Train companies, that is. Trying to travel from Aylesbury to Exeter - the train line says £94. Except that the standard prices are £15 for the first bit, £2.30 for the tube, and £47 for the next.
So somewhere in there they're randomly adding on £28 and not showing it in the fare breakdown. And it's not just TTL, since National Rail Enquires does exactly the same thing.
Other countries don't have this problem - who's creaming off the £28 and where is it going?
Have given my dad a printout of the individual ticket prices and told him to buy them at the stations.
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>>Other countries don't have this problem
What makes you say this with such certainty? Do you think that other countries do not have sophisticated ticketing machinery?
I'm pretty sure that I've seen tickets from Paris to Marseille cheaper than Paris to Lyon, for all that they're using the same train. [Waits to get shot down for mis-remembering routes. But it was something like that anyway.]
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>> So somewhere in there they're randomly adding on £28 and not showing it in the
>> fare breakdown. And it's not just TTL, since National Rail Enquires does exactly the same
>> thing.
What you are suggesting is called split ticketing. A now commonly tactic, caused because you are dealing with two train companies (chiltern and GW) who have to buy tickets off each other. The tube is a whole different authority, and you could never get main line / tube through fares in the days of nationalised railways.
>> Other countries don't have this problem - who's creaming off the £28 and where is
>> it going?
they do.
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It's common. There's even an app for it. Tickety Split I think it's called.
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The only other country in Europe that seems willing to rip off travellers is Belgium (and poss Switzerland, but they're keener on overcharging tourists). Based on personal experience, of course, but having just travelled from northern Czech to Vienna airport for less than £20, I can't help but think we're doing it wrong.
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UK is quite an exception where driving is often cheaper than taking the train - especially when you compare the cost of 2 or more people travelling together.
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>>UK is quite an exception
Do you have facts to back up this assertion?
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>> UK is quite an exception where driving is often cheaper than taking the train -
>> especially when you compare the cost of 2 or more people travelling together.
I took the train around Italy, Naples / Rome / Florence / Venice - could have done it cheaper by car. The train however was more convenient.
I took a train from Verona to Milan, the car would have been cheaper, but the train was WAY WAY more convenient.
Its an experience worth paying for, everyone should use the local public transport when abroad, it makes for immersion in the whole country persona.
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I am talking for a resident where cost of travel in a car would be marginal compared to a tourist who don't have an option but to take a train.
Fuel price is often higher in UK compared to other countries but train fare elsewhere is far cheaper. If you look at developing counties (OK, not a like for like comparison but still) train fare is several times cheaper than cost of driving.
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And if you look at the cost of getting to the moon, then car is always cheaper (OK, not a like for like comparison but still)
Oh. That wasn't worth writing was it.
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OK, here are some like for like analysis
www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.VmgkcfnMxdg
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11043893/Rail-fare-hike-Britain-vs-rest-of-Europe.html
You make your own conclusion.
PS: Cost of HS2 is likely to exceed that of sending man to moon :o)
Last edited by: movilogo on Wed 9 Dec 15 at 12:58
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So the comic claims it's more expensive, whereas the Man in Seat 61 points out that UK train fares are generally cheaper than anywhere else. www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.VmgkcfnMxdg
Moreover, London to Sheffield is a trip between the capital city and the 'Northern Powerhouse'. Every long-distance train journey in Britain (except to Wales or the West Country) goes along that (or a parallel) route owing to the shape of the country. Nuremberg to Kassel is scarcely comparable as it's a meander round the middle of a big, round country. Likewise Paris to Dijon (at least it goes to the capital city). So you'd expect UK rail fares to be higher than abroad.
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>> I am talking for a resident where cost of travel in a car would be
>> marginal compared to a tourist who don't have an option but to take a train.
Cost is Cost - the price is the price. In fact the fares i got were cheaper than locals because they were booked here, and it was still dearer than traveling by car.
>> Fuel price is often higher in UK compared to other countries
The fuel price was local prices.
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everyone should use the local public transport when abroad...
It certainly creates memories a taxi ride wouldn't. The same is true of a moderate amount of getting lost, and I've done both, even on business trips. And I love the ´Έξοδος´ signs on the Athens Metro.
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>> everyone should use the local public transport when abroad...
>> It certainly creates memories a taxi ride wouldn't.
Yes. Had some memorable trips in country buses and even lorries in Africa.
Arduous though, and tiring. Africans are tough but considerate and welcoming. They can see you aren't used to rough travel and make allowances as a rule being decent humane folk (there are exceptions of course).
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FF.
Could you drive your Father to Oxford from where there is an hourly service at XX:01 to Exeter St Davids with a single change at Reading?
Fare seems to be £41.50 off peak single. Probably cheaper if you split the journey and/or commit to a train specific ticket on the Reading to Exeter segment. Journey time 2:05 to 2:20
Does Ferret Snr have a railcard?
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Should be clear that my objection here is not to the price of tickets (which is a whole new argument) but that the cost of individual tickets is so much less than that of a single ticket covering the whole route.
That *doesn't* happen outside the UK and still no one seems to know where my missing £30 has gone.
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This thread hasn't drifted much, so...
Fursty, to ask the question for you I guess Airlines have the same issue, if I get a ticket from, say, Glasgow to London, to Houston and finally to Austin and back again (which I did o one occasion about 30 years ago) how many tickets do I have, all separately issued? or do I have 1 huge multi sheeted ticket from 1 airline and what are the cost implications.
You dont have to have an exact answer but how would that sort of situation work?
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But airline is not same as train.
Many cases people are forced to use trains e.g. commuting to London. Here people have no choice. All such commuting routes are monopoly by train operating companies.
With airlines if it is a holiday you can either fly on a different date or use alternate airlines. If flying for a business trip, claim on expenses.
Most countries calculate fare as = distance * unit cost basis, because of that fare does not drastically change how early you buy ticket. But UK it is what they can squeeze out of passengers.
This is why on the day ticket prices are horrendous (they don't change that much based on links I provided in earlier posts in this thread).
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>> But airline is not same as train.
>>
>> Many cases people are forced to use trains e.g. commuting to London. Here people have
>> no choice. All such commuting routes are monopoly by train operating companies.
About half of rail fares are directly regulated, including all season tickets, for precisely that reason.
You can't run competing trains on the same track very easily or efficiently.
Many markets will deliver better results for users over time if they are regulated to a degree anyway. Bus deregulation has been tried with disastrous (but hilarious) results. There was a time when you could hardly move for buses in Sheffield, racing each other to the next stop sometimes, and many spewing out thick smoke because the operators in cut-throat competition couldn't afford decent ones.
Standard fares have risen ahead of inflation, by design, for most of the last 15 years or so. The government engineered fares to rise ahead of RPI to bear down on the costs paid by the taxpayer. At the same time, customers (passengers) have got better at shopping around and many off-peak and especially advance booking fares have actually fallen, even as revenues and passengers numbers have increased (I think).
The train companies can't teach the airlines much about revenue maximisation. Both are essentially fixed cost businesses, trains more so because fuel costs are lower, so it is about collecting the maximum amount of income for the services operated. If that means apparently irrational fare comparisons, then that's what they will do, as FF will know very well.
The extra £30 must end up with the TOCs, who knows how they share it out.
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Problem with trains is that they are regulated have to run a timetable set by HM gov. This means running empty or more or less empty trains for most of the day, trains that make no money.
Take my London Service. The 07:30 is the second most crowded train in the country, the next 4 up to 08:20 are variously full, with the ones reaching the last peak fare getting more and more empty. The first two cheap rate trains are again full with the ole retired gits like me, and then trains are empty till the rush hour kicks off again in the evening.
Most of the trains spend most of their time sitting around in sidings.
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>> Most of the trains spend most of their time sitting around in sidings.
In that case there's an interesting contrast between South West Trains and London Midland where it's a long time since I travelled on an empty off peak train. They do though have an extra facility over an above offering very cheap off peak fares. Over the duration of their franchise they have been able to develop the Birmingham-Euston via Northampton (and London-Crewe) service and abstract price sensitive travellers from Virgin.
Some of the off peak offers are incredible value - £10 single from Liverpool to Northampton. With his railcard discount the The Lad gets that down to £6.60. Admittedly it's a 3 hr schlep via Brum compared to options at around 2hrs involving Stafford and/or Rugby changes for £20+ but even without the card discount it's less than the fuel cost of a car journey.
There are three or four 12 car formations stabled at Euston upside during the day but the rest of the available fleet seems to be diagrammed all day.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 10 Dec 15 at 07:57
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>> There are three or four 12 car formations stabled at Euston upside during the day
>> but the rest of the available fleet seems to be diagrammed all day.
>
Just a quick check of LM's diagrams reveals for just one location, London Euston, there are 30 empty coaching stock movements to sidings during the day.
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>> Just a quick check of LM's diagrams reveals for just one location, London Euston, there
>> are 30 empty coaching stock movements to sidings during the day.
Is there a website where one can view TOC's diagrams - general interest rather than x/checking what you say. My point remains though, LM with a combination of marketing and good fortune re trunk flows over a mainly commuter franchise have well filled daytime trains.
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Reminds me of my annual Florida trip a few years back - for once I went with BA (just to remind myself why I don't usually go BA!!). My buddy from Munich flew over, met me at Gatwick and did the UK -> US leg together. His two-legged return flight was considerably cheaper than my single leg. ISTR around €100, on a c. £400 flight.
How does that work then? :-)
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Taxes. We've just priced up a biking trip to the Southern States next year. £100.00 cheaper (each) to fly from Dublin than from Manchester. No-brainer.
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Don't think so, I believe his (direct) flights are usually more than mine. I guess it was justa short term pricing anomaly.
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>> Don't think so, I believe his (direct) flights are usually more than mine. I guess
>> it was justa short term pricing anomaly.
>>
No.
Folks used to buy Paris LHR JFK and bin the first bit.
Not legal so airlines watch for that sort of thing and hit hard.
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>> Don't think so, I believe his (direct) flights are usually more than mine. I guess
>> it was justa short term pricing anomaly.
Standard pricing. It costs you £400 to fly from UK to the US. But, they have some spare seats on the flight. So they encourage cheapskates from Germany to go via the UK rather than direct. In order to encourage them to do this, they have to make it €100 cheaper. Perfectly normal and (in this case) nothing to do with taxes. In RP's case, it might be or it might not, or it might be a combination of the two. But I suspect Ireland to the US will be more expensive than his ticket from the UK via Ireland.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 9 Dec 15 at 17:33
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I hate trains for different reasons. By tomorrow evening I will have travelled to and from Birmingham by train 4 times in the last two working weeks. 24 hours of my life I won't get back. Trains were fine. Passengers another matter. Got bumped to First Class on one trip which was as good as it got.
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>>if I get a ticket from, ... (which I did o one occasion about 30 years ago)
>>..... how many tickets do I have, all separately issued? or do I have 1 huge multi sheeted
>> ticket from 1 airline
>>
Tickets ? what are they?
In this electronic age you might get a printout of your itinerary and a CC slip.
If you do a separate booking for each leg and a connecting flight is delayed and you miss the connection then you start from "tough- buy another ticket ...
If you miss a connection you might even get further flights auto cancel.
It is favorite to book the lot on one booking.
Also if you have a simple return trip booked and do not turn up for the first part then you will usually find the return is auto cancelled ( evn if you bought an additional ticket for and earlier flight and travelled on it. Again TOUGH!!! - read the T & Cs!!!e
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>> That *doesn't* happen outside the UK and still no one seems to know where my
>> missing £30 has gone.
your £30 has gone nowhere, because you aint paying it.
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>> FF.
>>
>> Could you drive your Father to Oxford from where there is an hourly service at
>> XX:01 to Exeter St Davids with a single change at Reading?
Now the Bicester chord is in place he could go Aylsebury > Princess Risborough > Oxford > Reading
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Split ticketing often words in France too I have found especially when the journey involves a mixture of TGV and TER trains.
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It's not so much the trains I hate but other passengers. I would quite happily use the train if I could have the whole carriage to myself. The other day I was squeezed in between an over-weight and ugly woman and a youth who reeked of cannabis. It reminded me of my student days...
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Times they are a'changed I suppose, from when my wife used to commute from Hastings to Moorgate circa '87 until '92.
She made many friends on that daily journey, mostly other gals, which made it all bearable, they even held their Christmas parties on the train, each bringing an item of food or drink item to add to the social gathering.
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>> Now the Bicester chord is in place he could go Aylsebury > Princess Risborough >
>> Oxford > Reading
Isn't there still a missing link between the Chiltern terminus at Oxford Parkway and Oxford's main station?
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no?
the link is there, you can get trains from oxford to bicester.
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>> no?
>>
>> the link is there, you can get trains from oxford to bicester.
So far as I can tell there's a (a) a rail & bus connection between Bicester>Parkway>Oxford with fare of £3.50 (b) all rail alternative of routing via Banbury at an eye watering £16.
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No on checking it you are right, there is currently no pax service oxford to bicester town / bicester village. The link is open, there is a daily Acton Town TC to Oxford sidings engineers train, but no pax.
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Bicester <-> Oxford
www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-26173793
www.bicestertooxfordcollaboration.com/
So there should be trains now.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 11 Dec 15 at 11:25
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>> So there should be trains now.
As Zeddo agreed in end, they're running as far as the new Parkway station. The full service to Oxford's main station should start next year. IIRC there was more delay due to environmental and or NIMBY issues along the route forward from Parkway.
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>> >> So there should be trains now.
>>
>> As Zeddo agreed in end, they're running as far as the new Parkway station. The
>> full service to Oxford's main station should start next year. IIRC there was more delay
>> due to environmental and or NIMBY issues along the route forward from Parkway.
I can't think why, the link is extant and in daily use for freight. It is single line however and being doubled.
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I know what you mean FF......
I do a lot of travelling on trains between jobs and always come across the problem you mention and have quickly learned how to get round some of the problems so.....
a) Buy tickets in advance - often a lot cheaper (eg I did Edinburgh to Aberdeen for £8 - First Class!! Standard class was more expensive and I saved another £3.50 by having free coffee rather than a Costa coffee at Waverley Street)
b) Don't bother buying tickets at station, buy for each stage on-line and print out.
c) Make sure he has a Senior railcard - 30% off prices
d) Don't use Trainline for tickets - they charge for booking, only a quid or so but Cross-Country and various others don't charge. And Cross Country is usually cheaper than Virgin etc.
e) Look out for extra charges for using credit card rather than debit card (might only be a quid)
f) Some lines/areas are always very expensive and some stations very expensive to get out of - eg Reading on GWR, Hull, MK to Northampton is about £12 for 30 mins on train whereas today I spent an hour from Cannock to Solihull - £4.05).
f) Ticketty-Split claims to get cheaper prices by splitting tickets but doesn't always do the job. eg I had to get from Honiton (I think) to Bristol, Ticketty Split said it couldn't be done, ticket office in Honiton said it would be £32. I then asked for tickets from Honiton to Taunton, Taunton to Bristol (or something like that) and it worked out at £16. So go on Tinternet and have a look.
g) Try a different route. Was deadended in High Wycombe last week needing to get back to E Midlands. National Rail site said £63 - go back to London then train north. But, train to Birmingham and then to E Midlands was £27 + £12 and it took less time and no tube fare in the middle!
Sorry, far longer than I anticipated!
P
And here's another bit. Friend who lives in SW France wanted to go to Prague for winter market/see Prague etc. Was half the price for him to fly to London then to Prague than fly direct.
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I like them less than I used to.
It's nearly 10 years since I started doing the 3 day a week commute between Reading (Earley) and Bath, and for more than 9 of those I could get advance/split tickets which kept the cost down to about £25 per journey, or 15p per mile for the 165 mile round trip. Not bad.
But the cheap trains have gradually been getting later and harder to come by. Finally, after a great month when the cheapest train was a first class service, and then the £10 singles offer, I'm left with a service that doesn't get to Bath until 10am, and costs £42. In other words, my commute costs have jumped up about £200 per month, and for that I'm having to share a virtually full carriage instead of the nice empty ones on the earlier services I used to get.
Which is one of the reasons we're planning to move next year.
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Last two weeks involved the four trips to Birmingham - 0618 from Bangor to Crewe (Virgin) and then the 0830 from Crewe to Birmingham with London Midland arriving at Birmingham New Street at 9.15. We left BNS at 1717 with Virgin, changed at Crewe to arrive back at Bangor at 2028. Very efficient clean services all, despite being delayed at New Street we seemed to be on time everywhere else. Not too crowded either. Figured out over the four days we had spent 24 hours travelling. Finished a crap book I'd been reading for a few weeks, read two editions of Private Eye, four copies of the Evening Standard and drank loads of mediocre coffee and survived on dreadful fast food. Chilling today hopefully never ro darken NS's platforms ever again. In fairness they've done a marvellous job of New Street station. Looks like a giant shiny spaceship has landed in the grubby streets of Brum.
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Birmingham is the only city in Britain where people willingly pay a substantial motorway toll to get past it more quickly...
;-)
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>> Birmingham is the only city in Britain where people willingly pay a substantial motorway toll
>> to get past it more quickly...
Gladly too.
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I hate trains - Mapmaker
