Illegal, home made booze found in car of 75 yr old Brit who had lived in Saudi for 25 years or more.
news.sky.com/story/1568417/uk-pensioner-faces-350-lashes-in-saudi-arabia
I wonder if the people begging for this man to be shown mercy, despite quite clearly knowing exactly what he was up to, are the same people that insist foreigners should obey our laws when they are here?
I can't say I like the law or the penalty, but given that he's lived there for 25 years it can't have come as a surprise to him.
When in Rome, and all that....
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I worked in Jeddah Riyadh Dhahran over a period of several years and yes the booze law is well understood. Omce you clear customs then the religious police may tap your ankles with their cane to see if you have any miniatures off the inbound flight in your socks.
I had a limitless supply of the real stuff when I was there but that was not the norm.
Home brewing was certain going on in the ex pat compounds.
We and expats were encouraged to attend "punishments" after prayers on Fridays.
Thank goodness I avoided that barbaric activity.
The biggest problem is that their logic is not our logic so trying to keep legal is difficult.
My wife and baby daughter spent several months with me including Ramadan so it was an interesting time.
I had to arrange for a female fellow manager to come to meetings in Jeddah which presented a lot of hurdles. Always fearful as she was not escorted by a relative. Fortunately I had a lot of influential Saudis helping me.
Motoring link.
At one stage I had several cars when the team was reducing and I got a call.
" Is that one of your cars outside the flats we rented?" "Well rescue it quickly as it is being engulfed by building spoil." I took a cab across town and extricated it. The windscreen was very badly scored making it difficult to drive.
Apparently wet concrete had been dropped / dripped on the windscreen.
When the culprit was spotted and told to clean it off, he did - with a shovel. Logical!!!
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It seems reasonable to criticize both parties: the Saudi authorities for their inhumane laws and punishments, and an expat Brit who should have known better and who had a choice whether to be there at all.
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I can't think of any of the small handful of ex-pats I have known over the years who didn't have some level dependency on alcohol, and who didn't have tales of home brewed hooch, duplicator fluid etc. I guess the social life revolves around it. (It's a very small sample though...)
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>> It seems reasonable to criticize both parties: the Saudi authorities for their inhumane laws and
>> punishments, and an expat Brit who should have known better and who had a choice
>> whether to be there at all.
Pretty much my take. It's not some minutiae of religious observation in Saudi is it?
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If you're fully aware of the law and the consequences of breaking it then you've got no complaints. The punishment is brutally severe, but it's their country and we would soon tell them where to go if they started complaining about the way we did things here.
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I'd surprised if him getting pinched was random, I wonder how much of it was that he'd upset someone. I know a few people out there and drinking is quite common amongst the expats in the compounds. Of course the saudis know it's happening but are quite content to turn a blind eye. The attitude of many of them change as well when arriving here. We deal with them quite a bit, very much when in rome. They certainly can knock the booze back when away from home.
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I totally agree with sooty123
>>The attitude of many of them change as well when arriving here.
Had to deal with several situations such as landlords chucking them out due to their totally unacceptable antics ( to our standards) then having to get the mess cleaned up.
>>We deal with them quite a bit, very much when in Rome.
But when in doubt they can get on the next flight home.
>> They certainly can knock the booze back when away from home.
I have seen big piles of empty spirits bottles just outside city limits in Saudi.
"Oh! the bottles are from the embassies!"
The expat community has obvious problems.
Women. Only single women were nurses .
Boredom. No theatre, no cinemas unwatchable TV, only censored films could shown in hotels etc etc.
Bootleg videos. a risk if caught
Things may have changed since I was last there but usually I was there for 2/3 week stints or was sooo busy.
It was an "interesting " period for me.
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>> When in Rome, and all that....
>>
I agree - is this a first for us? :-)
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Agree with everyone so far !
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I did 30 work months in SA 45 years ago - had the odd drink in the comfort of my own room but would never of dreamt carrying drink around in a car
I knew the rules and the consequences.
As much as we might dislike the punishments he knew the risks and has to take the result. When I was there the punishment was usually 7-10 days in some holding cells and deportation.
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I thought, "silly old fool." And, "I don't expect the PM to step in." And, "Glad I don't live in that sort of an environment."
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 13 Oct 15 at 11:56
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He committed an offence, not some hidden secret offence, but a well known and well publicised offence. He was tried, he pleaded guilty and He was jailed for a year now due for release, Saudis have indicated the lashing part of the sentence wont be carried out.
So wheres the beef?
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>>So wheres the beef?
I guess its possible its just media "interpretation", but it is irritating that anybody might think the Government should get involved in such a matter.
Can you imagine if the Saudis tried to get involved in some UK court case?
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What sort of barbarous and uncivilised act is this? Drinking home brewed wine I mean. Good God, has the man no taste?
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For many years my Grandfather produced both wine and beer, usually made out of something weird, and always revealed with pride. He use to present me with a glass as if he was bestowing a great honour.
It was never, not once, pleasant enough for a second glass and most often the first glass was tipped into a plant pot.
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>> Can you imagine if the Saudis tried to get involved in some UK court case?
Somebody will be along in a minute to tell you why it's different....
Meanwhile, in a presumably unrelated move the Guardian is reporting that UK Govt is cancelling a £5m+ contract to provide services to Saudi Prisons. Lord Chancellor Gove is reported to favour cancelling but other Ministers regard that approach as 'naive'.
One or two reports suggest Gove has considerably stronger liberal/humanitarian instincts than his predecessor Chris Grayling.
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>> One or two reports suggest Gove has considerably stronger liberal/humanitarian instincts than his predecessor Chris
>> Grayling.
>>
Which is weird, because a year or two ago he was universally decreed the teaching establishment as a class one knob so far up himself he could see his own tonsils.
Since we neither need the 5 million quid from the Saudis nor their universal acclaim, I admire him for taking a genuine stance on principles here.
(Oh, and as for the pensioner facing the lashing - I find the "he knew the law" argument facetious at best. Just because the law is backwards doesn't justify it.)
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>> Which is weird, because a year or two ago he was universally decreed the teaching
>> establishment as a class one knob so far up himself he could see his own
>> tonsils.
Much of which was generated by the teaching unions. I actually saw him as principled and trying very hard to improve things.
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>>
>> Can you imagine if the Saudis tried to get involved in some UK court case?
>>
You are being ironic? Didn't they do exactly that in a fraud or bribery case recently?
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"Can you imagine if the Saudis tried to get involved in some UK court case?"
I think they have already, to do with suppressing a prosecution around corruption, bribes and BAe IIRC. Will scout around for more detail..
(Opps missed Cliff's post)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Yamamah_arms_deal
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 13 Oct 15 at 13:14
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Happens all the time, what's the point in governments having influence abroad and not use it? AY was always going to brushed under the carpet, simply too big.
Although did they interfere in an ongoing court case?
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Not that I recall, just in the decision about whether to prosecute.
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>>
>> So wheres the beef?
>>
I think this bit, there's some doubt over it being cancelled.
Saudis have indicated the lashing part of the sentence wont be
>> carried out.
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One solution to the different punishments handed out to law-breakers in any country, would be to "sentence" them as if the crime they committed was committed in their country of origin.
Some folk may say that you cant "punish" people differently for committing the same crime, but you can! for example:
If you speed in this country you will get a £60 fine, if we speed in another country we may get something worse! say 6mths jail + a "wupping"! - so if a Foreign National over here "Speeds" they should get 6mths and a "wupping" not a £60 fine. Not "when in Rome" but "do unto others".
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It might be an idea for you to look at how "do unto others" continues in the place where it originated.... :-)
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At least I think you spotted the "intention" of the post C/D! - It could be my bad grammar or laziness, but I posted "One solution could be...." and then merged "another (different) solution" on to the end, whereas I should have posted in a different paragraph, " Another solution would be ,Not when in Rome..." but "Do unto others (as you would have them do unto you)".
Easy to wrongly mis-read/interpret intentions in print!
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>> One solution to the different punishments handed out to law-breakers in any country, would be
>> to "sentence" them as if the crime they committed was committed in their country of
>> origin.
>
There might be problems.
We would have to keep available a wide variety of different instruments of torture and execution - firing squads, scimitars, guilotine, electric chair, whips, etc, also a stockpile of stones of the regulation size - in order to be able to offer a full service.
Some acts of course might not even be crimes at all in someone's country of origin. There might be countries where there were no speed or parking restrictions, or rules about drink driving.
There could be comical entertainment in court were a defendant to claim birth in a country that no longer exists, or had a legal code that became extinct say in 1917.
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This is a huge problem with "Nationalist" type thinking which devonite exemplifies here. the entire concept of "countries" is arbitrary, fluid and impermanent. The map of Europe alone has changed unrecognisably in my brief 45 years. Even our "Sceptered Isle" (with bits on another Isle) was under threat of changing last year with a narrow referendum result. And it has changed constantly over the past two millennia - look how many Kingdoms there used to be. Moral standards and law change persistently.
Peoples is peoples.
Of course, it doesn't stop me cheering for my country in the Rugby World Cup, but the concept pretty much ends there in reality. The world is just a great big onion.
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Briton jailed in Saudi Arabia back home
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34786686
".... but Saudi and UK officials have said "there was never any question" of Mr Andree being flogged."
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I refer my honourable friend to the reply I gave on the 13th october.
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Pensioner faces Lashing in Saudi Arabia. - henry k
