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I've just started using a PINsentry for logging on to Barclays online banking. It might be safer but it's definitely more tedious.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 07:19
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I called Barclays to offer my opinions, the tedious process, not wanting to carry the pinpad around with me, that fact that is all online accounbts required a separate pinpad then I would have a draw full of them etc, they said I could carry on as before though would not be able to set up new payees online.
Voice your opinions, they may make it easier.
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>> .......... they said I could carry
>> on as before though would not be able to set up new payees online.
Once I'd received it I had to start using it or risk being locked out, but with the option of also specifying non-PINsentry login. The latter is just as tedious if not more so.
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The fact that Barclays feel the need to introduce systems such as this tells me all I need to know about online banking.
Avoid.
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>>Avoid.>>
No its fine, in fact their standard login is pretty secure, also the system used by ING Direct to avoid key loggers is quite clever.
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...No it's fine...
My ordinary account was tinkered with last year, so that's far from secure, either.
Putting the account on the internet gives the crooks another opportunity to get into it.
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It can be useful, although there are some things which are exceedingly dangerous. If I pay the wrong person, for instance, it's my fault. The bank won't help in getting the money back, and it is difficult to contact the person you paid, and it could be that they are not required to repay you.
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>> Avoid.
Clk Sec and ifithelps, are you saying that you don't use online banking?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 09:19
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Many older people do not use online banking. My dad, for instance, has a deap distrust of online banking, and in fact has never AFAIK bought *anything* online.
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...Clk Sec and ifithelps, are you saying that you don't use online banking?...
Les,
I don't use it - as per my avoid post - although I have dipped my toe in the water by having online control of a credit card.
That works OK, although I managed to get a £12 late payment charge.
No paper statement in my in-tray - out of sight, out of mind.
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I use this system. It is quite OK and non-tedious once you've set up your browser to remember the numbers (apart from your card number and Pinsentry-generated numbers, of course). The navigation is a bit off, though - press "Back" on your browser, and you are likely to be booted out - you are supposed to use links on the page on display. You can, AFAIK, use anyone's Pinsentry to generate a "log-in" string using your card. Don't leave your Pinsentry lying about, or someone will wander off with it, thinking it's a calculator.
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You don't need one for each account - it accepts whatever Barclays Connect cards you've got. We use one for all accounts and have another in the 'going away' bag just in case.
You can also use the basic login system if all you want to do is check a balance or transfer a small amount between accounts. It just uses your card number and a letters of password system.
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Hope it is better arranged than the Nationwide system, which (apparently - I am going to query this with them) only allows one pin-pad even where it's a joint account.
This is less helpful than it might be when one's spouse is trying to sort out an online payment when one is away, but the pad will (apparently) not work with spouse's debit card.
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Smile allows you to use the PinPad thingy for any number of accounts. I can't speak highly enough of them, especially in the early days after I was unexpectedly widowed. Brilliant service from friendly Warrington based staff - and a 93 quid divi off them this summer....I like them a lot !
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Barclays system is (IMO) overkill. The fact you have to use the pinsentry everytime you log in surely makes it less secure, as you have to carry the machine and the card if you want to log on.
Far simpler (and Which? agree) is the RBS/Natwest system, whereby you only need the pinsentry thingy to set up new transactions/payees and such like. The rest of the time you only need your usual password and log in code.
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>> The fact you have to use the pinsentry everytime you
>> log in surely makes it less secure, as you have to carry the machine and
>> the card if you want to log on.
You can log in without the card reader or card if you only want limited facilities on that occasion. I've tried it and it's improved my memory no end. I can now remember my 16 digit debit card number!
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 07:53
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>> all online accounbts required a separate pinpad then I would have a draw full of them etc
my limited experience of these things is that one machine works on three different banks accounts - obviously with the card and PIN appropriate for a specific account.
I think it's common technology across parts of the banking sector.
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>I can now remember my 16 digit debit card number! <
Me too! I have all our numbers and passwords, etc, in my head (with a secure real world back-up, of course).
SWMBO realises my value...
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The card reader generates a string of 8 (seemingly random) numbers which is then acceptable for on-line login. Since there is no connection between the card reader and the computer, how does the system work? Spooky!
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Nothing to do with the computer. Its all to do with your bank card. The online system generates a number, you type that into the bank card and the bank card generates the number. The bank know what number the card will output given the input.
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Zero, the Barclays system does not work like you say. You put your card into the reader and enter your PIN. It generates an 8 digit number which you use to login. You also have to enter the last 4 digits of the card you used to login.
To make a payment to someone new, the process is similar but you also enter the amount on the reader using the SIGN function. And I seem to recall a few other details are entered about the payment too. But if you get the online system to remember the payee after doing this once.
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still all to do with details on the card and what the bank knows about the detail on your card.
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And time/date too no doubt. The number changes obviously and the algorithm used by both ends calculate the same number using the details such as PIN and card.
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nat west and nationwide have been using this system for a year or three.
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The pinpad is a dumb thing, its esentially only a card reader It has no awareness logic of time, date, place and who. The only variables are the card and the data entered on the pad.
esentially all thats happening is the hash value on the card is being used as a decryption alogorthym.
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There is logic in the key pad for Barclays. The 8 digits change with the same card and PIN. Therefore the algorithm uses something else, e.g. date/time. I assume you don't have one. I've had one for a few years.
I also have a Natwest one and that works slightly differently for how/when it is used.
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It uses your PIN, a number from your relevant card, and the time. Your pin is stored in encrypted form by the bank's systems. Your card numbers are also on the systems. The time is known by both systems, albeit not very exactly by your card. A hashing algorithm applied to these data by the bank's system, and your machine, must match. You must use the number generated by your machine within a certain time, or else re-generate the number.
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FotheringtonTomas, thanks for the explanation.
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>> FotheringtonTomas, thanks for the explanation.
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I don't think the time comes into it - loosely speaking (and I may be completely wrong here), the chip on your card is capable of performing an encryption operation using your PIN as part of the private key. This will generate a unique 8 digit output which relies on both the input number from the bank and your PIN.
Your bank knows what your PIN is, so it performs the same operation on its end. If the number you generate on the machine matches, the bank knows that the person with the card knows the PIN, and by de facto, is the account holder.
The machine is nothing more than an interface to the chip, which interestingly, is now being built directly into the card by VISA.
www.visaeurope.com/en/about_us/innovation/visa_codesure.aspx
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>> I don't think the time comes into it
The number generated is usable only in a time-restricted window.
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>> >> I don't think the time comes into it
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>> The number generated is usable only in a time-restricted window.
the window is controlled by the online system, not the card
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If I put my card into the machine, hit the IDENTIFY button and then enter my PIN I get a number. Remove card and repeat.... the 8 digit number will change. There is therefore a RANDOM nature to the number generated. But of course it is not random because the Bank can verify this.
To validate new payments, you all enter more details such as account number being paid.
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There is rather more to these things than I had originally surmised from my "limited experience", and possibly a bit less than there aught to be.
google
Optimised to Fail:
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>> Hope it is better arranged than the Nationwide system, which (apparently - I am going
>> to query this with them) only allows one pin-pad even where it's a joint account.
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>> This is less helpful than it might be when one's spouse is trying to sort
>> out an online payment when one is away, but the pad will (apparently) not work
>> with spouse's debit card.
Very good reason for only having one pin pad, they are all the same. Its the card that varies.
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With my Nationwide Joint Account, when using the system and card reader it asks me to pick which card I am using ie mine or the missus' ?
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>> With my Nationwide Joint Account, when using the system and card reader it asks me
>> to pick which card I am using ie mine or the missus' ?
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Interesting - if ours also works like that then it wasn't made clear in the blurb we got. Wouldn't rule out an error in providing the pad in the first place though. We've unfortunately had a number of those over the half-dozen or so years we've banked with them...
Edited to add: Don't you asterisk me, swear filter. That word isn't even rude.
Last edited by: paulb on Mon 26 Jul 10 at 12:54
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>> Hope it is better arranged than the Nationwide system, which (apparently - I am going
>> to query this with them) only allows one pin-pad even where it's a joint account.
Barclays will provide additional card readers for £6 each. You can also use someone else's card reader.
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Barclays PINsentry - Hard Cheese
