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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 16 Nov 15 at 01:01
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Well done for spotting this quickly, but more info needs to emerge before the forum can chew it up ?
I suspect this will be significant, and probably relevant to us .. tune in to the early news tomorrow .... ?
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State of emergency declared. All borders closed with immediate effect.
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Awful!
Thoughts are with our French cousins!
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>> Awful!
>> Thoughts are with our French cousins!
Yes. And let's maintain proper security, hard and constant work.
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Curfew announced in Paris and all borders closed.
Several locations hit including the Stad De France where a friendly international between France and Germany was being played and the President was there!
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Sounds like a massacre has happened at the concert hall. The authorities really ought not play the waiting game, there is no way that most of the extremists who are usually at the bottom of this kind of atrocity are going to wait patiently then talk with police negotiators. They just need to go in fast and hard. There is always the possibility of collateral damage but that could be a better option than than letting the nutters do their thing.
American Airlines have said they aren't flying to France till situation is clearer.
France has had more than it deserved this year. I feel so sorry for those who were just on a good Friday night out and got involved, and their families.
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Can someone on here explain why France (and Paris) has been more of a target than anywhere else recently?
It sounds like a massacre at the concert hall. Storming it might have been a risk..... risking a glass attack Russian style might have been an option.
Don't know what to say apart from 'Jihadi' John had too nice an ending if he was indeed got.
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>> Can someone on here explain why France (and Paris) has been more of a target
>> than anywhere else recently?
>>
Paris and France in general has a high middle eastern population based on their former colonies.
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I know that but that explanation implies many things....
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I am in shock for several reasons. I spend a lot of time in France and while I don't know the band who played at the death metal concert, I do know one of the band members and I if it had been in the UK it is likely a lot of my friends could have been at this concert.
From facebook sources it looks like Muslim extremists is the source of these attacks but only time will verify that (and the sources may well be wrong) . I am not sure if the borders are closed as such as it looks like it is business as usual on Eurostar although they are offering free exchanges.
I really feel sorry for the people of Paris. When my last trip to France went a bit wrong the French people helped me out so much despite me not really speaking much French they could not have helped me more. To me the French are our neighbours, our brothers and I feel more upset about these attacks than if it were in the America etc.
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'Elite forces' called in... oh dear.
The job of elite forces is to kill everyone in sight. All those casualties give me a very bad feeling.
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>>'Elite forces' called in
Little option - soon after news broke the reports from the theatre were 20 dead and perhaps 60 taken hostage.
It would be safe to assume at that point that the hostages had 0.0% chance of release so the sanest option was eradication of the hostage takers and accept the inevitability of further deaths.
If I'd been in the hostage group I'd be wanting the SAS or their equivalent in asap rather than giving the terrorists time to dig-in/set up booby traps.
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rather than giving the terrorists time to dig-in/set up booby traps.
>>
Beslan springs to mind.
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>>I really feel sorry for the people of Paris. When my last trip to France went a bit wrong the French people helped me out so much despite me not really speaking much French they could not have helped me more. To me the French are our neighbours, our brothers and I feel more upset about these attacks than if it were in the America etc.
It is a little thing, but about 10 years ago I was on business to a client about 30 miles from St Etienne.
I took the Eurostar to Paris, the TGV to St Etienne and then the train to the nearest station to the client. Unfortunately there were two stations with very similar names and I got off at the wrong one, in a very pretty French village, with absolutely no taxis at the station.
I walked over to the local cafe and must have stood out like a sore thumb in my suit and laptop bag.
The locals were very friendly even though they mocked my poor French, there were no local Taxis but a local without delay got me in his Peugeot 503 and sailed me to my client.
It turned out he was the local mayor and was more than happy to help the hapless Anglais out and point blank refused to accept any money for the trip.
I like France, the French and yes they may seem odd at times (very odd) but they are very similar to us and what happens there can so easily happen here.
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>> I know that but that explanation implies many things....
Not really, its pretty simple.
1/ France has a lot of Muslims of North African descent because of the colonies there.
2/ Relations between them and the rest of main stream French society has always been bad, because of the history of how the French government governed, controlled, put down and killed the indigenous population within those colonies well into recent history.
3/ Muslims in France are generally not well accepted into society and have not prospered.
Given those three, you have a fertile, numerous and prodigious breeding ground for ISIS recruits and or followers.
Add to the fact that France is meddling militarily in the middle east, has a very poor intelligence service (used to be very good), that weapons are relatively easily available and the idiots at that really not very funny or amusing magazine C H continue to stir things up, you have what you have.
France will now want to retaliate. Due to their very poor intelligence service, their lack of integration with GCHQ and the US NIS and a national abhorrence of controlled patience they will be very poor at that as well. (Unlike the UK and yanks - see Jihadi John as an example)
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TBH I'd rather they had left Moh'd Emwazi alone, captured him, or eradicated him and kept quiet about it. Making a greater martyr of him by rowing about it isn't progress, and neither as NFM says does killing him and those with him without trial reinforce the west's moral ascendancy.
I don't think the events in France are a response to that, it will have been too long in the planning, but it has made further attacks more, not less, likely.
I doubt if the French special forces will take many prisoners.
Maybe this will make the authorities in Europe generally assess individual immigrants/asylum seekers more closely. In the UK, I wonder if we have just come a bit closer to having smart identity cards.
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>> TBH I'd rather they had left Moh'd Emwazi alone, captured him, or eradicated him and
>> kept quiet about it. Making a greater martyr of him by rowing about it isn't
>> progress, and neither as NFM says does killing him and those with him without trial
>> reinforce the west's moral ascendancy.
Afraid thats part of the stigma of being on side with the yanks. They have a national obsession of being seen to be carrying a big stick.
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Am I the only one who sees a certain irony in the fact that a dreadful attack happened at a concert featuring a group called 'Eagles of Death Metal'? Groups with names like that seem common over here - maybe it's the same everywhere?
We are expecting our Parisien next-door neighbours for lunch. I'm sitting here waiting for them to cancel. What could we say that might bridge the gaps in understanding?
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>> to cancel. What could we say that might bridge the gaps in understanding?
In polite british society we would ignore the issue and discuss the weather.
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Yeah, I thought that and maybe mention their oak tree that drops acorns on our prairie. But it all seems a bit inadequate and as other neighbours with, shall we say, Right Wing tendencies will be here I certainly don't want to provoke a Daily Mail-style argument.
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Did anyone see this mornings pathetic response from Mr Corbyn? Hand wringing and love everybody, I hope he never gets anywhere near No 10.
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I see he was due to give a speech today
"He had planned to talk about foreign policy, the economy and politics"
Probably best he keeps his mouth shut at this point
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ON,
Would you care to provide a link re JC on Paris?
Preferably one to what he actually said and not a context shorn extract designed to feed the outrage of righty tighties?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 10:03
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No not seen it yet ON what did he say?
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Just seen it. Heinous and immoral we stand with the people of France etc. That's from twitter.
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>> Did anyone see this mornings pathetic response from Mr Corbyn? Hand wringing and love everybody,
>> I hope he never gets anywhere near No 10.
>>
Speaking as someone who is slightly left at centre in my political outlook, I wholeheartedly agree with you ON, the guy is a joke.
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>> Speaking as someone who is slightly left at centre in my political outlook, I wholeheartedly
>> agree with you ON, the guy is a joke.
But what did he actually say? surely the tweet reported upthread isn't the issue.
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Sorry I have been out this morning, the brief interview was on Sky News, I can't see it on the website at the moment.
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I found this in the Guardian.
The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said on Saturday the world needed to “look for peace†in the wake of the “horrific†attacks. He said the atrocity was an attack on “all of us who stand for the kind of fair and inclusive societies we want to live inâ€.
Corbyn said other cities, including London, had gone through the same trauma and added that there were also “many dying in wars around the worldâ€.
He said: “We have to send our support and our sympathy to all the people of Paris. They are, like London, like so many cities around the world, vibrant, multi-faith, multi-cultural societies. This is an attack on all of us who stand for the kind of fair and inclusive societies we want to live in.â€
Unfortunately you can't see the body language that accompanied the statement.
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>> I found this in the Guardian.
Link?
So it's not his words but your interpretation of his body language that causes offence?
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>> >> I found this in the Guardian.
>>
>> Link?
It's in this article.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-david-cameron-emergency-cobra-meeting
Anything else you want me to do?
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>> www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-david-cameron-emergency-cobra-meeting
>>
>> Anything else you want me to do?
I suspected that was the article. Sincee all it does is quote it says nothing about JC's body language.
But then again I'd put no more weight on your account of Jezza than of your account of interaction with cyclists.
EDIT - Or your views on lawyers for that matter.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 13:30
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"interaction with cyclists."
........ just to cheer you up, Brompt, I've just taken delivery of a pair of Schwalbe Marathon Pluses to be fitted to my wife's bike next week.
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Mrs ON and I have them on our bikes, good tyres.
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>> I suspected that was the article. Sincee all it does is quote it says nothing
>> about JC's body language.
I heard it on the radio this morning. It was a pathetic handwringing whining plea for world peace, rather popish in its delivery and incisive commentary.
You want to slap the man out of his dream like reverie.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 04:05
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Thanks Z, I didn't think I miss read his attitude.
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Apparently a Reuters report confirmed a Syrian passport was found on the body of one of the suicide bombers at the Stade de France in Paris after Friday’ night’s massacre.
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>> Apparently a Reuters report confirmed a Syrian passport was found on the body of
>> one of the suicide bombers at the Stade de France in Paris after Friday’ night’s
>> massacre.
From which we are to infer what? That he'd crept in as a refugee? Don't forget France has historic links to Syria via the inter war 'mandate'.
At least one other meanwhile was a French national. If UK's terrorists are anything to go by a disproportionate number will turn out to be converts.
Lee Rigby's killers were both Brits brought up as Christians.
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Do those who object to Corbyn's comments think Hollande's "This is an act of war...France will be merciless..." rhetoric is going to help? We can't possibly squash all the wasps, and 14 years of poking sticks into their nest has achieved precisely nothing of value to us - just a lot more wasps in places we didn't have them before.
We need to treat the people who plan and do these things as criminals - not the 'warriors' they fancy themselves as - catch them and lock them up. Dressing this up as 'war' just creates false glamour to recruit more disaffected youth to oppose the Western 'oppressor'.
Ultimately the solution has to be economic, not military. Young men with educations, jobs and decent housing aren't (generally) seduced by the lies of murderous nutters. Create a decent life here on earth and nobody will feel the need for sky-fairy myths anyway.
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Sorry but catching the planners is NOT the solution.
We have to catch and extinguish those who spread the message of jihad. Which probably entails permanent jail with zero access to messages from /to the outside world.. As we cannot do that - many are outwith our control - we have to counter their message..
How many decades will it take? About 50 based on history.
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>> We have to catch and extinguish those who spread the message of jihad.
Thus allowing them to present themselves as victims of a 'crusade' and further the message of jihad?
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>> Do those who object to Corbyn's comments think Hollande's "This is an act of war...France
>> will be merciless..." rhetoric is going to help? We can't possibly squash all the wasps,
>> and 14 years of poking sticks into their nest has achieved precisely nothing of value
>> to us - just a lot more wasps in places we didn't have them before.
>>
Spot on.
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>> Do those who object to Corbyn's comments think Hollande's "This is an act of war...France
>> will be merciless..." rhetoric is going to help?
Nope. Had Corbyn said "we need to withdraw and engage these people in dialogue" or "if i were PM i would organise a world summit to discuss the situation and invite ISIS" I would have said, "good idea jezza - wont work but at least you have a plan"
"We need world peace" does not cut it from a would be leader of one of the worlds top 10 nations. Makes him sound like ali baba frantically trying to rub his magic latern.
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>>Can someone on here explain why France (and Paris) has been more of a target than anywhere else recently?
Some reasons.
-Large Muslim population, many disaffected by reception they received on leaving Algeria. -Now, much discontent in the "hot suburbs" (banlieus chaudes) of Paris, whose population was famously described by then Present Sarkozy as "rabble".
-Charlie Hebdo provocation asking for trouble.
There are longer-standing problems that predate Algeria; I witnessed a punch-up between police and some Muslims in the rue de la Huchette in 1947 although I didn't find out over what.
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It does look like one of the bombers could have been a refugee -
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995541/Paris-shootings-terrorist-attack-french-victims-latest-news.html
There must have been a few slipped in by ISIS among the genuine refugees, a golden opportunity on their part to plant trained fighters who would not be known to the security services.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 17:02
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>> It does look like one of the bombers could have been a refugee -
If of course the passport belonged to the person it was found with. The report you quote from the Telegraph contains the words It has not been confirmed that the holder of the passport was the attacker.
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Societies have no ready defence against suicidal/homicidal cretins who imagine that 'belief' in some nonsense is better than knowing something. Of course they could try harder not to manufacture these cretins in such huge numbers.
Meanwhile fast, ruthless and very discreet response by the security services is best. D notices and veiled threats a'gogo, ooh yeah. Not too many wet jobs we hope, we are British after all.
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From Facebook.....
""Can i just take this opportunity to remind you all that Mr Mohammed from your local shop wasn't involved in last nights attacks on Paris. Neither was Mrs Azeer from Lloyds Bank or her family. Kamal from down the road has never been to Paris, and his brother Abdul, the taxi driver, was watching the news in horror along with everyone else.
The people behind last night's attacks weren't Muslims, they were extremists using religion as vindication for their cowardice.
Please, I urge each and everyone of you, do not lay blame at the doors of the innocent just because of what they believe. They are no more to blame for Paris than you are.
We are one world and one family. Treat each other as such, because what happened last night should bring us closer together, not make us lash out against our neighbours for a perceived religion affiliation""
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I've had that one too Mark. Seems spot on to me.
Meanwhile it's reported that French hotheads have been targeting the migrant camp at Calais.
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>> it's reported that French hotheads have been targeting the migrant camp at Calais.
Every country has its ignorant, racist, obnoxious scum looking for someone to bully. No doubt a couple of ours will be along soon.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 18:11
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The warning had been given-
Some of these types may be on the boats coming across to Greece.
It is now reported that one of attackers was logged entering Greece by that route about a month ago.
That should make many countries in Europe shudder.
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All those who thought Enoch Powell got it wrong can say so now.
He did get it wrong. He (basically) targetted Jamaican immigrants...
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"He did get it wrong."
Though one of the witnesses interviewed did refer to "a stream of blood".
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>>It is now reported that one of attackers was logged entering Greece by that route about a month ago.
>>That should make many countries in Europe shudder.
Do you think so? Not really.
How about "one of the attackers was a French National, born and bred"?.
Now *THAT* should make them shudder.
Exactly how will you find / detect / police / get rid of / prevent / whatever one of your own nationals?
You can't even target the religion because often they are recently converted Christians.
They don't stand out, if you find them you can't ship them out, they provide no easy target, and France has 66 million of them.
And the manta of the ignorant of bombing them out of existence would literally be shooting yourself in the foot.
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>> Do you think so? Not really.
>> How about "one of the attackers was a French National, born and bred"?.
>> Now *THAT* should make them shudder.
What's the difference? Thanks to Schengen once inside the EU border how do you know who's where? Not everywhere operates the local registration system.
The local can fly under the radar but so can the in transit. In a city many, not all, are strangers.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 04:06
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Because perhaps you can stop one type, even if you can't stop them you have someone material to blame, but if they are your own then war, attack, closed borders and every other measure is worthless.
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Not sure that holds up in the global village. How many have passed off siblings or relatives documents as their own? You see the Police using fingerprint recognition because the printed document had failed.
Closed borders with 12 coppers covering several hundred miles due to cut backs since 2008. Got to protect those g(u)ilt edged pensions the member states can't afford.
Perfect storm.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 21:33
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Its simple and to over-simplify further for illustration and ignoring the advisability of any particular action;
Possibility 1) the problem is foreign nationals.
a) Close the borders
b) bomb their country
c) kick out all the foreign nationals you can find
d) feel better because you know who the bad guy is
Possibility 2) the problem is your own nationals.
a) um.................
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 21:38
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Possibility 1)
How do you define foreign national ? The south of England is stuffed if you go back far enough.
Possibility 2) Where do you start ? See Possibility 1.
The French will get it wrong whatever they do, they are French.
The Germans will take the blame because of Frau Merkel's great idea this summer.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 21:48
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Oh gmac, work it out, its not difficult. You are being silly. You know exactly what I mean.
You are not stupid so I assume that you're being awkward.
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I'm being neither. How do you define a foreign national who has upped sticks and moved ?
I am a foreign national in my adopted country but my son is a national.
I have no immediate plans, though never say never, to return to my country of birth. Does that make me a bad person who should be ejected when my son is possibility 2 ?
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 21:53
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Since you are taking it to extremes it means exactly this..
If you *KNOW* that your problem is foreign nationals (which we will define as everybody not born in the country) then if you throw them all out, including you but not your son, and refuse to let any more in, then however ridiculous and unfair you have been you have solved your terrorist problem.
If you *know* that your problem is your own nationals, so including your son but not you, then what do you do?
What now will your own extremists call for? How now will you feel better about your own country? etc. etc.
France has 60,000,000 people. more than 50,000,000 were born there. If their problem is people not born there, then they have to watch or throw out 10,000,000 people that they can identify (although perhaps not find) and they can stop the problem getting worse.
If their problem is the 50,000,000 then what do they do?
Its all very silly, but in the scheme of things that should make countries shudder it seems to me that a problem with your own people is more scary than a problem with immigrants.
Anyway, it was only a small point and not worth further discussion
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>> Anyway, it was only a small point and not worth further discussion
>>
I get your point, the difference being the country where I am currently resident I have to register, pay taxes, basically the locals know if I am a good egg or not. They tolerate my bad local language so I must be paying a shed load in tax for them to put up with me and humor me.
Maybe it's a kick in the pants to Brussels that the more exposed borders require similar controls in place to ensure the less desirable in society does not make it through.
The problem remains Frau Merkel's open borders strategy this summer and the idiots from the EU haggling with Africa to take their nationals back. Ireland does not mess about, they stick them on a plane and leave it up to the destination to sort out based on the documentation the person has on them at the time.
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I agree with much of that.
If one forces people into the open then life is easier. Not easy, but easier.
Benefits, cash in hand jobs, lack of IDs, lack of local beat policing, no go areas, people sleeping rough, immigrant camps, unofficial apartment buildings etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. are all things which allow people to stand in the shadows - local or immigrant.
We need to stop worrying about the nationality, and start focusing on removing the shadows.
And, as you say, break the rules and you're out if foreign, and punished if you're national.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 22:17
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We've just bought a house here, we went to buy a kitchen. In the UK it's all about the money, show us the money and we can do a deal. Here, I had to show my passport and local registration papers BEFORE we could order and start talking money.
I like that, makes me feel like someone has some control.
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Dave, this obsession you have with editing other people's notes is a pain. You've made gmac's less readable, especially in threaded view.
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That might have been me, I went back and edited.
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>> Dave, this obsession you have with editing other people's notes is a pain.
Well if some people didn't keep ignoring the request to summarise and not quote EVERYTHING they're replying to, then maybe I wouldn't have to come along afterwards and wipe their bums for them.
>> You've made gmac's less readable, especially in threaded view.
I've put a few words back in now - happy? It was your post he was replying to though. surely you could remember what you typed? And since when have you started viewing in threaded view?
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>> >> Dave, this obsession you have with editing other people's notes is a pain.
>> Well if some people didn't keep ignoring the request to summarise and not quote EVERYTHING
>> they're replying to, then maybe I wouldn't have to come along afterwards and wipe their
>> bums for them.
>> >> You've made gmac's less readable, especially in threaded view.
>> I've put a few words back in now - happy? It was your post he
>> was replying to though. surely you could remember what you typed? And since when have
>> you started viewing in threaded view?
>>
Why does it matter? Just leave other people's post alone.
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Oh and i see you deleted my note quoting your comment about gmac being too lazy to do it himself.
Why?
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>> Why does it matter?
1. It looks untidy.
2. People don't want to read through a whole load of quotes, before seeing the reply.
3. The pop up message asks people not to quote everything, but some people still do, and it's always the same people = lazy.
>> Just leave other people's post alone.
It never stopped you when you were a moderator ;) Thing is, back then there wasn't the tell tale "edited by" message to say you had changed anything.
>> Oh and i see you deleted my note quoting your comment about gmac being too lazy to do it himself. Why?
Because I removed it from the earlier post when I added some stuff back in at your request, and leaving your comment in further down didn't make any sense at all reference to it had vanished. God, there's no pleasing you is there. Do one thing and it's wrong. Do something else and it's also wrong.
Now put the carrot away please and stop goading.
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> 2. People don't want to read through a whole load of quotes, before seeing the
>> reply.
>> 3. The pop up message asks people not to quote everything, but some people still
>> do, and it's always the same people = lazy.
I don't think it's that, some people just aren't bothered by it.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 08:00
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>>It never stopped you when you were a moderator ;)
You frequently make this statement and it is becoming tiresome. And, as in this case, usually wrong. If you like we can discuss those days, no doubt you recall I once unintentionally offered you some feedback.
Or we can let it go. Your call.
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>> Or we can let it go. Your call.
I'm quite happy to call a cease fire, but as you're making demands, here are mine back to you.
Stop dictating to me how to moderate the forum. If you have any issues with how I do it, then take it up with the boss - SL.
Stop accusing me of things I haven't done. eg. deleting posts, moving posts, etc, and then making snide remarks about it.
Personally, I blame the bloke who puppy walked me all those years ago ;)
ps, the frownie isn't from me.
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>>"Can I just take this opportunity to remind you ....."
My youngest, at 17 was today at a local centre for bright but economically disadvantaged kids from Asia, to play pool and table tennis with them.
He is race blind, which I am proud of.
They are ever so grateful to be here and glad to have the someone from the local community that doesn't ignore them or shout racial abuse at them.
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>> He is race blind, which I am proud of.
Better than being racist, but not a perfect position. You can't compensate for what you deny or don't see.
He's probably pretty cool and well ahead of anyone here.
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Ah hindsight. Is it just me or does the notion of removing border controls across much of Europe these past few years seem totally dumb now?
How can France, or any other country, keep track of which undesirables are within their borders when they have entered invisibly? Not much value in relying on other countries thousands of miles away tracking who has past through on the way to somewhere else.
Talk about leaving the back door wide open....
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>> Talk about leaving the back door wide open....
Most of them involved in this were born in France, they came through no door. The UK has border controls, and ours were home grown too.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 04:07
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The United States of Europe project was never going to work.
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Think or hope? Many get the two confused.
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"Most of them involved in this were born in France"
According to the BBC news online, the first has been identified as a native Frenchman called Omar Ismail Mostefai.
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>> According to the BBC news online, the first has been identified as a native Frenchman
>> called Omar Ismail Mostefai.
Looks as though that was his name at birth too. I'm still betting on some of them being converts with birth names like Pierre or Guillaume.
Security 'expert' on radio thought we should be sceptical of the Syrian Passport. Suicide bombers usually go out of their way to avoid ID and it would be in interests of ISIS to stir up trouble and suspicion re refugees.
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>> Ah hindsight. Is it just me or does the notion of removing border controls across
>> much of Europe these past few years seem totally dumb now?
Border controls between France, Germany and Benelux were removed 20yrs ago. The driver was cross border trade in a free single market. The sheer volume of goods/people crossing the borders then, never mind now, meant controls were either non existent/cursory or caused massive queues. Checking every entry and exit with open borders embedded in people's trade and work is utterly impractical.
What proportion of the workforce in Geneva lives over the border in France?
Land borders crossed by multiple roads were always permeable. UK couldn't seal up the land border between NI and the Irish Republic during the troubles.
As a family we crossed from France to Spain, then still a dictatorship, and vv unchecked in 1973 using the coast road between Cebere and Port Bou. Controls were often only manned during daytime.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 09:42
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Germany has around 3,000 Kilometres of land borders shared with 9 countries. To provided an impermeable border woiuld clearly be impossible. Borders were alway about trade and tarrifs, not keeping out individuals determined to enter the country.
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>> Germany has around 3,000 Kilometres of land borders shared with 9 countries. To provided an
>> impermeable border woiuld clearly be impossible.
Bits of the the Siegfried Line are still in place, quite a lot of the Maginot Line is in place, alas the Antlantik Wall is a bit too far gone now.
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>> A view from a Muslim scholar.
The man says: "Only a concerted ideological campaign against medieval Islamist ideology, like the one that discredited and contained communism, could turn the tide".
I'd agree. But it'll take some c ojones..... and an abandonment of PC and appeasement.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 15 Nov 15 at 15:51
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It is all a bit cynical this outpouring of grief in the wake of the Paris terror attacks with many famous landmarks changing their lighting to the colours of the French flag. I don't recall them doing the same when 90 peace demonstrators were blown up by a suicide bomber in Ankara in October or after the 2013 Westgate shopping centre attack in Kenya.
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A variety of Facebook etc memes have made same point Zippy. One example here:
instagram.com/p/-DmUOwJ0tC/
Some may see it straying beyond cynicism and into hypocrisy. Certainly plays with those on the other side who say we value only Western lives.
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"Some may see it straying beyond cynicism and into hypocrisy."
Well, blow me down ........... I didn't think those of the leftie persuasion could even spell hypocrisy. I need a drink!
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The truth is that the right thing to do would be to ignore the whole thing.
But that would be hard to do.
As it is the entire world is talking about it, security and chaos everywhere and everything on every TV .station in the world.
Pretty much a resounding sucess for ISIS
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>> The truth is that the right thing to do would be to ignore the whole
>> thing.
yup
>> Pretty much a resounding sucess for ISIS
yup
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My take too. The reporting needs to be factual and restrained, all the sentimentalised and overdone outpourings of grief are exactly what ISIL want. For a terrorist organisation, there's no such thing as bad publicity.
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Thing is it's quite difficult to ignore it. An attack of this type in a western capital is quite rare and thus is covered quite a bit because it's of interest to people. I've looked more than normal on the news websites because it's of interest to me. I would think many are the same.
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my solution to the problems is first of all
identify the trouble makers jail/deport them
check all mosques for any extermist speeches
closely co operate with other foreign intelligence
place refugees on a sailing boat, old ships converted to mini hotels
deport all criminal foreign nationals
reinforce anti isis message ie islam is peace, love harmony every one is judged by god/allah as he ultimately decides not man
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Sorry but the Human Rights Act would prevent most of your proposals..
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....and common sense would stop the others.
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In the end, you cannot physically prevent terrorism. Ok, you can make it more difficult to achieve, but you can't stop it.
As for closing borders, that has never been 100% achieved has it? Not even in WWII or the Cold War.
Also, essentially to your chances of stopping a crime is the culprits wish to escape prosecution or at least survive. If they are prepared to accept achieving neither, then you are pretty much screwed.
If you want to stop it, then you need to go back to understanding why they want to do it, or are prepared to do it and address those.
Bombing anybody does not achieve that. Nor will it ever stop terrorism and terrorist.
Take away people's desire, or their need to fight, don't give them any reason to retaliate, take away the possibility of them getting what they want by force, etc. etc. and it goes away.
Stop interfering, stop insisting on seeing the world's conflicts in black and white terms of goodies and baddies, stop offering excuses. and we have a chance.
The soldiers may be fervent supporters and wannabe martyrs. but the leaders are just after power, control and influence - they will eventually defeat themselves by becoming us.
And the ones between the leaders and the soldiers are just criminals who even their own people will become tired of once the distraction of the common enemy has been removed or lessened.
I can see no way that force, border control, or retaliation will achieve anything other than escalation.
The Cold War was won through social and economic means. The Soviet Block ran out of money and the people stopped wanting to do it.
There's a lesson there.
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And I wonder why they [we?] are not using propoganda?
Why don't we pass word that Jihadi Jim or whatever his name is has deserted ISIS and joined the Western Forces as an informant, that Osama Bin Laden is alive and living in the Bahamas, that the reason the West has not killed Nasty-person-X is that he's a double agent... etc. etc.
Crowing over killing them doesn't seem to be achieving much.
I suppose there must be a reason, but I wonder what it is.
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>> I suppose there must be a reason, but I wonder what it is.
we dont control the media.
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>> The truth is that the right thing to do would be to ignore the whole
>> thing.
>>
>> But that would be hard to do.
>>
Worse than that, you know we actually lap it up. OK you'll all howl and whine thats not the case, others might but not you, but really? at the end of the day its drama.
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>>but really? at the end of the day its drama.
True.
Madonna crying on stage? Really?
All night vigils etc. etc.
My sister in law (Chilean) was in London for the Tube Bombings. It was all a bit dramatic and traumatic but the overwhelming story which she tells time and time again is that 2 hours after it all happened the Brits were in the pubs, and the next morning things carried on as if nothing had ever happened.
And about the old woman interviewed who said "F*** them, they're not going to change our lives".
I wonder if we'd impress her so much if it happened again tomorrow.
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>> Worse than that, you know we actually lap it up. OK you'll all howl and whine thats not the case, others might but not you, but really? at the end of the day its drama.
Yes, and for a while there I had the juicy task of choosing some of the stuff.
No call to exaggerate. Editing will flatten anything, and it hurts.
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BREAKING NEWS - Roger.
