RP's post prompted me to make another thread about uni. Did you go and wish you hadn't or was it worthwhile. Or did you not go and wish you had?
For me i didn't go, i thought about it for a bit but the cost of it put me off and i wasn't sure if it would be of any use. I can't say i regret it either. I ended up doing alright.
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By the time I got to end of sixth form I'd had a bellyful of full time education. Applied for a few courses but at time, 1978, plenty of big employers took on 'management trainees' at 18 with two/three A levels. I secured such a post in the Civil Service so my uni offers were not needed and given my grades I'd probably have had to re-apply through clearing anyway.
Never missed it until my last post. Prior to that I'd worked in wholly operational roles with a mix of a handful of grads but mostly people who'd come 'through the ranks' from the clerical grades. The last place though had policy functions as well as an operational side. The Policy Advisers to whom I worked were all grads, including one from Winchester School/Cambridge. I became acutely aware that, while I can write perfectly good business letters and reports the language of policy and the associated research process is different and I never really got to grips with it. I suspect a degree would have equipped me better.
In the event staff changes meant my role became one of operational assistant to the office head and I suffered no detriment. It could easily have been different.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 22 Aug 15 at 14:03
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I hated school with a vengeance. Probably because I was one of the thicker ones at Bradford Boys Grammar. And we didn't play soccer, only rugger! Was offered various Uni places ( geography & economics) but decided not to take them up, and three of my best friends went into estate agency work. Smart move, started as office juniors, did evening classes and retired years ago in their early fifties, but they were grafters. After the premature death of my father I was running the family business in my early twenties and as I had worked in it since the age of 14 during school hols for beer money ( I began drinking at an early age) it would have closed had I been to uni.
Never regretted it for a moment. I did day & evening classes for a ' Business Studies' course but the tutors were pretty clueless, and the qualifications did nothing to progress my ' career'.
If you are set on a certain career, then a uni qualification is necessary, but few know what direction they want to go in at that age.
I know someone who gave up a good job to go to Uni in her late twenties, got a First, and now, three years after getting her degree, is still looking for a post where she can use it.
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I missed my chance at 18 but later got a well-paid job anyway. I began to regret it, chiefly because the job offered little intellectual stimulus. I chucked it at age 39 and embarked on my higher education, then getting a reasonably-paid but far more interesting job in teaching.
My retirement is far more interesting as a result.
The OU and other "distance learning" courses can be taken in spare time. In an orthox uni, depending on your age, you might be a bit of a fish out of water with new undergraduates but it didn't bother me. For tasters, Google FutureLearn for free short courses designed for this.
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Never had the chance to go to uni, orphaned at sixteen, reluctant guardian would never countenance it.
Apprenticeship with PO (now BT) who supported me through college to get a C&G full tech.
Probably couldn't have done better, although a degree (and better attitude) may have promoted me further.
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>> Never had the chance to go to uni, orphaned at sixteen, reluctant guardian would never
>> countenance it.
>>
>> Apprenticeship with PO (now BT) who supported me through college to get a C&G full
>> tech.
>>
>> Probably couldn't have done better, although a degree (and better attitude) may have promoted me
>> further.
>>
Ditto, just done 42 years and never really regretted it, met some great people both workmates and customers.
Sometimes regretted not getting the uni experience but overall think I got more out of the University of Life; I certainly wouldn't have met guys who'd flown Spitfires in the Battle of Britain; a Mosquito pilot who'd been shot down over France joined up with the Resistance and had the Gestapo put a price on his head and wore the Croix de Guerre given to him by de Gaulle; a rear gunner in a Lancaster who'd done 45 missions and drunk beer for all his colleagues who never made it home; or the guy who was a mine clearer and was one of the first on the beaches at Anzio. Between 16 and 19 I did a lot of growing up, very quickly, as I realised what these guys had done and learnt respect for them and from them as they always saluted one of the managers in the yard as he'd been a Major on D-Day......
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I tried the distance learning thing, ended up jacking it in, i didn't find it interesting enough when it stated to get hard. Felt I'd be better off doing things i enjoy rather waste time going something, that although career related i simply didn't enjoy.
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I have always had a suspicion i should not have bothered with uni. Fortunately for me I did not amass a mountain of debt, but I think three years at work instead of studying would have put me in roughly the same place career wise that I started at after uni.
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My 2 brothers & I went to Uni 45-60 years ago & made a success from the opportunity - 1 owned and 1 currently is a partner in his company.
Our kids have all gone to Uni - 2 Drs, 1 Vet and 3 engineers. Medicine is a guaranteed, well paid job for life, unless you do something very stupid. Engineering is providing greater financial rewards than the NHS but is very,very demanding & in one case 55-60 hours/week and on call 24x7 - something the NHS does not demand.
If a boy/girl is ABLE, and chooses the right course, it can set them up for life. Debts YES, but they can be repaid out of the much larger salaries.
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I think having the mentality of enjoying/wanting to study is important as well. Probably more important than having the brains.
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I was too clever for my own good at school; had a retentive memory and was chronically lazy with homework, all of which came round to bite me on the backside when O-levels came around. Went on to FE college which didn't suit me, so went into the army and obtained City & Guilds.
I've little or no contact with my former classmates; from what I can gather I've done worse in life than some and better than others as far as career achievement is concerned. Therefore I've no idea whether I'd have benefited from a university education or not; probably the latter since it was the army's discipline which finally forced my reluctant nose to the grindstone, and uni would not have provided that.
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>>since it was the army's discipline which finally forced my reluctant nose to the grindstone,
I suspect that I should have joined the forces. I regret not trying it.
No. 1 has stated her intention to do so. I hope she follows it through.
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> I suspect that I should have joined the forces. I regret not trying it.
>>
>> No. 1 has stated her intention to do so. I hope she follows it through.
>>
What is she interested in doing in the forces?
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>What is she interested in doing in the forces?
That is unclear. She is an unusually bright young girl, she runs at an average of 94% across all her subjects at school. Even more exceptional when you consider that she is doing it in her second language. At her school in England she is consistently either 1st or 2nd in all subjects.
However, she enjoys and prefers the more physical activities when given the choice - shooting, hunting, fishing, skiing, fencing, riding etc. etc.
In her opinion the Army will give her the opportunity to satisfy both in an environment she thinks she'd like.
She's 13, what does she know? But I am very comfortable with the interest and the "plan". We shall see what happens.
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>> >What is she interested in doing in the forces?
Friend of ours, their daughter is very sporty, just got seven A*, is going on to sixth form, and intends to get a university place sponsored by the army and wants to go on and do physiotherapy.
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She does sound bright, i didn't know they went to school in two countries. Well the army does have the chance to join various clubs and
compete for the army at various levels. Much more so if you've got a head start in that sport before she joins. Mind you she's got plenty of time to decide.
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>> I suspect that I should have joined the forces. I regret not trying it.
>>
I suspect you'd have got in, but I don't think it would have been a match, looking at your replies further down the thread at bromptonaut. I think it would have been far too rigid for you. That's just the way it is, but who knows?
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Bit it may have made me calmer, tolerant and accepting. I mean it.
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Sorry, urgent call caused me to abandon that post. I thought I'd cancelled it.
I am not sure if it would have been a match. I wish I'd tried though.
I was so ill as a child that I never really learned to play with others, no opportunity. And by the time I was ok, perhaps 9 or 10 ish, it was set in stone. This was doubly unfortunate because I come from a long line of men who don't play well socially, so that just made it worse.
I do wonder if the military may have changed that. If I could have got on with it, I'm pretty sure I would have enjoyed it. And looking back at what would have been "my time" in the army, It'd have been interesting.
If I'd have had a difficulty it would have been the idea that you did stuff a dumb way because that's how the rules said to do it.
As for my replies to Bromp; I didn't like the tone of the doubt nor the implication, especially from someone who quite clearly had no knowledge of the subject. Its my job, I'm good at it, cast aspersions on that at your peril. I doubt it would be any different in the army.
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> If I'd have had a difficulty it would have been the idea that you did
>> stuff a dumb way because that's how the rules said to do it.
>>
That's what i meant and the army is chock ablock full of such rules !
I doubt it would be any different in the army.
>>
Apologies if it was seen as a dig, it wasn't meant to be.
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>>Apologies if it was seen as a dig, it wasn't meant to be.
Thanks, but not necessary, I didn't see it as a dig.
> If I'd have had a difficulty it would have been the idea that you did
>> stuff a dumb way because that's how the rules said to do it.
>>
>That's what i meant and the army is chock ablock full of such rules !
My worst nightmare. I did a difficult contract for the MOD at one point; I spent a lot of time rocking back and forward on my chair with my fingers in my ears and humming to myself.
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Some jobs require a degree. So if you're going after one of those, you have no choice. However, and awful lot of jobs require a degree do so unnecessarily solely because those responsible for employment are too far up their own importance.
So many people apply for every job, mostly due to the visibility of everything to everyone that the internet brings, that employers may/will use a degree as a simple way of cutting down the number of CVs they have to read.
An employer will look at how someone has spent their life between School and the interview. University is one acceptable way, there are others. The others are more difficult to understand and far too may recruiters are idiots.
Personally I have always favoured people with great A Level results who have then gone off and done something constructive and different. In my experience, university students are worth naff all until about two years after their degree is finished. And perhaps not much even then.
Because of the lowered standards and the fact that going to university is the only measure of success understood by the media, an awful lot of people go there who shouldn't. Consequently, a lot of those who graduate with degrees are loads less useful than one might hope.
For my own career, I have never, not once ever, in anyway at all, found a degree qualification useful or helpful.
At the time I hated school/college/uni, I hated the entire education system, I believed my teachers/lecturers to be idle, unpleasant, ineffectual idiots with little grip on the real world (most of them were), and I disliked being told what to do. I was miserable and so was a lousy student. And I mean lousy with a capital 'F'. I was lucky that I have a good memory and don't lose concentration under stress so I did better than I deserved and a lot better than others who deserved more.
Nonetheless, all that said, it is most unlikely that a degree or the years in university will harm your career prospects or progression.
In which case, in the absence of a better idea, it would seem to be the thing to do.
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Game's changed...we've had six graduates on Government work schemes at the Office. Only a couple of them seem to have found any decent work...Unless you're going with a big time plan to get a particular career, I would think long and hard about going to University these days.
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I wouldn't have changed much about the way my life panned out. Worked hard made a reasonable pile of dosh. Work for "fun" now really, feels a little like too much hard work last few weeks (supervise staff - not my cup of tea at all).
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>> I wouldn't have changed much about the way my life panned out. Worked hard made
>> a reasonable pile of dosh. Work for "fun" now really, feels a little like too
>> much hard work last few weeks (supervise staff - not my cup of tea at
>> all).
Management, the one thing I've sworn never to do again.
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>>Management, the one thing I've sworn never to do again.
I love it. There are so many s*** managers in UK industry, or any other country for that matter, that I revel in doing it well and helping the staff feel and work better.
I cannot tell you how many problematic groups, people, companies etc that I have taken over and then done little more than manage the people effectively and achieved great results.
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I manage the call takers and volunteers 2 days a week - others manage them on other days. Trouble is we all think we are doing it the right way...:-)..
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I have no idea how splitting management amongst several people can be expected to work. Dumb idea.
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>> I manage the call takers and volunteers 2 days a week - others manage them
>> on other days. Trouble is we all think we are doing it the right way...:-)..
So you're an ASS then :-P ?
Quite interesting in our Bureau how different people do it in different ways.
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I'm with RP. Friends children who went to uni to get a specific degree to follow a career plan have done well, although not many at 17/18 yo have a career plan. Strangely, they were all in the medical field, and they knew what career they wanted from being in their early teens.
I also have friends whose children had no career plan and just took a subject because it sounded 'fun'. What's that all about? History of Art FFS. Media and Theatre studies. And if you must go to uni, don't try and stay at home commuting to uni on a daily basis. For two people I know that ended in tears within 12 months. Bonkers thinking.
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. What's that all about? History of Art FFS. Media and Theatre
>> studies. And if you must go to uni, don't try and stay at home commuting
>> to uni on a daily basis. For two people I know that ended in tears
>> within 12 months. Bonkers thinking.
>>
I know someone who did history of art, there's some good jobs with it. Looking at all sorts of expensive art and identifing it for rich people, the big auction houses, helping out on expensive trade publications and books. Quite a bit of money in it so I'm told.
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>> What's that all about? History of Art FFS. Media and Theatre
>> studies.
It's a mistake, IMHO, just to think of a degree in straight vocational terms. As you say not many 17/18 year olds really know what career they want and of those who do many will fall by the wayside or just realise it's not for them. A degree is a qualification in its own right. It shows the holder had the intellect and determination to complete the course, to research and argue points and, in their final year, to undertake and write up a proper piece of research.
History of Art will be hard work - the field from prehistory to Tracy Emin is vast. Similarly Media and Theatre, at least if done in so as to have historical as well as practical - on stage - aspects.
One of the best policy writers I worked with had a first degree in music. Even some of the lawyers did an arts subject at Uni before going to Law School then opting for either Solicitors profession or the Bar.
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>> History of Art FFS.
My middle daughter, a very clever girl and hard-working too - not a chip off this old block - read History of Art at the Courtauld Institute. She works for a film production company.
She was taught Italian at the Courtauld by an old Oxford friend of mine, a clever and sardonic woman who bursts into giggles whenever my daughter's name is mentioned.
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I went and got a decent degree. Sadly I haven't really done anything with it but that is for another thread. It really helped in the early years of my business but now I haven't really done much with it. I am 33 years old soon and that the stage of my life when I am thinking about a career change and having that degree means I have more options.
I do have basic adult teaching qualifications but I have decided it is not an avenue I want to go into.
My sister got a 1st class from a prestigious university, got a job as a £12k admin assistant, but an internal job came up which required a degree and she has had a very good job for the past 7 years as a result.
As it worth it? It depends on so many factors personally now with the tuition fees I would not bother. Unless you are doing something like engineering it is just too much of a risk.
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Left grammar school as soon as I could after my 15th birthday with no qualifications at all and got an apprenticeship as a compositor on the local paper.
Started OU in 1982 after colleagues kept saying 'stop mouthing off about anybody can do it when you do the new graduates list every year and prove you can do it yourself'. Finished in 1988 with an upper 2nd two years early. By then I was running a production shift and the editor invited me to switch to journalism. My union, the then NGA (the only source of financial support I ever had) gave me their blessing. I never looked back and managed eventually to escape the rat race years ago.
I would, however, advise my grandsons to think very carefully before involving themselves in what now passes for a higher education system.
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I went to Uni - did Chemical Engineering & Biotechnology from 1993 at the now defunct UMIST. I went into an engineering job after graduation, and it has been good to me. I even got a grant in the first year I think! I would counsel my sons (currently 6 and 3) only to go if they wanted to do a job that required a degree - although we are in Scotland where there are (currently!) no tuition fees.
I really enjoyed my time there - played hard, but also worked hard - despite getting a 1st, I came bottom of the class, but then of the more than 20 people that started the course only 2 of us graduated - so either the course was v hard; or the teaching was lousy.... I prefer the former version of course!
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There needs to be an alternative to university, because there isn't and the university stream is full of "average" a UK degree has become devalued.
I went to a technical college, and there got an HND. Set me in place for a fulfilling and lucrative career and comfortable (so far) retirement.
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>>There needs to be an alternative to university,
I agree.
But in our world of media driven opinions, Tech Colleges and the like are seen as the second best alternatives for people who failed to get into Uni, 6th Form College etc. etc.
We need more focus on skills which, whilst not manual in the way they were 50 years ago, are certainly more manual than sitting in an office.
A child who goes to Tech College to study Engineering should be able to feel as good about their choice and achievement as a child who goes to University to study art.
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>> A child who goes to Tech College to study Engineering should be able to feel
>> as good about their choice and achievement as a child who goes to University to
>> study art.
And just as valued by society, because the value to the economy is just as valuable.
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>> There needs to be an alternative to university,
There is one. It's called 'getting any old job', 'going into the family business' or 'being undecided and sinking into a state of neurotic depression'.
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>> History of Art at the Courtauld Institute. She works for a film production company.
And as well as ramrodding three nippers aged 7, 13 and 20, is doing a PhD on (I think) image, representation and messages in the old US West. Pony express is rather her sort of thing but I suppose it's mostly about railway, telegraph and small-town newspapers.
Her husband has pulled a muscle in his back and is looking agonized, poor fellow.
The nephew fired up his pizza oven earlier and there has been an alfresco pizza supper, with bits of mackerel caught the other day by the 7-year-old, smoked by the nephew and run briskly through the pizza oven. All so good that I wish I ate more these days.
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>>It's a mistake, IMHO, just to think of a degree in straight vocational terms
Kind of.
I think I would prefer to say that straight vocational terms are just one of the valid ways to think of a degree.
Vocational motivation is just fine. As is purely interest driven. Or anything in between. I think the only thing that matters is that the person should want to do a degree, be capable of doing a degree, and be willing to stick it out.
The one problem with free education is that is about how much it is valued by some students. I don't agree with fees, but they do have that one benefit of focusing children and parents.
And fees were inevitable once we decided that that every child will eventually go to uni.
I sometimes recruit for jobs that graduates apply for. As a Partner in E&Y I could only recruit graduates. So if someone wanted to be a Big Six (at that time) consultant then they HAD to do a degree.
But mostly it didn't matter what that degree was. An art degree could be recruited as easily as a maths degree. It was only if it absolutely came down to everything else being equal and only one place left that what the degree was woudl matter.
Outside those roles where a degree was compulsory then I used to find that a degree, or a perfectly valid reason for not having a degree were equally acceptable.
What wasn't acceptable was a lousy reason for not going to university and dossing for three years instead.
By the way "I didn't want to go to University and so I did XXX instead" was just fine.
University graduates are pretty good at mindless, initiative-less consulting assignments. They are frequently outstanding at research papers, strategy papers and similar.
They are typically rubbish, in their early years at least, of actually making a difference as a standalone consultant out in the field.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 22 Aug 15 at 21:26
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>> University graduates are pretty good at mindless, initiative-less consulting assignments. They are frequently outstanding at
>> research papers, strategy papers and similar.
>>
>> They are typically rubbish, in their early years at least, of actually making a difference
>> as a standalone consultant out in the field.
Not sure how far this stuff is really mindless, initiative-less etc even if it looked that way from a more senior perspective. I'd be terrified by somebody who was seen as able to make a difference as a standalone consultant in their twenties. You need some experience doing research and strategy papers first. never mind learning to deal with people.
Is that what politicians call bottom?
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>> Not sure how far this stuff is really mindless, initiative-less etc even if it looked
>> that way from a more senior perspective.
Market and industry research, upon which many a project or strategy is based, is exactly that. Of course, conclusions and recommendations are then made and included, but those are not done by the graduate.
The graduate will be often enough involved in that conclusions and recommendation space that I would expect him to become able to perform that part in time to come. 2 or 3 years, probably.
>>I'd be terrified by somebody who was seen as able to make a difference as a
>>standalone consultant in their twenties.
Well then you'd spend a lot of time terrified outside the civil service. If you ain't good by your late 20s, then you're not going to be. A generalisation with exceptions, for sure, but mostly true.
>>You need some experience doing research and strategy papers first.
.**********
>> Is that what politicians call bottom?
I have no idea what that means.
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>>You need some experience doing research and strategy papers first.
>
>.**********
I disagreed strongly.
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Ideally research, in commercial, business and governance fields should not be based on "experience" - it should be uncoloured in any way. Experience usually means "business as usual"
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>>Ideally research............
Correct. And thus graduates are ideal.
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>> >> Is that what politicians call bottom?
>>
>> I have no idea what that means.
I understand it to mean some mix of charisma, gravitas and ability to manage people.
Not seen term for years but somebody used it last week in the Labour leadership thread which was what reminded me.
Probably came to fame in descriptions of Tory leadership contests in the sixties - succession to Edn and/or Macmillan? At time leader was not elected but 'emerged' after discussion amongst the whips and party hierarchy. May have been RA Butler who was eliminated for lack of said characteristic.
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>> what politicians call bottom?
>> I understand it to mean some mix of charisma, gravitas and ability to manage people.
Those qualities are needed Bromptonaut, but I understand 'bottom' to mean the ability to soldier on when things become difficult.
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>> >> Is that what politicians call bottom?
>>
>> I have no idea what that means.
>
>I understand it to mean some mix of charisma, gravitas and ability to manage people.
I don't know how I keep missing out on these things. I know I've been out of the UK a lot over the years, but as far as I was previously aware the only thing I'd missed was The Spice Girls. Over the last year or so it has become apparent that chunks of the language have passed me by as well.
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>> the only thing I'd missed was The Spice Girls. Over the last year or so it has become apparent that chunks of the language have passed me by as well.
Sorry if you know this FMR, and were joking, but 'bottom' in the sense of courageous determination against the odds is Victorian, or Edwardian at least. Nothing whatsoever to do with TV comedy.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 23 Aug 15 at 15:36
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It was I who used the word 'bottom', in "The real problem highlighted by Corbyn's lead is that none of the other three has either charisma or bottom."
I supposed it to be an old word - I'm not given to throwing neologisms around unless they fill a void.
Perhaps I used it wrongly - I suppose the nearest synonym for what I meant is 'substance'.
For example, listening to Kendall the other day, it was 100% motherhood and apple pie - she is in favour of "championing every child", "better services for older people", "improvements in the NHS", and against "anti-social behaviour". I don't suppose any of her rivals is against those things.
The septics might say "Where's the beef?"
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I agree Manatee, 'substance' is near the mark.
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Oh b******s. I did a snooty post but I'm not going to do it again. Damn the pink stripe of death!
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>> Oh b******s. I did a snooty post but I'm not going to do it again.
>> Damn the pink stripe of death!
FFS AC I've told you this twice (or is it 3 times?) in the last month or so - you don't lose your post when your login times out. You just login and hit 'post' again. Pay attention!
:)
Last edited by: Focusless on Sun 23 Aug 15 at 20:25
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I know Focusless, but it's just as well really. People wouldn't have liked it.
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>> I don't know how I keep missing out on these things. I know I've been
>> out of the UK a lot over the years, but as far as I was
>> previously aware the only thing I'd missed was The Spice Girls. Over the last year
>> or so it has become apparent that chunks of the language have passed me by
>> as well.
Don't be despondent, I am still in the uk and I have never heard it used like that. The only time I heard that phrase was to indicate someone was stuck in role and couldn't be prised out. It wasn't a term of praise or endearment.
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>>Not sure how far this stuff is really mindless, initiative-less etc even if it looked that way from a more senior perspective
By the way, I object to the implication of that statement.
You may not be sure, I know.
Equally, I am not viewing from "a more senior perspective" unable to understand what is happening.
You are translating the ridiculous civil service view on progression and seniority to the real world where it simply would neither fit nor work.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 22 Aug 15 at 22:28
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>>You need some experience doing research and strategy papers first. never mind learning to deal with people.
And finally; So you would have someone who has never done it, telling other people how to do it?
And they say the Civil Service is inefficient? Who'd a thunk it.
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University degree combined with drive and enthusiasm must be a top ticket in my opinion for a job.
Daughter finished uni and is in Nursing.My sisters lad is very succesfull.After his degree worked for various news papers and is a director of a radio advertising company in the Netherlands.Down to earth lad.Live is what you make of it with or without education and you need luck.
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>>It's a mistake, IMHO, just to think of a degree in straight vocational terms
Vocational qualifications are job-specific by definition. Arts qualifications involve higher order transferable skills which are more widely applicable. This was brought home to me by the boss of a market research agency for which I did a job. I said I supposed he was looking for candidates with stats degrees to employ as data analysts. No way, he said, he wanted people with good arts degrees as he needed their creativity.
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Never considered Uni and in reality it wasn't on offer.
I had to do a year in the 6th form to re-take Maths 'O' level as I dipped that first time (because I was a lazy sod and the discipline at my bog standard comprehensive was truly dire i.e. non existent).
Ended up with 5 'O' levels having failed considerably more than I passed... because I did no revision (looking back I consider it a dreadful waste and wish I'd been in a school that had some semblance of discipline).
Turned out I didn't need my 'O' levels anyway, because I joined the police cadets, which required 4 'O' levels inc Maths/English... and if you hadn't had your results yet, you could take an entrance exam and get in that way...which is what I did. You then joined as a Constable in an almost automatic move from the cadets.
It was a good career for me, although I absolutely detested the 15 months I did in the cadets, because of the army type barracks stuff; marching, spit and polish and endless physical activity. Sheer b***** mindedness and willpower kept me there, because I didn't want to admit defeat and go home with my tail between my legs.. and.. I could see the goal at the end of it. Glad I stuck with it.
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>> for candidates with stats degrees to employ as data analysts. No way, he said, he
>> wanted people with good arts degrees as he needed their creativity.
Probably why the polling organisations bucked up so badly at the last election.
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This would be very funny, it it wasn't soooo true.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
I've been in this meeting.
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Not my area at all but I loved this bit;
What's stopping you from doing it?
Err geometry
Just ignore it.
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Pitiful, but so accurate.
Of course, there are incompetent idiots as engineers too, they typically want to build what they want irrespective of the needs and goals, but that is typically quite easily managed by a competent Project Manager.
The Consulting Partner, Senior Manager (wannabe partner), the Customer Procurement Manager, and the Customer Expert are just so common it isn't funny.
Its been a 30 year campaign of mine, and I think I'm not winning.
One thing I will do for free, for anybody, anywhere, ever; if your consulting relationship is going wrong then call me; I will investigate, tell you why and tell you how to fix it. It'll just cost you an airfare, no more.
Free. For anybody. Always. No strings.
I hate rubbish consultants. And rubbish partners are the pits.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
One I've seen before, I bet you've seen something similar?
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And it's happening here right now in the MoD, the army have spent the last 10 years + and a £1 bn buying nothing for their armored vehicles.
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
>>
>> One I've seen before, I bet you've seen something similar?
Yup!!
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>> One thing I will do for free, for anybody, anywhere, ever; if your consulting relationship
>> is going wrong then call me; I will investigate, tell you why and tell you
>> how to fix it. It'll just cost you an airfare, no more.
Excellent. I'll act as your engagement manager. (and charge a fee for your services - which will cost me nowt)
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>> This would be very funny, it it wasn't soooo true.
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
>>
>> I've been in this meeting.
Me too.
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Out of genuine interest Bromp, how has that sort of meeting occurred for you?
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I fell asleep at that sort of meeting too often and wasn't invited again.
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I used to oversleep and turn up later and later. It wasn't good for my reputation but I soon stopped caring. Couldn't really stand corporate life and hated having to 'manage' people above all things.
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>>Couldn't really stand corporate life
That isn't corporate life, that's the prevalence of incompetence, which is sadly everywhere. I like the corporate life. I like it a lot.
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It was corporate life FMR. As you say, incompetence is everywhere, even in corporate life. But why do you think there wasn't any corporate life in the sixties? I can assure you there was. I was there. You weren't.
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As any ex-industry mature student will probably testify, corporate life is a well-oiled machine compared with education. (The back stabbing is far worse to boot.)
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[sigh]
>>But why do you think there wasn't any corporate life in the sixties?
I didn't say that.
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>> [sigh]
>>
>> >>But why do you think there wasn't any corporate life in the sixties?
>>
>> I didn't say that.
It was different. I jumped into corporate life in the early 70s, and from what I can tell it hadn't altered much since the 60s or 50s. Corporate life has changed much since then. Or in my view it has - Values have changed, the outlook has changed, and, again in my view, has suffered for it.
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>> I've been in this meeting.
>Me too.
Why? Why did you let it happen*? I have never been in this meeting.
___________________________
* The being in the meeting, that is. You had control over your life. You could have gone to do something else. In no world where I have worked would somebody try to tell an expert how to do something.
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>>in no world where I have worked would somebody try to tell an expert how to do something.
Lucky you. That doesn't mean it hasn't / doesn't happen though.
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>>Lucky you. That doesn't mean it hasn't / doesn't happen though.
Indeed. Incompetence is widely available. But why choose to work in such an environment?
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>>But why choose to work in such an environment?
I guess there are a couple of aspects to a response to that;
Have you always walked out on any role where something has happened you don't like / agree with? I wasn't lucky enough to be able to afford such high principles. Neither do I usually walk away from bad situations just because I don't like them.
As it happened, I eventually because senior enough to stop it happening, at least where I was involved.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 24 Aug 15 at 10:59
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>> >>in no world where I have worked would somebody try to tell an expert how
>> to do something.
>>
>> Lucky you. That doesn't mean it hasn't / doesn't happen though.
It happens.
You have the client. Like all clients they want the rainbow, they want to see all the colours you can see in the rainbow, and they want to see the ones you can't see in the rainbow. And they expect to find the pot of gold.
because
Client Manager of Rainbow Inc has sold them on the Rainbow, with all the colours they can't see visible and the pot of gold, even tho all they told him was they didn't like a grey sky.
The Rainbow Architect knows that the rainbow contains all the colours in the spectrum, so visible or not they exist, he will lay out the plans for the rainbow. Pot of gold? he's never seen it but been told its there, so if he gets the rainbow right, it will appear in theory.
Project manager of project rainbow has been given the deliverables from the architect. Rainbow with all the colours of the spectrum visible, pot of gold at each end. (note: project creep already) All he needs is a view of the sky, rain and sun. (so the architect tells him)
He calls in his vista & terrain resource manager, who finds him the correct place. He calls in his meteorological manager who sets him up with times for sun and rain. Can the project manager get the free vista time and the sun and rain to match up? no he can't so it all has to wait for a year till:
Bingo. Get in there it all happens.
Sort of; Rainbow? yes. Colours? yes, All visible? well not really he can only see a few BUT physics says they are there so they exist. Pot of gold? Well its not at the end we tested but we know its there so it must be at the other end. Project delivered? 75% yes - chuck it over the fence to the Rainbow Service manager.
Who now has to keep the Rainbow in place for the next 7 years, even tho it can only exist in certain circumstances, has all the colours but some of them no-one can see even tho they do exist, and never has had a pot of gold at either end.
And all because the client meeting at the start never had the agenda (and all meetings have to have an agenda right?) "can we build a rainbow" because that is far too negative. We have to be positive, bullish, reach for the impossible.
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I couldn't follow the rainbows but I'm sure you enjoyed writing it. I've no doubt that it happens; endlessly. But it's up to the Expert to (1) be trusted by the partner so that the partner accepts it isn't possible; (2) to say 'no, it can't be done.'
Take either of those factors out, and you have spectacular incompetence. It's an environment where there's no point in working. You might as well not bother doing the project. It is soul destroying for the implementation team, and it won't work in the end. It will be implemented by the implementation team who will all get bonuses based on implementation on time, and won't be around to see the results.
That's a cause of the banking crash of 2007; people being incentivised to lend money; rather than the more logical people being incentivised to lend money to enterprises that would pay it back.
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>> I couldn't follow the rainbows but I'm sure you enjoyed writing it.
Far too abstract for you I know. Its what happens when you give people with art degrees proper jobs.
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I thought you said you didn't have a degree, let alone an art degree?
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>> I thought you said you didn't have a degree, let alone an art degree?
The scenario, not me. I though people with degrees were able to work stuff out?
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I think he'd already said that he couldn't.
>>"I couldn't follow the rainbows"
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That's weird. I could have sworn it was art subjects which specialised in the understanding of the abstract. Hopefully folks studying to design nuclear reactors are a bit more capable in the art of reality.
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>>But it's up to the Expert to (1) be trusted by the partner so that the partner accepts it isn't possible; (2) to say 'no, it can't be done.'
Of course it is up to the expert to be trusted by the partner. But if he is not?
Of course it is up to the partner to trust the expert, but if he doesn't?
They are different types of people, measured and rewarded by different metrics, in some areas metrics at odds with their job. Many on both sides are incompetent although for frequently totally different reasons.
You're either on a wind-up or you work in a most unusual industry.
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>>You're either on a wind-up or you work in a most unusual industry.
The latter, I guess. Tax.
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I went to university and studied some near pointless garbage which has had no bearing whatsoever on my subsequent earnings or working life.
I loved it and cherish the memories. Brilliant years.
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I went to Cambridge, loved every minute of it, and I wouldn't be me without it, and I wouldn't be in my current job either. (Thought the current job is currently boring me witless.)
>> I'd be terrified by somebody who was seen as able to make a difference as a standalone
>>consultant in their twenties.
What rot. You can be a qualified solicitor, barrister or accountant by 24. In a big City practice/at a good set at the Bar you will have had extraordinary levels of exposure by 27 and will be well versed in countless areas.
Not everybody spends their lives following the dead-dull route of the school-entry civil service where it takes two years to go from counting paperclips to counting pencils.
As to the OP; if it ain't Russell Group, don't bother. Even if it is Russell Group, unless you're a three-As type, don't bother. Unless it's a vocational course you want to do in order to pursue a career in that field - medicine, engineering, vet, research, and architecture seem to be the obvious ones - just read what you fancy. University is there to feed the mind.
It's interesting that the big accountancy firms are now recruiting people as school leavers and sending them to their own University (e.g. EY: Lancaster) to do a course built by the firm.
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Accountancy is good at Lancaster. We were drinking there last Thursday afternoon, and didn't run out of money.
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If you refer to the Bailrigg campus, it is a ghastly place to live as a student.
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I went to Cambridge. Mine was the sort of school where getting to Oxford or Cambridge was the whole point . Failures went to other universities.
It was hard work but also dead easy, in a peculiar sort of way. I had no idea why I wanted to go - family tradition, school ethos, no other options available, I just went along with the system and found myself with a scholarship.
I don't think I took proper advantage of the benefits, and got a poor degree, but in those days it bought entry to a career structure a lot higher up the ladder, and it postponed almost indefinitely ever having to decide what I actually wanted to do.
My own children now have very clear ideas what they want to do, and are are actually choosing universities they want to go to.
The sum total of my own career's master's advice was
"You ought to try for Cambridge" to which I replied "OK".
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>>>> As to the OP; if it ain't Russell Group, don't bother.
I've just realised that my University was Russell Group. Although I graduated before Russell Group existed. I don't think by my stage in life anyone much cares to be frank.
As I'm typing this someone has just approached me to ask if I have any paper clips (my dept orders the stationary in this office). I think perhaps I could have done better in my career.
Having attended an excellent University hasn't exactly guaranteed me position and riches. It's been the wetware which has been mainly responsible for my not-exactly-stratospheric career to date, it's not terribly ambitious or materialistic. Although I grant you I'm above the UK average in terms of income and assets.
Now he wants sellotape.
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>>Now he wants sellotape.
Perhaps you could show him how to store it.
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"Wetware" ?
Surely not yet more of the damn language I've missed out on.
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Wetware. The stuff which operates the hardware and software, and is usually the biggest point of failure.
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Wetware. The clothes you're wearing after you've had a golden shower?
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uni or not - Bromptonaut
