Saw this in the Telegraph today.
The article is too long to quote in full, so here's a link........................
www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/11941132/Misusing-a-knife-and-fork-is-the-eighth-and-deadliest-sin.html
I have to say, old bottom eructation that I am, I agree with every word written by the author.
Nothing makes me cringe more than seeing horrid table manners and I do tend to judge people by the way in which they eat.
My daughter's ex father-in-law was a supreme example of the hog at table, starting to eat before others at the table were served, arms so spread out that he needed two places and shovelling food into his mouth from about six inches above the plate.
He was a retired business man and also had been a TEFL teacher, so he was not ill educated, but just ill mannered.
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I wouldn't take it too seriously it's clearly a windup. Maybe the real article got mislaid or something similar.
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The BBC have picked up the same story. Several minutes of 5 Live Breakfast devoted to subject including interview with the Maitre d' in a 'posh' London restaurant.
Cannot get too roused by it to be honest. Society changes. Live with it.
We made an effort to eat together as a family right up until kids left home. Basic stuff like waiting for people to be served and putting cutlery straight when finished were enforced. But if the lad put his knife down and used his fork as a spoon so what?
Was taught to eat soup 'properly' sipping it off the side of a rounded spoon and tipping the bowl away to gather up the last of it. As a southpaw i have to use spoon in wrong hand though - a mouse is the only fine action I can manage with right.
If I'm confronted with a properly set table and a formal meal I know what to do. Next time I expect that is possibly a gathering of CS Colleagues at Xmas or more likely my Mother's 90th in May.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 08:06
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>> >> Was taught to eat soup 'properly' sipping it off the side of a rounded spoon
>> and tipping the bowl away to gather up the last of it.
The real proper way to eat soup is to leave the last bit in the bowl, and not tip it at all. It's bad manners to risk mishandling the bowl and spilling it either on yourself or across the table. Tut tut, Brompters.
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>>Basic stuff like waiting for people to be served
Preposterous Victorian habit. Particularly if there are numerous people it's important not to wait for everybody lest the food become cold.
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>>
>> Preposterous Victorian habit. Particularly if there are numerous people it's important not to wait for
>> everybody lest the food become cold.
>>
That's where the good manners of the host come in, by inviting, indeed instructing, the guests to start.
But not with the hackned "Do start, it will get cold". I only ever do that with icecream - "Do start, it will get warm".
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"We could not lead a pleasant life,
And 'twould be finished soon,
If peas were eaten with the knife,
And gravy with the spoon.
Eat slowly: only men in rags
And gluttons old in sin
Mistake themselves for carpet bags
And tumble victuals in. "
from Stans Puer Ad Mensam", a verse on manners . by Walter Raleigh (a Victorian poet nor the other one).
www.poemhunter.com/best-poems/sir-walter-raleigh/stans-puer-ad-mensam/
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 08:16
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>>
>> If peas were eaten with the knife,
I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny,
But it keeps them on the knife.
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I was with a German 'cultured lady' (her words) some years ago, and she taught me how to eat, propa like.
She would correct me if I was holding the fork 'n knife incorrectly - I hated that, and it made me a tad self-conscious about eating in public for many years afterward. She meant well of course but, yoos can't teach an old Dog new tricks.
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Personally I judge people on how they treat other people, not against some arbitrary table etiquette considered 'correct' in some quarters.
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Some of it is arbitrary - Bromp offers some examples - but mostly it's about not drawing undue attention to yourself, and not imposing yourself on those around you. No-one wants to see the half-chewed contents of my mouth, so it's up to me to spare them the sight.
Because we're there every day, the table is a good training ground for other areas of life, notably public transport, where we have to rub along with others we don't know and a little consideration can make all the difference. A neighbour who's been trained to eat with elbows tucked in can be a real blessing on a long trip in the back of the plane.
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>> Some of it is arbitrary - Bromp offers some examples - but mostly it's about
>> not drawing undue attention to yourself, and not imposing yourself on those around you. No-one
>> wants to see the half-chewed contents of my mouth, so it's up to me to
>> spare them the sight.
>>
>> Because we're there every day, the table is a good training ground for other areas
>> of life, notably public transport, where we have to rub along with others we don't
>> know and a little consideration can make all the difference. A neighbour who's been trained
>> to eat with elbows tucked in can be a real blessing on a long trip
>> in the back of the plane.
>>
I'd include those under 'how you treat other people', which is my point really. Rather more important than whether one holds one's fork in the correct hand for a a particular culture. I've known people with immaculate table manners who treat other people they consider inferior like dog poo, so I don't subscribe to this 'manners maketh the man' at all.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 12:27
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The first person that ever used a fork tine-down, obviously never bothered to read the manual!
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Good manners show across activities, I have a meal with a dozen or so friends on a monthly basis. Invariably when the first meals are served someone still waiting will say "Get started before it gets cold" . When we had robustly mannered Australian visitors they were surprised at the give and take on the roads in tight conditions until it was pointed out that without some give and take no one would move. Australian roads are heavily policed for a reason. :-)
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>>The first person that ever used a fork tine-down, obviously never bothered to read the manual!
Dunno what 'tine down' means but, my German byrd tried to teach me to 'offer' the food to my north & south on the back of the fork. I 'spose that's propa like?
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not against some arbitrary table etiquette considered 'correct' in some quarters.
Some of it is arbitrary for which a lot of is due to the Victorian rise of the middle classes, and some of it is just elementary politeness.
This is quite interesting reading and underlines the first point nicely. Australian society is not that different really.
www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bydesign/4954624
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 11:13
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I've recentlt been amazed at the number of people, not only young ones who can't hold a knife and fork correctly - if there is a correct way. They seem to hold them in a penholder grip.
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I like good manners, especially at the table. My children have excellent manners and it stands them in good stead.
Its hardly difficult.
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>>it stands them in good stead.
Too right.
Nobody will ever judge somebody adversely for eating nicely; people will judge somebody adversely for eating unpleasantly. Why put yourself/your children at a disadvantage when this can cost you a job offer, or a deal, or a relationship?
>>Its hardly difficult.
And if you don't care enough to send your children out into the world with the best you can offer them, well more fool you.
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>> I've recentlt been amazed at the number of people, not only young ones who can't
>> hold a knife and fork correctly - if there is a correct way. They seem
>> to hold them in a penholder grip.
>>
Well UK 'correct' is different to USA 'correct', so no, there isn't a correct way.
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>>Well UK 'correct' is different to USA 'correct', so no, there isn't a correct way.
Yes there is a correct way if you are British. And I - and others - will judge you if you do not follow it. If you are American, I will accept your different cultural habits.
And good table manners extend to being able to use chopsticks effectively. How I cursed my parents for the stainless steel chopsticks my father had once bought in Singapore. Ghastly slippery things. Great for learning though...
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Yes there is a correct way if you are British. And I - and others
>> - will judge you if you do not follow it. If you are American, I
>> will accept your different cultural habits.
I never even noticed there are 'British' or 'American' way of holding cutlery. Nor could i imagine looking at people to notice such things. Why would you judge someone about that?
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>>
>> Yes there is a correct way if you are British. And I - and others
>> - will judge you if you do not follow it. If you are American, I
>> will accept your different cultural habits.
>>
There is what you consider 'correct' - it's nothing more than that - if you're going to judge others on something so monumentally superficial then go ahead, I'll judge others on somewhat less superficial criteria.
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>>And good table manners extend to being able to use chopsticks effectively.
>>
>> How I cursed my parents for the stainless steel chopsticks my father had once bought in Singapore. Ghastly slippery things. Great for learning though...
>>
Chopsticks invented as they could not, in 1000s of years, make knives, forks and spoons.
I hate chopsticks. I certainly could not even attempt to consume soup in the way some Chinese do.
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>> And good table manners extend to being able to use chopsticks effectively.
True, I had no idea until shown how to use and hold them while visiting friends in Hong Kong. Like many things, easy when you know how, and have a bit of practice.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 17:00
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Also seen them held "backhand" with the blade/tines sticking out from betweeen the third and fourth fingers.
I don't think this is bad manners, just as I don't have a problem with the American fork only routine.
Just saying
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The great thing about this thread is that when the annual forum get together happens, now we all know who we will invite and who we won't.
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Adolf Hitler probably had very good table manners :-)
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>>Adolf Hitler probably had very good table manners
He wouldn't eat animals either so can't 'ave been all bad.
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>> >>Adolf Hitler probably had very good table manners
>>
>> He wouldn't eat animals either so can't 'ave been all bad.
Misleading half truth.
www.snopes.com/glurge/twoquestions.asp
"Hitler's diet was primarily vegetarian throughout the latter part of his life; however, he didn't adopt a vegetarian diet for moral reasons, but because he suffered from gastric problems."
Happened to me for a while and I went vegan for 2 years. No moral aspect to it at all for me or Adolf.
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>> He wouldn't eat animals either so can't 'ave been all bad
Yes, Hitler was a finicky eater owing to poor upbringing.
Goering was altogether more human and liked his nosh.
Not that you would have willingly broken bread with either of them.
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>> The great thing about this thread is that when the annual forum get together happens,
>> now we all know who we will invite and who we won't.
I'm only coming if Adolph Hitler, Führer und Oberster Befehlshaber der Wehrmacht, Reichskanzler des Grossdeutschen Reiches Oberster - Richter des Deutschen Volkes, Erster Soldat des Deutschen Reiches, Erster Arbeiter des neuen Deutschland, Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten, Heerführer Europas, Hoher Protektor des heiligen Berges - to give him his full title, is on the guest list.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 15:27
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Oh come on. Surely one notices early on that Americans and French people have different techniques with their eating irons. Or that there are class differences sometimes.
It's a source of interest. No one in their right mind would make 'judgements' over something so trivial.
If you notice a child in difficulty with the irons, you can offer a bit of shy advice unless its parents are present.
I can sort of cope with chopsticks but they aren't my favourite thing. Hard to get a decent mouthful often. I like genuine ivory ones, slippery though they are.
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In France when dining in bistros and cafes you usually retain cutlery between courses. If you leave them on your plate the waiter will carefully place them on the table. In restaurants of the smarter kind you get new cutlery for each course. If you leqve them on the table the waiter will carefully place them on your plate and remove them. A source of constant confusion.
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>>I like genuine ivory ones, slippery though they are. <<
There's Ammo if I ever saw it! ;-)
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>> Oh come on. Surely one notices early on that Americans and French people have different
>> techniques with their eating irons. Or that there are class differences sometimes.
>>
Having been two both countries i can honestly say no i haven't. So i cab figure out what is being talked about and it appears you and others do could you say what the differences are?
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Surely if you have been to the USA you will have noticed that many (most?) Americans eat with their fork. They use the knife and fork to cut up the food and then put down the knife and transfer the fork to thier right hand and eat the food solely with the fork. The French use the same method as we do I.e fork in left hand and knife in right throughout the meal.
The American way I believe dates from polite 18th Century aristocratic usage.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 18:28
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Nope i can honestly say I've never noticed.
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>> Having been two both countries i can honestly say no i haven't. So i cab
>> figure out what is being talked about and it appears you and others do could
>> you say what the differences are?
Not 100% clear if AC was comparing French and Americans or both with Brits.
On UK v French habits:
Dad's business back in sixties was importing dyes and chemicals for textile industry produced by a large French company - Francolor. Some business functions in Paris involved wives being invited. Remember my Mother, born into Yorkshire mining stock albeit at managerial level, commenting on French (a) eating cheese before desert and (b) tackling either fruit or cheese, possibly both, with a knife and fork.
And right up to my most recent visit in summer this year some places still expect one knife/fork combo to be used for both starters and mains.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 20 Oct 15 at 18:44
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Not 100% clear if AC was comparing French and Americans or both with Brits.
>>
I just asked what the difference was that's all. Cgn answered it. Not sure why a got a scowly.
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>> Not sure why
>> a got a scowly.
>>
I guess it's a classic case of posts lacking the visual and aural cues that exist face to face or even on the phone.
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They seem to hold [a knife] in a penholder grip.
I think that's an effect of using poor cutlery. A cheap, one-piece table knife has no edge worth the name, only that bit of serration towards the tip. Elevating the handle end - by holding the knife like a pen - is one way to get a little more work out of that tip, and you're probably not losing much control by not holding that skinny handle in the palm of the hand.
The tip of a proper table knife is rounded, making it the least effective part of the blade. Not a problem, since it has an edge that really cuts - but you have to hold the handle in the palm for the edge to reach the food.
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The mark of a gentleman is the ability to break wind at the table without emitting a sound, and the sit there impassively while one's guests redden with embarrassment hoping no one will think it was them.
A couple of strong pickled onions before the meal does have the effect of adding a silencer to one's back passage, I find.
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>> A couple of strong pickled onions before the meal does have the effect of adding
>> a silencer to one's back passage, I find.
Do you insert them in pairs or one at a time?
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I really think we should be able to give more than one green thumb per post where necessary.
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>> I really think we should be able to give more than one green thumb per
>> post where necessary.
Is this in the gardening section?
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On a similar topic, I came across the worst "table" manners I've ever experienced last night. OH & I went out with another couple; the girls had been at University together. Husband earns roughly a seven figure sum (my guess, but I'm about right), so "rather" more than I do. "darlings, we're going here, it's our favourite restaurant." Wife turns out to have drunk two glasses of v. expensive champagne over pre-dinner girly chat before I arrive. Wine list comes round and husband confers secretly with sommelier and orders wine. Wine was the sort of obvious jam-fruit stuff that I loathe. Food unremarkable. Service dreadful fussy service of the sort that I hate. Bill comes. Husband says to me, that's £135 each. Ouch, pretty sure I've never paid that much in a restaurant before but it wasn't going to be cheap, but hey, £68 per head isn't the end of the world. But no, when the credit card machine comes waiter wants £270 from me.
Turns out he'd been ordering wine at £80 per bottle without giving us any chance to give any input, and that they both chose the most expensive dishes. Not to mention the champagne. What a thoughtless way to behave. I won't be seeing them again.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 21 Oct 15 at 09:45
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>> husband confers secretly with sommelier and orders wine
I'd have got annoyed at that point. The price of the wine is just insult to injury.
Jumped up fart.
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Yet more evidence that you can't buy class.
You have my empathy, MM. What a pompous Aris'.
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>>I'd have got annoyed at that point. The price of the wine is just insult to injury.
TBH, I thought what a kind and generous chap, he's obviously treating us to dinner - or at least he's picking up the wine tab. He certainly behaved like it.
>>Sommeliers always recommend wines from the cheaper end of the price range!
Ah. I thought they always recommend the wines with the biggest profit margins... ;)
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 21 Oct 15 at 10:34
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Sommeliers that I know, and a I know a few, factor what they believe their customers' budget is likely to be into their recommendations.
It is in their interest that you leave believing them to be a good Sommelier, and ensuring that the wine is appropriate in every way including price is part of that.
However, sounds like the place you were in did flash more than it did sophisticated.
Where was it, if I may be so nosey?
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An Italian place at 10 Northumberland Avenue.
You are of course right about the sommelier, they are there to maximise the restaurant's profit within the scope of the customer, I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. That's why the £10 reduced to £5 wines in Tescos are very carefully chosen, they're wines that you feel might have been worth £10 in the first place - for all that obviously they're really only costing Tescos £2.50.
The wine the sommelier chose was exactly that sort of wine. Flash, blowsy stuff. No bottle age, no sophistication. And given our 'host' had been drinking champagne beforehand, I think he got it about right.
Shockingly, I've just looked on their website, the vintage we were served is not the same as the vintage in the menu. That really is a clear mark of a restaurant that 'doesn't care'. (For all there's a disclaimer at the bottom as to vintages.)
When I eat in that sort of a restaurant, I take my own with me and pay corkage. Better wine, better value. You never pay a £60 mark up over retail when paying corkage.
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>> When I eat in that sort of a restaurant......
If it is the sort of restaurant where one has to take along a bottle to be sure of a good wine at a reasonable price, then I would not eat it in at all.
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>> If it is the sort of restaurant where one has to take along a bottle
>> to be sure of a good wine at a reasonable price, then I would not
>> eat it in at all.
Restaurants (in London anyway) mark their wine up four or five fold. Corkage is between £10 and £20. So if you're planning on drinking wine that costs more than £5 in a shop, you might as well dig something decent out of the cellar and pay corkage. By the time it's £10 in a shop (£40-£50 in a restaurant) you're quids in. Of course, you can't just take any old muck and pay corkage, it has to be something a bit 'special'.
There are some exceptions. Like this place: www.andrewedmunds.com/sample-wine-lists.html e.g. The £36 Gigondas is £26 in Berry's. But it would still be better in 5-10 years' time.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 21 Oct 15 at 14:26
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You don't have this trouble at Whitby's! ( www.whitbysrestaurant.co.uk/ )
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>> sounds like the place you were in did flash more than it did sophisticated.
Doesn't sound as if there's much wrong with the place. You just need to avoid eating out ever again with the wine-ordering twit. What he needed was a kicking in the car park, or an absolute refusal to pay for any of the wine.
'You ordered it. You pay for it.'
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>> >> husband confers secretly with sommelier and orders wine
Sommeliers always recommend wines from the cheaper end of the price range!
;-(
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Manners Makyth Man. - sooty123
