Scholarships.
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Article on PC attitudes in universities - Armel Coussine
