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Current news item:-
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34124021
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34123998
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 8 Sep 15 at 01:27
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Hannan talks the talk, but will he, at crunch time, walk the walk and vote to "Leave" the E.U.?
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3219016/For-pity-s-sake-shut-borders.html
Dare we open the debate here or will it descend into acrimonious persnal sniping?
I cerainly don't want that.
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Why the almighty Allah is advising Muslim migrants to seek refuge in Christian countries rather than within the Arab world?
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>> Why the almighty Allah is advising Muslim migrants to seek refuge in Christian countries rather
>> than within the Arab world?
At the risk of putting facts in the way of a good story, please bear in mind that the vast majority of Syrian refugees are being sheltered in neighbouring Arab countries. A small number are heading for Europe.
This really isn't the massive problem it's being made out to be. As usual.
Yes, the EU needs to act and we need a pan-European response. It shouldn't be too difficult.
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The "Migrant Crisis" will never be resolved until Europe unites to "do something" about isis!
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>> The "Migrant Crisis" will never be resolved until Europe unites to "do something" about isis!
What exactly does Europe do about Isis? (don't forget part of Europe deciding to do something has helped create isis in the first place)
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>> A small number are heading for Europe
How do you define a "small number"? If the number is so small, why not Arab countries are absorbing them as well?
There have reports that not all these refugees are Syrians only - there are people from as far as Pakistan!
If these people are allowed to stay in EU, it makes a mockery of visa system.
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>>If these people are allowed to stay in EU, it makes a mockery of visa system.
Quite.
If you have a rule, then enforce it. If you're not going to enforce it, then no point in having it.
In this case there are rules and they should be enforced / respected.
But the media are just gagging to find a story about the poor, suffering migrants that they can blast all over their front pages. And with various migrants trying repeatedly to bypass the law, security and the police then I expect the media will get their wish soon.
The problem is, of course, what do you do?
If they are genuine refugees, then it would be inhumane to force them back to danger, and it seems pretty obnoxious to simply say that its Greece / Italy / Whoever problem because they're landing there first and then to close your eyes.
If they are not genuine refugees and in fact are economic migrants, then there are so many that practical forced control seems impossible.
The UK won't accept ID cards, the public at large is quite happy to pay cash for work to avoid taxes and stuff, the UK doesn't like being delayed at borders, so what do you do?
Still, it must be XFactor season soon; no doubt someone without a visa will audition and the country will be up in arms one way or the other.
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>> If these people are allowed to stay in EU, it makes a mockery of visa
>> system.
Essentially you have two groups of people. Would be immigrants and would be asylum seekers.
Immigrants need visas, asylum seekers need safety. You need to sort the two sand deal with them differently.
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>> >> A small number are heading for Europe
>>
>> How do you define a "small number"? If the number is so small, why not
>> Arab countries are absorbing them as well?
Did you not read my first post? The vast majority of refugees from Syria are already being sheltered in neighbouring Arab and non-Arab countries (Jordan, Iraq, Turkey etc). A far smaller number are coming to Europe.
Others are coming from Afghanistan, yes - again, mostly being handled by middle eastern countries. But some come to Europe.
If you want to be taken seriously you must first put down the Daily Mail and get the facts straight. Then come back and talk about it.
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>> Did you not read my first post? The vast majority of refugees from Syria are
>> already being sheltered in neighbouring Arab and non-Arab countries (Jordan, Iraq, Turkey etc).
Well over a million are in Lebanon. Pre Syrian crisis its population was four million. It has an eclectic and potentially explosive ethno-religious mix and a recent bloody civil war of its own. Is a destabilised country bordering on Israel something the world can ignore?
>> Others are coming from Afghanistan, yes - again, mostly being handled by middle eastern countries.
And some from areas of Pakistan where ethnicity etc renders then unsafe.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 12:54
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"It has an eclectic and potentially explosive ethno-religious mix"
Blimey, Brompt, you'll be telling us next that multiculturalism doesn't work!
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"This really isn't the massive problem it's being made out to be. As usual."
Quite! I don't see any evidence of hordes of migrants landing in Bury St Edmunds - therefore the news-media must be exaggerating. What is all this nonsense about Calais grinding to a halt, and Budapest station being shut down and.........? They must be making it up to annoy the Kippers.
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>> Quite! I don't see any evidence of hordes of migrants landing in Bury St Edmunds
>> - therefore the news-media must be exaggerating. What is all this nonsense about Calais grinding
>> to a halt, and Budapest station being shut down and.........? They must be making it
>> up to annoy the Kippers.
The numbers on the move are huge. The biggest displaced persons/refugee crisis to affect Europe since 1945. But that doesn't mean it's insoluble. It won't go away though.
Calais is an issue because neither us nor the French want to actually solve it by sorting with the people in the camps as either refugees or migrants and dealing with them appropriately. In context of overall problem they're a miniscule group mostly people who have connections with UK - either relatives or a settled community here. Frankly, if those who can prove either/both those things and who speak good English were accepted as either temporary migrants or refugees we wouldn't notice.
The issue in Budapest is of the Hungarian government's making. It doesn't want to process them as legitimate refugees but neither will it allow them to leave.
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>> Hannan talks the talk, but will he, at crunch time, walk the walk and vote
>> to "Leave" the E.U.?
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3219016/For-pity-s-sake-shut-borders.html
leaving the EU is nothing to do with the current crisis. We are not part of the schengen agreement, we will not be part of the agreement after the vote, we have a secure border now and we will have one afterwards. So its a non issue to do with the vote.
Wont stop your Hero trying to make it one tho.
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I think his point is that UK in Schengen or not, if we are in the EU, and the EU takes in several million asylum seekers (1) if they can land in Italy or Greece, they can go anywhere in Europe without hindrance, including Calais; and (2) we will be made to accept our "share".
When refugees are a persecuted minority, granting asylum seems both rational and morally right.
When a possible majority of people are being oppressed, or endangered by civil war, then it makes more sense to think in terms of fixing the problem where it is than shipping all the people out, and potentially importing the problem too.
There are many tens of millions of people who may wish to migrate from north Africa (Eritrea, Nigeria, Tunisia, Libya to name a few, and populations of 6 million in Syria, 30 million in Iraq.
Letting ISIL get on with it, and taking in those who want to escape doesn't seem like a long term plan.
At the same time, the memory of the disastrous invasion of Iraq that started all this makes the prospect of substantial and sustained action to deal with ISIL very unattractive.
Rock, hard place, petard, hoist.
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>> I think his point is that UK in Schengen or not, if we are in
>> the EU, and the EU takes in several million asylum seekers (1) if they can
>> land in Italy or Greece, they can go anywhere in Europe without hindrance, including Calais;
>> and (2) we will be made to accept our "share".
Thats the point he would like to make, but of course it is not the case. Only EU citizens can travel to the UK for work unhindered. They aint EU citizens, and they aint likely to be for some considerable time, most of them probably never.
Calais is not the UK. Really not sure why we get upset that migrants have invaded there. Very few of the total amount end up there, and a minuscule amount get through to the UK.
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Thumb from me, Manatee. We don't often see things the same way but that's a good post.
Ref your first para, I don't see a problem in taking our fair share of refugees, along with all other 26 EU states. So long as we have a plan to help rid the middle east of ISIS and return it some form of inhabitable region.
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>> Ref your first para, I don't see a problem in taking our fair share of
>> refugees, along with all other 26 EU states.
Trouble is, most of them don't want to come here. The majority are trying to get to Germany.
>> So long as we have a plan
>> to help rid the middle east of ISIS and return it some form of inhabitable
>> region.
Again, I ask, what plan. What on earth can you do. (there is an answer actually, but its not palatable to the "lets get in there and do something" brigade)
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Sorry. I presumed our politicians, armed forces and civil service were the ones who should be coming up with the plans, in cooperation with our European and non-European partners and allies. Didn't realise I had to do it.
The majority may be trying to get to Germany but surely it is not beyond the wit of those cited in my post above to come up with some kind of agreement whereby the numbers are split up proportionately amongst member states?
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If immigrants and asylum-seekers are distributed evenly through the European countries some of the clamour about fairness will subside for a short time.
The real problem is that there is almost literally no end to the supply of incomers from Asia, Africa and elsewhere. At some point there will have to be some sort of restriction or metering of the flow.
Woman with baby on the box last night had paid 3,000 euros for a three-week journey, I forget from where, being smuggled across borders when necessary. She was just inside Sweden, journey's end. 'I like Sweden,' she smiled.
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>> If immigrants and asylum-seekers are distributed evenly through the European countries some of the clamour
>> about fairness will subside for a short time.
>>
>> The real problem is that there is almost literally no end to the supply of
>> incomers from Asia, Africa and elsewhere. At some point there will have to be some
>> sort of restriction or metering of the flow.
>>
>> Woman with baby on the box last night had paid 3,000 euros for a three-week
>> journey, I forget from where, being smuggled across borders when necessary. She was just inside
>> Sweden, journey's end. 'I like Sweden,' she smiled.
>>
Just think. If Climate Change forecasts are correct and Africa warms up, we'll see mass migration from the regions round the Equator as well..
It will literally never end..
(And a lot is economic migration).
It is of course unsustainable for any meaningful period... both from a space , resources AND political viewpoint...
As for destroying ISIS, start by killing off those who fund it....
Last edited by: madf on Wed 2 Sep 15 at 17:18
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>> Just think. If Climate Change forecasts are correct and Africa warms up, we'll see mass
>> migration from the regions round the Equator as well..
>>
>> It will literally never end..
Quite right, so time to start planning now.
OK, we could build walls and fences. But if you and yours were starving and dehydrated while those on the other side lived (or appeared to be living) the life of Reilly would it stop you?
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>> Sorry. I presumed our politicians, armed forces and civil service were the ones who should
>> be coming up with the plans, in cooperation with our European and non-European partners and
>> allies. Didn't realise I had to do it.
Ok I suppose "something" will have to do, whatever it is.
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Let's look at another way. The population of the EU is currently 500 million. How many refugees could it absorb. Well 1% of the population is not going to make a huge difference. That's 5 million. Share them proportionately to population between the various member countries. Job done.
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5 million? Or 5 million a year?
The UK has 8 million people living here who were born abroad..That is c 12% of the population
Last edited by: madf on Wed 2 Sep 15 at 19:44
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Let's say the EU take 5 million and see what the problem looks like then.
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>> 5 million? Or 5 million a year?
The population of Syria before the war was c20 million.
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Population of Syria alone 20m
No. of refugees fleeing Syria 3.3m (say 1.5m fit males)
Largest estimate of ISIS GLOBAL strength 100,000
Is it just me? Why is 1.5m running easier and/or preferable than fighting 100,000? Never mind how many of the 100,000 would desert when the going got rough.
I am deeply cynical about how many of these people genuinely are refugees and how many are economic migrants.
This is an area where the EU falls down. I have no issue with free movement within the EU. I have no issue with including in the EU any country which abides by the rules, meets the standards and contributes.
But if the EU is reducing the inner boundaries then it needs to take responsibility for the outer boundaries.
And that means having some balls, including the UK. If they are genuine refugees then let them in and share the burden across member states. If they are economic migrants that do not meet the criteria then bounce them out. And if that represents hardship to them, then they made the wrong choice.
Specifically the UK should implement ID cards and massively fine anybody who employees an illegal or who pays cash in hand for anything.
And habitual criminals, say repeatedly trying to breach security at a port for example, should be shipped out whatever.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 12:54
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SQ 4 LB
>> Is it just me? Why is 1.5m running easier and/or preferable than fighting 100,000? Never
>> mind how many of the 100,000 would desert when the going got rough.
>>
I would imagine it's because isil are armed and they are not. The former are also one (ish) group bound together in a single organistion, the latter are a large amount of individuals.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 01:14
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>> because isil are armed and they are not.
I still find it difficult to understand why fleeing is easier than resisting.
If the entire of ISIS was in Syria it would still be outnumbered 200 to 1.
It'd have to be a damn good gun.
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SQ 4 LB (again!!)
>> It'd have to be a damn good gun.
>>
Military units don't need the numbers to control situations or influnce civilians in large numbers such as this. Relatively small numbers are sufficient, as shown throughout the ages countless times. It's the mentality of the organised small group vs large numbers of unorganised people.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 01:15
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William the Conqueror managed to conquer the whole of England with an army of around 10,000. The population of England was around 3,500,000 at the time and the Normans didn't have a gun between them.
Bit feeble of the English.
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>>William the Conqueror managed to conquer the whole of England with an army of around 10,000
Do you really understand so little of those times?
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>> Military units don't need the numbers to control situations or influnce civilians in large numbers
>> such as this. Relatively small numbers are sufficient, as shown throughout the ages countless times.
the yanks have never managed it.
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Yeah yeah, Spartans, British squares against Shaka's hordes at Isandlwana, Spanish Armada, Nelson, all that...
A lot of these immigrant cats, or their dads, played a big part in our imperial history. Times move on but we owe proper respect.
No need to exaggerate though or suck up in a tiresome way. Perish the thought.
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There needs to be compassion here. Syria and much of the region is a war zone.
We should and must take refugees it is our duty. The borders we live in are human constructs and we are all people of the Earth.
The only reason we are not taking any serious number is because of political reasons only.
Refugees should want to go home once their country returns to normal.
If refugee camps are required to police this, then fine. Build camps. We are a very rich country compared to most of the world and can afford to build and police such camps, it just takes the political will, of which there is none.
Of course some refugees will want to claim asylum. If they have something to offer, why not accept them. We accept people with monetary wealth, why not people with strong work ethics and skills?
At the same time, hunt down and prosecute the people trafficers. They are murderous scum.
Sorry about the rant, just the inaction from the politicians who should be doing something to alleviate this human disaster is ridiculous. Europe has failed yet another test, in the 1990's it failed to act in the former Yugoslavia, it is failing to act again.
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"Refugees should want to go home once their country returns to normal.
So they can earn $300 a month .
Remember it is very difficult to deport anyone form the UK. Once here, they become a permanent member of the population..(under 39,000 deportation in 2014 - we are estimated to have around 400,000 to 800,000 illegal immigrants).
All those who are in favour will of course be donating 10% of their earnings to a charity which helps immigrants so I won't talk about costs.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 07:01
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>> The only reason we are not taking any serious number is because of political reasons
>> only.
Strange phrase that. "political reasons" What it translates to is "Don't want to lose votes" If the majority of the people made their voices heard and said "we want you to go and rescue those refuges and bring them here to safety" what do you think would happen?
>> Refugees should want to go home once their country returns to normal.
they wouldn't of course.
>> If refugee camps are required to police this, then fine. Build camps. We are a
>> very rich country compared to most of the world and can afford to build and
>> police such camps, it just takes the political will, of which there is none.
Camps? Policed? you know what they would become?
>> Of course some refugees will want to claim asylum. If they have something to offer,
>> why not accept them. We accept people with monetary wealth, why not people with strong
>> work ethics and skills?
quite right - how many of those economic migrants however have them?
>> At the same time, hunt down and prosecute the people trafficers. They are murderous scum.
>>
Yes. go and and kill them. (seriously - we should - its the only thing they understand)
>> Sorry about the rant, just the inaction from the politicians who should be doing something
>> to alleviate this human disaster is ridiculous. Europe has failed yet another test, in the
>> 1990's it failed to act in the former Yugoslavia, it is failing to act again.
We did act in the balkans. It is now a stable and prosperous region
Everyone is up in arms about the dead child on the beach. I know the parents are desperate, BUT they didn't end up in that small boat from a desperate place. That small boat didn't leave from a war torn syrian shore, it left from somewhere relatively safe - that final journey was made to get a to a country of choice.
CHOICE. Too many of them are clearly not concerned with safety, but a destination of choice. The parents killed that child by clearly putting in a place of danger for a Choice.
*What annoys most people is not the scenes of desperate people reaching a place of safety, but people breaking down barriers, acting in a disorderly, illegal and demanding manner, challenging the authorities. Clearly a proportion are NOT those fleeing war in Syria. While those scenes exist, the people of this country will not raise their voices to demand our politicians take them in.
*Blame who you like, the press, the smugglers, some migrants taking advantage of chaos, whatever. That is the situation.
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I am really really confused.
Child dies in Med.
UK offers to take more refugees.
Exactly how does our taking in more refugees stop more children drowning?
Are we going to run a ferry service across the Med? If so, lets direct it straight to the UK .. that will stop deaths by drowning and save long journeys. It will also ensure we have another 2 million refugees wanting to come here.
And if we do nothing about Med crossings, deaths will continue.
Anyone in favour of taking in more refugees might wish to answer. If not, I assume you have no idea.
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Australia is the obvious place. Plenty of room there, and it's no longer necessary to have a criminal record.
Even so, they won't let their boat people on to the mainland. The rationale for that is that it manages the demand, because only those in dire straits will find it attractive. The irony of course is that they are the ones who deserve better.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 10:04
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>> We did act in the balkans. It is now a stable and prosperous region
Hmm. Bit of an exaggeration, there. Bosnia is pretty tense and wouldn't take much to go again. Disaster of an economy, huge social problems. Republika Srpska wants unification with Serbia proper - not popular with Croats/Plastic Muslims. Not long since extensive rioting almost put me off going on my ski trip this year. Kosovo? Nowhere near solved. Disaster zone waiting to happen. Serbia proper? Shadow of nationalism still stalks the place. In fact, they're mostly running the government these days. Risky stuff.
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>> I am deeply cynical about how many of these people genuinely are refugees and how
>> many are economic migrants.
>>
Totally agree (with the rest of your post too, but didn't want to be 'snipped'!).
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>> No. of refugees fleeing Syria 3.3m (say 1.5m fit males)
>>
>> Largest estimate of ISIS GLOBAL strength 100,000
>>
>> Is it just me? Why is 1.5m running easier and/or preferable than fighting 100,000? Never
>> mind how many of the 100,000 would desert when the going got rough.
Do you really believe Syria to be just about (say) 100k ISIS fighters?
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>>Do you really believe Syria to be just about (say) 100k ISIS fighters?
Absolutely not. But that's what the refugees are apparently fleeing. The rest would be economic migrants, by and large.
So how about genuine refugees looked after and shared out. No real choice where they go, just somewhere safe.
Migrants refused entry and told to apply under existing visa application scheme.
Repeated offenders arrested, thrown out and permanently refused entry with or without visa.
ID Cards introduced throughout the EU, especially in the UK.
Employing or paying someone without an ID card becomes an offense with significant financial penalty.
No benefits for economic migrants within 5 years. Refugees entitled to benefits.
Refugees may apply for a permanent visa, but their temporary visa will expire when their home country is regarded as safe once more.
Asylum seekers, which is again another category, are typically suffering targeted threats and may never be able to go home.
Job done. Fair, humane and reasonable. Put the legal platform in place, make sure there is no discrimination and away we go.
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>> Absolutely not. But that's what the refugees are apparently fleeing.
The media certainly give impression that it's all driven by ISIS/ISIL. However, go back to start of Syrian situation and the paradigm was plucky rebels against big bad Assad.
Reality I suspect is a multi-faceted civil war with shifting alliances and outrages committed in all ways and by all sides. Certainly heard reports recently, perhaps on BBC World Service rather than UK mainstream media, that Assad govt continues to bomb areas held by rebels. Unsurprisingly the residents flee and are surely legitimate refugees.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 13:02
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>Unsurprisingly the residents flee and are surely legitimate refugees.
Perhaps.
Let us accept that there are some refugees and some economic migrants of an unknown proportion or split.
Start a process, decide which each is. Have a set of criteria which are either provable, or if not actually provable, at least testable to some level of certainty The refugees may ONLY apply at the point of first entry, although that may not be the country where they are eventually accepted - all countries should share the burden.
Anyone who tries to apply for refugee status at anywhere other than point of first entry is shipped back.
The migrants can be put straight back on a boat back to where they came from and instructed to apply for a visa.
The refugees can be supported and accommodated one way or another.
Anybody repeatedly breaking the law gets shipped back to their own country immediately. Anybody caught working illegally gets shipped back. Preferably along with their employer.
How many people would you have outside Calais then?
Yet I see NO effort from Governments, media, lemmings or anyone else to even admit and understand that there are different groups, never mind do something about it.
And the reason that would not be done? Because the media would print sob stories, a different bunch of Daily Mail lemmings would protest the inhuman treatment and the politicians would not know which way to drop.
That's where the lack of political will comes in.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 13:30
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>> Migrants refused entry and told to apply under existing visa application scheme.
>> No benefits for economic migrants within 5 years. Refugees entitled to benefits.
Pretty much what happens now. Most people subject to immigration control (ie those arriving from outside EU) have a no recourse to public funds condition on their visa. There's also a minimum annual salary thing set at around £30k - making it difficult to recruit NHS staff abroad.
Unsurprisingly, life for EU 'benefit tourists' is not as media would have it either.
>> Refugees may apply for a permanent visa, but their temporary visa will expire when their
>> home country is regarded as safe once more.
There's a 'white list' of safe countries now. Not same thing as safe for everybody - think gay men in Africa.
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European Population densities.
People/sq km:
England - 419
Holland - 408
Wales - 258
Germany - 226
Italy - 205
N. Ireland - 130
Poland - 123
Portugal - 116
France - 105
Romania - 89
Bulgaria - 66
Scotland - 40
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"But the media are just gagging to find a story about the poor, suffering migrants that they can blast all over their front pages"
Rather more quickly than I expected, but look at the reports & social media today!
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"No. of refugees fleeing Syria 3.3m (say 1.5m fit males)"
The thing that strikes me is that, at least according to newsreel footage, overwhelmingly, the would-be migrants are young fit adult males.
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>> So?
>>
So, they aren't going to be healthy family groups if they do settle in Europe.
So, what is happening to all the children, old people and women?
Grossly disproportionate numbers of fit young men do not a balanced community make.
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People are people.
Who on this board would be the first to scream sexism/racism when fit white adult males are positively discriminated against in the work place for instance?
Perhaps these are simply the people most able to make the tortuous journey all the way to Calais? Plenty of women and children in Greece/Turkey it seems. I'm sure a way can be found to get the more vulnerable distributed to other parts of Europe including the UK if you're only worried about the balance of refugees we take in.
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>>Who on this board would be the first to scream sexism/racism
Me, probably. But I scream when anybody is discriminated against.
However, I don't think that was the point. Whenever I've seen refugees, they tend to be a poor looking, bedraggled cross-section of society.
These seem to be largely young males who are not in fear of anything other than not being able to get to the country of their choice.
They do not seem to be law abiding, respectful of others' rights or property, or overall the sort of people we should be desperate to sympathise with and help.
Now, admittedly I have only the news reels and my own experience to go on. I do not particularly trust the media or their reports. However, it is notable.
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>> Now, admittedly I have only the news reels and my own experience to go on.
>> I do not particularly trust the media or their reports. However, it is notable.
>>
>>
I am glad that a few of us are actually waking up to the blindingly obvious fact that these guys have succeeded where Adolf, Napoleon and all the others failed. We have effectively been invaded.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 4 Sep 15 at 10:07
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2000 years ago it was the wops, and 1000 years ago the frogs.
And in return we have invaded the New World and Antipodes, and had a pretty good crack at the Indian subcontinent, southern Africa, and SE Asia.
Nothing new in the world - just ask AC.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 4 Sep 15 at 08:53
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>>I am glad that a few of us are actually waking up to the blindingly obvious fact that these guys have succeeded where Adolf, Napoleon and all the others failed. We have effectively been invaded.
Think yourself lucky you that you live in West Briton, Mr Harley man sir.
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>> Think yourself lucky you that you live in West Briton, Mr Harley man sir.
you sir, live on a different planet.
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>>you sir, live on a different planet.
Not quite yet, the Mars One mission doesn't kick orf for another ten years.
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>> >>you sir, live on a different planet.
>>
>> Not quite yet, the Mars One mission doesn't kick orf for another ten years.
>>
Thought you said you were going to be six feet under in 10 years? Shouldn't someone else have your place on the refugee boat to Mars?
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>>Thought you said you were going to be six feet under in 10 years?
I've had a reprieve ... two pups = mucho walking = another seven years of this damn life.
>>Shouldn't someone else have your place on the refugee boat to Mars?
May I suggest the Chilean, or legacylad, being as they both appear to enjoy travelling to distant places.
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>> I am glad that a few of us are actually waking up to the blindingly
>> obvious fact that these guys have succeeded where Adolf, Napoleon and all the others failed.
>> We have effectively been invaded.
It may conveniently have escaped your notice, that he was talking about those who have not made it into the UK. Just like Adolph and Napoleon.
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>> It may conveniently have escaped your notice, that he was talking about those who have
>> not made it into the UK. Just like Adolph and Napoleon.
>>
It has not escaped my notice that a lot of these men HAVE made it into the UK. Unfortunately a lot of them are now off the authorities' radar and I find that disturbing.
It's all very well saying that there's a process for catching illegals and deporting them. Only a fool would consider that said process is anything like effective.
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>> Plenty of women and children in Greece/Turkey it seems
So perhaps that's where the refugees are. Which makes the bunch in Calais likely to be exactly the type we should neither help nor welcome.
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>> So, what is happening to all the children, old people and women?
No great surprise that young men travel the furthest distance.
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>>
>> >> So, what is happening to all the children, old people and women?
>>
>> No great surprise that young men travel the furthest distance.
>>
Exactly my point, sooty.
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>> The thing that strikes me is that, at least according to newsreel footage, overwhelmingly, the
>> would-be migrants are young fit adult males.
Appears to be case at Calais. Not noticed same issue when boats sink in Med etc.
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It looks as though the Schengen agreement itself is under threat, according to stories in the papers.
Thank goodness we are not part of it
The worry could be, that if other EU states currently under extreme pressure for migrants, take the easy way out and issue them with E.U. passports, just to shift them on.
I think that the UK woud be swamped in those circumstances as the "pavements of gold" theory and our relatively generous benefit system & NHS, would be a huge draw for many of these folk, particulary the economic migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
Infrastructure in the UK is under tremendous pressure as it is with KNOWN net migration being over 300,000 last year.
That is the eqivalent of a major city's population every year.
It is not sustainable.
Why should we accept it?
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Shows our governments have played our membership of the EU just right over the years. All of the benefits and fewer drawbacks than other members. Well played Maggie, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron. So far.
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Link to Breitbart, so you bleeding heart liberals need not click!
tinyurl.com/pc878rq
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I think we can add non raving looneys to that as well.
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>> I think we can add non raving looneys to that as well.
>>
Ah well, I don't think it is looney to want to preserve one's own Nation's integrity, security, culture, living standards etc.
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don't worry it will turn you into a looney reading that garbage.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 13:15
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>> don't worry it will turn you into a looney reading that garbage.
>>
What is 'looney' or 'garbage' about it?
Just because you don't agree with it, it doesn't make it as you've stated.
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>> What is 'looney' or 'garbage' about it?
>>
>> Just because you don't agree with it, it doesn't make it as you've stated.
>>
In my opinion it is. Read as much or as little as you like and draw your own conclusion. My own conclusion is the people who write things on that blog write looney garbage.
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>> In my opinion it is. Read as much or as little as you like and
>> draw your own conclusion. My own conclusion is the people who write things on that
>> blog write looney garbage.
>>
Well in my opinion it covers a perfectly legitimate stance that many people agree with ...me included.
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[Part of ] The problem with that Breitbart article is that it completely confuses a number of different things;
Immigrants from outside the EU - already all controls in place, its a visa process. But fair to say it is a lot of people.
Immigrants from inside the EU - and they don't know how many that is.
Illegal immigrants - these are not refugees, asylum seekers or either of the above. The process is already in place to ship them out.
Refugees etc - where we SHOULD help.
It gives you no facts about the split between the above, and in fact is misleading, I suspect intentionally.
Then it gets all unpleasant about where people are born and presents emotive and misleading statistics. Again, intentionally I suspect.
Then in amongst all of that it puts some seemingly reasonable, perhaps actually reasonable, comments which appeal to many people. Those those people don't understand how they are being mislead and manipulated.
It is dishonest. And manipulative. And unpleasant.
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>> It is dishonest. And manipulative. And unpleasant.
>>
I have had a re-read.... and can confirm I don't see it the same way.
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>>.. and can confirm I don't see it the same way.
I said it was dishonest, manipulatve and unpleasant. I didn't say it wasn't very clever.
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>> I said it was dishonest, manipulatve and unpleasant. I didn't say it wasn't very clever.
>>
Shame I'm not 'clever enough' to see through it then.
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If Europe accepts these illegal immigrants, then
1. They will not live happily ever after. They will soon demand money, job and will do riot if their demands are not met.
2. This will set a precedence and will encourage more such people trying to enter Europe.
If they are turned away, that will discourage other illegal migrants to adopt same route.
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>> If Europe accepts these illegal immigrants, then
>>
>> 1. They will not live happily ever after. They will soon demand money, job and
>> will do riot if their demands are not met.
>>
>> 2. This will set a precedence and will encourage more such people trying to enter
>> Europe.
>>
>> If they are turned away, that will discourage other illegal migrants to adopt same route.
Clearly you've not heeded yesterday's advice to move on from the Mail as your source of information etc.
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>> Clearly you've not heeded yesterday's advice to move on from the Mail as your source of information etc.
While I agree that Daily Mail journalism is not the highest standard, but now all newspapers are reporting same stories, pictures, facts etc.
And some of my statements are just common sense :)
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Which particular statement in Movilogo's post may have come from the Mail?
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>> Which particular statement in Movilogo's post may have come from the Mail?
The whole thing reeks of the simplistic stuff punted by the Mail to its eager readers.
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"The whole thing reeks of the simplistic stuff punted by the Mail to its eager readers."
........ and a post that reeks of Graudiadistic righteousness.
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Without an influx of fit young men and their families, the UK is going to go down the toilet due to the unsustainable demands and expectation from the incresingly old farts who have time to post on this site....
(except me of course!)
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 21:34
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"Without an influx of fit young men and their families,"
....... and, in order to make that sustainable, the fit young men and their families will have to be sent back to where they came from, before they also get old. Good thinking!
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>>and, in order to make that sustainable, the fit young men and their families will have to be sent back to where they came from, before they also get old
Don't worry, by the time they get old they'll be working to 70 and it will be back in some form of balance again.
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"...... and, in order to make that sustainable, the fit young men and their families will have to be sent back to where they came from, before they also get old. Good thinking!"
Ah, good - someone gave me a frownie for that observation. Could I ask the frownie-donor what their sustainable solution is for looking after our ageing population? I stress the word 'sustainable'.
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>> Without an influx of fit young men and their families, the UK is going to
>> go down the toilet due to the unsustainable demands and expectation from the incresingly old
>> farts who have time to post on this site....
>>
>> (except me of course!)
>>
I complain about unacceptable abuse of the elderly by an old fart...:-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 21:35
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Perhaps it's time for me to do a world-weary been there done that there's nothing new under the sun post, and for Ted to do one of his leering lecherous ones.
We can all be role models for the young.
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Anyone think we should take 1 million## new citizens who cannot speak English, are destitute and will undoubtedly contain a sprinkling of ISIS trained fighters looking to kill some Brits..( They have promised it several time).
If they do, may I suggest they can all donate about 10% of their salary (every year) and part of their house to house them - as we have a housing shortage.. as well as a budget deficit.
If you seek to accept more immigrants - and force the rest of us to do so, you should be prepared to pay for it before anyone else.
If you are not prepared to do that - or cannot - you should say so . And then try to convince us to accept them.
And when ISIS kill some Brits as they will, you can attend the funerals, comfort the relatives and pay for their pensions.
If you want more immigrants then you should pay. Period.
## because once they start coming, they will not stop. And they will never leave..
And yes I am totally serious..
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Most new citizens aren't killers. Most countries get on fine with them. If we are worried about isil fighters infiltrating then we you argue not to let anyone from all sorts of countries for any time at all.
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I think the ISIL killers will find it easier to hide in a group of refugees than masquerading as bona fide tourists.
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Madf, you been taking classes on internet trolling?
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>> Madf, you been taking classes on internet trolling?
No. Madf is openly and honourably racist. Hadn't you noticed Lygonos?
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In May I met with some of the refugees arriving on Lesvos. We tried talking/communicating but English was not their language and neither was Greece.
From what a local told us, some of the refugees brought to Lesvos thought they had crossed a river and were in Italy!
It is hard to describe how they looked but they were certainly relieved to be somewhere safe. The elderly couple I refer to above were from Afghanistan.
What is interesting is the mix of the refugees we saw. A real cross section of very young and very old. Lots of families with children.
When you look at footage of TV of Calais... they aren't looking like the sample of refugees I saw on Lesvos. Mainly young adult males. Presumably because these are the young, fit 'refugees' without families who manage to make it through Europe.
I know that in May about 100 per night arrived on Lesvos. Not it is 1,000! Eric Kempson on YouTube has some interesting posts. When we were there, there were busses across the island from Molyyvos to Mytilene. Then they stopped. Then they started again.... and now apparently because the camps are full it's stopped again. There is nothing at Molyvos for them apart from the goodwill of locals and tourists (we helped with provisions in May).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSld5F7vjOY
Driving from Molyvos to Mytilene takes maybe 1.5 hours.... try walking that in the heat. And there's some hills on the way.
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Spot the ISIL member? I think these are all genuine?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKGIReBWuI
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 19:32
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>> A Hungarian viewpoint.
>>
>> www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/03/hungarian-pm-migrants-are-mostly-muslim-and-this-threatens-christianity-in-europe/
If you're bothered about Christianity in Europe a few hundred thousand mixed religion refugees are not in your to 20 issues.
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Why is a man who decries all religions of any type suddenly turning into a defender of the faith?
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>> Why is a man who decries all religions of any type suddenly turning into a
>> defender of the faith?
If you look at my intro, I said it was a Hungarian viewpoint.
I am not Hungarian!
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>> >> Why is a man who decries all religions of any type suddenly turning into
>> a
>> >> defender of the faith?
>>
>> If you look at my intro, I said it was a Hungarian viewpoint.
>> I am not Hungarian!
So why did you post it? as a non Hungarian?
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 3 Sep 15 at 22:31
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Because this is a thread about the migrant crisis, with which Hungary is pretty seriously involved.
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"Because this is a thread about the migrant crisis, with which Hungary is pretty seriously involved."
The report was quoting from the Hungarian prime minister, a man who I would guess, is fairly important in Hungary. Maybe he has looked around him and seen that multiculturalism is a tricky, if not impossible, thing to balance; maybe he has noted that, on his doorstep, muslims can't live with other muslims, let alone with other beliefs; maybe he wants peace for his country.
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>>muslims can't live with other muslims
A bit like our Catholic and Protestant muslims in Ulster (and Glasgow...)
Anyhoo - here's some required reading -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints
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"A bit like our Catholic and Protestant muslims in Ulster (and Glasgow...)"
Quite.
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>> So why did you post it? as a non Hungarian?
>>
Debate?
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>> >> So why did you post it? as a non Hungarian?
>> >>
>> Debate?
From roger? NAh. dont make me laugh.
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>> A Hungarian viewpoint.
>>
>> www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/03/hungarian-pm-migrants-are-mostly-muslim-and-this-threatens-christianity-in-europe/
>>
Not that I'm going to click on the link, but does anyone else see the delicious irony of someone complaining about the infinitesimal possibility of a religion originating in the Middle East being replaced by a religion originating in the Middle East?
Ignore religion and one day it will go away.
Hungary was a noted hotbed of fascism in times gone by and an enthusiastic supporter of Hitler - leopards and spots spring to mind. Not all Hungarians of course, but there is a strong undercurrent of racism, intolerance and bigotry there, as there is in a lot of Eastern Europe sadly. We're better than that, aren't we? Isn't that one of the things that makes Britain great?
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" Isn't that one of the things that makes Britain great?"
Yes - Britain is quite rightly known as a non-racist, tolerant nation. That's why I'm not sure that it's a good idea to import folks who are rather intolerant. Things have been pretty quiet recently on the religious confrontation front because we have become largely atheist - our churches aren't exactly full to overflowing, are they?
And of course, as I've said before, we are already overcrowded.
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Haywain, the refuges are the people fleeing the intolerance of ISIS and the rest (Taliban, Al Q etc). They are, one the whole, tolerant, non-fundamentalist, ordinary people looking to give their families a chance of life itself, let alone anything else. Listen to the bloke who lost his wife and two kiddies on that dinghy yesterday. Have a look at the poor bleeder. Does that look like a family of Islamic zealots bent on "turning" Britain? No, he's a Kurd, the people who should be our best allies in the Middle East.
Did the influx of Vietnamese boat people contribute to a Buddhisimiszation or Communismization of Britain? Not that I'm aware of.
As said before, have a word about religious tolerance in Belfast and Glasgow.
Glass houses. Stones.
Last edited by: Alanović on Fri 4 Sep 15 at 10:34
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Obviously terribly sad. That little boy lying dead on the beach having drowned trying to escape the terror of his homeland with his parents. My heart goes out to him and his family.
But, what did his Father do? Went back to his home in Syria to bury the lad.
I cannot imagine what it must be like to lose a child in those circumstances, but I am a bit confused by the seeming contradiction of his driven need to flee and his willingness to go home.
If nothing else it does seem to reflect on the risks the man had his son face.
What will he do after the burial? Flee again?
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34150364
The bodies of drowned Syrian boy Alan Kurdi and his family have been taken back across the Turkish border to the Syrian town of Kobane for burial.
The father of Alan Kurdi was allowed to enter Kobane from Turkey with the coffin of his three-year-old son.
The boy's mother and older brother are also being buried.
Pictures of the child's lifeless body on a beach in Turkey sparked worldwide outrage at the plight of people fleeing the war in Syria to get to Europe.
A convoy of vehicles with the bodies crossed into Kobane from the Turkish border town of Suruc, officials say.
*Image caption* The bodies arrived in Syria to be met by a crowd of journalists, mourners and well wishers
Alan drowned along with his five-year-old brother Galip and his mother Rehan while trying to reach the Greek island of Kos.
Alan's father Abdullah said that shortly after their boat left Turkey it was hit by waves and the captain swam off. His family drowned despite his desperate efforts to save them.
Images of Alan's body being recovered from a beach near Bodrum caused an outpouring of sympathy for the plight of those fleeing Syria's civil war and criticism of European governments for not doing enough to answer the crisis.
Thousands of migrants have died this year trying to reach Europe by sea.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 4 Sep 15 at 10:41
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>> >> What will he do after the burial? Flee again?
Maybe he doesn't care for his own fate so much now he has no children to protect. Maybe he'll stay in Syria and fight now, which didn't seem a great option when he had a family to consider.
Who knows. I'm certainly not in any position to question his motives or actions.
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Al,
I am totally with you on the need to support refugees. Neither do I care about religion or nationality or race.
However, we already have a process to deal with other migrants - its called a visa process.
We need to stop confusing the two.
Obviously we only have the news reports to go on, and we all know what they can be like. But sadness to one side, it doesn't sound right.
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FM, I agree broadly about the distinction which is being missed between economic migrants and refuges. I really do.
But I can't see how anyone from a city in Syria which is under constant threat and attack from ISIS can be considered an economic migrant rather than a refugee. This family were from Kobane. It's not the kind of place where you sit on your veranda sucking your pipe and wondering if you should leave all this behind for a couple more quid in Europe. If I was there, I'd be running away faster than Usain Bolt.
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>> This family were from Kobane. It's not the kind of place where you sit on
>> your veranda sucking your pipe and wondering if you should leave all this behind for
>> a couple more quid in Europe.
When leaving Kobane, they could easily be a genuine refugee.
Once they get to Turkey, they are in a safe place, are they not?
So you're in Turkey, think that's a bit rough, so let's go to Greece, bit perilous in the open boats with the kids, but it's a better life in the EU.
Once in Greece, let's go to Germany or Sweden.
At what point do they change from refugees to economic migrants?
I can only speak for myself..but... I have tremendous sympathy for their plight and wish the strong countries of the world could properly unite to defeat ISIS in whichever way was needed, so these people can live in peace in their own countries. However, we cannot or should not have an open door policy here (or the rest of Europe IMO, but that is up to them), we should collectively act to make their own countries safe.
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we should collectively act to make their own
>> countries safe.
>>
I agree but part of that is foreign aid and that's about as popular in this county as a cup of cold sick.
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>> I agree but part of that is foreign aid and that's about as popular in
>> this county as a cup of cold sick.
>>
It would be considerably more palatable if it went to the right places. I think the average man in the street could come up with a sensible list.
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>> It would be considerably more palatable if it went to the right places. I think
>> the average man in the street could come up with a sensible list.
Having knowledge of foreign aid it's a tricky business where it goes. Its very long term. With respect to the man in the street i doubt it. It's very much wheels within wheels.
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>> Having knowledge of foreign aid it's a tricky business where it goes. Its very long
>> term. With respect to the man in the street i doubt it. It's very much
>> wheels within wheels.
>>
India?
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>> What about India?
>>
IMO the average Joe in the street could work out that India doesn't need our Aid.
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>> IMO the average Joe in the street could work out that India doesn't need our
>> Aid.
>>
All depends on what we are trying to achieve with that aid.
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>> But, what did his Father do? Went back to his home in Syria to bury
>> the lad.
>> I cannot imagine what it must be like to lose a child in those circumstances,
>> but I am a bit confused by the seeming contradiction of his driven need to
>> flee and his willingness to go home.
>>
>> If nothing else it does seem to reflect on the risks the man had his
>> son face.
he clearly thought it was worth the risk for a short term risk to him to go back to bury him. And understandable he'd want him buried there.
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Perhaps.
Although the photographs of the many "mourners and well-wishers" seemed incongruous.
Seriousy, what are they actually fleeing? What do they fear will occur if they stay?
- Possibility/fear of injury or death?
- Religious oppresssion?
- Poverty ?
How much of it is economic migration en masse?
Because I am damned sure it is not 100% refugee, so I'd like to know what we're dealing with here.
However high my sympathy for a refugee fleeing with his family is, its pretty damned low for an economic migrant who would put his family through that.
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Seriousy, what are they actually fleeing? What do they fear will occur if they stay?
>>
>> - Possibility/fear of injury or death?
>> - Religious oppresssion?
>> - Poverty ?
>>
>> How much of it is economic migration en masse?
>>
>> Because I am damned sure it is not 100% refugee, so I'd like to know
>> what we're dealing with here.
Why are you so sure? Why can it not be the top two of your list above,?
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>>Why are you so sure? Why can it not be the top two of your list above,?
Sorry, I wasn't very clear.
I genuinely wonder what the refugees are fleeing. I wonder where it is on the range of fear of death at one end and mild discomfort on the other.
I also believe that of all the people fleeing, 100% of them are not refugees as I understand it, some of them are simply migrants.
I have no idea of the split. Not a clue.
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>> Obviously terribly sad. That little boy lying dead on the beach having drowned trying to
>> escape the terror of his homeland with his parents. My heart goes out to him
>> and his family.
But they weren't.
They had already escaped 'the terror of his homeland'.
They were in a safe place - Turkey. His father effectively killed that boy by taking him from a safe place to a preferred safe place.
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Westpig, Duncan, if you consider Turkey a safe place for a Kurd you want your bumps feeling. There's been a war going on between the Kurds and the Turkish government since before George Dubya got a boner for Saddam.
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>> Westpig, Duncan, if you consider Turkey a safe place for a Kurd you want your
>> bumps feeling. There's been a war going on between the Kurds and the Turkish government
>> since before George Dubya got a boner for Saddam.
>>
The Turks don't go around wantonly killing all Kurds like the Nazi's did to many. Turkey is a considerably safer place than somewhere where ISIS is going to invade.
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>> The Turks don't go around wantonly killing all Kurds like the Nazi's did to many.
>> Turkey is a considerably safer place than somewhere where ISIS is going to invade.
>
Turkish military have been using war against ISIL as an excuse to up the ante in their conflict with Kurds. Significant numbers of Kurdish civilians have died. The bar for refugee/asylum is of course set far lower than Nazi style genocide.
While Kurdish ethnicity is not, of itself, sufficient grounds for asylum from Turkey it may be if applicant was active in Kurdish independence movement.
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>> And of course, as I've said before, we are already overcrowded.
>>
And another thing, I don't give a stuff if you or anyone else thinks we're "full". We need to save these people's lives and deal with the situation after. There are ways and means if all us rich countries co-operate.
I'm not prepared to see our government watch people drowning because a few ill-informed Mail readers think we're "full". We're nothing like full and we face a declining ageing population.
"We're full" is just cover for "you're different and I don't like you because of that".
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>> >> Madf, you been taking classes on internet trolling?
>>
>> No. Madf is openly and honourably racist. Hadn't you noticed Lygonos?
>>
>>
If racist is looking out for one's own country and people. I am racist. About 99.99% of the world is just like me..
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>>If racist is looking out for one's own country and people. I am racist
Its not. But you are.
They are different things.
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(This may not end up below madf's post of 18:10 as intended).
The mayor of Bristol has come up with an interesting proposal which gives folks a perfect opportunity to put their money where their mouth is.
"Bristol's mayor is urging people to find a spare room in their homes for refugees, as the council says it hopes to take some of the "desperate"."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-34150371
I expect many here have a spare room or two, along with adequate resources to provide a reasonable level of support themselves. Would anyone here who is proposing that we should take more consider doing this? (From memory, Zippy, CGN, Alanovic and Bromps at least were clearly in that camp).
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 5 Sep 15 at 08:25
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Of course, anyone who refuses is a racist ........
"I don't give a stuff if you or anyone else thinks we're "full"."
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>> I expect many here have a spare room or two, along with adequate resources to
>> provide a reasonable level of support themselves. Would anyone here who is proposing that we
>> should take more consider doing this? (From memory, Zippy, CGN, Alanovic and Bromps at least
>> were clearly in that camp).
And being unwilling would prove what exactly?
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Yeah the man has a point :-)
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>>I expect many here have a spare room or two, along with adequate resources to provide a >>reasonable level of support themselves. Would anyone here who is proposing that we should >>take more consider doing this? (From memory, Zippy, CGN, Alanovic and Bromps at least were >>clearly in that camp).
My family started taking in refugees in 1978. Two young Iranian lads who had to escape as they were Catholics. Some of their family had already disappeared. They stayed about 6 months and I was about 12 at the time. They were 18 so it was quite exciting to have two older lads chatting about pop music and helping me with my airfix kits and football in the back garden using the oil tank as a target (to Dad's annoyance :-).
Not got a problem with it at all.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 5 Sep 15 at 16:07
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I likes this from Dodgers link to the Daily Wail:
‘He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars. General good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite and flatterer.’
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Migrant Crisis - Roger.
